Warmages: Fireball all day long, imbalanced?

[GraySeaJones]

I don't know if this belongs in the Homebrew section or not. I'd just like to get a quick opinion, if possible.

For background: I'm currently readying a campaign for inexperienced players. My aim is to keep the party reasonably balanced: the only classes available are Tier 3-4, and the game will run through levels 6-11. At the same time, I want to keep options limited, so as not to overwhelm players: Feat/PrC options are mostly just Core + ToB, with some simple exceptions for builds that need the help (Darkstalker and Craven, for example.)

Now, one of the players wants to blast. Fine with me, but the only Tier 3-4 class I know of that can do that is the Warmage. At the same time, another player wants to play a Warblade, which has a very low optimization floor, and which would overshadow a straightforward Warmage without even trying.

I would prefer not to dictate build choices to players, so I am leaning towards very simple homebrew fixes. One such idea was to ignore spells/day for Warmages. It's an extreme and poorly thought out 'fix', but I personally did not think it was particularly problematic, given that


Warmages don't run out of spells too easily to begin with
Warmage damage is fairly low (approximately on par with low-OP Warblades for single targets, less for resistance and successful saves)
The player's build/feats will be very straightforward (mostly Core)
Sculpt spell is not available, so it's difficult to blast in the thick of melee
Personal reason, I don't want to see the character ditched by the group for running low on spells

but then again, I am prone to missing very obvious problems. Could someone explain to me any potential balance issues they can see?

If this doesn't do it, then are there any fixes that others can suggest? Feat/PrC suggestions are fine too, as long as the concept can be summed up in about a sentence.

TL;DR In a low-OP, primarily Core+ToB group, is it unbalanced to let Warmages blast all day?

[nyjastul69]

Why not suggest a Warlock?

[Marlowe]

Or maybe some reserve feats?

[Troacctid]

Warblades are melee, Warmages are ranged/AoE. They can do some things better than a Warblade. I don't think it's going to be too problematic. If you're really worried, why not have them play a regular Sorcerer? They're only T2 in theory--in practice, when they're not intentionally trying to break the game, they typically end up in T3, and poorly optimized Sorcerers can easily fall to T4.

Giving Warmages unlimited spell slots would just mean that there'd be no point in even having lower level spells at all. They'd just use their highest-level spell slots all the time. If they really need at-will powers, give them reserve feats. The +1 CL "secondary benefit" is actually really good for a Warmage anyway.

[GraySeaJones]

Thank you for your help thus far.


Why not suggest a Warlock?

I had completely forgotten the Warlock -__-; Honestly, it seems like a good fit for the campaign - reasonably versatile, yet simple to learn and play. I will suggest it to the player. Hopefully he is not too bent on slinging Fireballs.


Or maybe some reserve feats?

I do not have a lot of experience with reserve feats, but I am looking into them. They seem decent for Warmages, and simple enough to suggest.


Warblades are melee, Warmages are ranged/AoE. They can do some things better than a Warblade. I don't think it's going to be too problematic. If you're really worried, why not have them play a regular Sorcerer? They're only T2 in theory--in practice, when they're not intentionally trying to break the game, they typically end up in T3, and poorly optimized Sorcerers can easily fall to T4.

Well, there are a lot of core options that cause Sorcerers to overshadow mundanes, and various simple things that certain players have been traumatized by previously (Greater Invisibility + Flight is simple and shuts down meleers, and both are useful spells on their own) Since the players don't know much about what magic items to look out for, I'm worried that even a Sorcerer could be problematic.

Edit:


Giving Warmages unlimited spell slots would just mean that there'd be no point in even having lower level spells at all. They'd just use their highest-level spell slots all the time.

I do not think this is a problem, per se. There are still lower-level spells that are situationally useful, and low-level blasting spells get useless anyway as you level up.

[Nihilarian]

Maybe convert the Warmage so it's running on spells/encounter instead of spells/day? A not completely broken Arcane Swordsage kind of deal?

I swear I've seen a homebrew class like that on these boards, actually.

