Need ideas for a versatile character

[theonesin]

I'm a decent 3.5 vet, so I'm well aware of finding one's niche in a party. However, I've put myself into too narrow a niche that I'm not really having fun now.

I'm playing in a campaign with a DM who's new to 3.5(but not to DMing in general) and we're just level 2. I was playing a Karmic Strike Battle Sorcerer, so my spell and skill list is poop. My one gimmick is getting hit in combat to hit more often, but this is a more RP-focused group, so sometimes we can go a whole session without combat(like this last session). And even if we do get into a lot of combat, my build's survivability is lower due to lack of resources to keep me alive(we have a kinda iffy cleric). There's an entire RP reason I want to switch out the character too, but I won't go into that(mostly no consistency with personality, which is my fault).

I know at level 2 there's a limit to how much variety one might have, but I really think I need something less focused on such a tiny niche. Whether lots of skills(Factotum), or spell versatility(wizard), I'd like to play something where I can get more constant use from my abilities.

Any recommendations?

[Blackhawk748]

Binder, you can switch out pretty much your whole ability set from day to day, or even in the middle of the day if you take Expel Vestige, also they are a lot of fun to RP

[Extra Anchovies]

Binder, you can switch out pretty much your whole ability set from day to day, or even in the middle of the day if you take Expel Vestige, also they are a lot of fun to RP

Seconded. Either this or Incarnum, and I'm of the opinion that although Incarnum has more options in general, the Binder is more versatile than any one particular Incarnum-using character.

[theonesin]

Funny enough, but I've actually played a Binder and an Incarnate/Totemist before(though I forgot about Binder when I made this topic).

I enjoyed the Incarnum character before, but I ended up with a very specific build that kinda pigeonholed me to the same melds all the time, which kinda killed the versatility idea(though I do like the flavor of Incarnum). I'd be very iffy about playing one with this DM though, as since he's new, I don't want to over complicate things by introducing an entirely new and obscure subsystem. Even in my other(and main) DnD group, I'm the only one who's even touched Incarnum in the first place.

Binder, again I really liked the flavor of. I remember having the opposite impression of: not really knowing what to do with my versatility. Maybe I just needed better idea of "how" to play one(though again, no one in my groups really played one. Binder would be easier to introduce to a new DM though, I think).

[nolongerchaos]

Factotum is pretty good for versatility, and you can throw in Chameleon if you want even more

[geekintheground]

I enjoyed the Incarnum character before, but I ended up with a very specific build that kinda pigeonholed me to the same melds all the time, which kinda killed the versatility idea(though I do like the flavor of Incarnum). I'd be very iffy about playing one with this DM though, as since he's new, I don't want to over complicate things by introducing an entirely new and obscure subsystem. Even in my other(and main) DnD group, I'm the only one who's even touched Incarnum in the first place.

thats my #1 fear when thinking of playing either incarnum or binder. not using its versatility well enough...

as for a suggestion, i 2nd factotum. theyre fun and useful.

[Val666]

Warlock/Chameleon e.e

[Fax Celestis]

Feat Rogue. It's the good part out of fighter with actual other things to do. You don't have to deal with shenanigans for qualifying for sneak attack (since you don't have it), and you can burn your feats on combat tricks (like Combat Reflexes + Evasive Reflexes + Sidestep Charge). Sure, your BAB will be a point lower, but that's really not that big a number in the long run. Plus you're swimming in skill points, so pick up UMD or social skills.

See if you can trade away your trapfinding and disable device to pick up Track and Swift Tracker (the reverse of a ranger ACF in Dungeonscape) or if not trade it for Poison Use from the DotU ACFs or a Disguise Self SLA from EoE. Then maybe take Spell Reflection instead of Evasion (from CompMage) and see if your DM will let you trade off your trap sense for the Barbarian ACF in the same book: trades Trap Sense for an AC bonus vs. spells.

It's practically playing a new class.

