Why is Gestalt so popular? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Thrice Dead Cat

2014-09-21, 02:55 PM

It's the ultimate theurge, the ultimate gish, or the ultimate skill monkey.
Although I've never seen or played a game with it

Basically this. While I love playing two-in-one characters without gestalt, the variant adds an extra degree of freedom and flexibility not otherwise possible. Although I am not a huge fan of the variant simply due to how much stronger a given PC may be (both in terms of passive defensive abilities - typically, better HP and saves - and more active ability options - more skills, skill points, "attack" options), if given the option I'll take it. If I was going to play a typical arcane gish or psionic/arcane theurge before gestalt was added, with gestalt, I may be able to toss all three of those things into the blender!

Then there's this mess made possible by lax gestalt rules. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=3945177&postcount=38) Sadly, the table is borked due to the site changes.

Theomniadept

2014-09-21, 02:56 PM

Gestalt is basically what they invented to allow for parties too small to function effectively. A Fighter and a Rogue are a good pair, but it's too small to do most campaign stuff, like fighting groups of enemies. Gestalt is nice but can lead to some SERIOUS power gaps.

The idea is something like a Fighter/Barbarian can have enough feats for defensive stuff (like Improved Toughness, Improves Trip, etc.) with Barbarian strength for damage output, or a Rogue/Swashbuckler for full skillmonker + full BAB power.

However if you factor in the tier list, playing a Fighter/Knight would not be as powerful as straight Barbarian, while a Wizard/Druid would arbitrarily win the game.

Kaje

2014-09-21, 03:02 PM

Because suddenly I can make a gish who's a gish from level 1, instead of a squishy wizard who suddenly picks up a sword or a dumb fighter who suddenly can make a magic missile.

Thrice Dead Cat

2014-09-21, 03:06 PM

Because suddenly I can make a gish who's a gish from level 1, instead of a squishy wizard who suddenly picks up a sword or a dumb fighter who suddenly can make a magic missile.

To be fair, both the Bard and Duskblade can do that from level one, too.:smalltongue:

eggynack

2014-09-21, 03:07 PM

However if you factor in the tier list, playing a Fighter/Knight would not be as powerful as straight Barbarian, while a Wizard/Druid would arbitrarily win the game.
That's really mostly because a wizard or druid would arbitrarily win the game, more than because a wizard and druid combo is somehow insane. I'd probably rather have something with serious synergy, like a wizard//factotum, or a druid//swordsage, or even a druid//factotum, just cause actions are good. Ya gotta get that passive//active mix in, or otherwise just have so many actions that you can fit all the active you want. Something with psionics can pull that off, and I suppose druids and wizards can kinda do some of it.

Der_DWSage

2014-09-21, 03:12 PM

I like to think that it's not really the power addition, nor the fact that you can make abominations that cast EVERYTHING. I think it's more the fact that you suddenly have so many options that you would otherwise have to painfully multiclass for, or hope a class does exactly what you want. And while two Barbarian Uberchargers will look and play very similarly to each other, a Barbarian/Fighter gestalt and a Barbarian/Knight gestalt will be rather different, despite Fighter and Knight being fairly similar to each other. Similarly, two Wizards who focus on playing God will also play and act similarly-but a Wizard/Archivist might have fun being a god, while a Wizard/Factotum will enjoy solving everything ever.

It's the flexibility and customization, rather than the power, that's such a draw. (Or at least it is to me.)

Anlashok

2014-09-21, 03:17 PM

Flexibility. It gives a ton of it, allowing you to create characters that would otherwise be difficult to realize or take too long to come online.

but for the vast majority of situations, it is simply too powerful to remain interesting for long.
Meh. That's user error. Either the DM is failing to come up with appropriate encounters or the players are abusing stupid ****, and frankly neither is specific to gestalt.

Necroticplague

2014-09-21, 03:29 PM

One thing that hasn't been brought up is being a monster. The RHD and LA system makes it very hard to play anything that isn't a baseline humanoid, because you give up a lot of class levels. If you're playing gestalt, you can shove that LA/RHD to one side, and still have an actual class of the other.

Of course, similar ideas for other parts in the system is what makes gestalt appealing to me. There's a lot of nice little things I would like for my build, but can't actually do because it would detract too much from my main build. Gestalt means I can take that stuff, and make more rounded characters. Heck, with the way saves work, it even encourages it. Go ahead, dip that monk level for a backup weapon, it won't hurt your BAB. Why not add some Thayan Gladiator to your natural weapon user, now that you don't have to give up Soul Eater to get it?

Divide by Zero

2014-09-21, 03:31 PM

Because having more options is more fun. Also, it gives classes that have really good synergy with other classes but are lackluster on their own a chance to shine. Marshal, Fighter, even Monk can all be strong choices in gestalt with the right partner class.

Threadnaught

2014-09-21, 03:55 PM

I'd probably rather have something with serious synergy, like a wizard//factotum, or a druid//swordsage, or even a druid//factotum,

What about Druid//Monk? Come on, you know Monk has lots to add. :smallwink:

It's supposed to be about giving a smaller party more options so they can better mimic a larger party, but it can be used for other things. In the examples alone, which are kinda silly, there's benefits to all of them albeit mostly small benefits.

eggynack

2014-09-21, 04:00 PM

What about Druid//Monk? Come on, you know Monk has lots to add. :smallwink:

Well, yeah. Definitely does, at least for a bit. Just less than factotum or unarmed swordsage, and probably also less than wizard. There's something to be said for using a druid's wild shape, animal companion, and long duration spells as the passive side for a wizard's crazy magic power. Actually sounds a bit better to me than something like wizard//cleric, despite the presence of DMM persist.

Edit: Kinda warming up on the whole druid//wizard thing, come to think of it, especially if you're running aberration wild shape. Casting double wizard spells each round or tossing spells from either the ethereal plane or from an anti-magic puff ball is neat stuff.

Extra Anchovies

2014-09-21, 04:13 PM

What about Druid//Monk? Come on, you know Monk has lots to add. :smallwink:

Well, you're probably better off going Druid//Psion, nab Monastic Training (Psion) at 1st level, Tashalatora at 3rd, and focus your powers known list on action economy abuse.

ETA: A question. Shadowcasters can fill the divine half of Mystic Theurge. If you took Wizard//Shadowcaster for 3 levels, and maxed Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana), and Knowledge (Religion), you'd qualify for both Noctumancer and Mystic Theurge. If you then took Noctumancer//Mystic Theurge for 1 level, would you have 5th-level wizard and shadow casting as a 4th level character? If this works, you could potentially cast as a 19th-level wizard and a 19th-level shadowcaster by character level 11. And you'd be gaining a new spell level at every character level, too!

Of course, this probably would get books thrown at you even by your fellow players, but it's an interesting concept.

Dalebert

2014-09-21, 04:17 PM

... a Wizard/Druid would arbitrarily win the game.

The one time I played it, I played a Sorcerer/Druid and I was effective but not the most obnoxious character. This was a game that started out with few players but gradually picked up some so that gestault was getting to be a bit much.

sleepyphoenixx

2014-09-21, 04:20 PM

Well, yeah. Definitely does, at least for a bit. Just less than factotum or unarmed swordsage, and probably also less than wizard. There's something to be said for using a druid's wild shape, animal companion, and long duration spells as the passive side for a wizard's crazy magic power. Actually sounds a bit better to me than something like wizard//cleric, despite the presence of DMM persist.

Edit: Kinda warming up on the whole druid//wizard thing, come to think of it, especially if you're running aberration wild shape. Casting double wizard spells each round or tossing spells from either the ethereal plane or from an anti-magic puff ball is neat stuff.

DMM:Persist is kind of a waste on a wizard/divine gestalt anyway since you can just take 3 levels of Incantatrix. Not only less limited but you save at least one feat too. Or just take Sacred Exorcist if you absolutely need to have DMM.

You can also combine druid//wizard with stuff like Swiftblade for great defensive buffs and even more actions, more Incantatrix for even worse metamagic abuse, Hathran for Circle Magic and Rashemi Spirit Magic without losing druid progression... all those caster PrCs suddenly look a lot more attractive when you get them in addition to full druid progression.

MAD isn't much of an issue when you can get to base Int 30 by using PAO to Sarrukh form. It's not like anyone will notice under your wild shape form.

Dr. Cliché

2014-09-21, 04:24 PM

Well, in my group it's quite popular because there's only 3 players (plus the DM) - so, it's a useful way to make up for the lack of a 4th player.

Other than that, it's a nice way to mess around with classes/options that might otherwise be too level-intensive to use.

Alternatively, if there's a class you'd like to use but are dubious about, you can mix them in with a better class - so you know you'll be good at something. :smallwink:

deuxhero

2014-09-21, 04:24 PM

1: Outside of corner cases like gestalt actually being one class and if this means all of a Paladin//Healer's Healer slots are "Paladin spellslots" (which is caused by how badly defined X spell slots is in the first place), it's pretty easy to understand.
2: For its simplicity, it does what it was intended to do: Boost parties with less than 4 characters
3: It's, weirdly enough, not that much worse than single class tier 1s at the higher end. Outside of Factotum 8+//int based class.
3b: Gestalt means most characters have 2 good saves (if not all 3)
4: Makes the obnoxious "the party needs a skill monkey/healer/someone who won't die if the enemies breath on them/whatever" much less present so allows for more variety of builds.
5: It makes some weaker classes useful. Monk is actually very useful in gestalt. While the low tier gestalt rules suggestion in the tier lists doesn't fix the gap between tier 2 and 3 (except potentially something like gestalting Paladin and Healer then using the Healer's slots for Sword of the Arcane Order), it helps the gap between the lower tiers a lot. A Warblade gains little from a gestalt (He gets 2 good saves and either a few more skill points or some utility spells he can't cast in his armor), a Ranger getting actually relevant casting that can be used to cast Wizard spells does a good deal for it, and a Swashbuckler who is really good at holding the line have a much lower power gap than a Warblade, Ranger and Swashbuckler do.