Beyond that, the Warlock and Dragonfire Adept are both Tier 4 and pretty good blasters. You could also take a look at Psionics.

[Troacctid]

Maybe convert the Warmage so it's running on spells/encounter instead of spells/day? A not completely broken Arcane Swordsage kind of deal?

That wouldn't really work with the amount of spells/day they get. Encounters don't last long enough. It'd end up functionally the same as the at-will version.

You could try porting the 5e Warlock. They have a small selection of at-will cantrips and invocations, as well as 6th-level casting with spell slots that refresh completely on a short rest.

[Vogonjeltz]

I don't know if this belongs in the Homebrew section or not. I'd just like to get a quick opinion, if possible.

For background: I'm currently readying a campaign for inexperienced players. My aim is to keep the party reasonably balanced: the only classes available are Tier 3-4, and the game will run through levels 6-11. At the same time, I want to keep options limited, so as not to overwhelm players: Feat/PrC options are mostly just Core + ToB, with some simple exceptions for builds that need the help (Darkstalker and Craven, for example.)

Now, one of the players wants to blast. Fine with me, but the only Tier 3-4 class I know of that can do that is the Warmage. At the same time, another player wants to play a Warblade, which has a very low optimization floor, and which would overshadow a straightforward Warmage without even trying.

I would prefer not to dictate build choices to players, so I am leaning towards very simple homebrew fixes. One such idea was to ignore spells/day for Warmages. It's an extreme and poorly thought out 'fix', but I personally did not think it was particularly problematic, given that


Warmages don't run out of spells too easily to begin with
Warmage damage is fairly low (approximately on par with low-OP Warblades for single targets, less for resistance and successful saves)
The player's build/feats will be very straightforward (mostly Core)
Sculpt spell is not available, so it's difficult to blast in the thick of melee
Personal reason, I don't want to see the character ditched by the group for running low on spells

but then again, I am prone to missing very obvious problems. Could someone explain to me any potential balance issues they can see?

If this doesn't do it, then are there any fixes that others can suggest? Feat/PrC suggestions are fine too, as long as the concept can be summed up in about a sentence.

TL;DR In a low-OP, primarily Core+ToB group, is it unbalanced to let Warmages blast all day?

What could possible go wrong with unlimited castings of Prismatic wall?

[GraySeaJones]

Maybe convert the Warmage so it's running on spells/encounter instead of spells/day?

Beyond that, the Warlock and Dragonfire Adept are both Tier 4 and pretty good blasters. You could also take a look at Psionics.

Encounters tend to last 4-7 rounds, so encounter-based spellcasting isn't that different from casting all day. And if the spellcasting is balanced for a usual combat, then combat dragging on could be a death sentence.

I'm explaining Warlock to the player now. I don't know if I want to involve psionics, because the players have certain expectations from the game. Learning Tome of Battle is enough for them at the moment.

Edit:


What could possible go wrong with unlimited castings of Prismatic wall?

The campaign is set between levels 6-11. No 8th level spells available, beyond possible cheese that would make me congratulate the player.

But your point still stands. I'm beginning to realize some of the broken options. Infinite Walls of Ice/Force seem amazing in dungeons.......

[Nihilarian]

That wouldn't really work with the amount of spells/day they get. Encounters don't last long enough. It'd end up functionally the same as the at-will version.Yeah, I didn't expect it to go by without tweaking.

[Daishain]

You don't necessarily need to do anything, just let him know that there's an opportunity to optimize. There's a nice little trick when it comes to the Warmage. Their spells known = their spell list. Any feats, features and PrCs that tack spells onto the spell list can greatly expand their repertoire.

For instance, Rainbow servant PrC. Ten levels of that and your Warmage can suddenly cast all standard cleric spells, plus those on the air, law and good domain lists just as often as any of the standard ones he gets. Only catch is the rainbow wings, though I suspect others won't mind as much as I would.

