(3.5) PaO and Awaken Tree

[Phelix-Mu]

Alright, so a recent thread by Flickerdart made me realize that awaken is even more abusable than I had previously realized, an impressive feat as it is far and above my favorite druid schtick, even if it's almost uselessly open-ended.

So, my new question involves the broke that is polymorph any object, of which I know precious little aside from the description, and awaken.

Basically, can you PaO an object temporarily into a tree (another object), awaken it, and then let the PaO go away? Normally, interactions like this don't always work with creatures due to type restrictions that are harder to deal with, but objects don't have types. It's either a tree, or it's not, and it's previous state is irrelevant.

More pointedly, could you permanently PaO something into a tree, awaken it, then remove the PaO effect in some manner?


For reference, from the SRD:

Awaken
Transmutation
Level: Drd 5
Components: V, S, DF, XP
Casting Time: 24 hours
Range: Touch
Target: Animal or tree touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal’s current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened).

The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it.

An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6. An awakened plant gains the ability to move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth, and it has senses similar to a human’s.

An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.

An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that you know, plus one additional language that you know per point of Intelligence bonus (if any).
XP Cost

250 XP.



and PaO, since I can't copy the tables: link. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm)

[Judge_Worm]

Awakening a tree wouldn't stop the polymorph effect from ending. The tree would change back into its original form after the duration expired. That original object may or may not be sentient/sapient. If the duration of PaO is permanent, I don't see anyway to reverse it that doesn't involve a will save.

[Phelix-Mu]

Awakening a tree wouldn't stop the polymorph effect from ending. The tree would change back into its original form after the duration expired. That original object may or may not be sentient/sapient. If the duration of PaO is permanent, I don't see anyway to reverse it that doesn't involve a will save.

Not quite clear how the will save is coming into things. I guess it would depend on just what method is used to change the creature back.

I just was interested because now my Arcane Hierophant can actually create the sentient green slime that I've always wanted to create.

....

....

For research purposes. Of course. Right. Research.


*mwahaha*

[Judge_Worm]

Not quite clear how the will save is coming into things. I guess it would depend on just what method is used to change the creature back.
Unless you kill it, most those ways are more polymorph, or dispell.


I just was interested because now my Arcane Hierophant can actually create the sentient green slime that I've always wanted to create.

Have you considered living spell? Or, by DM fiat (and venturing into non-RAW territory) have you thought about awakening a slime mold? Despite not having any stats (that I know of) a fungi* is considered a type of plant, even though biologically they're closer to animals, but let's not let science get in the way of role-playing. It could be your sentient green goo. It's also in the grey whether or not a creature maintains its awakened status after the duration of a polymorph spell ends. However by RAW transforming(by PaO) one creature into another gives it the stats of the new creature.

Unlike polymorph, polymorph any object does grant the creature the Intelligence score of its new form.

*A slime mold is not a fungi either, having more characteristics in common with protozoa than most other mycological lifeforms. Still it bothers me that they consider a fungus a plant, they don't produce chlorophyll, they don't sexually reproduce (not all plants do either but all flowering plants do), and they don't have cell walls./rant

[Phelix-Mu]

Unless you kill it, most those ways are more polymorph, or dispell.


Have you considered living spell? Or, by DM fiat (and venturing into non-RAW territory) have you thought about awakening a slime mold? Despite not having any stats (that I know of) a fungi* is considered a type of plant, even though biologically they're closer to animals, but let's not let science get in the way of role-playing. It could be your sentient green goo. It's also in the grey whether or not a creature maintains its awakened status after the duration of a polymorph spell ends. However by RAW transforming(by PaO) one creature into another gives it the stats of the new creature.


