Hold Portal?

[Nad]

After his guardians were defeated, a duegar priest threw down a Daern's Instant Fortress and has made it inside despite the PC's throwing a grapple, a lasso and a hold person at him. The Wizard had readied a scroll of Hold Portal and declared he was using it on the door of the fortress as the priest stepped inside. Due to time constraints, we called that the stop of the game.

I tried to read up and currently I'm going to rule that the door is not affected by hold portal but I know they'll say otherwise.

Thoughts?

[DaMullet]

Pardon, wha? You mean, the priest dropped his DIF, and hadn't gone inside yet, and the PC was going to Hold the door of it so he couldn't get in?

My initial thought after reading your post was, "That's ingenious, don't penalize that." But then I went on the SRD and checked the description.
I direct you all to two passages from the text:

The fortress has a small door that opens only at the command of the owner of the fortress—even knock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/knock.htm) spells can’t open the door.

The door opens and closes instantly at his command.
I think the answer is clear: The PCs, sadly enough, cannot stop him from going inside by magical means, unless they have another Hold Person ready.

[Variable Arcana]

I'm not sure I understand the setup.

What's the order of events:
A: Priest invokes Fortress
B: Wizard gets out and readies a scroll of Hold Portal
C: Priest commands the door to open, enters the fortress, and commands the door to close
D: Wizard casts Hold Portal from scroll

or was it B,A,D -- to prevent C?

[Meat Shield]

Yes, but if a PC cast Knock spell would not work, why would a Hold Portal? I view those two spells as the same but opposite - if one has no effect, the other should not. Its an inventive idea on the PCs part, but I think it would not work.

[Person_Man]

Why would the Wizard ready an action to use the Hold Portal once the evil priest stepped inside? Why not just read the scroll, locking the door open (assuming it worked on that door)?

Or better yet, just cast Grease on the Cleric. Ref Save or fall Prone, and he must make a Balance (not a Cleric Skill, with an Armor Check penalty) check just to move at half speed.

[Ominous]

I'm under the impression from what you wrote that your players think Hold Portal will hold the door open. Is this correct? If so, that's not how the spell works.

[cupkeyk]

I think he means it will hold it closed so the d00d can't get in...

[Nad]

Sorry to not make it clear, let me try and set it straight:

The evil priest just stepped inside and while he is using his full round to enter the fortress by withdrawing, at the same time, the wizard is casting hold portal on the door. At the end of his round, the evil priest will use a free action to command the door to close.

The wizard had readied a scroll of hold portal as soon as the priest took out the fortress. He knew that the evil priest had this item, they've seen it before and I'm pretty sure the wizard scribed this scroll just for this. Since it's readied, he's going to take an action to read it and that puts hold portal cast before the priest is all the way inside.

They tried everything to keep him from going inside (including a lasso :smalleek: ) but it didn't work.

I'm currently considering three options:

1. It works and the door stays open
2. It doesn't work, the door slams shut and they have to deal with the priest again
3. It works for one round

[Jack Mann]

Hold portal doesn't work that way. If it were closed, it might (though I'd tend to think that the magic inherent in the fortress would let it force the door closed), but it isn't capable of holding a door open. That's just not what the spell does.

[Ethdred]

Yep, that plan is a non-starter because that's not how the spell works. If they were planning to use the spell to keep the door closed and stop him going inside, then I would have ruled that it worked - my version of Rule 0.1 "Funny or inventive ideas should always work"

[Dausuul]

Sorry to not make it clear, let me try and set it straight:

The evil priest just stepped inside and while he is using his full round to enter the fortress by withdrawing, at the same time, the wizard is casting hold portal on the door. At the end of his round, the evil priest will use a free action to command the door to close.

The wizard had readied a scroll of hold portal as soon as the priest took out the fortress. He knew that the evil priest had this item, they've seen it before and I'm pretty sure the wizard scribed this scroll just for this. Since it's readied, he's going to take an action to read it and that puts hold portal cast before the priest is all the way inside.

They tried everything to keep him from going inside (including a lasso :smalleek: ) but it didn't work.

I'm currently considering three options:

1. It works and the door stays open
2. It doesn't work, the door slams shut and they have to deal with the priest again
3. It works for one round

If the wizard scribed the scroll with this specific situation in mind, I'd allow the player to trade the scroll in and get the gold/XP back, or at least swap it for a different spell. The character would know that this couldn't work even if the player didn't.

