Spot vs Listen

[heavyfuel]

Simple question: Spot vs Listen.

Which skill is more useful?

[Vogonjeltz]

Simple question: Spot vs Listen.

Which skill is more useful?

Listen IMO. You can gain more information with listen than spot

[ericgrau]

Depends on the DM. A lot of DMs make you roll a spot check to see your own shoes and you pretty much need to max it out whether it is a class skill or not. Or you're blind. But otherwise by RAW listen is more useful. Besides the usually "notice stuff" applications, it lets you find the square of things you can't see. Usually at DC 20. That's really useful with the myriad of concealing effects in D&D. By RAW spot is mainly for noticing creatures that are using the hide skill, which are far less common. And by RAW hide requires cover or concealment so it usually only applies to the ambusher not the ambushee.

[Hamste]

No size benefit to move silently makes me like listen plus invisibility is more common than silence which means it is less likely for people to just say no. Of course if they aren't moving you don't get the listen check but that is a small price to pay.

[jiriku]

Depends on who you are. Spot will give you line of sight to an enemy, which is necessary to target them with spells. Listen will give you information about enemies even if they are not within your line of sight. There are more abilities that defeat Spot checks, but the ones that defeat Listen usually defeat it absolutely, while those that oppose Spot can often be overcome by having a ridiculously high Spot bonus.

[Greenish]

Spot. It tells you what and where and who (works against Disguise). Encounters begin when you Spot the enemy. Humans are visual beings with unexceptional hearing, so the DM is more likely to focus on what you can see (and that'll probably be more actionable anyway).

[Vogonjeltz]

Depends on who you are. Spot will give you line of sight to an enemy, which is necessary to target them with spells. Listen will give you information about enemies even if they are not within your line of sight. There are more abilities that defeat Spot checks, but the ones that defeat Listen usually defeat it absolutely, while those that oppose Spot can often be overcome by having a ridiculously high Spot bonus.

Vision extends until it's blocked, granted there's rarely no obstructions, but still.

[OldTrees1]

Listen can detect things easier. Spot gives more information when it detects.

When facing a sneak, you want one person with listen(early warning is usually a higher DC, offset by listen being easier) and everyone has spot(to be able to target the enemy more accurately). An all listen group will face total concealment(50% miss chance). An all spot group will be ambushed. The hybrid team is best.

[Greenish]

Vision extends until it's blocked, granted there's rarely no obstructions, but still.The range penalties make it hard to see anything you'd need a Spot check for at longer distances, though.


When facing a sneak, you want one person with listen(early warning is usually a higher DC, offset by listen being easier) and everyone has spot(to be able to target the enemy more accurately). An all listen group will face total concealment(50% miss chance). An all spot group will be ambushed. The hybrid team is best.Of course, it's often the same PC who has both skills up.

[Duke of Urrel]

I agree with EricGrau that the dungeon master makes a big difference. There are definite rules for starting encounters with Spot checks, but none for starting encounters with Listen checks. Some dungeon masters sometimes make use of Listen checks to determine when encounters begin, and others neglect this option, because no rule requires it. When I am the dungeon master, I grant Listen checks in place of Spot checks 50% of the time when an encounter begins in terrain that significantly limits visibility, such as a thick forest. If your Listen check succeeds against a creature that is neither using Hide skill nor otherwise totally concealed from you, I allow you to react instantly by looking in its direction, and when you do, I assume that you instantly spot the creature. Surely, not every dungeon master will do this.

It is worth reminding that Listen skill works around corners, through Obscuring Mist, and even through some opaque barriers, whereas Spot skill does not. This is fully in accord with OldGreen1's OldTrees1's very true observation that "Listen can detect things easier. Spot gives more information when it detects."

[OldTrees1]

Of course, it's often the same PC who has both skills up.

You misunderstand. I said (assuming the 4 man team), the Rogue should have Listen & everyone should have Spot.

[Greenish]

You misunderstand. I said (assuming the 4 man team), the Rogue should have Listen & everyone should have Spot.Meh, the druid or the monk are probably better sensing monkeys than the rogue, and not everyone has the skillpoints for Spot.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I dunno, my Rogue/Warblade/Wizard has the best Spot and Listen checks in our group....which includes a pure ranger and a rogue with maxed ranks, though having a hawk familiar does help tons.