*A slime mold is not a fungi either, having more characteristics in common with protozoa than most other mycological lifeforms. Still it bothers me that they consider a fungus a plant, they don't produce chlorophyll, they don't sexually reproduce (not all plants do either but all flowering plants do), and they don't have cell walls./rant

I mainly was looking to exploit the extremely not well-defined nature of green slime in conjunction with mobile green slime. Sentience is a bit of a side benefit, but having something that uses the green slime mechanic that can move around would be freakishly good. Partially depending on DM interpretation of the implied biomass conversion, which, again, is extremely ill-defined. But even absent the geometric growth patterns possible, it can straight up destroy all but stone on contact (no saves mentioned...though I assume magic items still gain them as normal), will likely dissolve undead on contact (again, I am trying hard to see where undead would even get a save, though it might take some rounds for them to be wholly consumed), and spells a relatively quick death to any creature not familiar with methods of destroying it.

Sadly, light immunity is rather hard to get in-game, which gives the awakened green slime quite the Achilles' heel. Still, would be a fun thing to play around with, and a druid's wet dream.

[Segev]

PaO explicitly grants the Int of the new form. If you PaO your dumb half-orc barbarian companion into an Ethergaunt, his intelligence explodes to enormous heights for as long as the spell remains in place. When it expires or is dispelled, he returns to being his half-orc self, and his Int returns to normal for him.

If you PaO an arrow into a red dragon, it will be a red dragon - complete with the dragon's intelligence - for 20 min., and then will revert to being an arrow. Sooner, if the PaO is dispelled. The arrow has the Int of an arrow: --.

If you PaO an arrow into a tree, the duration will last longer (possibly even permanent). If you Awaken that tree, its intelligence is now much higher than the arrow's --, which will possibly shorten the duration. If the duration expires or the PaO is dispelled, the Awakened tree turns back into an arrow. The arrow's intelligence returns to being what it was as part of the original form: --.


So, sadly, no, this doesn't work, because PaO would take the new Int with it when it went away. On the other hand, you could PaO something into an Awakened tree (or just make it simpler and make it a Treant).

[Baroknik]

I mainly was looking to exploit the extremely not well-defined nature of green slime in conjunction with mobile green slime. Sentience is a bit of a side benefit, but having something that uses the green slime mechanic that can move around would be freakishly good. Partially depending on DM interpretation of the implied biomass conversion, which, again, is extremely ill-defined. But even absent the geometric growth patterns possible, it can straight up destroy all but stone on contact (no saves mentioned...though I assume magic items still gain them as normal), will likely dissolve undead on contact (again, I am trying hard to see where undead would even get a save, though it might take some rounds for them to be wholly consumed), and spells a relatively quick death to any creature not familiar with methods of destroying it.

Sadly, light immunity is rather hard to get in-game, which gives the awakened green slime quite the Achilles' heel. Still, would be a fun thing to play around with, and a druid's wet dream.

Would a fallen Shadow Sun Ninja grant light immunity? I'm AFB, but I know it gives vampire sun immunity...

[Heliomance]

If you PaO an arrow into a tree, the duration will last longer (possibly even permanent). If you Awaken that tree, its intelligence is now much higher than the arrow's --, which will possibly shorten the duration. If the duration expires or the PaO is dispelled, the Awakened tree turns back into an arrow. The arrow's intelligence returns to being what it was as part of the original form: --.

I would dispute that. Awaken's duration is Instantaneous - once it's happened, there's no way to un-happen it. As far as I can tell, the only possible RAW-legal way for it to work is that when the Awakened tree reverts to being an arrow, you have an Awakened arrow.

Oddly enough, I'm pretty sure any object Awakened in this manner would retain the Plant type, no matter what it was made of.

[Segev]

I would dispute that. Awaken's duration is Instantaneous - once it's happened, there's no way to un-happen it. As far as I can tell, the only possible RAW-legal way for it to work is that when the Awakened tree reverts to being an arrow, you have an Awakened arrow.

Oddly enough, I'm pretty sure any object Awakened in this manner would retain the Plant type, no matter what it was made of.

Nope. You're mistaking the order of operations. It's not that PAO is "undoing" the Awaken. It's that the creature into which the arrow was transformed now has an intelligence different than the arrow's, so when PAO ends, the arrow's Int score is restored.

