DM opinion. Pulling trump

[jjcrpntr]

Ok so anyone who has played games like hearts, spades or Euchre should know what the term pulling trump means. For those who don't it's basically where you pull everyone's best cards out of the game.

So I'm running my pathfinder campaign and I had started it back in like Jan/Feb. On one occasion I had given out a homebrewed item that ended up just being more powerful, and frankly more of a pain in the ass than I had thought. My mistake as a new DM.

So tonight I pulled trump. The players had been hearing about this band of pirates. They had encountered a lesser group of them once a long time ago and thought that it would be a good idea to go hunt these pirates down. The players had been warned multiple times that these pirates were the biggest badasses on the seas. They were universally feared and powerful. They went anyway.The pirates were way higher level than the players and I had the pirates all using weapons with the merciful enchantment (they are known slavers) and took the party down pretty dang fast. As a result the pirates looted the players and sold them into slavery. Through some RP stuff a year later they managed to escape and found a Kasatha Monk (cool race from Bestiary 4) that gave them gear that set them back at WBL if they'd agree to help him take out the guy that had enslaved them for a year.

Now the biggest thing tonight was that the pirates looted the players. Took everything, armor, weapons, potions, magic items, everything. Of the players at the table tonight 3 thought this was hilarious and awesome. Saying it made sense, if they had killed the pirates they'd have done the same thing. One player however flipped his crap and got really angry about it.

So I ask the playground. Your thoughts on this kind of thing? In my defense I did this for really 2 reasons.

1) I really wanted to get that item out of the game it wasn't the most powerful thing but it ended up being annoying.
2) This player bitched about loot/wbl EVERY SINGLE GAME. Regardless of the fact that I had done a good job of keeping him at or above WBL all along. This is a guy that was pissed that I didn't have boots of speed in a loot drop for him at level 3. So I pulled trump and said "ok, now EVERYONE is exactly at WBL you are geared and ready. I don't want to hear any more bitching about loot".

[Theomniadept]

If he doesn't know what actual WBL is then he has no right to complain; conversely, you as the DM do have to make sure they are at -actual- WBL. No point in giving the party WBL in gems if they have to sell them at half price, know what I mean?

There is a subtle difference between saying 'these guys are tough' and actually giving them the knowledge they needed; if all you said was that they were badasses then that wasn't the brightest move. Always give some sort of reference like "These pirates took former military commanders hostage", or "These pirates display a Scyllan on the front of their ship only because the Dragon head wouldn't fit".

[jjcrpntr]

If he doesn't know what actual WBL is then he has no right to complain; conversely, you as the DM do have to make sure they are at -actual- WBL. No point in giving the party WBL in gems if they have to sell them at half price, know what I mean?

There is a subtle difference between saying 'these guys are tough' and actually giving them the knowledge they needed; if all you said was that they were badasses then that wasn't the brightest move. Always give some sort of reference like "These pirates took former military commanders hostage", or "These pirates display a Scyllan on the front of their ship only because the Dragon head wouldn't fit".

True, the party was at WBL in their gear/stuff I had made sure of that. At worst one player was 2-3k below (they are level 7).

As for the pirates. The party had been told several times that these guys were the most feared group of pirates out there. The research they had done in a large trading city told them that these guys were strong. In a ocean that was commonly patrolled by two high powered and well organized navy's and even THEY try to avoid these pirates. I don't feel bad about the fight against the pirates they had, had several warnings over the last few months about these guys.

[Theomniadept]

Oh yeah, they kinda deserved it then. Players get a few immunities, like the DM blatantly not being allowed to have some 17th level assassin kill them in their sleep, while a 17th level assassin PC is technically allowed to kill lower level things in their sleep. The only time players should be allowed to fight higher level things (higher to the point of being impossible to beat) is if they are 100% informed that they will lose. If the players thought they had some magical aura that sets even the main campaign BBEG to their level for a fair fight, they needed a reminder that they're only characters in a world.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The only time players should be allowed to fight higher level things (higher to the point of being impossible to beat) is if they are 100% informed that they will lose.
Incorrect. The encounter table in the DMG specifically says that PCs should be facing enemies with a CR at the party ECL+5 or higher in one encounter out of 13. I.e. once every 13 encounters the PCs are supposed to lose. If any PC is bitching about the outcome, just show them the table.