With a very permissive DM you could even do all this on a psychic rogue chassis, modifying the feat progression accordingly of course.

[Blackhawk748]

Binder, again I really liked the flavor of. I remember having the opposite impression of: not really knowing what to do with my versatility. Maybe I just needed better idea of "how" to play one(though again, no one in my groups really played one. Binder would be easier to introduce to a new DM though, I think).

Well the general recommendation is to jump into Knight of the Sacred Seal asap, i just designed a Bandit Lord that was a Knight for Paimon. With the Knight you'll always have that one Vestige bound and then you just mix and match as required.

So lets go with the Paimon guy, you have high Dex, wonderful, theres at least three Vestiges that compliment that from a pure combat view: Andromalius, His Sneak attack + Dance of Death = Pain, Malphas, Sudden Strike + Invisibility + Dance of Death= More pain, and Leraje, Paimon gives you +4 Dex and Leraje makes you proficient with a Bow. Or you could bind Naberius and get more Skills or bind Buer and be a swashbuckling medic.

............. i need to play a Binder

[Extra Anchovies]

Alternately, Mystic Ranger is pretty great for versatility; Ranger spells are a nice mix of buffs and out-of-combat support, they're full BAB (and still get combat styles, albeit delayed), and if you really want an animal companion pick up Wild Cohort (oddly enough, a Wild Cohort will actually be a good deal stronger than the Ranger's half AC progression).

[sideswipe]

archivist, like having access to all divine spells? me too. if you can find the same spell 2 levels lower then cleric on some really obscure list.... then its 3 levels lower :smallsmile:

[Jowgen]

If damage isn't your focus, I can personally recommend Dragonfire Adept, which can be quite versatile if you pick your feats and invocations right. The class really shines at lower levels, and is not too hard to keep useful at higher levels. You can either be a utility tank that is nigh un-killable at low-mid levels (Mineral Warrior Dragonborn Mongrelfolk recommended), or an excellent party-face (Cha is your 'casting stat').

Having a 1/round breath weapon is pretty handy in itself, even if you only have the standard fire version. Never be caught without your weapon, option to destroy stuff by breathing on it, completely ignore AC for combat purposes, etc. Pick up Entangling Exhalation to get great battlefield control with a bit of damage, and a convenient way to keep that shady NPC you're supposed to capture from running away. As you level, your breath weapon only gets cooler with the ever expanding list of possible breath effects. Depending on your DM, you might even get access to metabreath feats via some shenanigans.

The real action, however, come from your invocations. You don't get the widest selection, but you will get to use them at will, meaning you can be as liberal as you want. There is never a situation where detect magic or identify are a bad idea to use just in case. Getting a fat +6 to your social skills with a least invocation and/or at-will charm monster at level 4th level with a lesser invocation, ought to let you handle just about any social situation. If you feel an invocation has outlived its usefullness, you get the option to swap them out (it never specifies you're limited to swapping just one) every few of levels.

Also, DFA's are a LOT of fun to play. :smallbiggrin:

[Feint's End]

Well the general recommendation is to jump into Knight of the Sacred Seal asap, i just designed a Bandit Lord that was a Knight for Paimon. With the Knight you'll always have that one Vestige bound and then you just mix and match as required.

So lets go with the Paimon guy, you have high Dex, wonderful, theres at least three Vestiges that compliment that from a pure combat view: Andromalius, His Sneak attack + Dance of Death = Pain, Malphas, Sudden Strike + Invisibility + Dance of Death= More pain, and Leraje, Paimon gives you +4 Dex and Leraje makes you proficient with a Bow. Or you could bind Naberius and get more Skills or bind Buer and be a swashbuckling medic.

............. i need to play a Binder

Yeah Binder are pretty awesome. I recall playing one once. What I did was putting my highest stat in dexterity and going Swordsage at first level (afterwards Binder into KotSS). Picked up Shadowblade and Proficiency with a Spiked Chain and Weaponfinesse at third. Made for a very potent melee for some levels (especially when bound to Paimon) with all the versatility goodness on top.