This isn't a case of "undoing" the spell or making the target become ineligible (which wouldn't work anyway, since spells only check validity of target at time of casting), but a case of the termination of the spell having specific effects which happen to de facto "undo" the Awaken spell.

In no way is the Awaken spell un-happening. The intelligent tree is just turning back into an unintelligent arrow when PAO wears off.


edit: Consider, again, the half-orc barbarian. Let's say his Int is 8. He's PAO'd into a tree, then Awakened, gaining an Int of 15. When the PAO ends, he returns to being a humanoid half-orc with Int 8; he doesn't somehow remain a plant half-orc with Int 15.

Similarly, the Grey Elf wizard with Int 30 who PAOs himself into a tree is Awakened by a druid to become a plant tree with Int 14. The PAO is later dispelled or the duration wears off. You again have a Grey Elf Wizard with Int 30, not a plant grey elf wizard with Int 14.


I am unsure if the grey elf wizard-turned-tree, once Awakened, would have Wizard levels while PAO'd, nor whether this would be true of the half-orc-turned-tree and barbarian levels.

[Heliomance]

edit: Consider, again, the half-orc barbarian. Let's say his Int is 8. He's PAO'd into a tree, then Awakened, gaining an Int of 15. When the PAO ends, he returns to being a humanoid half-orc with Int 8; he doesn't somehow remain a plant half-orc with Int 15.

I disagree. I agree that, RAI and RAMS it's an absolutely ludicrous result, but I'm pretty sure that RAW, he does indeed become a plant half-orc with Int 15.

[Segev]

I disagree. I agree that, RAI and RAMS it's an absolutely ludicrous result, but I'm pretty sure that RAW, he does indeed become a plant half-orc with Int 15.

Alright. Let's consider this one step further:

I polymorph your half-orc buddy into a tree. You cast Awaken Tree on him.

Does this Awakened Tree have the memories and personality of the half-orc barbarian? Does it have his class levels?

Or is it a different entity entirely, mentally and spiritually? It has none of his original stats as a tree, and nothing in Awaken Tree says it gives these traits to something which did not have them at the time of its casting. (In fact, it pretty well assumes that nothing upon which it is cast will have them prior to the casting.)

[Heliomance]

Alright. Let's consider this one step further:

I polymorph your half-orc buddy into a tree. You cast Awaken Tree on him.

Does this Awakened Tree have the memories and personality of the half-orc barbarian? Does it have his class levels?

Or is it a different entity entirely, mentally and spiritually? It has none of his original stats as a tree, and nothing in Awaken Tree says it gives these traits to something which did not have them at the time of its casting. (In fact, it pretty well assumes that nothing upon which it is cast will have them prior to the casting.)

It probably does have his memories, personality, and class levels, yes. After all, if you PAO's him into a Hydra, said Hydra would have all those things.
EDIT: It definitely does, yes. PAO inherits from Polymorph, which inherits from Alter Self. Alter Self contains this section:

Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

If you PAO Bob into a tree, and then cast Awaken Tree, you're not targetting Bob-the-tree, you're targetting Bob, who happens to currently be a tree. He's still Bob, he's just a tree. When the PAO wears off, he continues to be Bob. And if Bob had Awaken Tree cast on him when he happened to be a legal target, then Bob continues to be affected by the instantaneous Awaken Tree even when he is no longer a legal target.

My point is, PAOing Bob doesn't remove Bob from existence and replace him with a tree. It turns Bob into a tree. The tree is the same entity as Bob. Thus, the effects of Awaken Tree are continuous.

[illyahr]

It probably does have his memories, personality, and class levels, yes. After all, if you PAO's him into a Hydra, said Hydra would have all those things.
EDIT: It definitely does, yes. PAO inherits from Polymorph, which inherits from Alter Self. Alter Self contains this section:


If you PAO Bob into a tree, and then cast Awaken Tree, you're not targetting Bob-the-tree, you're targetting Bob, who happens to currently be a tree. He's still Bob, he's just a tree. When the PAO wears off, he continues to be Bob. And if Bob had Awaken Tree cast on him when he happened to be a legal target, then Bob continues to be affected by the instantaneous Awaken Tree even when he is no longer a legal target.