Chronos

2014-09-21, 05:17 PM

Jeff the Green

2014-09-21, 05:55 PM

I don't think gestalt is actually all that popular at gaming tables. Where it is popular is forums like this one. This is, I think, because the sorts of people who hang out on D&D message boards like complicated things, and gestalt allows for a lot more complication.

Also because it staves off boredom better. It basically squares the number of possible builds, and increases the number of viable builds by even more. As Necroticplague said, monsters suddenly become viable even with their atrocious LA and RHD if you can stick on something to give you HD, skills, BAB, etc.

Milo v3

2014-09-21, 06:23 PM

I've used gestalt to give everyone superpowers, in addition to their normal classes. I would've used it when my group was only 3 people if they weren't new to 3.X's rules.

Currently at least one of my players has asked if we can do gestalt in our next campaign since it'd help him make his character concepts more accurately.

Drelua

2014-09-21, 07:18 PM

I really like gestalt, mainly because it allows me to make a character with a broader set of skills. A lot of the time, when I make a character, I feel like I'm sacrificing some of the things that I'd like my character to be able to do because I can't fit all of them into one build. Whenever I try to make a build for a well developed character from a book or a TV show, I feel like I need gestalt to be able to build something that can do all the things that character can do without resorting to an unreasonably high level.

I do find that it breaks down a bit at higher levels with moderate optimization. I started a gestalt one-shot game at level 20 with both 3.5 and Pathfinder stuff, and either one of the party members could kill pretty much anything we saw in one round. My character was a TWFer, which is far from being an optimal choice, but he could easily do three or four hundred damage in a turn, and the DM didn't really have time to build all of our enemies, so he had to take monsters from the Epic Level Handbook with CRs into the thirties just to challenge us at all.

This is why I'd really like to try a gestalt E6 game sometime. It seems a bit weird combining a low-powered variant with a high-powered one, but I'd be interested to see how the two balance each other out.

Threadnaught

2014-09-21, 07:54 PM

As Threadnaught said, monsters suddenly become viable even with their atrocious LA and RHD if you can stick on something to give you HD, skills, BAB, etc.

I haven't actually said that in this thread, but Thri-kreen and Domovoi in the same party as a Human, abusing everything they know how/are willing to, looks to be interesting.
MetaMyconid is still annoyed at you Jeff. :smallamused:

I really want to play one myself.

kellbyb

2014-09-21, 08:17 PM

Well, you're probably better off going Druid//Psion, nab Monastic Training (Psion) at 1st level, Tashalatora at 3rd, and focus your powers known list on action economy abuse.

ETA: A question. Shadowcasters can fill the divine half of Mystic Theurge. If you took Wizard//Shadowcaster for 3 levels, and maxed Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana), and Knowledge (Religion), you'd qualify for both Noctumancer and Mystic Theurge. If you then took Noctumancer//Mystic Theurge for 1 level, would you have 5th-level wizard and shadow casting as a 4th level character? If this works, you could potentially cast as a 19th-level wizard and a 19th-level shadowcaster by character level 11. And you'd be gaining a new spell level at every character level, too!

Of course, this probably would get books thrown at you even by your fellow players, but it's an interesting concept.

Dual-progression classes are not allowed as per the SRD.

Fax Celestis

2014-09-21, 08:28 PM

Also there are a lot of concepts that just don't work well outside of gestalt.

Extra Anchovies

2014-09-21, 08:30 PM

Dual-progression classes are not allowed as per the SRD.

Ah, missed the suggested ban on dual-prestiging. Thanks for pointing it out.

master4sword

2014-09-21, 09:11 PM

I like gestalt because it increases the versatility of any given character, giving them further things they can do to contribute and helps make them much less "one-note".

This is why I'd really like to try a gestalt E6 game sometime. It seems a bit weird combining a low-powered variant with a high-powered one, but I'd be interested to see how the two balance each other out.

I've seriously considered running such a thing, but I've got my plate full with my current game right now. Maybe someday.

Xaragos

2014-09-21, 10:35 PM

Personally,

Ultimate flexibility of character concepts. While there are some arguments that it makes the PCs too powerful, if you are playing in a well run campaign, the enemies are gestalt as well and can provide some epic challenges.

I played in an almost 2 year long running gestalt campaign and it was awesome. Everyone had their chance to shine, both mechanically and due to our awesome DM.

I love creating characters and gestalt made pretty much anything I could imagine doable within the rules.

Sartharina

2014-09-21, 10:45 PM

I like it because it gives greater boosts to low-tier classes, while not significantly boosting high-tier classes (Though said high-tier classes may grab lower-tier classes to shore up weaknesses, such as poor HD and bad saves.)

Dragon Shaman/Barbarian comes to mind for me as something awesome you can do with Gestalt.

aleucard

2014-09-22, 05:28 AM

Ah, missed the suggested ban on dual-prestiging. Thanks for pointing it out.

I thought it was just a ban on classes that progress two casting levels (IE: Incantatrix//Bone Knight is valid on a Wizard//Cleric, but Mystic Theurge//Anything is not)?

I like gestalt for the express reason of it being able to take a character concept that you just simply can't do with your current limitations and make it viable, and make the ones you CAN do but too late viable much sooner. Not to mention the potentially interesting RP options to explain why this character has these two classes (Paladin//Rogue, for instance).

GoodbyeSoberDay

2014-09-22, 05:40 AM

RE: Characters get too powerful.

The game breaking options are the same. You just have more of them and bigger numbers, which just means you have to throw bigger and badder monsters at the party. The problem is that differences in optimization level get heavily exacerbated.

If everyone optimizes at about the same level then you can probably just bump whatever CR stuff you were using normally by 2-4. So for instance, the meat grinder of a party I DM'd for my last campaign took on stuff whose CR was approximately ECL+14 (except for NPCs with PC chargen rules, hehehe), but they probably could have handled ECL+10 without gestalt.

Karnith

2014-09-22, 06:18 AM

I thought it was just a ban on classes that progress two casting levels (IE: Incantatrix//Bone Knight is valid on a Wizard//Cleric, but Mystic Theurge//Anything is not)?
Well, there is a rule recommending against allowing dual-progression PrCs, but you also can't take levels in two PrCs at the same time. Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm#classFeatures):

A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.
(Emphasis mine)

Uncle Pine

2014-09-22, 06:48 AM

I think the reason gestalt is popular is that you can get big numbers with almost everything. Unless you build a commoner//CW samurai, you're going to tear through normal encounter without even sweating (note: you can optimize commoner to pretty silly levels so you could actually tear through normal encounter anyway, i.e. if you face a tarrasque at level 1). Gestalt makes building a powerful and/or mixed type character easier and some people don't like having to check more than 5 books to build their non-gestalt character. At the same time, as the optimization ceiling in gestalt games is even higher, master optimizers might find interesting to beat again old challenges in new ways or to beat even harder challenges.

Personally, I think gestalt is too much work because I find it unnecessary: in 8+ years during which I mostly DMed I've never been unable to flesh out an idea I had in my mind or one that my players presented me. If you think about a character concept, any character concept, and put enough effort in it you'd probably end up at least with a high-T3 character without even refluffing. If you start refluffing (which is a completely concept from houseruling, mind you) you'll see gestalt is even more unneeded. I've never played nor DMed a gestalt game though, so YMMV.

2xMachina

2014-09-22, 06:54 AM

More options, more interesting builds. More '"3.5"

aleucard

2014-09-22, 08:32 AM

More '"3.5"

To be perfectly honest, the reasons that differing people both like and hate this variant can be summed up with this statement. All the various things about 3.5 are multiplied against itself, making the things that people like and the things they hate even more prominent. Things that were alright but not really noticeable suddenly now are, as are the things that were mildly annoying but could be overlooked. The things that people come to 3.5 for are suddenly even more prominent than they were previously, as are the things that cause people to run away from it.

It's a fractal of the entire game. Simultaneously.

Whoah. *smokes a joint*

:smallbiggrin:

Rater202

2014-09-22, 09:05 AM

Personally, its too much. It might be interesting to play a few very specialized campaigns like that (IE, a pair of gestalt characters taking on challenges made for a normal 3-5 man party), but for the vast majority of situations, it is simply too powerful to remain interesting for long.
You are aware tha, if you have a full party, you're supposed to boost the enemy encounters by half aain the CR, yes?

Because having more options is more fun. Also, it gives classes that have really good synergy with other classes but are lackluster on their own a chance to shine. Marshal, Fighter, even Monk can all be strong choices in gestalt with the right partner class.

This.

All the crappy classes become highly viable at Gestalt.