Once I convinced a hostile gnoll tribe into a ritual duel to settle the manner (oh Naberius ... so great). Got buffed up by my group and took down a Fighter one level higher (note that this was at third level so Fighters were still relevant ... kinda) in 2 rounds. DM was quite surprised to say the least.

Fun times.

edit: on a sidenote DFA is a good idea too if you haven't played one yet though they are more limited than Binder / Incarnum. BFC and utility in one character.

[theonesin]

I actually have played a DFA(and its invocation cousin the Warlock), and enjoyed it. I'd almost think it'd be a wee bit too powerful, as this party isn't necessarily that optimized, and the DM is still new to building 3.5 encounters. I've ran into a situation with another new DM where just Entangling Exhalation tended to break encounters. Yet I'd feel if I DIDN'T have that, I'd be gimping myself a lot.

Anyway, I am strongly considering Binder now. I'm actually toying with the idea of making it a Changeling, where I'd have a different "default" form depending on which vestige I bound(though this would mean I might get less use out of Naberious's Disguise Self, assuming I'm thinking of the right vestige). Might get a little tricky when/if I get to the point of binding two vestiges at once, but that's what half-races are for.

[Talionis]

Spellthief 6 into Chameleon. You have most of the abilities of a Rogue, you steal abilities and Spells.

My guy was preoccupied with stealing as many different spells as he could and then writing them into his spell book. He used the skill trick mosquito bite to steal spells from people without them knowing it.

Spellthief is actually very narrow in a lot of campaigns so it's power level should be low enough to not make you over run newer players. But with tons of spells known you should be a great resource to your party. At high levels you can be challenge yourself to stay relevant with Full Casters.

[Fax Celestis]

Yeah, the neat thing about Spellthief is that it automatically adjusts it's power level to the campaign. High magic campaigns, it's a power class. Low magic, weak class.

[theonesin]

I actually tried playing a Spellthief once. I like the idea of it, but it's practical use hasn't been great(granted, I never got to take it very high in level). As far as this campaign is concerned, it's not that it's low magic, so much as "the DM is new and might not bother much with Vancian casters to have things to steal from".

[Troacctid]

How about a theurge of some kind?

I'm personally a big fan of the incarnum theurges (Soulcaster, Sapphire Hierarch, and Soul Manifester). They're easy to qualify for with a one- or two-level dip, and they give you lots of passive and at-will bonuses to play around with while still being a caster. And incarnum is powerful enough at low levels that you don't need to worry about being a late bloomer, as is often the problem with theurges. Also, Share Soulmeld is an amazing feat, although on the downside, the rules for it would almost certainly confuse the heck out of your DM.

Anima Mage is quite nice as well and again only requires a one-level dip.

[Fax Celestis]

I actually tried playing a Spellthief once. I like the idea of it, but it's practical use hasn't been great(granted, I never got to take it very high in level). As far as this campaign is concerned, it's not that it's low magic, so much as "the DM is new and might not bother much with Vancian casters to have things to steal from".

You are forgetting that you can act as a force multiplier. You can steal spells from willing targets with a touch.

[Waker]

Knowing what the rest of the party is might help us make more specific suggestions as well.
Others have suggested Factotum into Chameleon, but if this is a somewhat combat-lite campaign, how about going into Spymaster? With your access to every skill and Cunning Knowledge, you could easily disguise yourself as anyone you wanted.

[theonesin]

Well, the party consists of a Monk, a Bard, a Warblade, a Cleric, and a Scout(soon to join though).

[Vogonjeltz]

Well, the party consists of a Monk, a Bard, a Warblade, a Cleric, and a Scout(soon to join though).