Do enough digging and splicing, and what comes out the other end is a bit of a monstrosity, but grants a huge variety of spells known. Greatly increasing versatility, and thus the effective tier. For instance, there was one theoretical build I came up with a while back that would probably rank as a low to mid end tier 1, though a lot of cheese was involved.

My suggestion? Point him in that direction and let him figure out what appeals, but be prepared to veto anything too crazy.

A good and fairly balanced option that happens to be a favorite of mine would be Mage of the Arcane Order. It would give him a means of accessing the entire PHB sor/wiz spell list (possibly even more, the language suggests that the DM consider allowing for spells from other sources), albeit in a manner that makes it difficult for him to spam the spells he gets through it. He gets to be a blaster in combat, with the option to set up some less direct offense spells for combat, and lets him contribute in a major way when the arrows aren't flying as well

[re_e]

I'm beginning to realize some of the broken options. Infinite Walls of Ice/Force seem amazing in dungeons.......

You can try the recharge magic variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm) and apply a specific recharge time to any broken spell.

[Extra Anchovies]

Rainbow Servant is probably the best thing that can happen to a Warmage, but it's already mentioned so I'll chip in the second best thing. The Sand Shaper. A one-level dip costs one caster level, and adds forty-three spells to your list of spells known. Forty. Three. Granted, it's more useful for Sorcerers because their spells known are more limited, but it gives the Warmage enough versatility to launch it up into T3 with the other list-casters.

You get a nine-level chain of summoning spells. You get buffs. You get Dispel Magic. You get battlefield control. It's amazing.

...I need to play a Sand Shaper.

[Daishain]

Rainbow Servant is probably the best thing that can happen to a Warmage, but it's already mentioned so I'll chip in the second best thing. The Sand Shaper. A one-level dip costs one caster level, and adds forty-three spells to your list of spells known. Forty. Three. Granted, it is more useful for Sorcerers because their spells known are more limited, but it gives the Warmage enough versatility to launch it up into T3 with the other list-casters.

You get a nine-level chain of summoning spells. You get buffs. You get Dispel Magic. You get battlefield control. It's amazing.

...I need to play a Sand Shaper.
Can you imagine adventuring with one though?

Every single evening, you go to take your boots off, and a quarter pound of sand that had been grinding on your feet all day comes pouring out. Not to mention what has managed to work its way into your hose...

[Psyren]

Fireball and Lightning Bolt can destroy objects and barriers. I don't think letting either of these be at-will is a good idea.

[Troacctid]

Fireball and Lightning Bolt can destroy objects and barriers. I don't think letting either of these be at-will is a good idea.

Well, Warmages also get Shatter. As do Warlocks as an at-will least invocation as early as 1st level. And martial initiators have Mountain Hammer, which does +2d6 damage to objects and ignores hardness, as opposed to Lightning Bolt and Fireball, which do 1/2 damage before applying hardness.

[Psyren]

Well, Warmages also get Shatter. As do Warlocks as an at-will least invocation as early as 1st level. And martial initiators have Mountain Hammer, which does +2d6 damage to objects and ignores hardness, as opposed to Lightning Bolt and Fireball, which do 1/2 damage before applying hardness.

1) That's only to most objects. Some, like wood, do take full damage from fire.
2) Shatter (and Mountain Hammer) can't be used from 400 ft. away, nor smash through a barrier to damage the objects or creatures behind it. Shatter also has a weight limit, making it very hard to destroy something like, say, a carriage, ship, or most walls.

[Madhava]

I'm currently readying a campaign for inexperienced players.

Unless your friends are fast learners & extremely competitive, I'd say you're being overcautious. You'd probably be fine with a Sorcerer & whatever else, especially at levels 6-11. Encourage him to pick whatever spells & feats he thinks sound good, & don't help him optimise. And if you need, you can houserule alter self.

Just be ready to tailor encounters a little to fit the PC's capabilities... it shouldn't be too difficult to make each new player feel useful.