Threadnaught

2014-09-22, 09:15 AM

All the various things about 3.5 are multiplied against itself,

You mean like D&D 12.25?

Curmudgeon

2014-09-22, 09:17 AM

My guess: because players like being twice as feat-starved as usual. :smallwink:

Svata

2014-09-22, 09:28 AM

Of course, withoit fractionals, you get lots of silly shuffling around of what level of what gets taken when, in order to maximize saves and BAB. Saves get crazily high even with fractionals, but you'll prevent a Wizard 20//Fighter 1/Psion 19 from having 20 BAB, at least.

A side-effect of the higher saves is that save-or-lose effects effectively get hit with the nerfbat. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, mind you, though it can be somewhat frustrating for a player who uses them.

Fax Celestis

2014-09-22, 09:35 AM

Of course, withoit fractionals, you get lots of silly shuffling around of what level of what gets taken when, in order to maximize saves and BAB. Saves get crazily high even with fractionals, but you'll prevent a Wizard 20//Fighter 1/Psion 19 from having 20 BAB, at least.

Anyone who lets that happen anyway is an idiot. "Calculate each side and take the better result" is a much more sane option that results in practically the same output for people not interested in shenanigans.

Necroticplague

2014-09-22, 09:58 AM

My guess: because players like being twice as feat-starved as usual. :smallwink:
I can't hear you over the sound of having the levels to dip monk, fighter, and generic warrior.:smallwink:

Cavir

2014-09-22, 10:03 AM

One of my DMs does gestalt for just level 1. I generally don't care for gestalt but one level of it adds a lot of options and flavor without going crazy with gestalt. I like it this mini-version of it.

Extra Anchovies

2014-09-22, 10:09 AM

I can't hear you over the sound of having the levels to dip monk, fighter, and generic warrior.:smallwink:

Hey! You forgot PsyWar and Feat Rogue! Also Ranger goes three-for-three if you count combat style feats. Then a level of Martial Wizard (essentially two feats, because Obtain Familiar exists), and so on...

Vhaidara

2014-09-22, 10:14 AM

I personally love using gestalt for two things: theme builds and monster builds
Theme builds: Truenamer becomes much more functional when you can gestalt skill boosters on the other side. I've also done a Gestalt Binder//Occultist (PF 3rd party Binder). Binder Warlock for selling your soul repeatedly.
Monster builds: Urskan/Bard/Warblade//Bear Master (homebrew class), Half Troll Titanic Awakened Flail Snail of Legend//Telepath/Thrallherd. These just get funny.

And I've actually had some things bouncing around for Tristalt. In particular
Witch (backported from PF)//Spirit Shaman//Sha'ir. Use the same entity for my Spirit Guide, Gen familiar, and Witch familiar. Create the ultimate scion of the spirit realm.

Threadnaught

2014-09-22, 11:00 AM

Half Troll Titanic Awakened Flail Snail of Legend//Telepath/Thrallherd.

Looks like something you found off Minmaxboards. The Titanic part.

Vhaidara

2014-09-22, 12:15 PM

Looks like something you found off Minmaxboards. The Titanic part.

I got the monster classes from there, yes.

sonofzeal

2014-09-22, 08:13 PM

I like Gestalt because it's a lot easier to make characters that match my mental vision, and a lot easier to make unusual visions function well. Gestalt doesn't help T1 classes nearly as much as it helps T3 classes, and it helps T5 even more. Characters can either take secondary classes to cover their weaknesses and set themselves apart, or choose related classes to become far more robust within their specialty. Either way you get effective, evocative, [u]unique[/i] characters.

I DM'd a lvl 4 gestalt game, and I do believe it's the greatest game I ever ran.

Emperor Moth

2014-09-22, 11:51 PM

Because it's fun. Playing gestalt is hard to balance, but it also lets players make more choices, and not even necessarily forcing them to use lots of prestiges and variants to achieve that goal. Wanna be a warrior who casts spells? Just be a warrior... and cast spells. Don't make it so complicated, just be gestalt!

atemu1234

2014-09-23, 06:55 AM

I don't think Wizard//Druid would win the game. Druid//Totemist, however...

Piggy Knowles

2014-09-23, 07:17 AM

What do people think about tier-based gestalt?

If you're playing a Tier 5/6 class, you can gestalt with another tier 5/6 class.

If you're playing a Tier 3/4 class, you can gestalt with an NPC class.

If you're playing a Tier 1/2 class, have fun! (But no gestalt for you...)

EDIT: Note that I've never played the above. It's just something I've seen suggested before, and that I'm genuinely curious about.

Vhaidara

2014-09-23, 07:20 AM

sleepyphoenixx

2014-09-23, 07:23 AM

I don't think Wizard//Druid would win the game. Druid//Totemist, however...

Single classed Druids can already get 14+ natural attacks all on their own. What else does Totemist add that you need more than a 2 level dip for? I'd rather have the utility of wizard casting, even if there isn't all that much synergy between the two.

Vhaidara

2014-09-23, 07:28 AM

Single classed Druids can already get 14+ natural attacks all on their own. What else does Totemist add that you need more than a 2 level dip for? I'd rather have the utility of wizard casting, even if there isn't all that much synergy between the two.

Simple: Things like Heart of Fire and Dread Carapace that buff your Natural Attacks. Further, Incarnum plays to the fact that your ability priority is
Wis>Con>Int>Dex>Cha>Str

atemu1234

2014-09-23, 07:30 AM

Single classed Druids can already get 14+ natural attacks all on their own. What else does Totemist add that you need more than a 2 level dip for? I'd rather have the utility of wizard casting, even if there isn't all that much synergy between the two.

Okay, Druid//Cleric still has decent spellcasting and a lot more synergy. Also, Wild-Shape and Meldshaping. Sounds interesting to me.

toapat

2014-09-23, 07:44 AM

I've found it an interesting idea. My biggest complaint is that gishes are some of the more popular gestalt builds, and you can't really gish under those rules. The best I'm coming up with is Warblade//Adept (or the like)

Paladin//Spellthief is probably the craziest gish you can make with that.

This thread posed the idea for tier based gestalt before and got some refinement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?365051-Tier-Balance-Gestalt-Proposal)

sleepyphoenixx

2014-09-23, 07:48 AM

Okay, Druid//Cleric still has decent spellcasting and a lot more synergy.
Eh, not really. They both cast of Wis and that's pretty much it. You can boost your Int with PaO easily enough for spellcasting purposes and DCs aren't that important anyway when you want it for utility stuff. DMM? Incantatrix does it for less feats with more uses/day and other cool stuff.

What it comes down to in the end is that the wizard list isn't just more versatile and useful (cleric also has lots of overlap with the druid list), you can also get any cleric spell up to 8th level with a 1 level dip into Contemplative (Luck domain).

One favored trick is using your druid side to produce Yellow Musk Zombies then stuff them into Smoky Confinement (CM) for instant minion shenanigans. Use Heroics to get Quick Draw and you can "summon" as many of them per round as you have attacks just by throwing the flasks they're bound in.

Also, Wild-Shape and Meldshaping. Sounds interesting to me.
It is. I'd just rather take Incarnate because it improves things you aren't already gamebreakingly good at. You can get any utility you might need from Totemist out of a 2 level dip.

Andreaz

2014-09-23, 07:49 AM

Flexibility.This, essentially.
As a gestalt I can make far more viable gishes without worrying about the build being crippled until the mid game. Fighty types rev up a bit faster and can hold two or three different build chains to broaden their reach. Caster types likewise, especially if you limit only one side to casting (recommended. As usual there are more ways to break the game with casters than "mundanes", and this is no exception). The only really big flag you have to watch out for is action multipliers. These are exceedingly powerful in normal game, and more so in gestalt.

Overall you have more resources to run the day, which lets you pressure characters more... while also not really giving them more output to end the big fights!

It's really just too fun to play an incarnate//psychic warrior or a warblade//psion, or a crusader//totemist. Or even a Binder//Dragonfire Adept!

Chronos

2014-09-23, 08:57 AM

Tragak

2014-09-23, 09:34 AM

One downside to gestalt, though, is that it can also make it a lot harder to realize many character concepts. Suppose I want a subtle, stealthy thief who relies only on his wits. I don't want a thief who also slings spells, I don't want a thief with magical glowing blue things all over his body, I don't want a thief who's also a master swordsman, I just want a thief. OK, I could do something like rogue//factotum, but that's hardly any different from just a straight factotum. That's not working with gestalt, that's just ignoring it. And looking through most characters in literature, they really fit a lot better into a single class archetype than they do into two. If it helps, the most common Gestalt advice I've found is to take an "Active" and a "Passive" class. Rogue//Monk for example:

Active: Rogue for Skill Points and Skill Mastery

Passive: Monk for extra speed. Mechanically, the Monk's extra HP and AC are not referred to as "dodge bonuses," but story-wise, there's no reason why you couldn't say that your Rogue//Monk is dodging blows instead of withstanding them. The same thing results: the stealthy sneak can go longer before being dropped to 0.

Vhaidara

2014-09-23, 09:44 AM

One downside to gestalt, though, is that it can also make it a lot harder to realize many character concepts. Suppose I want a subtle, stealthy thief who relies only on his wits. I don't want a thief who also slings spells, I don't want a thief with magical glowing blue things all over his body, I don't want a thief who's also a master swordsman, I just want a thief. OK, I could do something like rogue//factotum, but that's hardly any different from just a straight factotum. That's not working with gestalt, that's just ignoring it. And looking through most characters in literature, they really fit a lot better into a single class archetype than they do into two.