One player however flipped his crap and got really angry about it.
Show him the rules about random treasure rolling and random magic item bying availability in the DMG. Then tell him that you were already very generous with treasure - the rules actually say that treasure should be randomly rolled every encounter with practically no chance the PCs get good items, and that even when he goes to buy his items he still has to roll to see if an item is available - meaning that by the rules PCs should rarely have the items they want.
If he's ever played the likes of Diablo, remind him just how many encounters he'd have to farm before some good item cropped up and how many times he'd have to visit the shops before a good item randomly rolled. And then show him the rules saying that in DnD treasure is just as random and unsatisfying as that, normally. But you as a generous DM have been allowing the PCs to get much better items than they should have.

[oxybe]

What's done is done. Can't say I agree with how the player reacted but I can empathize with his situation: getting your stuff taken from you sucks. Doubly so if it's something you've grown attached to. The pirates being able to trounce the party no problem is annoying, but assuming they had enough and appropriate warning it's fair game. However, make sure he doesn't find out that you did the kidnapping part as an excuse to pull trump... that would be throwing oil on the fire.

What I would have done though? Explained to them long before the session about the specific items being problems and that they need to be toned down/removed, then work towards that goal with the player who has a given problem item to fix the item in question or give them something similar, but not as powerful.

If a player still refuses to work with me to solve a problem, and to be honest I've never met any players or GMs that actually tantrum'ed as the worst that happened was they simply up and left after the session was going somewhere they simply didn't care for, then he's free to leave the table.

[ramrod]

It would have helped if we knew what the item was. It's often easy to just work around abilities that items provide.

Personally I just allow players to have more or less what they want at certain levels, then the loot in between comes out completely at random or is store bought.

Items that prove too powerful get worked around. Splitting bow? Wind walls, high ranged ac, entropic Shields or just mentally take 10% damage off (still allows for be great visible numbers and still have a big advantage, but is capped to a level you deem more appropriate for the cost) etc. Just as an example.

Were you right in what you did? Yes. You roll played a solution which they were warned about. I don't believe in railroading parties to keep them away from things that they are clearly too low level for. You found a way for them to not be tpkd.

Losing items does bite hard though, I'd prefer to take the route of dampening effects or not being able to find in the first place that stripping a party of their prized possession.

[jjcrpntr]

It would have helped if we knew what the item was. It's often easy to just work around abilities that items provide.

Personally I just allow players to have more or less what they want at certain levels, then the loot in between comes out completely at random or is store bought.

Items that prove too powerful get worked around. Splitting bow? Wind walls, high ranged ac, entropic Shields or just mentally take 10% damage off (still allows for be great visible numbers and still have a big advantage, but is capped to a level you deem more appropriate for the cost) etc. Just as an example.

Were you right in what you did? Yes. You roll played a solution which they were warned about. I don't believe in railroading parties to keep them away from things that they are clearly too low level for. You found a way for them to not be tpkd.

Losing items does bite hard though, I'd prefer to take the route of dampening effects or not being able to find in the first place that stripping a party of their prized possession.

Well the item itself wasn't necessarily super powerful, it was more annoying (mostly in the attitude the player had towards it and the fact that he could never seem to use it right).

Basically the item was an Orb (slotless item) that had different effects depending on your alignment. IE the Lawful good Cleric could use the orb to use cure light wounds as a swift action twice per day. The Chaotic Neutral barbarian (the player who flippedout) could use the orb to add 1/2 to his dmg twice per day. This isn't hugely powerful but i thought it would be fun. The problem is the player complained about it a lot, could never understand how to calculate his damage properly and the item turned out to be more of an annoyance than it was worth really.


and to oxybe:

I've tried that (talk to the player) and such. The issue is the guy (who is a great guy, good friend) is a RIFTS player. So he believes that every fight should be I hit you, you hit me, repeat. That he should always be able to escape a fight if things go south (because you should always have an option to run) and that he should be super powerful. We've had this issue where he spends all his money on haste potions the minute he could afford them. This started at level 2. So he's buying these potions then complains about not having money to buy stuff in towns. So when I or the other players have talked to him he gets defensive and angry. That's why I decided when they said they wanted to go after the strongest group of pirates in the world I saw this as an opportunity.

