[Druid] Tough feat and Wild Shape

[Ferrin33]

How do these two interact?

"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."

Would it make your onion layers tougher, put you at the form's regular hit points but able to be healed up as Tough increases maximum hit points? Or would it not work at all?

"When you transform, you assume the beast's hit points and Hit Dice."

I think it puts you at that hit point total, with Tough giving you more maximum health as you retain its benefits which can be healed up for a temporarily tougher Wild Shape.

[Malifice]

How do these two interact?

"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."

Would it make your onion layers tougher, put you at the form's regular hit points but able to be healed up as Tough increases maximum hit points? Or would it not work at all?

"When you transform, you assume the beast's hit points and Hit Dice."

I think it puts you at that hit point total, with Tough giving you more maximum health as you retain its benefits which can be healed up for a temporarily tougher Wild Shape.

Id say the specific overrules the general and your HP are the forms HP regardless of the tough feat.

Also, onion druids are already OP, no need to give them more!

[Ferrin33]

Id say the specific overrules the general and your HP are the forms HP regardless of the tough feat.

Also, onion druids are already OP, no need to give them more!

Toughness has your maximum hit points increased of which the benefit(feats being part of "other sources") are retained in Wild Shape. When Wild Shaping you assume the beast's hit points and Hit Dice, which is the general with Toughness being the specific. Another way to see it is that Wild Shape does not mention maximum hit points(partially due to it being out of place in the text I suspect) so the benefits of Toughness would still raise your maximum hit points in Wild Shape, but not your assumed current hit point total.

So basically the questions are;

1. Is Toughness retained as a feat under the line of "other sources"?
2. Is Wild Shape as a specific rule of assuming a new hit point total overwriting the Toughness' feat increase of maximum hit points?
3. Is Toughness as a specific rule of increasing your maximum hit point total overwriting the Wild Shape's hit point total?

Which is the general rule and which the specific for numbers two and three. Either question depends on whether you even retain feats in Wild Shape as they may not count as "other sources".

[Tenmujiin]

"When you transform, you assume the beast's hit points and Hit Dice."



Wait, you gain the beast's HD. Does this mean that you basically get extra healing if your beast form lasts past a single encounter?

As for tough I would say that having it increase the max HP of the form but not the amount you start on seems reasonable.

[Ferrin33]

Wait, you gain the beast's HD. Does this mean that you basically get extra healing if your beast form lasts past a single encounter?

As for tough I would say that having it increase the max HP of the form but not the amount you start on seems reasonable.

Hmm, if I remember correctly you gain Hit Dice to be used in short rests for healing after finishing a long rest. So this wouldn't work properly until after 18th level and you got a form with more HD than you have as a player for it to have any effect.

Edit: For clarification; 18th level for 9 hours of Wild Shape to get you through the long rest. I guess being an elf at 10th level also works?

[Gnomes2169]

Tough only works with levels (as stated multiple times in the feat when it references levels, not hit dice). In 5e, levels and hit dice are not the same thing, so no. Your onion druid cannot gain the benefits of a level-only ability on his temporary hit dice.

[Ferrin33]

Tough only works with levels (as stated multiple times in the feat when it references levels, not hit dice). In 5e, levels and hit dice are not the same thing, so no. Your onion druid cannot gain the benefits of a level-only ability on his temporary hit dice.

Tough only counts the level you had when acquiring the Tough feat and any levels gained thereafter, not your current level. So regardless of the existence or non-existence of levels in any form you assume with Wild Shape the only thing that matters is what I pointed out earlier.

Had to recheck to be sure though, would have been a clear solution to the problem.

Edit: After a careful reading of Tough again it mentions it increases your maximum health when you gain the feat and whenever you gain a level. Having the feat only lets you add more to your maximum health when you gain more levels after its initial increase. Wild Shape replaces your current hit point total with the new one. So regardless of whether you have the feat or not Tough does nothing for a new hit point total you assume.

[Gnomes2169]

That still doesn't change the fact that 5e monster hit dice are not levels (in fact, I'm more than certain that it is explicitly stated that monsters/ creatures in the MM do not have levels, they have hit dice instead), so they would not gain a benefit from the feat that modifies levels only.

And since Wild Shape replaces your level hit point pool with a monster's hit dice and the associated pool, you would not be able to add double your level to your animal form's hp pool. You simply don't have any levels to add with while in Wild Shape form.

Aaaaand you edited to basically say what I said, so scrubbed.