I would say go with Factotum//Ninja. Or Factotum//Scout. Or refluff the incarnum (always a fun thing to do) into things like gadgets. Or the aforementioned Rogue//Monk (preferably dropping the alignment requirement). Maybe Rogue//Swordssge, focusing on Shadow Hand maneuvers. Or Rogue//Spellthief, and go around stealing everything, including magic itself.

Aegis013

2014-09-23, 10:06 AM

I like it because there are many different classes whose abilities I would like to play in a game at any given time. Since I almost never get to play games in meat space, and PbP is generally too painstakingly slow for me, it gives me the opportunity to play more of the class concepts I'm interested in. Presently those largely fall into Binder, Incarnum user, Spell channeling gish (particularly non Duskblade, so Ordained Champion probably), with an aside for RKV, area lock-down Crusader, and DFA. With other occasional whims. If you give me a normal game, I basically have to pick one. In gestalt, I can pick two, or sometimes three depending on how synergistic they are.

AmberVael

2014-09-23, 10:36 AM

One downside to gestalt, though, is that it can also make it a lot harder to realize many character concepts. Suppose I want a subtle, stealthy thief who relies only on his wits. I don't want a thief who also slings spells, I don't want a thief with magical glowing blue things all over his body, I don't want a thief who's also a master swordsman, I just want a thief. OK, I could do something like rogue//factotum, but that's hardly any different from just a straight factotum. That's not working with gestalt, that's just ignoring it. And looking through most characters in literature, they really fit a lot better into a single class archetype than they do into two.

Eh, I disagree with this. You get a lot of characters in stories who have multiple talents, or are just competent enough in one area that you can represent it with two classes. Its possible to represent characters with a single class, but I think it is equally possible to do it with two. Its especially useful when you're dealing with a more monstrous character who nonetheless has some skills best represented by class levels, which is one of my favorite uses for gestalt since it makes LA and HD not absolutely horrible.

Fax Celestis

2014-09-23, 10:49 AM

One downside to gestalt, though, is that it can also make it a lot harder to realize many character concepts. Suppose I want a subtle, stealthy thief who relies only on his wits. I don't want a thief who also slings spells, I don't want a thief with magical glowing blue things all over his body, I don't want a thief who's also a master swordsman, I just want a thief. OK, I could do something like rogue//factotum, but that's hardly any different from just a straight factotum. That's not working with gestalt, that's just ignoring it. And looking through most characters in literature, they really fit a lot better into a single class archetype than they do into two.

Some combination of Invisible Fist Monk, Ninja, Factotum, Rogue, Expert, Scout, Champion of the Wilds Ranger, Swashbuckler, and Spellthief.

Wilderness Rogue//Champion of the Wilds Ranger (or Rogue//Champion of the Wilds Urban Ranger)
Swashbuckler//Factotum
Invisible Fist Monk//Ninja
Scout//CotW Ranger
Rogue//Spellthief
Swashbuckler//Expert
etc. etc. etc.

Krazzman

2014-09-23, 11:36 AM

As others pointed out:

It really helps groups with less than 3 players.

We are playing Pathfinder and since I played 3.5 before that and actually rebought (short story short, old dm said he brings me the books next meeting -> next meeting didn't happen due to sickness -> will tell us if he feels better and found them. Never seen those books again) Unearthed Arcana, I was quite excited to finally test Gestalt.

Had some awesome concepts already (albeit lower power than most would build here). And could finally use those rules in a solocampaign that I run for my wife and currently (since my wife wanted a break from DMing her SWSE game) a 3 player game.

Since 2 guys are rather new to Pathfinder (one wanted to be a healer, the other has problems translating from his former DSA games and as such...) this is going to be somewhat complex. But I think that way their characters won't be pushovers (paired with Pointbuy 35...).

jedipotter

2014-09-23, 12:29 PM

eggynack

2014-09-23, 12:41 PM

Gestalt is so popular for one reason: Power.

A gestalt character is more powerful then a normal character, and that is just at basic, before people start just doing wacky stuff.

As a DM Gestalt is a good way to make ''two hat'' NPCs, so you can have the ''old helpful cleric'' who is also a ''fighter'' so he won't die in one attack. Even things like Diviner/Expert 8 can make a NPC have a lot more to offer the game then just normal character.

I often do Noble/Wizard 10....but then have the character be 100% just noble most of the time. Until, the crazy murderhobo characters attack Lord Duncastle in broad daylight ''too get some xps and loot'' and, surprise...he teleports away.
Nah, I'm pretty sure you just use DM gestalt for the sole reason of power. Your gestalt characters are more powerful, so that's necessarily your only motive for using that system.

Getting more serious, point is that you can use that same reasoning for why you like to use gestalt, having characters with multiple hats, or shored up weaknesses, or whatever, and apply it to why players like to use gestalt. Using power as an explanation makes about as much sense as using it as an explanation for playing games at a higher level. Yes, the characters will be objectively more powerful than their lower level versions, but if you do things correctly, then they'll have the same power level relative to the challenges they face as the low level party.

jedipotter

2014-09-23, 12:49 PM

[COLOR="#0000FF"] Yes, the characters will be objectively more powerful than their lower level versions, but if you do things correctly, then they'll have the same power level relative to the challenges they face as the low level party.

I have found, that unless the DM Gestalts the whole game, then the game becomes way too easy for even just ''typical'' gestalt characters. Gestalt just throws the Encounter Rules out the window, gestalt characters are just too powerful. But when you Gestalt the world, everything balances back out.

Extra Anchovies

2014-09-23, 12:51 PM

Fax Celestis

2014-09-23, 12:53 PM

eggynack

2014-09-23, 12:57 PM

I have found, that unless the DM Gestalts the whole game, then the game becomes way too easy for even just ''typical'' gestalt characters. Gestalt just throws the Encounter Rules out the window, gestalt characters are just too powerful. But when you Gestalt the world, everything balances back out.
Yeah, as has been mentioned, that's exactly what you should do in a gestalt game. You can probably also raise CR without granting extra XP, or specifically center the CR's around the average level of a two man gestalt party, but gestalting everything is the most direct method. I must presume that that is the gestalt system that its proponents are advocating, rather than one where the PC's are gestalted while the world remains the same.

Edit: Incidentally, for reference, I'm pretty sure that most estimations of the LA value of gestalt put it at around a +2. Seems reasonable, given that the mystic theurge is considered overcosted, and offers standard HD benefits over LA. Probably worth more on lower tier classes, but that's not a particularly problematic thing.

Logic

2014-09-23, 01:08 PM

Basically this. While I love playing two-in-one characters without gestalt, the variant adds an extra degree of freedom and flexibility not otherwise possible. Although I am not a huge fan of the variant simply due to how much stronger a given PC may be (both in terms of passive defensive abilities - typically, better HP and saves - and more active ability options - more skills, skill points, "attack" options), if given the option I'll take it. If I was going to play a typical arcane gish or psionic/arcane theurge before gestalt was added, with gestalt, I may be able to toss all three of those things into the blender!

Then there's this mess made possible by lax gestalt rules. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=3945177&postcount=38) Sadly, the table is borked due to the site changes.

However, you have to be so lax with the gestalt rules to completely ignore the caveat that no single level may have two prestige classes.

Gestalting certain low-tiered classes I think is fine. I like a fighter/knight or rogue/swashbuckler. Even a Paladin/Knight or Paladin/Fighter works fine to me. However, in my opinion, any tier 1 or 2 class should never be able to gestalt.

AmberVael

2014-09-23, 01:08 PM

Gestalt just throws the Encounter Rules out the window, gestalt characters are just too powerful.

This would be more of an issue if encounter rules were ever very accurate in the first place.

sleepyphoenixx

2014-09-23, 01:17 PM

Gestalt does have a beautiful down side: It is too much. Lots of players make spectacularly over powered gestalt characters. But when something happens in the game they are stuck with ''Um I swing my club'' or ''I do that again''. Having dozens of ''options'' is not great for everyone, some people need more focus.

So don't use gestalt in a game with inexperienced players (or those with bad memory i guess). If your players can barely remember their abilities gestalt is probably not the option to use for a better gaming experience. It's something experienced players can use to mix things up a little and spice up their campaigns.

Larkas

2014-09-23, 01:25 PM

I personally like gestalt because it helps realize more varied characters out of base classes. It's not at all incompatible with PrCs, but it really shines for me with stuff like plain Fighter//Wizard.

Furthermore, I've learned that it's entirely compatible with non-gestalt campaigns at LA +2 (without buy back, of course). It helps rescue AD&D's elven Fighter//Mages without much hassle. Besides, a Fighter//Wizard 18 is somewhat comparable to a Sorcadin 20, for example, and comes online much sooner.

Ionbound

2014-09-23, 01:36 PM

Gestalt, at least to me, lets you play weird things without dealing with the wonderfully idiotic system that is LA.

Coidzor

2014-09-23, 02:43 PM

Because it's cooler to be a Bard//Dread Necromancer than it is to take 6 levels of Lyric Thaumaturge to get Animate Dead as a spell known, go Bard>Sublime Chord and take Animate Dead as a spell known, or UMD scrolls of Animate Dead.