[Theomniadept]

We've had this issue where he spends all his money on haste potions the minute he could afford them. This started at level 2. So he's buying these potions then complains about not having money to buy stuff in towns. So when I or the other players have talked to him he gets defensive and angry.Please don't step over here, I'll clean up my vomit, just lemme get the bucket and mop.

[jjcrpntr]

Please don't step over here, I'll clean up my vomit, just lemme get the bucket and mop.

Lol, the problem is we started this game while we were playing a 3.5 game. In that game we were all level 13 (I was playing). When we started the pathfinder game with me dming I had them start at level 1 so that I could have some time to learn the ins and outs properly. He wants all the buffs and stuff at level 1-3 that he had at level 10+

[georgie_leech]

Lol, the problem is we started this game while we were playing a 3.5 game. In that game we were all level 13 (I was playing). When we started the pathfinder game with me dming I had them start at level 1 so that I could have some time to learn the ins and outs properly. He wants all the buffs and stuff at level 1-3 that he had at level 10+

Frankly, if he's spending all of his money on one-shot consumables and has no money for his own gear, that's his own fault. Much like if you spend your entire budget on chips, you won't have any left over for rent.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Frankly, if he's spending all of his money on one-shot consumables and has no money for his own gear, that's his own fault. Much like if you spend your entire budget on chips, you won't have any left over for rent.

Aren't consumables supposed to amount to 10-15% of your WBL at any given point? I know the DMG has that listed somewhere, and that said percentage is not a lot. Going past that amount means digging yourself into a hole. While I don't like judging the guy without hearing his side from himself, it honestly seems like he is at fault for his own actions.

[Pex]

When NPCs tell the party some group of evil bad guys are really dangerous and nasty and not to be trifled with, players are not wrong or stupid to want to go after them because they think it's a plot hook. They're the heroes. Going after a group of evil bad guys who are really dangerous and nasty and not to be trifled with is what they are supposed to do and is the whole point of being at the game table.

You had an out of game problem and should have handled it out of game. Admit you goofed. The item you gave was ruining the campaign. Tell the players it needs to be fixed. Maybe its abilities need to be nerfed. Maybe it needs to be removed from the campaign and some story plot hook will happen to make it so, but the party won't be adversely affected. It's your fault, not theirs, and they should not be punished for it such as being baited to encounter a foe they couldn't possibly defeat and lose all their stuff.

[awa]

see while i agree with some of your statement beware the dark forest deadly monsters live there is more likely to be seen as a plot hook then an actual warning.

I disagree that he did something wrong getting captured can be fun as long as it doesn't happen to often and you get your wealth by level back up within a few sessions. It seems like most of his players enjoyed it and the one who doesn't sounds like he cant be pleased anyway.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Based on the information provided in the OP and the answers to questions asked, I think your actions were perfectly reasonable. The player is clearly interested in playing a different type of game than the rest of your group however and this should be addressed. You need to make him/her aware that they can and will lose. Not every fight will be pushover with little or no tactics from enemies. I would try to come to a compromise with the player and have some encounters where they do get to curb stomp some wimpy, lower level, and unintelligent foes.

[Firechanter]

Aren't consumables supposed to amount to 10-15% of your WBL at any given point?

Almost. Actually, average standard treasure drops over the course of time amount to a total roughly 10-15% above WBL. So you are supposed to spend 10-15% of WBL for consumables, but not at any given time, but over _your entire career_. Because it is expected that you actually use that stuff once in a while.

To determine the value of consumables a character should normally have at any given point, you take the wealth _gain_ from last level to current, and take 10-15% of _that_ number.

For example, level 7 (the OP's party) WBL is 19.000GP, level 6 WBL is 13.000GP; so the gain is 6000GP. So you take 15% of the difference, and presto, you know that at level 7, a PC is supposed to possess about 900GP of consumables, on top of his 19K Gear.