My point is, PAOing Bob doesn't remove Bob from existence and replace him with a tree. It turns Bob into a tree. The tree is the same entity as Bob. Thus, the effects of Awaken Tree are continuous.

Actually, PaO specifically says it grants the Intelligence score (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) of the new form. Can you give a non-quantity?

[Segev]

So, your contention is that Bob, PAO'd into a tree, has Bob's memories and class levels, and the hit dice and everything of Bob, despite being an object?

Does this mean that a sword polymorphed into a Vrock lacks the Vrock's HD and and such because it's still the sword?

[Heliomance]

So, your contention is that Bob, PAO'd into a tree, has Bob's memories and class levels, and the hit dice and everything of Bob, despite being an object?

Does this mean that a sword polymorphed into a Vrock lacks the Vrock's HD and and such because it's still the sword?

What we can take away from this is that the Polymorph series are really badly written :P

But not quite. Bob, PAO'd into a tree, has Bob's memories (though possibly suppressed because Int -), Bob's hit points, and Bob's class abilities. The spell says nothing about class levels and HD. A sword polymorphed into a Vrock has the Vrock's normal HD for effects where HD matters, but the hit points it always had, because objects do indeed have hit points.

[Dalebert]

That's adding things to Awaken that it specifically does not do. Presumably there's a suppressed mind in the object that used to be the orc. It's like he's in a deep sleep. He's an object so he has no senses and no mind... at the moment. Awaken CREATES a mind and soul and puts it into an inanimate object. Where does that new mind and soul go if the tree turns back into the original orc that had its own mind and soul? I honestly don't know. It's not addressed in the rules. But for sure, it's not the effect of Awaken to cause an existing soul to express. It's probably silly to argue RAW on this because it's simply not something they considered. I think all you can do is argue how you would handle it as a DM and why. If a DM decided to have the orc wake up, they can certainly decide that and it wouldn't be outrageous, but don't claim it's RAW. That's not what Awaken does as written, but they could decide by fiat that this is how they will have these two effects interact.

Here's one way to look at it, and I'm going to remove the complication of two souls. Using the PaO case for reference, that's something that can suppress a mind right? Like if you turn an orc into an arrow, his mind is suppressed. He's deep asleep and his mind doesn't currently do anything. It's on pause. So let's say you turn green slime into a tree and Awaken it. Awaken created a new soul. Now if the PaO gets dispelled, you have a green slime again. It still has a soul but it's been suppressed because green slimes don't have minds or souls, or at least they're very dumb ones. And it can't move. Awaken can only give trees movement powers. Now that it's a green slime, it's still been awakened, but it can't move or think as long as it remains a green slime. Cast PaO on it again and turn it back into a tree, and it's mind and soul will be able to express themselves again via the Awaken spell.

All I'm saying is that's one way to handle it that seems reasonable. I don't think there's a RAW answer at all. It's too outside the realm of what the authors were considering.

That said, I'm surprised people haven't tried to contrive some more mundane scheme to weaponize green slime.

[ace rooster]

'Awakened' is basically an aquired template, so the question may as well be generalised to one about how PAO interacts with templates aquired in the new form. I would rule that the template is maintained if the object in question still qualifies for it, but not if it does not. For example, a half orc PAO into a gnome and then necropolitanised would remain necrod when PAO was dispelled, but a half orc PAO into a bear and then war trained would not become a war trained half orc when PAO ended, amusing as that is.

PAO is ambiguous in effect, because it doesn't explicitly state how the HD of the target are affected. Presumably PAO a shrew into a manticore would grant it the racial HD of a manticore, replacing the racial HD of the shrew, but this is never stated. What happens when a character with class levels is PAO is not even touched (unless you consider that to be duplicating polymorph). There are two possibilities; first that racial hit dice are added until the targets HD equals the racial HD of the creature they are being polymorphed into (resulting in a creature with less than normal racial HD, but class levels bring it up to normal), and the second is that you simply add the racial HD. The second brings PAO up to 9th level spell power at least, so I would go with the first.