[Ferrin33]

That still doesn't change the fact that 5e monster hit dice are not levels (in fact, I'm more than certain that it is explicitly stated that monsters/ creatures in the MM do not have levels, they have hit dice instead), so they would not gain a benefit from the feat that modifies levels only.

And since Wild Shape replaces your level hit point pool with a monster's hit dice and the associated pool, you would not be able to add double your level to your animal form's hp pool. You simply don't have any levels to add with while in Wild Shape form.

I edited my post why I think it doesn't work after some careful reading. It has nothing to do with whether or not the shape you assume has levels or not though. Tough does not say "Your maximum hit point total is increased by an amount equal to twice your character level." It only has an effect when you acquire the feat, and every time you level while you have the feat.

Edit: Not quite what you said, very careful wording is required! :D

[Gnomes2169]

Well, since you still can't take levels in terrasque, dragon or kobold, their hit dice still don't count as levels... Buuuut your interpretation of the rules works too.

[Ferrin33]

Well, since you still can't take levels in terrasque, dragon or kobold, their hit dice still don't count as levels... Buuuut your interpretation of the rules works too.

Well, I go strictly by the RAW when looking at these things, and see how silly things get by doing that.

For monster levels to be relevant Tough needs to be rewritten, so your argument doesn't work with the RAW. If it would be written "Your maximum health is increased by an amount equal to twice your (character) level." your POV would be one interpretation of why it would not work, the counterargument to that would be that you still retain your own level while Wild Shaped. If going by your interpretation in this circumstance then any spell cast by an 18th level or higher druid in Wild Shape is cast as a level 0 character, meaning offensive cantrips cast like this do not have the increased effects they gain at 5th, 11th and 17th level.

[Gnomes2169]

"Character" level is not a concept in 5e, it's just a hold out from 3e/4e where you had to differentiate it from Racial hit dice, caster level, initiator level, manifester level, binder level, etc, etc. In 5e you just have "level", and only creatures with a class have it. It does lead to a much more simple ordering system over all, as all the unnecessary level titles disappear.

Heck, even creatures with casting abilities that reference that they cast as a class of level X typically are not members of that class, so even they don't have a "level" to themselves. They have a CR, hit dice pool (that is based on thier size, not their percieved abilities or role) and they have a proficiency bonus completely divorced from their hit dice pool, but they do not have a level. Levels are reserved for PC's only, and maybe a DM PC or BBEG, but that's it.

[Ferrin33]

"Character" level is not a concept in 5e, it's just a hold out from 3e/4e where you had to differentiate it from Racial hit dice, caster level, initiator level, manifester level, binder level, etc, etc. In 5e you just have "level", and only creatures with a class have it. It does lead to a much more simple ordering system over all, as all the unnecessary level titles disappear.

Heck, even creatures with casting abilities that reference that they cast as a class of level X typically are not members of that class, so even they don't have a "level" to themselves. They have a CR, hit dice pool (that is based on thier size, not their percieved abilities or role) and they have a proficiency bonus completely divorced from their hit dice pool, but they do not have a level. Levels are reserved for PC's only, and maybe a DM PC or BBEG, but that's it.

Hence why I put character like I did, as (character) level, which was unnecessary in hindsight.

Do you agree with me besides that though? If not, can you elaborate on why?

[rlc]

i don't know if i'd say that character level is no longer a thing. multiclassing is still possible.

[Beleriphon]

i don't know if i'd say that character level is no longer a thing. multiclassing is still possible.

Yeah, but its still level 10 with 5 levels x/5 levels y.

[rlc]

yeah, so that'd be character level 10.
"Your levels in all your classes are added together to determine your character level" (basic rules, p 56).

[Gnomes2169]

Hence why I put character like I did, as (character) level, which was unnecessary in hindsight.

Do you agree with me besides that though? If not, can you elaborate on why?

I agree beyond that, I just thought you were saying/ implying that RHD were levels, and that was what I was objecting to. It's good otherwise.



yeah, so that'd be character level 10.
"Your levels in all your classes are added together to determine your character level" (basic rules, p 56).

Which is only relevant if you use the multiclassing variant. :P

[Ferrin33]

I agree beyond that, I just thought you were saying/ implying that RHD were levels, and that was what I was objecting to. It's good otherwise.

Which is only relevant if you use the multiclassing variant. :P

Oh no, I wasn't implying that at all, what made you think that? But at least the mystery of Wild Shape + Tough is solved.