Of course these are just averages. I found it to be pretty common that a party saves up most of their consumables for several levels, then blow them all out in one epic boss fight. But the point stands.

[jjcrpntr]

see while i agree with some of your statement beware the dark forest deadly monsters live there is more likely to be seen as a plot hook then an actual warning.

This is fair. I thought I had (and I really did try) explained to the players through their investigation about these pirates and their location, that this would be a really bad idea. I try to not railroad my players but at the same time I warned them that after level 5 (we were all new to pathfinder so I wanted to give some time for them to learn the system/classes) the plot armor was off. Before that they could die but I'd generally put things there to stop them from doing something stupid, ala poke a dragon with a stick for kicks. If I tell them "hey there's this ancient dragon causing trouble" and they decide to go after it even after the bard does a knowledge check and realizes that an ancient dragon is way out of their power level, that's on them.

And yes, this was partially an out of game issue with the player. I did try to address it out of game, several times in fact. A few of the other players had talked to him. Eventually I thought this would be the only way to get through to him.

Also they are already back to WBL. After their escape they met a group of warriors who wanted to take out the guy that had bought the players and they agreed to give the players gear and items if they would help overthrow this very evil person. They were all also given a permanent increase to a stat to reflect their growth during their times as slaves (we fast forwarded a year).

Barbarian got a +1 wisdom for learning to keep his cool under a really terrible job because he knew if he did anything his friends would be executed.
The Inquisitor got a +1 str for working in the quarry.
Bard and Druid got +1 con, as they was constantly oggled and drooled over by really disgusting people so they had to fight back the bile in their throats.
Cleric got a +1 charisma because he was allowed to go in to town and heal people but they didn't trust him because he was always accompanied by the evil dudes guards. So he had to work on getting the to trust him.

I figured between the stat bonus and getting them all back to WBL (not counting the potions, backpacks, rope ect they were given as well) it was pretty fair.


Lastly I'm not posting this to have everyone agree with me it was an honest question about what people think. I've been running this game since around Feb. and I think I've learned a lot about the system and how to run a game since then. I think i'm 10x the dm I was when I started. But I am still relatively new and still learning. I appreciate the feedback from my players and from you guys here.

[Urpriest]

You had an out of game problem and should have handled it out of game. Admit you goofed. The item you gave was ruining the campaign. Tell the players it needs to be fixed. Maybe its abilities need to be nerfed. Maybe it needs to be removed from the campaign and some story plot hook will happen to make it so, but the party won't be adversely affected. It's your fault, not theirs, and they should not be punished for it such as being baited to encounter a foe they couldn't possibly defeat and lose all their stuff.

If the item was too powerful, I would agree. But it sounds like the item wasn't too powerful, the player was just too stupid to use it without disrupting the game. And that's not really something you can bring up in a civil way.

[Flickerdart]

Incorrect. The encounter table in the DMG specifically says that PCs should be facing enemies with a CR at the party ECL+5 or higher in one encounter out of 13. I.e. once every 13 encounters the PCs are supposed to lose. If any PC is bitching about the outcome, just show them the table.

If you're losing against CR+5 encounters, I feel bad for you, son.

[Gray Mage]

What level were the pirates?

[jjcrpntr]

What level were the pirates?

10. The pirate boss was higher but he didn't factor in. The players were warned that the pirate boss was highly intelligent hut incredibly paranoid. The players decided to walk up on to the deck after standing around for a few minutes outside the ship talking. The pirates look out saw them and gave the signal for the others to prepare (ie. Drink potions).

The players were also warned that the pirate boss had between 50 and 100 crew members. So they knew going in they could likely be vastly out numbered.

[Gray Mage]

10. The pirate boss was higher but he didn't factor in. The players were warned that the pirate boss was highly intelligent hut incredibly paranoid. The players decided to walk up on to the deck after standing around for a few minutes outside the ship talking. The pirates look out saw them and gave the signal for the others to prepare (ie. Drink potions).

The players were also warned that the pirate boss had between 50 and 100 crew members. So they knew going in they could likely be vastly out numbered.