OTOH, maybe it would work. It certainly doesn't by RAW, but in this situation I'd be tempted to rule that it's a clever and innovative enough use of the spell, and close enough to what it actually does, that I'd let it happen. If only so I could say I'd played in a game where somebody actually cast hold portal.

I think #3 is the best compromise. The party can exploit the advantage, but they have to be fast!

[Piccamo]

If the wizard scribed the scroll with this specific situation in mind, I'd allow the player to trade the scroll in and get the gold/XP back, or at least swap it for a different spell. The character would know that this couldn't work even if the player didn't.

How would the character know this?

[kamikasei]

How would the character know this?

How would a highly intelligent wizard devoted to mastery of the arcane arts know the capabilities and limitations of one of his spells, you mean?

[Piccamo]

How would a highly intelligent wizard devoted to mastery of the arcane arts know the capabilities and limitations of one of his spells, you mean?

No. How would a highly intelligent wizard devoted to mastery of the arcane arts know the capabilities and limitations of a magic item he may not have studied up on? It should probably be a knowledge(arcana) check rather than just assuming knowledge :smalltongue:

[Fixer]

Ok, if the priest is already in the tower then a hold portal spell just keeps out the players and won't hold the door closed or open (if anything, the spell will close the door).

Now, if the PCs created the scroll for the sole purpose of keeping a door held open (and stated such when they made it, although they didn't have to state precisely the DIF door, just any door) I would rule (if I was GM) that it was a single-use custom magic item that would function with the duration of Hold Portal and the effect of just keeping the door open and it just happened to use the Hold Portal spell as a prerequisite.

HOWEVER!

The bottom line is to allow whatever will best serve your storyline unless the PCs outclevered you. Plot-necessary NPCs can be ressurrected, but giving the players handouts should not be encouraged.

[kamikasei]

No. How would a highly intelligent wizard devoted to mastery of the arcane arts know the capabilities and limitations of a magic item he may not have studied up on? It should probably be a knowledge(arcana) check rather than just assuming knowledge :smalltongue:

He's trying to use Hold Portal to hold a door open, which is something it can't do. The type of the door isn't really relevant.

[Piccamo]

He's trying to use Hold Portal to hold a door open, which is something it can't do. The type of the door isn't really relevant.
I agree with that, I thought you meant the spell working on the fortress in general.

[Quietus]

I'd probably let it go. It doesn't say the door can't be held open, and if the scroll was prepared specifically for this situation and the wizard who made it knew that, and knew that a DIF wouldn't normally work like that, I'd call for a spellcraft check to make the scroll altered in just such a way so that instead of holding it shut, it held it open.

Of course, there's nothing saying they can't make it hold the door of the DIF shut. If you're feeling particularly vindictive, you could give them a caster level check against 11+DIF's caster level (Total DC would be 24) to make it work, but there's nothing at all saying it shouldn't work to hold the door close. Not that the BBEG is going to be too concerned about your minutes/level spell, anyway.

[AMX]

Wait a second...

The Wizard had readied a scroll of Hold Portal and declared he was using it on the door of the fortress as the priest stepped inside.

The wizard had readied a scroll of hold portal as soon as the priest took out the fortress. He knew that the evil priest had this item, they've seen it before and I'm pretty sure the wizard scribed this scroll just for this. Since it's readied, he's going to take an action to read it and that puts hold portal cast before the priest is all the way inside.
Are you sure the wiz is trying to keep the door open?
Because it kinda sounds like he's trying to force the door to close on top of the priest...

[Fixer]

Wait a second...


Are you sure the wiz is trying to keep the door open?
Because it kinda sounds like he's trying to force the door to close on top of the priest...
Yeah, that is what it sounds like.

If that is the case (as an ad hoc ruling) I'd allow the duergar a Ref save (DC based on the Hold Portal spell) to escape 1d3 bludgeoning damage (due to the readied action). If the duergar fails the save, the wizard gets to pick on which side of the door he ends up and if the duergar passes the duergar gets to choose.

[its_all_ogre]

i would not allow it cause once allowed you have set a precedence and the spell must always work that way from this day forth.
nice plan though!

[Fixer]

The GM can rule that under these particular circumstances (prior planning for a specific situation, like readying an action to cast a spell for a specific effect) the spell can be used in this manner. Compared to some ad hoc decisions I've heard of this one is not game-breaking. It is not even game-bending.

Where do you see the negatives in allowing such a ruling?

[Nad]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

This was a normal hold portal scroll. Specifically prepared to hold a door, per the spell description, in no way related to DIF. However, it's still a prepared hold portal scroll, something I like to see a wizard doing other than magic missle, scorching ray, /repeat

I'd really like to reward him with being the hero so he continues to make useful scrolls but I have one question:

When a DIF pops up, is the door open or closed?