Sounds like you're missing a serious arcanist. If you want something with flavor, how about a wizard who goes into Wild Mage, that can be fun :)

[TheCorsairMalac]

Since you're still low level you could try throwing some alchemy items around. The party rogue will love you if you throw him a smokestick now and then to help him hide in combat. Tanglefoot bags are pure evil at low level too.

"When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail." Maybe you'd have fun using your abilities even when they're not the best solution... or wise to use. 8D

[DMVerdandi]

Since there is already a cleric, have you thought about possibly druid?
It's got great benefits.
-Full spell list with all spells known at level up
-Wild shape (as well as it's sick upgrades/acfs)
-Animal Companion
-other various abilities

An interesting thing to do would be playing as an aberration wild shape druid, and fluffing as a cult initiate of the lovecraftian universe. All of the space gods are essentially elementals, so that works with the druid spell list.
Essentially, what I am trying to say is that you need not play as a granola muncher just because you are a druid. Better if you don't really. I really dig the predator druid kind of feel. Like a creature blessed by the spirit of the savage, raving mad beast rather than moonflower. It would rule to play as a berserker.

[theonesin]

Sounds like you're missing a serious arcanist. If you want something with flavor, how about a wizard who goes into Wild Mage, that can be fun :)

Well, we HAD an arcanist: my old Battle Sorcerer. It's just kinda really gimped magic-wise.

As far as Wizard goes, one thing I was considering was the Elf Generalist/Domain Wizard. I figured if I wanted someone versatile, it might be fun to play a Wizard who doesn't have any banned schools. What does Wild Mage do though?

[Fax Celestis]

As far as non-broken wizard PrCs go, I'm a big fan of Dracolexi: centered around power words. Pretty cool, often underlooked.

[theonesin]

Hmm, any particular thoughts on Anima Mage(someone briefly mentioned it earlier)? With my strong leaning towards playing a Binder now, coupled with the party's need for an arcanist, a PrC that does both might just be exactly what I need.

[Troacctid]

You lose one level of casting to enter the prestige class, as well as two feats that you were probably going to take anyway (Improved Binding plus any metamagic feat). In exchange, you get full progression for both spellcasting and binding, as well as other perks, including free metamagic 3/day and bonus spell slots if you make a good pact.

If you enter as a Wizard, you end up with casting that's still on par with a Sorcerer, plus the ability to bind vestiges up to 6th level (and two at a time).

[nedz]

If you want an interesting arcanist consider a Beguiler. Lots of skill points, which you don't have to spend on stealth, and lots of interesting spells for Crowd control or to replace skills like Climb, Hide, Move Silently, etc. Just don't expect to do damage in combat, they're not very good at that.

[Fax Celestis]

If you want an interesting arcanist consider a Beguiler. Lots of skill points, which you don't have to spend on stealth, and lots of interesting spells for Crowd control or to replace skills like Climb, Hide, Move Silently, etc. Just don't expect to do damage in combat, they're not very good at that.

Well, unless you do a beguilerbarian.

[nedz]

Well, unless you do a beguilerbarian.

That would be quite mad, also MAD. None the less Beguiler doesn't add anything to the combat potential, other than the occasional spell. Now the Unseen Beguiler can at least sneak.

[Fax Celestis]

That would be quite mad, also MAD. None the less Beguiler doesn't add anything to the combat potential, other than the occasional spell. Now the Unseen Beguiler can at least sneak.

I dunno, my wife played a hilariously effective pixie barbarian/beguiler. She'd invis herself, then cast rage and use Rage. Yeah, it wasn't the be-all-end-all of optimization, but at a med-op/casual table, it works fine.

[Extra Anchovies]

Seconding Anima Mage. Troacctid pretty much said it all, though, so I have little more to contribute.

[theonesin]

I think I'm gonna go for it and make an Anima Mage then. Any particularly good/fun builds for one? Sorcerer would synergize better stat-wise, but then I'd feel I'd lose the versatility that I was after in the first place.