Since they weren't too much overleved and I assume you didn't actually use 50 pirates in the battle (for sanity reasons, mostly :smalltongue:) and they had the tactics of lemmings I think it was fine. Mind you, I think your reasons are OOC issues and should be addressed as such, but it could have been doable with good prep.

[Pex]

If the item was too powerful, I would agree. But it sounds like the item wasn't too powerful, the player was just too stupid to use it without disrupting the game. And that's not really something you can bring up in a civil way.

It's still an out of game problem. The DM could privately speak with the player to explain what's wrong and how to fix it. If it must be solved in game then a friendly NPC mentor comes along, perhaps a former owner of the object excited to meet the next worthy wielder, who can give proper instruction on how the item should be used. There's no need to treasure-wipe the party just to get rid of that one item.

[Erik Vale]

*Reads Through*
Ok. Problem player is a problem, it's not you.

[Magesmiley]

There's no need to treasure-wipe the party just to get rid of that one item.

I think the resolution was entirely reasonable. Treasure-wiping the PCs was completely logical based on the situation that they put themselves into.

Choices by the PCs have consequences, both good and bad. If their actions always had a good result, there isn't a lot of point in playing. In this case, it sounds like it really came down to poor choices by the PCs. Which usually leads to additional interesting choices on how to deal with the new problems. I think the game sounds like it is running just fine.

[Mellack]

Are you prepared for when they want to hunt down the pirates in a few levels?

[jjcrpntr]

Are you prepared for when they want to hunt down the pirates in a few levels?

Yes, if they revisit it.

[SaintRidley]

Gotta say, I like the way you handled this one.

[Pex]

I think the resolution was entirely reasonable. Treasure-wiping the PCs was completely logical based on the situation that they put themselves into.

Choices by the PCs have consequences, both good and bad. If their actions always had a good result, there isn't a lot of point in playing. In this case, it sounds like it really came down to poor choices by the PCs. Which usually leads to additional interesting choices on how to deal with the new problems. I think the game sounds like it is running just fine.

The party was baited and they bit. It wasn't a poor decision. Going after bad guys is what they were supposed to do. Warnings mean nothing because NPCs always give warnings because they can't handle the threat. That's why the party is needed to take care of the problem. The DM chose to have the pirates be several levels higher than the party and wipe them out easily. A DM can do rocks fall everyone dies whenever he wants. Had it been a fair fight against a reasonable challenging pirate band but the party lost due to poor tactics perhaps combined with bad luck dice rolling that would be a different story. The DM threw an overbearing enemy against the party just to get rid of one item.

[Firechanter]

While the overall resolution of this situation seems alright to me, I feel that this here bears mentioning twice:


Warnings mean nothing because NPCs always give warnings because they can't handle the threat. That's why the party is needed to take care of the problem.

It can really be a problem to honestly warn players without resorting to straight OOC "Guys, leave them alone, you aren't up to it". If a setting is described as being populated by 99% 1st-level Commoners, having these describe something as mortal threat isn't going to cut it, because for 1st-level Commoners a friggin' _housecat_ is a mortal threat.
Players aren't telepaths, they can't read the DM's mind whether this week's "mortal threat" is again the equivalent of a bunch of CR1/2 Orc Warriors or a sophisticated SWAT-Team of of 10th-level Assassins.

BTW, it can go the other way: I've had it more than once that players perceived a description of a threat as "too dangerous" and would have refused to engage it at all, if I (as DM) hadn't told them OOC that this was the perception of lowlevel NPCs and I did believe that the PCs should be able to pull it off.

[Jeff the Green]

The party was baited and they bit. It wasn't a poor decision. Going after bad guys is what they were supposed to do. Warnings mean nothing because NPCs always give warnings because they can't handle the threat. That's why the party is needed to take care of the problem. The DM chose to have the pirates be several levels higher than the party and wipe them out easily. A DM can do rocks fall everyone dies whenever he wants. Had it been a fair fight against a reasonable challenging pirate band but the party lost due to poor tactics perhaps combined with bad luck dice rolling that would be a different story. The DM threw an overbearing enemy against the party just to get rid of one item.