Threadnaught

2014-09-23, 02:53 PM

As a DM Gestalt is a good way to make ''two hat'' NPCs, so you can have the ''old helpful cleric'' who is also a ''fighter'' so he won't die in one attack. Even things like Diviner/Expert 8 can make a NPC have a lot more to offer the game then just normal character.

I often do Noble/Wizard 10....but then have the character be 100% just noble most of the time. Until, the crazy murderhobo characters attack Lord Duncastle in broad daylight ''too get some xps and loot'' and, surprise...he teleports away.

Gestalt does have a beautiful down side: It is too much. Lots of players make spectacularly over powered gestalt characters. But when something happens in the game they are stuck with ''Um I swing my club'' or ''I do that again''. Having dozens of ''options'' is not great for everyone, some people need more focus.

Gestalt does have a beautiful down side: It is too much. Lots of players make spectacularly over powered gestalt characters. But when something happens in the game they are stuck with ''Um I swing my club'' or ''I do that again''. Having dozens of ''options'' is not great for everyone, some people need more focus.

Actually, do players get to use Gestalt Rules?

How many NPCs get Gestalted? And why would players go after someone unless they're sure there's enough to gain?
For example, they could be going after an antagonist. That's not exactly unexpected, so there would be nothing wrong with an antagonist using anything in their power to survive. The question is, how long would the NPC have been a Gestalted Wizard?
Another example, players may want to murder an important NPC in order to establish some (obviously illegal) influence in the local area of the setting.

jedipotter

2014-09-23, 03:49 PM

Actually, do players get to use Gestalt Rules

Sure, some times. A Gestalt game can be fun, but I will try to avoid it with players that might be a problem. Gestalt is just turbo fuel for the characters to die quicker

How many NPCs get Gestalted? And why would players go after someone unless they're sure there's enough to gain?

The vast majority of my NPCs are Gestalted, though they are balanced by awesome DM role playing. So the herbalist is druid/expert 10 but he is not a 'player adventurer type', for example he simply does not like to change shape and only uses 'unseen type' spells. And he is an incompetent coward. So he is no where close to the raw power level of ''player type adventure druid'', but he can still craft all sorts of herb magic items.

And why do players go after NPCs? Well....who knows

For example, they could be going after an antagonist. That's not exactly unexpected, so there would be nothing wrong with an antagonist using anything in their power to survive. The question is, how long would the NPC have been a Gestalted Wizard?

Well, you need to remember my game world is big....the size of the Earth. I don't use the ''Cheers Middle Earth'' type setting where ''everyone knows everything''. So the mayor could be a secret wizard, though a couple people would know.....but no crazy adventurer, who ''lived in town in there backstory, but can't even remember the name of the town(or mayor, for that matter) without rolling a check to have the DM tell them, can roll like a 10 on their Local Lore check and ''remember'' the mayor is a wizard. Though, like most things it can be discovered by role playing...

sonofzeal

2014-09-23, 03:50 PM

One downside to gestalt, though, is that it can also make it a lot harder to realize many character concepts.

If gestalt is making it harder to actualize your character concepts, you're doing something seriously wrong.

jedipotter

2014-09-23, 04:12 PM

If gestalt is making it harder to actualize your character concepts, you're doing something seriously wrong.

I wonder how it makes it harder myself....

Tragak

2014-09-23, 04:22 PM

I wonder how it makes it harder myself.... Well, it seemed like he was as interested in what his character couldn't do in he was in what the character could, so going from a list of

2 character concepts with 1 option, 10 character concepts with 2 options, and 3 character concepts with 3 options*

to a list of

5 character concepts with 2 options, 50 character concepts with 3 options, and 45 character concepts with 4 options*

wouldn't seem very tempting to him.

*numbers invented on the spot and not to be taken literally

atemu1234

2014-09-23, 04:29 PM

Please tell me this isn't going to turn into another Everyone-Hates-Jedipotter thread. Please?

jedipotter

2014-09-23, 04:48 PM

Please tell me this isn't going to turn into another Everyone-Hates-Jedipotter thread. Please?

Otherwise known as JP rule #11,

Threadnaught

2014-09-23, 04:54 PM

Sure, some times. A Gestalt game can be fun, but I will try to avoid it with players that might be a problem. Gestalt is just turbo fuel for the characters to die quicker

So that's a never then?

Since doing stuff you don't explicitly permit is a sign of being a problem player, regardless of where they are in the world, or what they're doing.

We need more details.

Gestalt is just turbo fuel for the characters to die quicker

What is the maximum allowed success/non-death rate for Gestalted Characters? 30%? 20%? 1%?

The vast majority of my NPCs are Gestalted, though they are balanced by awesome DM role playing. So the herbalist is druid/expert 10 but he is not a 'player adventurer type', for example he simply does not like to change shape and only uses 'unseen type' spells. And he is an incompetent coward. So he is no where close to the raw power level of ''player type adventure druid'', but he can still craft all sorts of herb magic items.

Interestingly, you have just described how that ******* Druid often played his Druid.
An incompetent, dirty coward. All day buffs, Animal Companion doing the majority of the workload, staying out of way in combat unless he could Wildshape into a form bigger than the opponent. Not Gestalted, oh look, you described a PC personality. Except the NPC has more options because you made them more powerful.

And why do players go after NPCs? Well....who knows

I gave some examples of why. Pick one.

Well, you need to remember my game world is big....the size of the Earth. I don't use the ''Cheers Middle Earth'' type setting where ''everyone knows everything''.

Okay, so you use a published setting?

So the mayor could be a secret wizard, though a couple people would know.....but no crazy adventurer, who ''lived in town in there backstory, but can't even remember the name of the town(or mayor, for that matter) without rolling a check to have the DM tell them, can roll like a 10 on their Local Lore check and ''remember'' the mayor is a wizard.

So a PC could actually be related to (cousins) the Mayor, have learned to be a Wizard alongside the Mayor, have spent their whole pre-adventurer life in the town, but they're not allowed to know where they're from or who their family is?
Those are options a player could take for a PC, without having a serious effect on the overall power of their PC.

If the Mayor being a Wizard is such a big secret to everybody, then the DC would be at least 20, I'd say if only a handful of people were privy to the information and the Mayor never used their powers in public, it'd be DC30-35. Higher if the Mayor were a high level Wizard and took steps to hide it.

Please tell me this isn't going to turn into another Everyone-Hates-Jedipotter thread. Please?

Nah, his post was just a bit weird to me. That's all. :smalltongue:

Larkas

2014-09-23, 05:07 PM

And I was just about to say it hadn't shown any signs of going that way yet, atemu...

eggynack

2014-09-23, 05:13 PM

Otherwise known as JP rule #11,
Wait, is JP rule #11 that no threads should become Jedipotter hate threads, or that all threads shall be one day subsumed by Jedipotter hate? It might be both, actually.

torrasque666

2014-09-23, 06:16 PM

Extra Anchovies

2014-09-23, 06:22 PM

I think JP Rule #11 is that all threads he appears in shall devolve into JP hate threads.

Wait, we found out one of his rules!

In all seriousness though, I long for a gestalt game, if only to try out my hideous combo of a Warforged Warblade//Warmage/War Weaver. How many times can I reference war with one character?(The War Domain doesn't count.)

Warlock
War Chanter
War Mind
War Wizard of Cormyr
Warrior
Warpriest
Warmaster
Warshaper
Warchief

Pick and choose from the above, then ride a Warbeast Warthog.

Threadnaught

2014-09-23, 06:28 PM

Wait, we found out one of his rules!

Which means we're all of us, Cheaters. Any member of the Rudisplorkers' Guild posting here must hand in membership, commit honourable seppuku, or seek Atonement, but it's not like there's just a Spell we can Cast. :smallamused:

Anything interesting that can be done with Raptorans, either Druid or Cleric with and without Gestalt?

Demidos

2014-09-23, 06:43 PM

This is only tangentially related, but I've always found JaronK's Partial gestalt (detailed in his Tier list) to work really well in that it does what gestalt should do (bring up characters to the challenge) but only the ones that need the boost.

Necroticplague

2014-09-23, 07:50 PM

Another upside of gestalt is that it means some PRCs that are usually "it could be good, but it doesn't progress anything from the base class" can be better by using them as the PRC in a gestalt, then using that base class of the other. Like a Ranger/arcane archer//Cleric is actually able to get 9th level spells, while still having the fun combo of Arrowsplit+Imbue Arrow. Normally, I'd have to pick between those two tasty options (do I want nines, or do I want Arrowsplit?).

in b4 "neither ranger nor cleric are arcane casting classes". learn 2 southern magician.

jedipotter

2014-09-23, 08:13 PM

Since doing stuff you don't explicitly permit is a sign of being a problem player, regardless of where they are in the world, or what they're doing.

We need more details.

Often Gestalt characters bite off more then they can choose.

What is the maximum allowed success/non-death rate for Gestalted Characters? 30%? 20%? 1%?

It does not matter what character you have, it matters how you play the game.

I gave some examples of why. Pick one.

I like a more adventure type game. So players that want to kill NPC commoners and experts won't get very far in my game.

Okay, so you use a published setting?

Yes, the Forgotten Realms. Unlike a lot of settings, like Middle Earth or Dragonlance, FR is the size of Earth. It is utterly impossible for crazy adventurer ranger from Waterdeep to ''remember'' everything about the whole world.