[OldTrees1]

Meh, the druid or the monk are probably better sensing monkeys than the rogue, and not everyone has the skillpoints for Spot.

My example of rogue assumed the 4 man team(Ftr, Rog, Clr, Wiz). The principle though, is the best sensor should have both senses.

In the case of Druid, they can have fewer ranks due to wild shape bonuses to senses.

Finally, if Fighters have enough skill points for spot, who is lacking the skill points?

[Curmudgeon]

Most of the time Spot is better. You can use Listen to detect things you can't see, but you can also throw a bag of flour so it smashes on the ceiling and dusts everything and then use Spot on those things you couldn't previously see.

[Greenish]

Finally, if Fighters have enough skill points for spot, who is lacking the skill points?I'm not sure I get what you're driving at here. Obviously, if everyone has plenty of skillpoints to spare, everyone should crossclass Spot, no matter how cumbersome that is, but are you suggesting that's always (or even usually) the case?

[OldTrees1]

I'm not sure I get what you're driving at here. Obviously, if everyone has plenty of skillpoints to spare, everyone should crossclass Spot, no matter how cumbersome that is, but are you suggesting that's always (or even usually) the case?

I am suggesting inability to target/great inaccuracy in targeting your enemy is a great enough weakness that Spot(or a replacement for undead/casters) would be a priority for most characters after a certain level.

I am further suggesting that even Fighter (2 to 4 + Int skill points, Spot is cross class) has enough skill points even when it does not multiclass.

However, in general, multiclassing improves skill load immensely. (1 rogue level every 5 fighter levels can keep you at max ranks in spot all bought 1:1)

[ericgrau]

This is what I mean by no spot ranks making a character blind if you have the wrong DM... you don't need spot to target foes normally. You mainly need it for hiding foes and sometimes encounter distances. If a foe is in plain sight you shouldn't roll spot. Furthermore, worst case scenario foes get a single surprise round. After that you see them; there is a -20 to stay hidden after attacking.

If the DM is making everyone blind who doesn't have spot then you dip 1 level of ranger and max out spot on all characters in the party. Casters might need cc ranks or a PrC. Then you can see like a normal human being... which shouldn't take skill ranks to do but whatever, you do it when you have that kind of DM and move on. None of the other skills tend to be significant compared to spot with such DMs since they focus so hard on spot. After all they've barely even read the spot rules so they probably have read even less of the other skills. So as long as you have 2 skill points per level to pay for cc ranks you can max out the only skill that really matters. Sure those DMs might have you roll a skill for roleplay or traps now and then but it's rare and nonessential.

[Uncle Pine]

Mindsight exists so that you never ever have to put a single rank into Spot and eventually focus on Listen.

[Curmudgeon]

Mindsight exists so that you never ever have to put a single rank into Spot and eventually focus on Listen.
... until you come across enemies who are attacking you from outside your telepathy range, and have absolutely no clue where they are despite them being in plain sight to anyone with a decent Spot check.

[Jowgen]

I feel like the Stormwrack rules for Spotting things on the open sea are relevant here. Even if you don't extend them to spotting things in other un-obstructed terrains, they still make spot more useful in a campaign with nautical elements.


However, in general, multiclassing improves skill load immensely. (1 rogue level every 5 fighter levels can keep you at max ranks in spot all bought 1:1)

Could you elaborate on the maths for this, please?

[OldTrees1]

This is what I mean by no spot ranks making a character blind if you have the wrong DM... you don't need spot to target foes normally. You mainly need it for hiding foes and sometimes encounter distances. If a foe is in plain sight you shouldn't roll spot. Furthermore, worst case scenario foes get a single surprise round. After that you see them; there is a -20 to stay hidden after attacking.

Hide in Plain Sight is common for sneaks. Being able to see a sneak in combat is a privilege, not a right. However they do suffer a large enough penalty that anyone that is investing in spot should have a chance.



@Mindsight
Not everyone is a telepathic character. Especially since the common way is via a caster prestige class dip. However it can be a good substitution if you don't mind the Total Concealment.