[awa]

1) That's only to most objects. Some, like wood, do take full damage from fire.
2) Shatter (and Mountain Hammer) can't be used from 400 ft. away, nor smash through a barrier to damage the objects or creatures behind it. Shatter also has a weight limit, making it very hard to destroy something like, say, a carriage, ship, or most walls.

I don't think it would make a big difference in most games most of the time you want to break objects you are fairly close any way.

A level 10 caster will deal 18 dam a round with a fire ball to an object a, fighter with leap attack will deal 40 from the power attack alone before str weapon or any other bonuses. even against wood its still only 35 and any way wood walls rarely come up in dungeons as a serious impediment. So while infinite fireballs may have some balance issues object smashing is i think not the most pressing.

[Psyren]

I don't think it would make a big difference in most games most of the time you want to break objects you are fairly close any way.

Of course it makes no difference in most games - the spells are limited resources in those games, so the problem never comes up.

But if you give a player a hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail. At-will evocations mean they will reduce the BBEG's entire tower to rubble without ever getting close to it, even if it takes all night to do. Your sundering fighter could theoretically do the same, but would have to get into melee range to do it, thus enabling reasonable counterplay from the DM.

[Yogibear41]

If they are new, TOB if just going to confuse them. Give the guy a fighter and tell him to hit things with swords to learn the basic rules. Then show him the fancy stuff. I would also recommend starting at a lower level, dire rat hunting is a newbies best friend.

[Waker]

Rather than give the Warmage infinite spells, why not just improve their spell-list to do more than simply blast? Don't have to give them quite the same versatility as a Sorcerer, but perhaps add a few Conjuration or Transmutation spells that would be appropriate. Maybe a couple Summon spells and Buffs for instance. That way the character could contribute to combat and non-combat situations without having the same game-breaking potential as a T1-2.

[Nihilarian]

Rather than give the Warmage infinite spells, why not just improve their spell-list to do more than simply blast? Don't have to give them quite the same versatility as a Sorcerer, but perhaps add a few Conjuration or Transmutation spells that would be appropriate. Maybe a couple Summon spells and Buffs for instance. That way the character could contribute to combat and non-combat situations without having the same game-breaking potential as a T1-2.They have an ACF in PHBII that let's them pick up some non-evocation spells.

[Waker]

They have an ACF in PHBII that let's them pick up some non-evocation spells.
True, but that only comes up 4 times over 20 levels and increases the level of the spell. So at 3rd level, you can choose a 0-level spell, 6th level a 2nd level spell, 11th level a 4th level and 16th a 7th level. Somewhat underwhelming.

[sage20500]

Depending on what kind of spells he likes to use off of the Warmage list I'd actually recommend you let him take a look at some of the other caster PRC's, one of the ones the springs to my mind that was always really fun was the Force Missile Mage. Among other things it allows you to actually make magic missile into a very decent spell, and if you let him just have fun picking up all the different kinds of meta magics and show him the Arcane Thesis feat (I'd recommend he writes his thesis for magic missile with this particular build), he'll be able to have all kinds of fun making magic missile anywhere from a 1st to 7th level spell, and each use of it will give him 7 missiles that can do any particular type of elemental damage he needs to. Because you select targets for each individual bolt, it can have the potential to be a quasi aoe spell while at the same time beings a nice single target spell still. For meta magic feats twinned, repeating, and energy admixture all come to mind as hilarious things to use.

As for Sand Shaper I would second that recommendation, mainly because while you loose a caster level as the entry feat, you gain that caster level back by just carrying around 15lbs of sand in a bag of holding, plus in Sandstorm they actually tell you how you can change the PRC to fit any type of wasteland you might find more closely to where the setting is. Even better, it gives the Warmage access to all of the starting stat buff spells, where normally sorcerers only have access to the physical boosting ones.

If the player ever feels like he'd be more interested in a support type roll that can still sling fireballs when needed I'd also recommend the War Weaver PRC from tome of battle, 5 level PRC that basically allows a caster to get all of their buffing done during the first round of combat, which then leaves them the rest of the fight to sling spells at things.