[Phelix-Mu]

Actually, as I may have mentioned, I don't much care about the Int score. The effects of awaken are much broader than making something intelligent. The key points that I am looking for, in particular, are that the creature gains mobility and Cha and Wis scores, which are necessary for something to now be considered a creature and not an object.

Thus, I think for my purposes, the Int now matching the original object is irrelevant, since a mindless green slime creature is just fine, as the druid can command it or whatever.

For the record, I believe that awaken's instantaneous nature causes the now creature to interact differently with it's original form, as Heliomance suggests. Dalebert brings up some interesting points, though.

And, @Dalebert, I am going to have to add Grandmaster of Green Slime to my list of qualifications. One of my druids, this was like half her schtick in this one epic battle. She filled a cave with plant creatures, tossed green slime on them, let it grow and consume them, flooded the cave by redirecting an underground river, then bored a tunnel to the surface of the battlefield. Her plan, which managed to work reasonably well, was to flashflood/tsunami through the cave and out onto the battlefield. Creatures would be caught up in the water, which was full of green slime. Unfortunately, it was an indiscriminate weapon, but a nice way to turn the tables once things started going pear-shaped.

Her backup plan was to use a whirlwind to distribute the slime, but that would be even harder to control. The plan was really only usable at night, but luckily it was an enemy that hated the sun and was pretty likely to blanket the battlefield in darkness at some point, which did indeed happen, allowing the slime plan to work. Doubly good that most of the allies were actually people my druid couldn't actually trust in the long run, and didn't want hanging around the Prime anyway (devils and celestials, mainly).

The basic application of slime is to use it in tinted glass bottles, or to shrink item on it. Toss at target, and stand well back.:smallsmile:

[Segev]

From a practical standpoint, if you intend to use this in an actual game, I'd honestly suggest researching, IC, a spell that lets you do what Awaken does but to green slime.

[Heliomance]

'Awakened' is basically an aquired template, so the question may as well be generalised to one about how PAO interacts with templates aquired in the new form. I would rule that the template is maintained if the object in question still qualifies for it, but not if it does not. For example, a half orc PAO into a gnome and then necropolitanised would remain necrod when PAO was dispelled, but a half orc PAO into a bear and then war trained would not become a war trained half orc when PAO ended, amusing as that is.

PAO is ambiguous in effect, because it doesn't explicitly state how the HD of the target are affected. Presumably PAO a shrew into a manticore would grant it the racial HD of a manticore, replacing the racial HD of the shrew, but this is never stated. What happens when a character with class levels is PAO is not even touched (unless you consider that to be duplicating polymorph). There are two possibilities; first that racial hit dice are added until the targets HD equals the racial HD of the creature they are being polymorphed into (resulting in a creature with less than normal racial HD, but class levels bring it up to normal), and the second is that you simply add the racial HD. The second brings PAO up to 9th level spell power at least, so I would go with the first.

There's a third possibility, which I think is likely the case: it overwrites your HD completely for effects that check HD, but this doesn't affect your hit points, feats, or class abilities at all.

[Bronk]

Presumably there's a suppressed mind in the object that used to be the orc. It's like he's in a deep sleep. He's an object so he has no senses and no mind... at the moment.


I think this would be an interesting plot hook in conjunction with 'speak with plants'.

[ace rooster]

There's a third possibility, which I think is likely the case: it overwrites your HD completely for effects that check HD, but this doesn't affect your hit points, feats, or class abilities at all.

It could, but it would make the shrew into manticore example a bit silly, as it would have a BAB of +0, 1HP, and one feat (probably skill focus hide). It might apply only apply to creatures with class levels, but then a creature is much worse off if it has one class level.

I rejected it as a possibility because it either leads to large discontinuities of effect, or very strange effects like manticores with 1hp.

[Phelix-Mu]

I rejected it as a possibility because it either leads to large discontinuities of effect, or very strange effects like manticores with 1hp.

Emphasis mine.