Could you elaborate on the maths for this, please?
Rogue 1 / Fighter 5 / Rogue 1 / Fighter 5 / Rogue 1
Fighter gets 2+Int skill points. Rogue gets 6+(2+Int) skill points.
If you only spend points on spot when it is a class skill:
1st level: 4 ranks [max ranks]
2nd-6th level: 4 ranks [decreasing relative proficiency]
7th level: 10 ranks [max ranks]
8th-12th level: 10 ranks [decreasing relative proficiency]
13th level: 16 ranks [max ranks]

Of course this gets even better with higher Int, substitution levels, martial dips, and prestige classes.

[Uncle Pine]

... until you come across enemies who are attacking you from outside your telepathy range, and have absolutely no clue where they are despite them being in plain sight to anyone with a decent Spot check.

Taking a single Mindbender level is an easy and practical way to get telepathy with a 100 feet radius. If you're letting someone more than 100 feet away from you attack you, there's clearly a huge hole in your plan A and you should switch to plan B.

EDIT:

@Mindsight
Not everyone is a telepathic character. Especially since the common way is via a caster prestige class dip. However it can be a good substitution if you don't mind the Total Concealment.
Leadership is an easy and practical way to acquire an AMF tibbit cohort with a Mindbender dip and Mindsight. Such a cohort could serve as "spotter", buffer and fluffy team pet.

[OldTrees1]

Leadership is an easy and practical way to acquire an AMF tibbit cohort with a Mindbender dip and Mindsight. Such a cohort could serve as "spotter", buffer and fluffy team pet.

1)
That requires the DM allowing Leadership and allowing it as a combat feat. A background cohort is not useful as a spotter unless you are at base.

2)
That does not solve the more important Total Concealment issue.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Mindsight only tells you something is there. It helps against invisibility and hide, but spot does a lot more than that. It counters Sleight of Hand, lets you read lips, see through disguises, notice someone doing something stealthy, see things far enough away that you can prepare an ambush... Mindsight does nothing of that.

If you can i'd max both spot & listen. If you have to decide i'd rather take spot because it has a lot more uses besides the obvious one, but it's a tough call.

[Uncle Pine]

1)
That requires the DM allowing Leadership and allowing it as a combat feat. A background cohort is not useful as a spotter unless you are at base.

I don't see why a DM would allow a PC to take Leadership if the PC isn't entitled to make use of his cohort when even the feat's description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#leadership) describes how the cohort should gain xp (both in combat and social encounters). Nevertheless, if we're weighting the usefulness of two skills setting arbitrarily limits won't give us any valuable answer.



2)
That does not solve the more important Total Concealment issue.

Bring a flour pouch.
AMF takes care of any magical source of total concealment your foe could have. You can even combine it with the flour pouch mentioned above. Alternatively, if you or your DM generally dislike exploits involving Selective AMFs, your AMF tibbit cohort can simply spam Glitterdust until everything and everyone is covered in sparkly sparkles (-40 penalty on Hide checks, be careful not to accidentally blind yourself or your allies).

[OldTrees1]

I don't see why a DM would allow a PC to take Leadership if the PC isn't entitled to make use of his cohort when even the feat's description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#leadership) describes how the cohort should gain xp (both in combat and social encounters). Nevertheless, if we're weighting the usefulness of two skills setting arbitrarily limits won't give us any valuable answer.
Agreed, restricting the conversation to Leadership allowing DMs would be an unreasonable arbitrary limit since Leadership is often not allowed. Therefore we need to keep the qualifier that Mindsight is not frequently available to all characters. Characters that do not have Mindsight/a Mindbender Cohort would have a lot of use for spot.


Bring a flour pouch.
AMF takes care of any magical source of total concealment your foe could have. You can even combine it with the flour pouch mentioned above. Alternatively, if you or your DM generally dislike exploits involving Selective AMFs, your AMF tibbit cohort can simply spam Glitterdust until everything and everyone is covered in sparkly sparkles (-40 penalty on Hide checks, be careful not to accidentally blind yourself or your allies).
Fair enough.

[Uncle Pine]

Characters that do not have Mindsight/a Mindbender Cohort would have a lot of use for spot.

Fair enough. :smallwink:

[CoffeeIncluded]

I dunno, my Rogue/Warblade/Wizard has the best Spot and Listen checks in our group....which includes a pure ranger and a rogue with maxed ranks, though having a hawk familiar does help tons.