Finally, if you just want to allow him to have fun and go crazy, show him the Incantatrix PRC from Players Guide to Faerun, and just let him go crazy with all the meta magics, honestly when it comes to spells, if you let him have access to the fun meta magics he'll never really care about most high level spells because he can make his lower level spells be better and more hilarious then any level 8 or 9 spell could ever be. If you let him go Incantatrix I'd still recommend letting him take the Arcane Thesis feat, but for this time I'd say let him choose fireball, and then just let him go to town on that. There's nothing more hilarious than casting an invisible, silent, stilled, blistering (Blistering Spell), fiery (Fiery Spell), twinned, energy admixture: sonic fireball and just watching team monster try and figure out just what the hell happened in the area he set that off in. Allow him to grab Elemental Spell Casting: Fire and Spell Focus Evocation and he'll be able to claim he is a true warmage that specializes in being a Combat Engineer.

(I recently just built this version of a warmage for a Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil campaign that a friend of mine had just run, levels 4-14, now granted the main motivation of my character at this point in time was to be able to eventually craft "The Staff of I Glass Everything Fireball" after I found all the delicious things you could allow a caster to do once they had access to some meta magics. For a person who just wanted to have fun building a character that was just extremely good at blasting things into oblivion without without approaching the realms of insanity that the mailman or other builds get into, I had a lot of fun. What makes it best for your players party is if the warblade has both a good int and dex, if he finds a way to get himself Evasion, then he can confidently fight in the zones of glass without ever having to fear his buddy hitting him)

Other than that you can never go wrong with the reserve feats, in particular Fiery Burst actually would be a very good one for him. As long as he never expends all of his most powerful x level spells (They have a fire spell in every slot so this will never be an issue) he'll have a pretty much at will x damage mini fireball that he can spam with. That's probably a much better deal for both him and you than for you to either give him unlimited spells per day and less of a headache than to try to give him x spells/encounter.

[GraySeaJones]

Update: The player still wants to play a Warmage. I have a feeling my concerns did not get through to him over email, but what the heck. This means playing around with devotion feats and Sand Shaper; I'll try not to make any hasty fixes, unless something is really off when we start playing.




Rainbow Servant is probably the best thing that can happen to a Warmage, but it's already mentioned so I'll chip in the second best thing. The Sand Shaper.

I do recall reading about the class, but now that I've actually checked it out...... wow. It fits thematically, too, because the campaign is set in a wasteland. I will let my player know.


Rather than give the Warmage infinite spells, why not just improve their spell-list to do more than simply blast? Don't have to give them quite the same versatility as a Sorcerer, but perhaps add a few Conjuration or Transmutation spells that would be appropriate. Maybe a couple Summon spells and Buffs for instance. That way the character could contribute to combat and non-combat situations without having the same game-breaking potential as a T1-2.

I have considered this. Even just giving them summoning would improve their niche significantly. I was also considering giving them abjurations. I am deliberating on this at the moment.

Edit: The goal here would be to make Warmages masters of combat magic in general, from battlefield control to damage-dealing. Conjuration and Transmutation magic is rare in the setting, so this would be their niche. I don't think this would be a bad fix at all.


If they are new, TOB if just going to confuse them. Give the guy a fighter and tell him to hit things with swords to learn the basic rules. Then show him the fancy stuff. I would also recommend starting at a lower level, dire rat hunting is a newbies best friend.

I, uh...... Well, you see, we're weeaboos, and we're playing Fist of the North Star: D&D edition. Which is similar to Fist of the North Star, but with more killing things and taking their stuff. This is why we want to use ToB, and why we're starting at 6th level. The world itself is mostly E6, with a few NPCs between 7th and 11th level.

Among other things, martial initiators are allowed to narrate how their foes die. So yeah.

Edit: To a certain extent, of course.


At-will evocations mean they will reduce the BBEG's entire tower to rubble without ever getting close to it, even if it takes all night to do.

I rather like the idea of Warmages as artillery, to be honest. I will have to think about it some more, though......