So a PC could actually be related to (cousins) the Mayor, have learned to be a Wizard alongside the Mayor, have spent their whole pre-adventurer life in the town, but they're not allowed to know where they're from or who their family is?
Those are options a player could take for a PC, without having a serious effect on the overall power of their PC.

Every family has it's secrets.

If the Mayor being a Wizard is such a big secret to everybody, then the DC would be at least 20, I'd say if only a handful of people were privy to the information and the Mayor never used their powers in public, it'd be DC30-35. Higher if the Mayor were a high level Wizard and took steps to hide it.

Yea, this is a D&D mechanical problem. It's bad enough DC's are too low and that the game gives way too many skill points. But worse then both of them, too many players just load up on skills. This allows a character to make even 'hard' DCs. So the system is broken. This is why I don't use knowledge checks in my game.

atemu1234

2014-09-23, 08:27 PM

Yea, this is a D&D mechanical problem. It's bad enough DC's are too low and that the game gives way too many skill points. But worse then both of them, too many players just load up on skills. This allows a character to make even 'hard' DCs. So the system is broken. This is why I don't use knowledge checks in my game.

I think this is what people have an issue with. The 3e/3.5/PF system of skills is actually one of the things people think they did better. You are complaining about something people actually like. You aren't complaining about drown healing.

I'll put it this way. In society, there are manifest and latent functions. Manifest are intended functions of a system, latent the unintended. Dysfunction is something broken about the system. Skills are one of the Manifest functions of the game, as are skill points. Therein, you're actually complaining about the actual system. All in all, I think you'd be happier with World of Darkness, where there are fewer rules and those that exist bend around the actual story. I think you'd enjoy it, at any rate.

Also, just an honest question, without Knowledge checks, how do they figure things out? I've seen groups where you roleplay checks and are even allowed to take 20 on Knowledge checks, but I've never seen a game that abandons them entirely.

Extra Anchovies

2014-09-23, 08:38 PM

I don't use knowledge checks in my game.

u wot

Yea, this is a D&D mechanical problem. It's bad enough DC's are too low and that the game gives way too many skill points. But worse then both of them, too many players just load up on skills. This allows a character to make even 'hard' DCs. So the system is broken. This is why I don't use knowledge checks in my game.

On a more serious note, I don't see this as a problem or a broken system at all. Remember, the PCs are almost by definition heroes; at the very least they are protagonists. Anything they put effort into being good at, they should be very good at. The 12th-level übercharger barbarian/fighter is the best warrior in the kingdom. The 14th-level rogue is undetectable in all but the brightest of light. The 11th-level wizard is the one to whom learned sages turn when they don't have an answer. If a PC is putting ranks into a skill, they should probably be able to do a lot of amazing things with said skill, at least at the mid/high levels.

Also, what knowledge skill would a player even be able to use to ID that a mayor is secretly a wizard? Arcana wouldn't do it unless he displayed magical insignia (which he wouldn't if he's trying to keep a secret), Nobility/Royalty would only reveal the stuff about him pertaining to his status as mayor, and Local, well, when a character takes ranks in Knowledge (Local) they have to specify a location. For example, in the requirements for the Touchstone feat in Sandstorm: "Knowledge (local) 8 ranks for the area in which the touchstone lies". When a player puts ranks into Knowledge (Local), they have to tell you what area they're putting ranks in for. Characters can't make untrained Knowledge checks for DCs of higher than 10, so set the DC at 20 and ka-bam, nobody knows.

And if a PC gets some way to make Knowledge (Local) checks untrained, reward them for that. They put in the effort, let them find out that the mayor's a wizard on the side. Not like it would affect much, after all. Congrats, you know that he's a wizard. This fact had no bearing on plot at all. Or if it did, they would've found out eventually anyways, so there's no point in stopping them.

Also, seconding the recommendation for a WoD game for rules-light stuff. Or maybe something on the FATE system (Houses of the Blooded is one, but the LARP community for that is bigger than the tabletop community). I'm a big fan of massive piles of mechanically quantifiable rules and character options, and I hate those games. They aren't bad games, they're just very light on RAW and heavy on DM control.

eggynack

2014-09-23, 08:50 PM

jedipotter

2014-09-23, 08:52 PM

Therein, you're actually complaining about the actual system. All in all, I think you'd be happier with World of Darkness, where there are fewer rules and those that exist bend around the actual story. I think you'd enjoy it, at any rate.

Most other systems are worse in my eyes.

Also, just an honest question, without Knowledge checks, how do they figure things out? I've seen groups where you roleplay checks and are even allowed to take 20 on Knowledge checks, but I've never seen a game that abandons them entirely.

In my game the players must figure things out for real. The players, not the characters have to learn things by role-playing and not roll-playing.

SiuiS

2014-09-23, 08:54 PM

Gestalt allows options. Rather than worrying about how strong you are, you can worry about how many things you can do. It's much more fun to have ten or twelve low level abilities thana. Few high level ones, but you don't see this often in standard play because those low level options are usually at the expense of being successful.

Daishain

2014-09-23, 08:57 PM

Most other systems are worse in my eyes.

In my game the players must figure things out for real. The players, not the characters have to learn things by role-playing and not roll-playing.
You know, every time I see one of your posts I wonder why the heck you're playing D&D at all. Much less bothering the rest of us about it.

You've chosen to disregard so many rules and substitute your own reality that you would have been better off just making up your own game.

Extra Anchovies

2014-09-23, 09:00 PM

I think knowledge (local) may have been location specific in 3.0, but it's definitely not in 3.5. You could always just set really obscure stuff like specific information about provincial politics at a high DC.

Actually, Sandstorm has a few instances where Knowledge (specific location) is a requirement for something, and it's 3.5. I've seen Knowledge (local) for specific locations in a few other books too, but don't have the time to find them all. Sometimes, though, having ranks in Knowledge (local) is enough, without a specific location; it's fairly inconsistent. I agree with you about the DCs, though. If only two or three other people in the whole town know, a Knowledge check might not even be enough to find it out; you'd need Gather Information to find out who the mayor's associates are, and then the proper Diplomacy or Intimidate rolls. Of course, all of that would require you to have a reason to do this in the first place, which you wouldn't if it weren't plot-relevant.

eggynack

2014-09-23, 09:03 PM

Actually, Sandstorm has a few instances where Knowledge (specific location) is a requirement for something, and it's 3.5. I've seen Knowledge (local) for specific locations in a few other books too, but don't have the time to find them all.
It might be a thing you can need, but I'm pretty sure it's not a thing that's ever been listed as something you can put ranks in, at least in 3.5. It's just straight knowledge (local) as far as the eye can see. Probably just a dysfunction of some kind.

JBPuffin

2014-09-23, 09:11 PM

So I noticed I haven't posted yet. Alright, time to fix that.

I use rule variants because I'm a systems tinkerer; in gestalt's case, it's good for backup plans to a build strategy, doing weird but somewhat optimized combinations, possibilities galore, etc. My current character building project is an Illumian Dragon Shaman//Knight, hopefully from 1 to 20, and already I'm loving the fact that he's got full hit die, two good saves and uses for all of his actions. Riding a Wyvern will only make it more fun later :smallbiggrin:. Honestly, I'll probably do a few more like this, putting weird combinations together to see where they work (although I'll be calling on the boards for help) because gestalt is good for tinkering. Anyway, that's my two cents.

In regards to the jedipotter side-discussion, I like the idea of not having to waste skill points on Knowledges. Heck, scrap skills altogether; there are ways to replace them, after all :smallwink:. Of course, I hope you let your players take notes, otherwise that might be torture (those PCs know quite a bit players may not).

jedipotter

2014-09-23, 09:33 PM

On a more serious note, I don't see this as a problem or a broken system at all. Remember, the PCs are almost by definition heroes; at the very least they are protagonists. Anything they put effort into being good at, they should be very good at. If a PC is putting ranks into a skill, they should probably be able to do a lot of amazing things with said skill, at least at the mid/high levels.

I don't have the problem with a high level character that earned the high level abilities, and was acting like a high level character. But there are problems. First you have the high ability problem, player characters always have very high abilities. Then players often put too many ranks in a skill; just as you can max out a skill does not say that you should. And then there are all sorts of bonuses from items and feats and such.

And this is a great thing about Gestalt: it gives more skills. And more skills spread out the too many skill points given. I like to suggest that players pick a class that gives Spot and Listen, as they are easy skills that players love to max out skills on...and forget other skills.

Daishain

2014-09-23, 09:40 PM

In regards to the jedipotter side-discussion, I like the idea of not having to waste skill points on Knowledges. Heck, scrap skills altogether; there are ways to replace them, after all :smallwink:. Of course, I hope you let your players take notes, otherwise that might be torture (those PCs know quite a bit players may not).
If you're careful about the way you handle it sure. Main problem I see is the one you referenced. those player characters with some familiarity of a given subject are ALWAYS going to know more about it than their players, whether or not they take notes.