As the DM, no the rogue does not. She has 4 ranks in spot and 2 in listen, and the party just hit level 7.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I thought Elsee had better preception skills, my bad, still my point was that while Rogues/Ranger/skillmonkeys usually have the best perception skills it is not always the case, that and the fact that some minor and completely incidental bonus (Familiar) give quite and edge.

[Vogonjeltz]

The range penalties make it hard to see anything you'd need a Spot check for at longer distances, though.

Of course, it's often the same PC who has both skills up.

Sure as long as you actually need to make a spot check (same penalties for listen of course). I was just making the point that a spot check isn't required for most things.

[Pex]

Listen only has the illusion of being useful.

If you overhear conversation that is important and valuable, you were going to get that information anyway. Maybe not right then but eventually by some other NPC or finding a note or something, but actively listening was just a convenient excuse for the DM to give you that information at that moment instead of later. Otherwise it's just information the DM made up right then and there that may or may not be used for a future plot hook or it's just game world flavor text.

When not used to overhear a conversation, Listen tells you nothing. You may hear a drip. You may hear grunting. You may hear a grinding noise. You will never be told what it is you truly wanted Listen to do. You will never be told the exact number of creatures in a particular place, what they are, what they're doing, or what specifically are significant objects in that area. Even hearing nothing tells you nothing since just because you don't hear anything doesn't mean there's no creature in that area who would attack.

Perhaps the only true useful thing Listen does is if you do hear something it prevents an ambush or surprise round from occurring.

[Chronos]

There is such a thing as non-mandatory information. Maybe overhearing a conversation won't change the course of what your characters are doing-- They'll still fight the same enemies eventually. But maybe eavesdropping will let them know what their enemies are preparing, letting them prepare for that, and making the encounter (whenever it happens) much easier.

Glitterdust is not a reliable counter to Hide, unless you can somehow get it at will and have a lot of patience. You're not going to just cast it every single round of the day on every single square around you. It's great to cast it when the hidden rogue is there, but the whole point of the rogue being hidden is that you don't know when that is.

And Listen also has one other key advantage over Spot that nobody else has mentioned yet: At least two classes (Barbarian and Bard) have Listen as a class skill but not Spot.

[Extra Anchovies]

Perhaps the only true useful thing Listen does is if you do hear something it prevents an ambush or surprise round from occurring.

In the game of rocket tag that is high-level D&D, giving your enemies an uncontested surprise round means death (hence the importance of Celerity/Nerveskitter/Dire Tortoises/what-have-you). The first strike is everything (or at least very important), and Listen is often better at preventing ambushes then Spot (for example, if enemies begin combat invisible or don't approach from the front, both of which will be tactics that show up in the mid/early game and stick around).

[Curmudgeon]

Taking a single Mindbender level is an easy and practical way to get telepathy with a 100 feet radius. If you're letting someone more than 100 feet away from you attack you, there's clearly a huge hole in your plan A and you should switch to plan B.
While I suppose you could go nowhere with more than 100' of line of sight, that seems awfully restrictive. If you go adventuring you're going to let enemies attack you. Yes, you can switch to plan B (no adventuring), but that's awfully boring. If you only have Mindsight with 100' range, and you're seen by enemies with normal/low-light vision or 120' darkvision, they're going to get to attack you before you know where they are. Enemies fond of skirmishing are going to keep their distance for subsequent attacks.

Relying solely on a range-limited perception mechanic is very short-sighted. :smallwink:

[aleucard]

1)
That requires the DM allowing Leadership and allowing it as a combat feat. A background cohort is not useful as a spotter unless you are at base.

2)
That does not solve the more important Total Concealment issue.

Casters and some forms of Ranged combat (IE: Dragonfire Adept) largely don't have to worry about this. Rarely do their abilities need you to know more about their location than which 5-foot square they occupy, and Total Concealment doesn't do jack to hinder that ability in this instance. If you're wanting to chuck orbs or arrows or something, though, yeah you'll be in the suck. That's why you make sure you have options.

[Greenish]

And Listen also has one other key advantage over Spot that nobody else has mentioned yet: At least two classes (Barbarian and Bard) have Listen as a class skill but not Spot.Ditto swordsage. No class I can think of has the opposite.