Let's see, here. An utterly horrible Warmage 6 with 14 Int deals 23 damage average with a single Fireball. Stone halves damage and has hardness 8; that's 3.5 average damage per round. To destroy a 5-ft. thick wall with 900 hp, it takes around 260 Fireballs - that's only 26 minutes of work per 5 feet, and using an awful Warmage nonetheless.

As an 11th-level capstone, Disintegrate is essentially high-speed dungeon remodeling. And...... oh, crap. Between at-will Disintegrate and Wall of Ice, Warmages might as well be playing Minecraft.

[Xerlith]

Give him the choice of a "signature spell" per spell level that he can spam without counting against the daily limit. All the other spells use slots as normal. Say it has to be direct damage one and you're set. A bit more elegant solution without unlimited Walls and whatnot.

[Garwain]

I DM'ed a low-optimized group once, and the warmage was overshadowing a druid at lvl 6. He was slinging orbs that always hit never seem to run out, killing things from afar well before the druid made any progress.

And before you all go in shock because druid is supposed to be tier 1 and warmage 'only' tier 3, keep in mind that in low levels, most encounters are ended with brute force and don't require a plethora of skills.

So I would definitely say yes, this is unbalanced.

[Gwendol]

Just pick up versatile spellcaster. Warmages rarely run out of spells, and adding sandshaper to the mix makes them very well-rounded. Arcane disciple is another way of adding spells to the repertoire. You need to explain to your player that warmage edge is a trap, so having a very high INT is NOT a priority.

[Daishain]

You need to explain to your player that warmage edge is a trap, so having a very high INT is NOT a priority.

Yeah, I was really disappointed by that feature first time I saw the Warmage. Least they could do is make it a bonus per die, even if they have to halve it first.

[Gwendol]

I'd say it's not even a factor and really shouldn't have made the cut as a class ability.

[Extra Anchovies]

Yeah, I was really disappointed by that feature first time I saw the Warmage. Least they could do is make it a bonus per die, even if they have to halve it first.

Seconded. It looks really nice at 1st level, when your Magic Missile does more than the enemy wizard's, but once you hit CL 5 or so it stops mattering entirely.

[The Insanity]

Extra Spell is also a thing.

[Gwendol]

Extra Spell is also a thing.

Sure, but it's a little lame to spend a feat on a single spell when arcane disciple gives the whole domain. For a few chosen spells it can certainly be worth it though.

[r2d2go]

To answer the very first question - Fireball all day long would probably be imbalanced. This is E6, right? Consider a warblade at 6th level.

Insightful Strike, with max ranks, a skill tool, and good Con, will deal maybe 25 damage. You can push that with optimization, but you said low-op. Bonecrusher is regular damage plus 4d6, so I'll be generous and say 7d6+10 for 34.5 damage (+1 elemental greatsword with +6 str). Battle Leader's Charge is similar, at 3d6+20 for 30.5 damage.

Now let's look at fireball. Granted, 6d6+2 is only 23 damage, 11.5 with a save. But you deal that to a 20 foot radius. Hit three people and it's at least on par, hit four and you're out damaging warblade.

If we're going single damage? Get +1 CL somewhere and use Scorching Ray. On it's own, it's a respectable touch-attack based 8d6 damage at range - on par with Warblade, probably. Arcane Thesis + Empower is hardly optimization, right? 12d6 (42) damage right there.

Now onto the matter at hand: Warmage pretty obviously outdamages Warblade in the short term. The balancing factor is the spells per day, which means Warmage might lose steam pretty quickly. One thing that might work is giving a modified version of Fiery Burst that deals more damage (normally only 1d6/highest spell level to essentially a 10 foot square - respectable but not great). Adding Warmage Edge and increasing the AoE might be enough? Eh, that can be tempered to your needs.

Another option is to give them the bonus damage half per die (full if they're still behind) - That way, with 18 Int, Burning Hands is a respectable 5d4+10 damage to a small AoE. Getting mileage out of low-level spells means they get to blast all day, but still have to ration their strongest spells.