You say that like that would be more silly than a spell that can turn pebbles into people and mice into manticores.:smalltongue:

This was all really more of a TO thing, to be honest. Clearly, a researched spell would overcome these problems just fine, but I was interested in the RAW because I hadn't heard of anyone else tinkering with this particular interaction.

In truth, I think a bigger problem might be something like maximized empowered awaken on animals, who you then polymorph into humanoids. Which could net you a nice source of humanoids with incredible mental stats. Problematic due to experience costs, but that can likely be done away with as well via some other trick.

I really think either of the interpretations being discussed could probably be exploited, honestly. PaO really is that bad a spell concept. Turn anything into anything else? Surely balanced.:smallamused:

[ace rooster]

Emphasis mine.

You say that like that would be more silly than a spell that can turn pebbles into people and mice into manticores.:smalltongue:

This was all really more of a TO thing, to be honest. Clearly, a researched spell would overcome these problems just fine, but I was interested in the RAW because I hadn't heard of anyone else tinkering with this particular interaction.

In truth, I think a bigger problem might be something like maximized empowered awaken on animals, who you then polymorph into humanoids. Which could net you a nice source of humanoids with incredible mental stats. Problematic due to experience costs, but that can likely be done away with as well via some other trick.

I really think either of the interpretations being discussed could probably be exploited, honestly. PaO really is that bad a spell concept. Turn anything into anything else? Surely balanced.:smallamused:

Lol, PAO on a genius awakened bear into a human leaves you with ... an average int 10 human. Slightly better Cha and Wis though. :smallannoyed:

RAW you simply cannot do the shrew to manticore thing, as polymorph is limited by target HD, and the description of PAO does not change this.

A level 8 spell to create a creature without spell like or supernatural abilities, up to 15 HD (The limitations of polymorph, which are not boosted)? Summon monster 8 can get you a 21HD elemental, and planar binding is already well past. Converting an army of ogres into an army of stone giants is hardly broken for level 15, and turning a low level half dragon into a large proper dragon (without breath weapon) is cool, but not OP.

The concept for PAO is fine (And iconic), they just never actually got round to writing the spell. Awaken is also fine, with divine magic being unsuitable for industrial use.

[Gemini476]

Normally, interactions like this don't always work with creatures due to type restrictions that are harder to deal with, but objects don't have types. It's either a tree, or it's not, and it's previous state is irrelevant.
It's not very relevant in this case since the only type Awaken checks for is Animal, but trees are generally living objects with the Plant type IIRC.

The trick itself seems like it may work, but the interactions between PaO's INT replacement and Awaken seem like they might be weird. Also the durations, and what exactly happens when PaO ends. And everything to do with PaO, really.

[Phelix-Mu]

It's not very relevant in this case since the only type Awaken checks for is Animal, but trees are generally living objects with the Plant type IIRC.

The trick itself seems like it may work, but the interactions between PaO's INT replacement and Awaken seem like they might be weird. Also the durations, and what exactly happens when PaO ends. And everything to do with PaO, really.

Nope, trees, and other non-plant creature plants are objects. The game doesn't care that they are alive or not (well, not much), and they have no type.

[Heliomance]

It could, but it would make the shrew into manticore example a bit silly, as it would have a BAB of +0, 1HP, and one feat (probably skill focus hide). It might apply only apply to creatures with class levels, but then a creature is much worse off if it has one class level.

I rejected it as a possibility because it either leads to large discontinuities of effect, or very strange effects like manticores with 1hp.

That's exactly what happens. Turns out, shrews make crap manticores. Who'da thunk?

[ace rooster]

That's exactly what happens. Turns out, shrews make crap manticores. Who'da thunk?

But what happens when you polymorph a dead shrew into a manticore? Either the manticore has 0HP from the shrew, 1HP from treating the shrew as an object, or full manticore HD. If it is the first, then PAO is really underpowered for an 8th level spell. If the second then the best plan will always be to turn a 10ft boulder into things (1800HP), and we still don't get BAB or feats. If the third then transmuting a live shrew is massively less powerful, and we get a discontinuity of effect.