[heavyfuel]

Ditto swordsage. No class I can think of has the opposite.

Human Paragon and Expert can have Spot only, and given the circumstances of only being able to choose one was what led to this question being asked in the first place :smallamused:

[Sir Garanok]

The scout should have both maxed imo.

For all the others i'd go for spot..

[Uncle Pine]

While I suppose you could go nowhere with more than 100' of line of sight, that seems awfully restrictive. If you go adventuring you're going to let enemies attack you. Yes, you can switch to plan B (no adventuring), but that's awfully boring. If you only have Mindsight with 100' range, and you're seen by enemies with normal/low-light vision or 120' darkvision, they're going to get to attack you before you know where they are. Enemies fond of skirmishing are going to keep their distance for subsequent attacks.

Relying solely on a range-limited perception mechanic is very short-sighted. :smallwink:

Dungeons, sewers, caves and many other common adventuring sites often don't even have a straight corridor longer than 100' ft. Still, knowing that every enemy you outside your mindsight range gets a -10 penalty to Spot and Listen to detect you is immensely useful.
Plan B is short for back-up plan, which is a plan to adopt when something has gone wrong. "Go home and give up on your adventurer career" isn't a back-up plan: crouching behind your tower shield, taking cover, hiding somewhere waiting for the enemy to do the wrong move, going for a tactical withdrawal, becoming invisible, summoning a wall of stone/ice/force, teleporting away to adopt a scry-and-dye tactic are back-up plans. Switching to plan B isn't always necessary if you're attacked from an unseen assailant: if the attack didn't do any significant damage, you can simply laugh at your foes and retaliate with a well aimed fireball.

Also:

If you go adventuring you're going to let enemies attack you.

Not if you're a Wizard. If you are not a Wizard but your cohort or one of your allies are a Wizard you're going to let enemies attack you, but you'll likely know who and where they are.

[Gwendol]

I find listen to be of more use.

[Ettina]

Listen only has the illusion of being useful.

If you overhear conversation that is important and valuable, you were going to get that information anyway. Maybe not right then but eventually by some other NPC or finding a note or something, but actively listening was just a convenient excuse for the DM to give you that information at that moment instead of later. Otherwise it's just information the DM made up right then and there that may or may not be used for a future plot hook or it's just game world flavor text.

When not used to overhear a conversation, Listen tells you nothing. You may hear a drip. You may hear grunting. You may hear a grinding noise. You will never be told what it is you truly wanted Listen to do. You will never be told the exact number of creatures in a particular place, what they are, what they're doing, or what specifically are significant objects in that area. Even hearing nothing tells you nothing since just because you don't hear anything doesn't mean there's no creature in that area who would attack.

Perhaps the only true useful thing Listen does is if you do hear something it prevents an ambush or surprise round from occurring.

Not if you have me as DM. In the campaign I'm running, failing your Listen check could mean you're oblivious to the fact that you're being followed, the guy following you gets to freely report back to his master about your actions, and the entire storyline changes because an important NPC knows something she wouldn't otherwise have known.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

They're both some of the most useful non-broken skills in the game, and enemies who make good use of hide/move silent are IME some of the most dangerous, since getting ambushed is pretty bad news. Not being able to effectively target your foes is also bad news, but doesn't matter as much if you're already dead. In all, if you could only pump one, I would pump listen if I could get some other reliable way of defeating hide, spot otherwise.

I found my favorite detection method in Bunko's Bargain Basement: The Chainmail Glove of Taarnahm the Vigilant (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mc/mc20020130a). It just flat out alerts you if any creature within 120' that intends to harm you. No check, no LoE problems, no ethereal blocking, nothing. Not to say that it replaces all detection methods (it doesn't tell you where the threat is, for instance), but for 10k and a hand slot it complements other detection methods quite nicely.

[Uncle Pine]

The Chainmail Glove of Taarnahm the Vigilant (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mc/mc20020130a)

This is seriously amazing (and it complements well with mindsight 100').

[supersonic29]

Listen, probably.
Spot is partially dependent on your field of view, but listen is full earshot. The only flaw is you can't engage on only listen if their exact location isn't made apparent by whipping your head to the side, so don't forget about spot even if you favor listen.

[Optimator]

I'd have to say Spot, but it's very close.