You have to have some means of compensating to allow for what the character knows to come into play. The skill system isn't perfect, that's for sure, but they did manage that. The alternative is dumbing all plot points down such that it can be figured out from random scraps of information the DM tosses your way. Which greatly limits your options (and gets particularly frustrating if said DM forgets to mention something important.)

eggynack

2014-09-23, 09:44 PM

I don't have the problem with a high level character that earned the high level abilities, and was acting like a high level character. But there are problems. First you have the high ability problem, player characters always have very high abilities. Then players often put too many ranks in a skill; just as you can max out a skill does not say that you should. And then there are all sorts of bonuses from items and feats and such.

The real issue with this argument, that there are too many skill ranks, is that you've never really given any evidence to support it. You've tried to give evidence, certainly, but it's always been flawed at the most basic level (in terms of the ease of skill boosting, the DC of various things, and the information you're supposed to get when you meet those DC's). Then you just kinda drop it, before bringing up the issue again in another thread, again completely unsupported. It just seems kinda pointless.

Rater202

2014-09-23, 10:31 PM

In my game the players must figure things out for real. The players, not the characters have to learn things by role-playing and not roll-playing.

But knowledge checks are things that establish things the players Already know, from before the game started.

Not things leanred in game.

So, let's pretend I'm a player in your game and I made a Druid.

Since you don't allow knowledge checks, I have to role play out learning that wolves are pack hunters in game, instead of my four ranks in knowledge(Nature) jstifying it being something my druid already knows.

An other player has a Wizard. Even though e can shoot bolts of force from his fingure tips, and is a INT based prepared caster, you're banning of knowledge skills means he has no idea how magic works untill somebody explains it to him in game.

If you want players to work things out in game, okay, if it's something that there's no way in hell thy'd no before hand, don't allow the roll.

If it's possibly something they'd learned allow the roll.

If it's something they by all means should know(to use a previous example, the Mayors' brother who learned magic beside him knowing the mayor is a wizard) then don't even roll, just declare they know it.

On the topic of that, if the mayor and his relative both learned magic along side each other "Families have secrets" is a piss poor excuse for the PC relative not knowing about it, because he was there, and a player should always have control of their back story, not have major bombs dropped on them without there permission.

jedipotter

2014-09-23, 10:42 PM

The real issue with this argument, that there are too many skill ranks, is that you've never really given any evidence to support it.

Evidence? Just look at the amount of skill points?

eggynack

2014-09-23, 10:47 PM

Evidence? Just look at the amount of skill points?
Yeah. Like four in a skill at first level, eleven at eighth, where the latter is enough to finally correctly identify an elephant by taking ten. Seems like too few, if anything. Seriously though, it's clear that I'm not seeing whatever it is you're seeing, so it would be nice if you'd indicate whatever it is you're seeing. By my recollection, your calculations usually involve a character so invested in knowing things of this ilk that it would be ridiculous for them not to know it (like at least one feat, full ability score allocation, and maybe even an item or two).

NotScaryBats

2014-09-24, 12:09 AM

I adore gestalt! I like it because it lets me play LA / RHD on one side and still be a real class on the other, like a Ghoul // Cleric or whatever. That's my favorite use of it.

atemu1234

2014-09-24, 07:34 AM

Evidence? Just look at the amount of skill points?

Those exact words have been used by people complaining about the opposite, too few skill points.

Seriously. It isn't broken. A DC 25 search check, if you take 20, takes five ranks. At second level, you can have five ranks.

A DC 30 Knowledge check requires at least +10 if you can take 20 on it. In most cases, you can't, especially in combat, so you roll (let's say an average of 10) you need at least +20, which in ranks with no intelligence bonus is level 17, and with a decent intelligence modifier (hell, let's go with gray elf wizard (starting at 20 int and increasing it every four levels) with max ranks in Knowledge) it would take 12th level to make that.

Everyone knows Epic levels are borked, hell, that's half the point. If you've got a problem with that, it is a variant, you don't have to run it. But Knowledge and other skills are literally built into a system from phase 1.

Extra Anchovies

2014-09-24, 08:23 AM

A DC 30 Knowledge check requires at least +10 if you can take 20 on it. In most cases, you can't, especially in combat, so you roll (let's say an average of 10) you need at least +20, which in ranks with no intelligence bonus is level 17, and with a decent intelligence modifier (hell, let's go with gray elf wizard (starting at 20 int and increasing it every four levels) with max ranks in Knowledge) it would take 12th level to make that.

Actually, you can't take 20 on Knowledge checks - the text in the Skills chapter explicitly states that you can't try again, and taking 20 represents trying over and over until you succeed. So it would, in fact, take until 12th level. And by that point, if someone's been putting in maximum ranks for a skill, they should be able to do pretty much anything with it (and at even higher levels, they really are able to do anything with it).

ETA:
I adore gestalt! I like it because it lets me play LA / RHD on one side and still be a real class on the other, like a Ghoul // Cleric or whatever. That's my favorite use of it.Oooh, that's a good point, hadn't thought of that one. Makes the high-level monster classes (Astral Deva, Fire Giant, Ghaele, etc) actually playable!

Now I want to try that in a gestalt game. Be a Mummy//Druid or something cool like that.

Greenish

2014-09-24, 08:50 AM

Except the NPC has more options because you made them more powerful.We're talking Druid//Expert here. It only has a few skill points and class skills over a standard druid.

I'm not sure what the point in that being gestalt is, even. Druid already has 4+int skills and most every skill a herbalist might want as class skills.

Snowbluff

2014-09-24, 08:56 AM

I like it. I can mess with weird builds, like my Iaijutsu bard.

I adore gestalt! I like it because it lets me play LA / RHD on one side and still be a real class on the other, like a Ghoul // Cleric or whatever. That's my favorite use of it.

Oh, yeah. If I was a level higher for this next gestalt game, I would have been a Were Murder of Crows. :smalltongue:

sonofzeal

2014-09-24, 09:17 AM

The PHB has 10 Knowledge skills, and later books introduced more.

Nearly every character has things they need skill points for, besides knowledge skills.

Most characters can only max 6 or fewer skills, and only a select few can max 10.

-------------

CONCLUSION: very few characters can max all knowledge skills even if they tried, and doing so would come at a hefty opportunity cost because it would leave no points for Spot, Listen, Search, Jump, Hide, Move Silently, Use Magic Device, etc.

torrasque666

2014-09-24, 09:26 AM

hookbill

2014-09-24, 10:21 AM

So I have a question and some observations

First, never having played a game with Gestalt, it would seem that this is a very useful tool to allow for a time when getting 5-7 people together for an extended time to game is getting harder and harder to do (with pc gaming, life, fast pace, etc, etc) so getting 2-3 and using these rules would be a saving grace vs having to quit gaming all together (which I had to do)

This would obviously go without saying that it allows you to hopefully be used to fill in the gaps of two hours sitting around “no, someone has to play the healer but I wanted to be a fighter” discussions.
It would also go without saying that you don’t have the classic min/max’r at your table and you end up with a dragon/demigod/warlock mix type character.. but honestly, this (in my minds eye) is fine too as a DM , if that player wants to walk the module/campaign and ruin it for everyone in one session… sure, I’ll bring my tablet, play some P&D and let you have at it, and we’ll be done in a couple hours..LOL

The issue of having a rogue that is virtually undetectable or a fighter that can’t be hit…well speed of plot goes along with that too.. if the guard is meant to hit you in order to advance my story, he’s going to hit you.. not unfairly, but this falls into storytelling to make it interesting too.. (but that shouldn’t be an issue either since you can run (and just guessing) 2 people through a 1-3 lvl module or 3 people through a 4-6 level or whatever …
it should be interesting enough but not impossible for the lower number of people without having to Gestalt the module itself.

And the question…

Are the rules for this located at the www.d20srd.org › Variant Classes site … are those the complete ones or are there more for the basics… seems pretty simple to use (provided you don’t have some “player” trying to break the system by max’ing everything out and abusing it)

Threadnaught

2014-09-24, 11:07 AM

But knowledge checks are things that establish things the players Already know, from before the game started.

Just have to make the correction between PCs and Players. Knowledge represents what the PCs know, not what the Players doo, otherwise nearly every game would give PCs free Ranks in most Knowledge Skills and enough of a circumstance bonus, never to fail when it comes to assessing an encounter.

If it's something they by all means should know(to use a previous example, the Mayors' brother who learned magic beside him knowing the mayor is a wizard) then don't even roll, just declare they know it.

Again, don't mean to be a jerk about it, but the example wasn't the Mayor's brother, it was their cousin, not that it changes what the character should know.

On the topic of that, if the mayor and his relative both learned magic along side each other "Families have secrets" is a piss poor excuse for the PC relative not knowing about it, because he was there, and a player should always have control of their back story, not have major bombs dropped on them without there permission.

Yeah, I get the feeling that with the removal of all ability to know about anything from the Character's backstory, the whole creation of backstories is something that has been banned, with no PCs ever growing up in the gameworld. Having just popped into existence. Like The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, a popular video game.

We're talking Druid//Expert here. It only has a few skill points and class skills over a standard druid.

Expert gets 2 Skill Points per level more than Druid and to choose 10 Skills to be Class Skills, any 10 Skills.

Hide, Move Silently, Disguise and Bluff are all useful for Cowards, regardless of their Class. Let's add those to a 10th level Druid's Skill list to give the Druid an ability to do more stuff, and let's add the additional 26 Skill points to spend to the Druid's 52. Okay, now that the 78 Skill points have been figured out, what about Bonus Skill points? How high is the Expert//Druid's Intelligence? And are they Human?