RAW the shrew cannot be made into a manticore at all (not nearly enough HD), but as this is one of the transormations listed we have to assume that RAI this should be possible. Objects do not have HD at all, so when the spell lets you 'polymorph' an object into a creature RAW it does not do anything at all, as standard polymorph effects are not able to increase HD. The only differences from standard polymorph as written are possibly increased duration, granting the int of the new form, and being able to duplicate some other spells. This seems a bit on the underwhelming side for an 8th level spell.

PAO really isn't broken, because RAW it doesn't actually do anything new (It says it can affect objects, so it can. It does not evade the HD restriction of polymorph thought, so it can only affect objects with HD :smallconfused:. Petrified creatures are an example, so such things do exist). It can be broken when DMs try to run it RAI, but don't actually limit what it can do. It needs to be house ruled to function at all.

Incidently, an 8th level spell is not broken just because it can be exploited (And I'm not seeing any big exploits that don't work with standard polymorph, except maybe turning a low int outsider wizard into a planatar to get a base int of 22). There is almost certainly nothing near the power of greater planar binding, even without cheese.

[Heliomance]

I would say 1HP from treating the dead shrew as an object. And then Polymorphing a boulder into whatever isn't the best option, because, as you pointed out, it doesn't have any BAB or feats.

[Dalebert]

Incidently, an 8th level spell is not broken just because it can be exploited...

I would say the whole point of magic is to exploit it. Magic is all about breaking the normal rules of objective reality so you can do things that would otherwise be impossible.

[Phelix-Mu]

I would say the whole point of magic is to exploit it. Magic is all about breaking the normal rules of objective reality so you can do things that would otherwise be impossible.

Agreed. But, on the other hand, how much game and table resource do we want to devote to one spell? It's one thing to use this during downtime, but the obvious problem occurs when, suddenly, you have x and want y (which could happen a lot).

Wizard Player: "Well, we really need a tank for this next fight, so I'm going to PaO this x into y, a tanky-creature thing."

DM: *sigh* "Alright, well, I guess I should have seen that coming. Why don't we decide what pizza to order while I try to figure out what kind of stats y has."

I mean, normal polymorph is already a load of paperwork, but at least the player can handle most of it themselves. PaO tosses the ball right back in the DM's court, as it is so vague that stats basically need to be created out of whole cloth (specifically for things becoming creatures and vice verse). Ostensibly, planning ahead can mean the stats are at hand, but that is really hard to do when it could be almost any x and y imaginable.

Frankly, it's just too much of a good thing, with such poor execution that it is almost useless (or so useful that it does anything). Add in bad design for actual table-use, and I'm inclined to toss it on the scrapheap.

[Dalebert]

I mean, normal polymorph is already a load of paperwork, but at least the player can handle most of it themselves. PaO tosses the ball right back in the DM's court, as it is so vague that stats basically need to be created out of whole cloth (specifically for things becoming creatures and vice verse). Ostensibly, planning ahead can mean the stats are at hand, but that is really hard to do when it could be almost any x and y imaginable.

Frankly, it's just too much of a good thing, with such poor execution that it is almost useless (or so useful that it does anything). Add in bad design for actual table-use, and I'm inclined to toss it on the scrapheap.

Absolutely, but a lot of the rules-writing was sloppy and lazy like that. PaO isn't that much of an exception. House rules are pretty much a necessity in this game sooner or later. You can house rule PaO away completely or you can just decide for yourself how you want it to work and be upfront with the players about that before they're even committing it to their known spells but I think it's a given that you can't DM in autopilot all the time.

[Phelix-Mu]

I typically reserve my headaches for curveballs from my players, not for game features. TO-wise, PaO is cool to goof around with. At an actual table, it gets axed down to polymorphing objects into objects, and has a niche use where it can polymorph the form of a magic item for pretty cheap xp (so, for example, a +1 longsword becomes a +1 battleaxe, cloak of resistance +3 into boots of resistance +3). That's my personal houserule, and probably justifies ratcheting the spell down to 7th or so, but, meh, whatever. None of my players has expressed a specific desire to use it, so it remains a bit vague (part of my off-stage DM hocus-pocus).