Hope something there helps :smalltongue:

[DarkSonic1337]

Extra Spell is also a thing.

Technically it has to be from your own class's list and wouldn't help a warmage in any way.

Though it's always worth checking with your DM. Cause a feat for a spell from someone else's list is at least not terrible.

[The Insanity]

Technically it has to be from your own class's list
No it doesn't.

[chaos_redefined]

I DM'ed a low-optimized group once, and the warmage was overshadowing a druid at lvl 6. He was slinging orbs that always hit never seem to run out, killing things from afar well before the druid made any progress.

And before you all go in shock because druid is supposed to be tier 1 and warmage 'only' tier 3, keep in mind that in low levels, most encounters are ended with brute force and don't require a plethora of skills.

So I would definitely say yes, this is unbalanced.

Also, in a low-optimized game, a druid might actually end up weaker than a warmage. If the druid looks at his list and picks all the blasting spells, then the warmage is better at it. An animal companion can make a difference, but if he didn't think of it as a combat option, then it won't.

[DarkSonic1337]

No it doesn't.

Characters learn spells from their own class lists. Extra spell does not explicitly override this rule. There is some debate about this of course,specifically that sorcerers can still learn spells from other lists. Their spell list is not just the wiz/sorc list, but also "unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study." Other classes unfortunately do not have that loose wording.

It's certainly a reasonable houserule to make though.

[The Insanity]

Extra Spell does not say you are limited to your spell list.

[DarkSonic1337]

Extra Spell does not say you are limited to your spell list.

No, but the classes do. Extra spell does not list an EXCEPTION to this. So we use the default rule that classes learn spells from their own lists, and then extra spell simply allows you to learn another one.

If you do houserule this, keep in mind that you'll need a solution for when a spell appears at different levels on multiple lists. Such as if a Duskblade choses to learn haste, which appears as a 4th level celerity domain spell, a 3rd level wiz/sorc spell, a second level Telflammar Shadowlord spell, and a first level Trapsmith spell. Also consider what to do if a player wants to use it to learn a spell that's on their classes's list, but also on another classes's list at a lower level (such as a Sorc also using it to learn haste as an additional spell known).

[Extra Anchovies]

No, but the classes do. Extra spell does not list an EXCEPTION to this. So we use the default rule that classes learn spells from their own lists, and then extra spell simply allows you to learn another one.

If you do houserule this, keep in mind that you'll need a solution for when a spell appears at different levels on multiple lists. Such as if a Duskblade choses to learn haste, which appears as a 4th level celerity domain spell, a 3rd level wiz/sorc spell, a second level Telflammar Shadowlord spell, and a first level Trapsmith spell. Also consider what to do if a player wants to use it to learn a spell that's on their classes's list, but also on another classes's list at a lower level (such as a Sorc also using it to learn haste as an additional spell known).

I'm in agreement with DarkSonic here. And as an aside, why did they feel it was right to give the trapsmith these spells at such low level?

[r2d2go]

I'm in agreement with DarkSonic here. And as an aside, why did they feel it was right to give the trapsmith these spells at such low level?

Probably for the same reason they give Ranger and Paladin some lower leveled spells - They only get up to 4th level. That said, trapsmith has such undercosted spells that it quickly becomes ridiculous :smalltongue:

[Marlowe]

To be fair, I've played with some really ineffective low-level druids. Part of it is people allocating their stats with Wildshape in mind (so dumping STR and DEX...because you'll be a bear, right?) and then picking their spells badly and finding it's hard for them to contribute meaningfully for those first few levels. Part of it is the class seems to encourage people to play at being distant and standoffish, which can easily morph into not even trying to do anything useful if the player's not paying attention.

In at least one case the character was a Halfling, and the player seemed to keep forgetting he wasn't a Ranger or a Rogue, and kept attempting to do stealthy stuff with no DEX and a substantial Armour Check penalty.

And then again, I've played with a Warmage so ineffectual that the party Fighter wound up picking him up and throwing him ahead of us to check for traps.