You seem to be underestimating the value of Expert in a Gestalt. So wanted to put "misunderestimating" instead.

atemu1234

2014-09-24, 12:24 PM

Actually, you can't take 20 on Knowledge checks - the text in the Skills chapter explicitly states that you can't try again, and taking 20 represents trying over and over until you succeed. So it would, in fact, take until 12th level. And by that point, if someone's been putting in maximum ranks for a skill, they should be able to do pretty much anything with it (and at even higher levels, they really are able to do anything with it).

So it does. Sorry, I made that statement AFB.

Extra Anchovies

2014-09-24, 12:35 PM

You seem to be underestimating the value of Expert in a Gestalt. So wanted to put "misunderestimating" instead.

Well, if you can Gestalt with Factotum there's not much reason to Gestalt with Expert instead, but if you're limited to NPC classes then Expert is indeed the way to go.

eggynack

2014-09-24, 12:36 PM

Expert gets 2 Skill Points per level more than Druid and to choose 10 Skills to be Class Skills, any 10 Skills.

Hide, Move Silently, Disguise and Bluff are all useful for Cowards, regardless of their Class. Let's add those to a 10th level Druid's Skill list to give the Druid an ability to do more stuff, and let's add the additional 26 Skill points to spend to the Druid's 52. Okay, now that the 78 Skill points have been figured out, what about Bonus Skill points? How high is the Expert//Druid's Intelligence? And are they Human?

You seem to be underestimating the value of Expert in a Gestalt. So wanted to put "misunderestimating" instead.
It's certainly not nothing. I just so rarely find myself saying, "Oh god, what am I going to do with all of these excess skill points," when putting together a druid. You obviously also get bonus places to put those bonus points, but it's hard for me to believe that you're getting significantly more value than just two extra maxed skills. I guess there are always skill prerequisites of prestige classes to meet, and maybe a useful skill trick that's otherwise prohibitively difficult to take. It's still not an especially valuable thing though. Druid and druid//expert are two characters that I'd definitely find difficult to tell apart from any kind of distance.

Fax Celestis

2014-09-24, 12:46 PM

Well, if you can Gestalt with Factotum there's not much reason to Gestalt with Expert instead, but if you're limited to NPC classes then Expert is indeed the way to go.

In fact, there's literally no reason to do so. Factotum has better HD (which is a wash since druid has a better HD than both), a good save in the one save druids have poor (which experts have a good save on one of the two druids already have good), a larger skill list, the same skill points/level, and, y'know, actual class features. I mean, if you're going to gestalt with an NPC class, you might as well do it with Adept so you can get a familiar and a an animal companion, which you can then leverage into having two animal companions using the Familiar -> Animal Companion of 1/2 level option.

Coidzor

2014-09-24, 01:08 PM

In fact, there's literally no reason to do so. Factotum has better HD (which is a wash since druid has a better HD than both), a good save in the one save druids have poor (which experts have a good save on one of the two druids already have good), a larger skill list, the same skill points/level, and, y'know, actual class features. I mean, if you're going to gestalt with an NPC class, you might as well do it with Adept so you can get a familiar and a an animal companion, which you can then leverage into having two animal companions using the Familiar -> Animal Companion of 1/2 level option.

And then turn that half-strength Animal Companion into an Urban Companion because they're also a Druid! :smallbiggrin:

eggynack

2014-09-24, 01:14 PM

I mean, if you're going to gestalt with an NPC class, you might as well do it with Adept so you can get a familiar and a an animal companion, which you can then leverage into having two animal companions using the Familiar -> Animal Companion of 1/2 level option.
The spell list also reasonably compliments the druid's own. Picking up spells like ghost sound, command, comprehend languages, protection from X (where X isn't winged fliers), invisibility, mirror image, animate dead, tongues, minor creation, polymorph, restoration, and raise dead is some pretty sweet business. Adepts are cool, is the point.

sonofzeal

2014-09-24, 01:34 PM

The spell list also reasonably compliments the druid's own. Picking up spells like ghost sound, command, comprehend languages, protection from X (where X isn't winged fliers), invisibility, mirror image, animate dead, tongues, minor creation, polymorph, restoration, and raise dead is some pretty sweet business. Adepts are cool, is the point.
Also, you suddenly qualify for the awesome "Hexer" PrC which is nigh-impossible to get into otherwise since the 3.0->3.5 changeover.

Fax Celestis

2014-09-24, 01:38 PM

Also, you suddenly qualify for the awesome "Hexer" PrC which is nigh-impossible to get into otherwise since the 3.0->3.5 changeover.

What, Fire Shugenja don't count?

Gnaeus

2014-09-24, 01:53 PM

So I have a question and some observations

First, never having played a game with Gestalt, it would seem that this is a very useful tool to allow for a time when getting 5-7 people together for an extended time to game is getting harder and harder to do (with pc gaming, life, fast pace, etc, etc) so getting 2-3 and using these rules would be a saving grace vs having to quit gaming all together (which I had to do)

This would obviously go without saying that it allows you to hopefully be used to fill in the gaps of two hours sitting around “no, someone has to play the healer but I wanted to be a fighter” discussions.
It would also go without saying that you don’t have the classic min/max’r at your table and you end up with a dragon/demigod/warlock mix type character.. but honestly, this (in my minds eye) is fine too as a DM , if that player wants to walk the module/campaign and ruin it for everyone in one session… sure, I’ll bring my tablet, play some P&D and let you have at it, and we’ll be done in a couple hours..LOL

I use gestalt for my current game, which started with 2 players and now has 3, to prevent players from needing to use 2 PCs each or having to mess with DMPCs which I loathe. I then fix action economy by providing a couple of aggressively low-op NPCs as flunkies which I let the players run. The 2 (now 3) PCs solve all the problems, and carry most of the weight in combat

Our group is fairly high OP. Not Tippy level, but I think above average. So yes, at 10th level, the monk//wizard has a pretty stupid ac and does well over 100 damage per round of charge pouncing. But they aren't too badly balanced vs. each other, and I can compensate for an over powered party. (I usually treat them as party level 2-4 above their actual level for purposes of writing encounters so that the critters don't get steamrolled).

And the question…

Are the rules for this located at the www.d20srd.org › Variant Classes site … are those the complete ones or are there more for the basics… seems pretty simple to use (provided you don’t have some “player” trying to break the system by max’ing everything out and abusing it)

Thats all they wrote. There are still some open questions, like how LA/RHD work in gestalt. Or whether a Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19//Wizard 20 has +20 BAB or +10. Or exactly what qualifies as dual progression. You'll need to work those out at the table, although forumites have lots of opinions.

hookbill

2014-09-24, 02:08 PM

makes sense...

tyvm

Talakeal

2014-09-24, 02:15 PM

Personally I like gestalt because a lot of classes have very sharp fluff / crunch divides or very different ic / ooc roles and it allows me to play the character I want.

For example, my main character is a gestalt monk / fighter because I like playing a strong willed, meditative character with social and healing skills, but in combat I still like hitting people for a lot of damage with a big sword rather than flurrying with unarmed attacks.

Threadnaught

2014-09-24, 02:42 PM

Yeah, yeah Factotum is better than Expert.

My whole comment string in response to jedipotter's thing about the Druid//Expert, was about what an Expert can do for a Druid who is supposed to be a coward.

Starmage21

2014-09-24, 02:52 PM

Gestalt is popular because: Some builds and prestige classes just suck.

Consider Druid/Master of Many Forms: you're giving up druid casting and animal companion progression and class features for the ability to wild shape into more stuff. You use Wild Shape for pretty much combat and travel. You dont get full BAB, nor any other features, so basically the much higher STR values and possibly odd special attacks are supposed to make up for that. Only it doesnt, because the great cats or dinosaurs got most of that covered for you, and you couldve stayed full druid for that.
Throw in some gestalt, and it becomes the sauce made of awesome. Druid//Warblade/Master of Many Forms or even Druid/Master of Many Forms//Warblade

sleepyphoenixx

2014-09-24, 02:57 PM

Gestalt is popular because: Some builds and prestige classes just suck.

Consider Druid/Master of Many Forms: you're giving up druid casting and animal companion progression and class features for the ability to wild shape into more stuff. You use Wild Shape for pretty much combat and travel. You dont get full BAB, nor any other features, so basically the much higher STR values and possibly odd special attacks are supposed to make up for that. Only it doesnt, because the great cats or dinosaurs got most of that covered for you, and you couldve stayed full druid for that.

This is just not true. There are some pretty amazing forms you can take with MoMF that you won't get as a straight druid. It's just that with feats normal druid wildshaping is already pretty damn amazing and spellcasting is pretty much always worth more than any kind of non-spellcasting abilities, even disregarding Shapechange.

eggynack

2014-09-24, 03:06 PM

This is just not true. There are some pretty amazing forms you can take with MoMF that you won't get as a straight druid. It's just that with feats normal druid wildshaping is already pretty damn amazing and spellcasting is pretty much always worth more than any kind of non-spellcasting abilities, even disregarding Shapechange.
Really depends on how you think of the class. A druid/MoMF will be awesome, hanging out somewhere around tier 2 or 3 depending on what forms you're using, but that transition from druid to MoMF is bad, because straight druid is a much better thing. I disagree with the assertion, however, that druid/MoMF is to be avoided due to the crappiness of that transition.