The inspiration for this is almost certainly stuff from the myths, which is always iconic (sow dragon's teeth, get skeletal army), but often not particularly easy to execute. And, to boot, I seem to remember the 2e version of PaO working in a similar[ly broken] manner, meaning they might have grandfathered a totally borked spell into the new edition without giving it a decent think-through.

[Segev]

PAO has one more thing it explicitly does differently from polymorph: It can turn objects into other objects or creatures and creatures into objects, as well as creatures into other creatures.

Since it can explicitly do this, it technically overrides the limitations which would prevent this.

Unfortunately, it fails to provide good rules for how object->creature works, and its guidelines indicate a much more flexible allowance of transformation between creatures than polymorph allows, but again it provides no explicit rules to state what those changes encompass.

It should probably have a clause that adds HD of the appropriate type to bring the target up to the number of HD of the target creature, and include HD additions in the duration calculation. To minimize paperwork, the new creature uses the hp, BAB, and saves of the original form or a standard creature of the new form, whichever is higher. If the polymorph changes a non-stat into a stat, use the target form's stat (e.g. a biscuit into a horse would have Wis and Cha based on a standard horse, as well as the HD, hp, BAB, saves, etc. of a horse). Otherwise (since they apparently intended this to be the case), use the Wis and Cha of the original form.

[Dalebert]

And, to boot, I seem to remember the 2e version of PaO working in a similar[ly broken] manner, meaning they might have grandfathered a totally borked spell into the new edition without giving it a decent think-through.

I do recall that in 2E, you could turn a metal object of any size into gold and it would be permanent. I had people argue with me but they were arguing purely from emotion and not RAW. It was right there in the chart. There were no limits on what you could actually affect, including size/mass. The only limit was reflected in the duration which was up to the DM based on some guidelines listed, none of which were changed going from one type of metal to another of the same shape.

Step 1: Wall of Iron
Step 2: PaO
Step 3: Profit!

Even easier, turn a hunk of quartz into the Hope diamond. Permanent.

[ace rooster]

Agreed. But, on the other hand, how much game and table resource do we want to devote to one spell? It's one thing to use this during downtime, but the obvious problem occurs when, suddenly, you have x and want y (which could happen a lot).

Wizard Player: "Well, we really need a tank for this next fight, so I'm going to PaO this x into y, a tanky-creature thing."

DM: *sigh* "Alright, well, I guess I should have seen that coming. Why don't we decide what pizza to order while I try to figure out what kind of stats y has."

I mean, normal polymorph is already a load of paperwork, but at least the player can handle most of it themselves. PaO tosses the ball right back in the DM's court, as it is so vague that stats basically need to be created out of whole cloth (specifically for things becoming creatures and vice verse). Ostensibly, planning ahead can mean the stats are at hand, but that is really hard to do when it could be almost any x and y imaginable.

Frankly, it's just too much of a good thing, with such poor execution that it is almost useless (or so useful that it does anything). Add in bad design for actual table-use, and I'm inclined to toss it on the scrapheap.

Less paperwork than the summon monster line, given that forms do not get even extraordinary special qualities. Chances are a caster will have a few favorites, and they will stick to them (partly because of the reasons you outline). I'm not sure why you think the DM will be doing the paperwork, as PAO used on a creature that the DM wants to hide the stats of will generally be turning it into a goldfish anyway. You don't even have to worry about augment summoning type effects, so you can read straight from the monster manual. Using the variant Segev suggests even boosting a random creature is fairly easy, with the only decision being what feats. Given that the resulting creature will generally have the same number of feats as the thing you are polymorphing into, you can select from the feats they have in the monster manual, and in almost all cases you will have enough.

It seems like too much of an iconic spell to completely throw away, doing things like staff to serpent, or building an army of giants from mooks. It could be split up into many different spells, but it seems harder work than just fixing it by letting it add HD, while keeping the limits of polymorph.