You missed this part:


In a ocean that was commonly patrolled by two high powered and well organized navy's and even THEY try to avoid these pirates.

They weren't told they're too strong to be defeated by cowering peasants. They were told they're too strong to be defeated by an entire navy. Even the most casual of gamers who comes at it from a video game sorting-algorithm standpoint should be smart enough to leave them alone.

[lytokk]

I actually have an unofficial signal to my players to show them the difference between when I'm egging them into adventure and flat out saying to not do this. Only one of my players has ever picked up on this and I'm thankful she has. If the situation is going to result in their deaths, there's always a t-rex nearby. Not necessarily the creature, maybe a carving of it or something of that nature. Thankfully she's normally the voice of reason in the party so they tend to listen to her.

[Firechanter]

If the situation is going to result in their deaths, there's always a t-rex nearby. Not necessarily the creature, maybe a carving of it or something of that nature.

Haha, that's awesome. =D

So, to get this straight, you never _told_ them that "T-Rex visual = Certain Death"? How did that one player find out, then?

[Urpriest]

It's true that the players might have thought level 10 to be more than a tad ridiculous for material plane pirates. Maybe the captain would be level 10, but an organization of 50 level 10 characters is probably not going to be interested in doing piracy on the material plane.

That said, the main problem I have with all this is that it's shortsighted. If this player has no interest in D&D-esque combat and doesn't know how to add two numbers together when calculating damage then removing a particular magic item is only a temporary solution, and wiping the entire party's gear for a temporary solution is kind of short-sighted.

[lytokk]

By gaming with me for years. One time when we were both players and I could tell the DM was trying to tell one player to not do something so amazingly stupid. I really don't remember what it was. All I remember was saying "What, do you need a giant T-rex behind the guy to tell you that this is a bad idea?"

One of the first times I DMed, the party was trying to intimidate an NPC vendor into dropping a price. They rolled bad, at which point he called for Fluffy, which was, a t-rex. With the low roll and the fact they were arguing over 50gp, I decided the guy would just be a high level druid. Sadly to say it didn't stop the party from trying further, but she got the hint, and distracted them with something shiny.

[Trebloc]

How do you typically describe other difficult encounters that are also level-appropriate for the PCs? Is it similar to badass pirates that the navy fears?

Did the group have other known options available to them? And how were those options described?

[jjcrpntr]

How do you typically describe other difficult encounters that are also level-appropriate for the PCs? Is it similar to badass pirates that the navy fears?

Did the group have other known options available to them? And how were those options described?

Generally when things are given to them as options it's described something along the lines of "Theres X out in the (insert location) causing us headaches/being general *******s. Please help!" I have one player (and a second that's caught on) that can will generally say "umm guys I have a feeling this is a really bad idea" when I describe things as I did the pirates.

They had one other option that was laid out as trouble in the mountains. An issue similar to the one they encountered in a large city. To be honest it's entirely possible that I did inadvertently bait them as these weren't given intense descriptions. But in my defense at that point in the session (3 hours in) they had made it clear that their sole tunnel vision goal was the pirates.

[Barstro]

That said, the main problem I have with all this is that it's shortsighted. If this player has no interest in D&D-esque combat and doesn't know how to add two numbers together when calculating damage then removing a particular magic item is only a temporary solution, and wiping the entire party's gear for a temporary solution is kind of short-sighted.

So true. What the OP sees as a problem with a player is not the problem, it is a symptom (only the American medical field deals with symptoms instead of causes). The player himself and his expectations/logic are the problems. Much as you cannot use logic to point out to a schizophrenic individual why he is wrong, I see no way to work with this player.

If you could turn back time, I'd suggest splitting all treasure equally all the time, never giving "useful" treasure, and keep perfect track of who bought what. When the problem player has no good equipment, you could point out that everyone else has good equipment by not wasting it on chips consumables.

I personally have the opposite problem and have been constantly holding back my nukes for fear of the next fight, instead of making the current one easier. I'm happy that my current DM is finally starting to pull off the kid gloves. Sadly, everything has been so easy to this point that I'm not used to using correct strategy.