If it's closed, I'm going to let him get it off since it is not specifically stated that hold portal won't work. If they win the battle and get the DIF this may be a way for me to keep them from running into it later! :smallbiggrin:

If it's open, the priest is going to slip inside and they'll have to figure out what to do then.

*Note*
This is not part of the plot, this was designed as a side quest for them to possibly gain a DIF. So there is no mandatory priest slaying involved and I'm not about to let them just have it.

As usual, thanks to everyone for reading/commenting! :smallamused:

[Fixer]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

This was a normal hold portal scroll. Specifically prepared to hold a door, per the spell description, in no way related to DIF. However, it's still a prepared hold portal scroll, something I like to see a wizard doing other than magic missle, scorching ray, /repeat

I'd really like to reward him with being the hero so he continues to make useful scrolls but I have one question:

When a DIF pops up, is the door open or closed?

If it's closed, I'm going to let him get it off since it is not specifically stated that hold portal won't work. If they win the battle and get the DIF this may be a way for me to keep them from running into it later! :smallbiggrin:

If it's open, the priest is going to slip inside and they'll have to figure out what to do then.
From the WoTC SRD:


Instant Fortress: This metal cube is small, but when activated by speaking a command word it grows to form a tower 20 feet square and 30 feet high, with arrow slits on all sides and a crenellated battlement atop it. The metal walls extend 10 feet into the ground, rooting it to the spot and preventing it from being tipped over. The fortress has a small door that opens only at the command of the owner of the fortress—even knock spells can’t open the door.
The adamantine walls of instant fortress have 100 hit points and hardness 20. The fortress cannot be repaired except by a wish or a miracle, which restores 50 points of damage taken.
The fortress springs up in just 1 round, with the door facing the device’s owner. The door opens and closes instantly at his command. People and creatures nearby (except the owner) must be careful not to be caught by the fortress’s sudden growth. Anyone so caught takes 10d10 points of damage (Reflex DC 19 half ).
The fortress is deactivated by speaking a command word (different from the one used to activate it). It cannot be deactivated unless it is empty.
Strong conjuration; CL 13th; Craft Wondrous Item, mage’s magnificent mansion; Price 55,000 gp.

As I read this, the door is facing the owner and can be either open or closed at the choice of the owner as it 'opens and closes instantly at his command'. I suppose it would depend on how you want it to be as it is unclear. As a default for future adventures I'd say that the status of the door when it was deactived is how it is when it is reactivated. If you want the players to get the DIF, let it be closed and require another command from the duergar to open it (speaking a command word is a standard action, I believe). If you want to take it the other way, make it already open and let the caster get his chance to shut the door on the duergar.

[That Lanky Bugger]

I would personally rule that the spell doesn't work, because (as per the DIF entry) Knock spells don't work. Presumably if Knock doesn't work, neither would Hold Portal. However if you're going to try to encourage creative tactics, let it snap the door shut on the Duergar's face if they fail a Reflex Save DC versus the spell. Make sure that if the Duergar gets in, your players know it was the spell that slammed it shut and a Reflex save which got the Duergar in.

[Fixer]

I would personally rule that the spell doesn't work, because (as per the DIF entry) Knock spells don't work. Presumably if Knock doesn't work, neither would Hold Portal. However if you're going to try to encourage creative tactics, let it snap the door shut on the Duergar's face if they fail a Reflex Save DC versus the spell. Make sure that if the Duergar gets in, your players know it was the spell that slammed it shut and a Reflex save which got the Duergar in.
Please help me understand your logic on the comparison.

How is a Knock spell (Transmutation, 2nd level, instantaneous duration) similar to a Hold Portal (Abjuration, 1st level, 1 min/level duration) spell?
I can understand why a transmutation spell wouldn't work on an adamantine size-morphed object (too magical already, size too large, etc), but why not an abjuration spell?
AFAIK no other spells are limited against a DIF so why add to the list?
Would the owner be allowed to cast Hold Portal on the doorway if they wished to do so and if not, why not?

[That Lanky Bugger]

Simple, Fixer... Knock negates Hold Portal. I would assume that if the spell which opens a door doesn't work, the weaker level spell which holds a door shut (and is countered by the spell mentioned specifically as not working) wouldn't work either. Likewise, the door opens and shuts at the owner's command and the owner's command only. Any effect which negates that, especially a first level spell, would fail.