I see nothing wrong with taking away the players' shinies. In the future, you can give limited treasure and have shops that magically carry the exact item he needs in order to railroad him into playing better. As far as preventing bad decisions, you can always make a secret roll and state that his character feels that the events described indicate a powerful enemy that cannot possibly be defeated the the current party.

[jjcrpntr]

If you could turn back time, I'd suggest splitting all treasure equally all the time, never giving "useful" treasure, and keep perfect track of who bought what. When the problem player has no good equipment, you could point out that everyone else has good equipment by not wasting it on chips consumables.

I personally have the opposite problem and have been constantly holding back my nukes for fear of the next fight, instead of making the current one easier. I'm happy that my current DM is finally starting to pull off the kid gloves. Sadly, everything has been so easy to this point that I'm not used to using correct strategy.

I see nothing wrong with taking away the players' shinies. In the future, you can give limited treasure and have shops that magically carry the exact item he needs in order to railroad him into playing better. As far as preventing bad decisions, you can always make a secret roll and state that his character feels that the events described indicate a powerful enemy that cannot possibly be defeated the the current party.

I've been debating doing this. In the game there is a limited magic market. Players can get any +1 enhancement to weapons/armor and any magical item below 4000k pretty consistently. Anything beyond that there is a percentile roll to see if it's there.

Usually the party splits all loot evenly and gives magic items to whoever needs it the most. I've been debating just giving them flat gold/gems/art whatever, and letting them just buy what they want. It's frustrating at times.

But thanks for the feedback guys. I don't feel bad about what was done. Knowing my players, and seeing how 3 of the 4 thought it was an absolutely hilarious event, including our Inquisitor who actually lost a lot of really nice stuff but still thought the event was awesome, I think I did the right thing. This is something that I don't plan to make a habit of and hopefully never do again.

[Velaryon]

While the overall resolution of this situation seems alright to me, I feel that this here bears mentioning twice:



It can really be a problem to honestly warn players without resorting to straight OOC "Guys, leave them alone, you aren't up to it". If a setting is described as being populated by 99% 1st-level Commoners, having these describe something as mortal threat isn't going to cut it, because for 1st-level Commoners a friggin' _housecat_ is a mortal threat.
Players aren't telepaths, they can't read the DM's mind whether this week's "mortal threat" is again the equivalent of a bunch of CR1/2 Orc Warriors or a sophisticated SWAT-Team of of 10th-level Assassins.

BTW, it can go the other way: I've had it more than once that players perceived a description of a threat as "too dangerous" and would have refused to engage it at all, if I (as DM) hadn't told them OOC that this was the perception of lowlevel NPCs and I did believe that the PCs should be able to pull it off.

I agree with this. Only your players can tell whether the warnings you gave them mean "these guys are tough so only the PCs can beat them" or "hey guys, you really shouldn't try to fight these baddies, you aren't strong enough." You obviously think you were conveying the second message, but that doesn't mean it's what they heard.

With regard to warnings going the other way - I had a party of 9th or 10th level characters that were afraid to engage a couple cockatrices, even though they were more than powerful enough to kill them before the monsters could even act. :smallbiggrin:

If most of the players were okay with it, then I wouldn't worry too much. I think giving them permanent stat bonuses in exchange for their suffering is very generous. However, I also agree with the people who've said that your problem player has different expectations that you need to talk with him about.

[Sith_Happens]

I actually have an unofficial signal to my players to show them the difference between when I'm egging them into adventure and flat out saying to not do this. Only one of my players has ever picked up on this and I'm thankful she has. If the situation is going to result in their deaths, there's always a t-rex nearby. Not necessarily the creature, maybe a carving of it or something of that nature. Thankfully she's normally the voice of reason in the party so they tend to listen to her.

I'll need to keep this in mind for if I ever DM D&D, though if I actually do it I'll definitely use oranges (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY8yBhhZkwY) instead.:smallwink:

[Telok]

You want hilarity? Once one of my NPCs sent the party aginst a lich. They were level ten and directly warned that tha lich had been a famous mage, the head of the necromancers guild, had a piece of a known artifact, had created custom spells, and was very dangerous.

They went in totally unprepared. The freaking specter in the first crypt almost got a TPK. And this place was warded so that incorporeals couldn't go into the walls. They literally passed through towns with two libraries and four NPCs who could have helped them.

They never all died, but everyone had new characters by the end of the dungeon and they never did get all the lost loot back from the bottom of the black lake.

Never under estimate the players cranial density. Use the clue-by-four.

[ohil]

Hi, Player here. I was the Bard in the game. I knew what was going to happen. However before The DM told me out of game in game we had decided to move forward. So to be fair about this I thought well if I didn't have this info would I go after the pirates and the answer was Yes. Hence why we moved forward.

However to be fair we did try and do something else. I tried everything I could with in game info for another mission. I went to 4 different locations looking for something to do. Our only choice at that point was to go after the pirates or sit around the Bar.

For the WBL that player thinks 1st level should have 15k

[Barstro]

Our only choice at that point was to go after the pirates or sit around the Bar.

We've all had that choice IRL. Pretty sure we all just wind up at the bar. :smallwink:

[Nibbens]

Hi, Player here. I was the Bard in the game. I knew what was going to happen. However before The DM told me out of game in game we had decided to move forward. So to be fair about this I thought well if I didn't have this info would I go after the pirates and the answer was Yes. Hence why we moved forward.

However to be fair we did try and do something else. I tried everything I could with in game info for another mission. I went to 4 different locations looking for something to do. Our only choice at that point was to go after the pirates or sit around the Bar.

This throws a different light on the subject. It looks like the PC's decided to do something, then ended the session that night. The DM planned for it, extensively. Then when game time came, they tried to do something different, but the DM didn't have the material prepped. I know I've been there before, we all have.

However, I can't fault anyone here. The PC's weren't "baited" (because he told them Plot Armor was off at this point). IF this truly a free-form-non-railroad type game, he did the right thing by making the pirates sell them as slaves (instead of killing them) - because that's what they were known to do. This was a masterful way of slapping the PC's on the wrist and tell them "Pay More Attention To the Warnings in my Game." If that's what he wants to do, then bravo!

Now, I don't know about you, but if I was a pirate, I wouldn't leave the gear on the people who attacked me before I sold them into slavery. lol.

Anywhoo, all parties could be made happy. Have the PC's take the pirates down at a later date (this time with the help of both Navies? + any number of assistants and better planning, etc etc.) PC's get their revenge, AND get their items back (plus a lot more (or maybe even improvements of the old items, etc etc.)). (of course, minus the orb)

The item that was causing the problems with all the players - well, losing it was just a happy side effect of the situations the PC's were placed into. No bad blood here, I don't think.

However, there's no cure for the 15K gold WBL at lvl 1 guy. Sorry bro-ham.

[ohil]

No, were all good, (minus guy up set that it wasn't like Fable where after being in jail how long your stuff is in a chest at the end of the hall not being used.) Like I said I knew what was going to happen. The DM was very obvious as the pirate gang was barley beaten off by a ship with level 20 npcs. I honestly thought at least one of us should of died in the assault. He is a bit to nice about not killing us honestly.

We restarted after that. I"m know playing a Dwarf Wizard who has either the highest amount of melee kills or is tied for it. I use a battle axe as my back up as I have no damage spells (designed the guy this way.) However Our Paladin, and Magus have been rolling horrible. Seriously a level 1 cr creature almost did a party wipe for half the party. I have a +3 to hit and they have a +9. Yet I have the best to hit ratio for a guy who I never planned on making a roll in combat beyond Spell resistance. I use illusions, buffs and spells like Grease.

Our DM is Fair if not a bit to nice. But I think we have a bit to much fun. Since my Wizard is kind of the tank (I do have highest hp with 35 at level 3.) I talked with my dm and we have a back up for me. I asked him to build me a character. I know nothing about the character and the only thing I can see is his hp when I start playing him. AS the person has Amnesia. So can't wait to see what happens with him. If he uses spells and I try to cast he will roll a dice and see which spell I cast for feats they may just randomly activate. Honestly our dm let's us go out side of the box and have fun.