It doesn't mention it specifically, but... GM fiat. That's just my own logic, though. You don't necessarily have to agree.

[Fixer]

No, I don't, and I also will do the decency of explaining why as well.

When an item is immune to a spell (or spell-like ability) or a given set of spells (or spell-like abilities) it is always stated somewhere. In this particular example, DIF specifies "knock spells" as a group of spells. The purpose of the group of knock spells is to open something that would not normally be open in a way that doesn't involve brute force. In addition, the entire theme of the DIF is to protect what's inside from being reached.

A Hold Portal spell is not attempting to open something nor is it attempting to reach something inside the DIF. If anything, the magic runs in parallel to the purpose of the item by attempting to seal and protect what it inside. If the owner was to cast a Hold Portal spell on the front door, I can see no reason not to allow it.

The argument of denying based on knock being the counterspell of hold portal would open the door to denying other spells based on their counterspells. In an area where darkness spells cannot be cast, disallowing light spells because they are the counterspell, for example. Or an item that prevents Remove Curse spells prevented from being targeted by Bestow Curse spells simply because that is how they are counterspelled.

The counterspell argument simply doesn't hold as much water for me, I am afraid. You will, of course, run your own games as you see fit. If I was one of your players, however, this would be a rules disagreement for the reasons stated.

[Quincunx]

That is a bummer.

Spinning an idea out of thin air: have the door slam shut, thanks to the extra push given by the scroll, onto one of the priest's limbs as it sweeps him inside. Impose a slight penalty to the priest in the next encounter: flat-footedness if they can break into the mansion, penalized speed if a foot got mashed, one-handed spellcasting if a hand got mashed (with an otherwise usable weapon hanging at his belt to make the point).

[Emperor Tippy]

Sure. Hold Portal could hold the door of a DIF closed. Until the owner wanted to open it. The door opens and closes instantly at the owners command. Per a strict reading of the RAW no matter what is blocking the door (even an iron golem trying to hold it open or closed) wouldn't matter if the owner wanted the door to do the opposite.

[stupidmonkey]

Personally, I am of the "Let it work" arguement. For a few reasons:

1) As Ethred said, Funny or inventive ideas should always work. Once.
2) You said you think that he prepared this scroll specifically for this reason
3) Major plotwise, it makes no difference

Why does Hold Portal work when Knock doesn't? Several reasons:
1) The DIF item is naturally tuned to keep people out, so the door doesn't open
2) The cleric is surprised at the action (this works well for the one free round decision)and doesnt think to open the door right away
or 3) The cleric thinks it does work and doesnt try to open the door, but runs away when infact the spell didnt work and the DIF is unaffected at all

[Kantolin]

Personally, as it's questionable, I'd let the Hold Portal work purely because the wizard attempted to have hold portal on the ready for just this occasion.

I mean, the fact that knock can't open it doesn't mean that hold portal cannot close it. And since it's questionable, I'd vote in favor of the creative. ^_^ I mean, who keeps hold portal handy?

[Cobra]

Personally I'd say that the door starts out closed, thus making it hold portalable. Its a fortress... I just don't see those as being open to whomever.

Imagine if the user plopped it down, and somebody ran inside it before he could. That would be a bit silly. It should start out closed, and he can open it, slip in, and close it on the user's turn.

[Quietus]

Ah, if they're trying to keep the door CLOSED, then yes, I'd definately let it work. That's what Hold Portal DOES. What precedent could you possibly be setting with this? That Hold Portal can close a door? It does that anyway!

Definately let it work, though if you want to be stingy, as I said before, make some kind of opposed caster level check - the wizard opposing the priest (who uses the Clvl13 of the DIF).

[Nad]

Fixer, your analysis is very in depth and a little scary with detail but thank you! :smallsmile:

Cobra, you make a very good point.

Here's the final decision:

In the previous round the priest got the DIF out and activated it, the door was closed. During the remaining part of the round, the wizard used his scroll of Hold Portal. The spell works and holds the door closed. The priest, expecting the door to open, is already walking to the door but it doesn't open as he says the command word. (Move Action & Free Action) He then shouts the command word again as loud as he can and the door bursts open negating the hold portal spell. (Ruling that forcing the door open is invoking a spell like ability of the DIF and DIF Magic > Hold Portal) (Standard Action)

The priest is now at the mouth of the door and due to the Wizard's quick thinking, they have one more round to try and finish him off. (If they don't kill him this round, they don't deserve the DIF!)

Thank you all for your feedback and comments! :smallredface: