How can a Cleric break the game without Persistent Spell or Nightstick stacking?

[heavyfuel]

Re-reading the "Why each class is in its tier" the main reason given for the Cleric's Tier One-ness is DMM + Nightstick stacking. Usually this is seen as DMM Persist, but DMM Quicken, Twin and Chain are all very good.

But what if we take this away? You can still use DMM, just not nightsticks, and Persistent Spell is banned (no Spelldancer for you!). Can the cleric still break the game at, say, lv 8? What about lv 12? Without these tricks the cleric really seems to drop to a Tier 3 class, at least until 7th lv spells kick in.

Some assumptions:

- Elite-array stats;
- WBL as per DMG;
- Prestige classes are allowed but discouraged;
- Infinite loops and Chaos Shuffling are forbidden.

Basically, the point of this exercise it to see how well can a Cleric, by himself, perform without things most DMs will consider "shenanigans".

[Dorian Gray]

Tier one is less about raw power and more about versatility. A sorcerer has just as much power as a wizard, but a wizard can change his spells prepared. Similarly, a cleric knows the entire cleric spell list, and can select any spell from it to prepare each day. Put that on top of an awesome chassis (heavy armor, medium BAB that rises to high with divine power, d8 hit dice, good saves), and you have a very durable, versatile class. Clerics most certainly don't need DMM to be tier one- they can be better than any other non-T1 class just fine with only core spells.

[eggynack]

Yes. They have massive piles of magic. There's not really all that much that the cleric list can't do, and when you factor in domains, that number shrinks like crazy. DMM persist is a very nice ability, and it's usually wrong not to make use of it if you have access, but prepared casting off of a massive list is just about the definition of tier one.

[heavyfuel]

Indeed I know that T1 is more versatility than power, but T1 still has power, which the low-ish level cleric seems to lack when you take these things away.

[eggynack]

Indeed I know that T1 is more versatility than power, but T1 still has power, which the low-ish level cleric seems to lack when you take these things away.
Being able to do all of the things to a high degree of competence is power, in and of itself. I don't know the cleric list quite as well as I know the lists of druids and wizards, but at first level you're running a ridiculous number of buffs and debuffs, tempered by some fancy utility and stuff like obscuring mist, at second you have that sort of thing but on a higher level, with effects like silence, shatter, lesser restoration, and augury all being generally nifty, and by third you're going crazy with dispel magic, stone shape, animate dead, and magic circle. I'd call that the turning point, where things go from a pile of really good stuff to a pile of incredibly amazing stuff, if I have to guess.

[ben-zayb]

As for power, it's got at least 2 potential encounter-enders. In Core.

[JKTrickster]

Just don't try to be a Fighter.

Honestly. The whole DMM: Persist is partially due to "Let's take all of our phenomenal cosmic power and become the Party Fighter!"

Don't get me wrong: DMM: Persist is REALLY useful at higher optimization levels. But too often its just for higher numbers - BaB, Damage, etc.


At the end of the day, the Cleric is a (slightly defensive) spellcaster. That's where it shines.

Don't want to use DMM: Persist? Use DMM: Quicken! Even without stacking Nightsticks, how can you say no to spontaneously casting a Quickened Greater Dispel Magic after a normal Greater Dispel Magic?

Or maybe lay down a quick Harm - Inflict Moderate Wounds combo.

At the end of the day, DMM: Persist only helped solidify Clerics has having some of the best numbers in the game. Even with Incantatrix, Wizards just don't have the same chassis and buffs that Clerics do.

Without it? Just go Cloistered Cleric and call it a day.

[Divide by Zero]

Summoning/calling still breaks the game. Miracle still breaks the game. Wind Wall still invalidates archery as a combat style. Raise Dead is still useful.

The cleric has a lot more tricks than just being a better fighter than the fighter. And they can still do that without DMM abuse, just not quite as easily.

[heavyfuel]

As for power, it's got at least 2 potential encounter-enders. In Core.

At lower levels? I'm not doubting, I'm just curious to which they are.


Just don't try to be a Fighter.

Honestly. The whole DMM: Persist is partially due to "Let's take all of our phenomenal cosmic power and become the Party Fighter!"

For some reason, I never see DMM Persist and think of this, I always think of my personal alteration to the Twice Betrayer build. I'll admit to being biased though, as it's easily my favorite concept.


Summoning/calling still breaks the game. Miracle still breaks the game. Wind Wall still invalidates archery as a combat style. Raise Dead is still useful.

The cleric has a lot more tricks than just being a better fighter than the fighter. And they can still do that without DMM abuse, just not quite as easily.

Given the level cap I've imposed, Miracle is off the table, but you will get no arguments from me that it isn't a game changer.

Although I'd really like you to elaborate on how Summoning and Calling can break the game. I've seen people say that, but both of these things have always struck me as subpar, especially when they last for a too short amount of time to be used out of combat and calling spells usually have XP costs.

[Divide by Zero]

Although I'd really like you to elaborate on how Summoning and Calling can break the game. I've seen people say that, but both of these things have always struck me as subpar, especially when they last for a too short amount of time to be used out of combat and calling spells usually have XP costs.

Many summonable creatures have an assortment of spell-like abilities or other useful abilities. With the right choices, a summoning spell can do pretty much anything you need, or even several things, particularly out of combat.

Calling often has greater costs/effort, yes. But they typically last much longer, and the cost is small in comparison. And they can do everything summons can do and more.

And at low levels, when you can't do as much of that stuff, the melee summons are more CR appropriate and therefore better at making the fighter feel inadequate.

[ben-zayb]

At lower levels? I'm not doubting, I'm just curious to which they are.I forgot adding "at level 1". Cause Fear and Hide from Undead can trivialize encounters. Level 3 has Hold Person and the aforementioned Shatter. Those are at the top of my head, in core. It only gets worse by 5th level, with many encounter-ender 3rd level spells.

[heavyfuel]

I forgot adding "at level 1". Cause Fear and Hide from Undead can trivialize encounters. Level 3 has Hold Person and the aforementioned Shatter. Those are at the top of my head, in core. It only gets worse by 5th level, with many encounter-ender 3rd level spells.

Well, to be fair, except for Hide from Undead against unintelligent undead, these aren't so much "encounter enders" as much as "save or suck spells". Save or sucks can be found on almost any caster's list, it doesn't make them broken as they rely on luck. Encounter enders shouldn't rely on chance to work. Spells that I'd consider an encounter enders for example are Fly against earth bound enemies, or Greater Invisibility against enemies without detection.


Many summonable creatures have an assortment of spell-like abilities or other useful abilities. With the right choices, a summoning spell can do pretty much anything you need, or even several things, particularly out of combat.

Calling often has greater costs/effort, yes. But they typically last much longer, and the cost is small in comparison. And they can do everything summons can do and more.

And at low levels, when you can't do as much of that stuff, the melee summons are more CR appropriate and therefore better at making the fighter feel inadequate.

This makes sense. However how does a full caster justifies spending XP on spells? They say "never lose caster levels" because it's so important to get to that next spell level, but spending XP also makes you take longer to reach the next spell level.

[eggynack]

Well, to be fair, except for Hide from Undead against unintelligent undead, these aren't so much "encounter enders" as much as "save or suck spells". Save or sucks can be found on almost any caster's list, it doesn't make them broken as they rely on luck. Encounter enders shouldn't rely on chance to work. Spells that I'd consider an encounter enders for example are Fly against earth bound enemies, or Greater Invisibility against enemies without detection.
Those aren't first level spells. Once we enter fly world, that's where stuff like dispel magic, stone shape, and animate dead come online. Really powerful stuff right there.


This makes sense. However how does a full caster justifies spending XP on spells? They say "never lose caster levels" because it's so important to get to that next spell level, but spending XP also makes you take longer to reach the next spell level.
As the saying goes, XP is a river. If you fall behind a level, then the game's way of calculating XP means that you'll catch back up at a reasonable rate of speed, occasionally even propelling you ahead of allies if things time out right. Prestige classes offer no such promise, and LA only does with buyoff, and even then you're often stuck behind for longer than you would be with straight XP spending.

[ben-zayb]

Well, to be fair, except for Hide from Undead against unintelligent undead, these aren't so much "encounter enders" as much as "save or suck spells". Save or sucks can be found on almost any caster's list, it doesn't make them broken as they rely on luck. Encounter enders shouldn't rely on chance to work. Spells that I'd consider an encounter enders for example are Fly against earth bound enemies, or Greater Invisibility against enemies without detection.You asked for power, and tweaking your own words, "power can be found on almost any class". What Cleric offers are the said powers, joined with the massive inherent flexibility/versatility from other spells.

A cleric can effectively fill the niche of any non-T1 class, even at level 1. How many class has that going for them?

[Phelix-Mu]

So the basics:

- Turn/Rebuke Undead: In addition to the backbone of the DMM, turning can also power several other things that are all pretty decent toolboxes; namely, Divine Feats, Devotion Feats, and a few other less prominent things. And, of course, you can also use it to turn/rebuke undead. Or turn/rebuke [whatever], based on what domain or whatever granted you other Turn/Rebuke pools.

- Spellcasting: There is really no area of desire that isn't in some way filled by stuff on the cleric list. Utility? Check. Healing? The best. Buffs? Few indeed are not somewhere on the cleric list. AoE/BFC? Perhaps not as prolific as the Sor/Wiz list, but there are standouts even here, in what was, from a design standpoint, probably not supposed to be the shining height of cleric party roles. Minionmancy? Some of the best in the game.

- Domains: Aside from granted powers, which range from useless to really useful, there is pretty much a domain for every theme imaginable (and sometimes three or more for the same theme, by the time 3e was over). These domains can cherrypick from other lists, and occasionally deliver proceeds at equal or lower level than other classes have them. At higher op levels, things like domain staffs, domain draughts, and adding domains in various ways further expand access. And then there is the Spells domain, with the silliness that is anyspell. That right there establishes a pretty high benchmark for versatility.

So, definitely got three pretty big toolboxes there. Slam it on the rest of the chassis, which can tank well enough with just heavy armour, shields, and decent HD, and two good saves, and that is pretty boss.

In terms of power, the power of cleric is often less about the direct force you can exert and more about the forces that you can multiply through buffs, good use of calling, divinations, and the like. Preparedness is more than half the battle, and even without buffs that last all day, a cleric has the tools necessary to anticipate threats, scout terrain, pick favorable conditions, deliver debuffs, and buff allies and self in preparation. In short, with enough optimization, a cleric can trounce any CR appropriate encounter, and deliver defeats well above their grade. At higher levels, fights just won't happen, as clerics will have out-of-combat resources (a church, outsider allies, a deity, etc) that will help them to skip the small fries, hem in the big shots, and otherwise dissemble whatever oomph the campaign's major premise had behind it. The spells themselves are only half the package; over time, the cleric is spreading the influence of their god/dess through their actions and spellcasting, and all of that adds up.

And then there are methods to access all of the normal silliness that breaks the game. If druid can T1, then cleric can do the same, if with a slightly different flair.

[Sam K]

Keep in mind that if we're looking at low-mid level clerics with core only, they have to be compared to low-mid level core only classes. They're safely in T1 then.

Wizard has more power and flexibility after a few levels, assuming they avoid cat-related death until then. But at the lowest levels, while the wizard is a bunch of d4 in a dress, the cleric can be a decent tank even without persisting buffs. Druid wins out in sheer power because of animal companion, casting flexibility will depend a bit on what domains the cleric pick. Once wild shape comes online I'd say druid is ahead, but at that point you're worrying about who is the poorest millionaire - all the primar casters are capable of dominating the game by then. Cleric may be behind wizard and druid but that still puts them as #3 in core for power, with all the flexibility that defines a T1 class.

[Phelix-Mu]

It also bears repeating that the cleric knows all cleric spells of levels they can cast right off the bat. The wizard can gain access to all of them eventually, but there are hoops there. The PHB hands the keys to the kingdom directly to the cleric, no questions asked. While this is often thought of as versatility, it's also power, because the cleric needs no other resource to help them deal with [whatever] efficiently, as their connection to the divine is always around and pretty much inviolate (barring alignment shifts, which are generally easy to avoid via the same kind of thoughtful action that makes best use of the spell list).

[eggynack]

Keep in mind that if we're looking at low-mid level clerics with core only, they have to be compared to low-mid level core only classes. They're safely in T1 then.

Wizard has more power and flexibility after a few levels, assuming they avoid cat-related death until then. But at the lowest levels, while the wizard is a bunch of d4 in a dress, the cleric can be a decent tank even without persisting buffs. Druid wins out in sheer power because of animal companion, casting flexibility will depend a bit on what domains the cleric pick. Once wild shape comes online I'd say druid is ahead, but at that point you're worrying about who is the poorest millionaire - all the primar casters are capable of dominating the game by then. Cleric may be behind wizard and druid but that still puts them as #3 in core for power, with all the flexibility that defines a T1 class.
If I'm just doing a basic ballpark estimate, I'd probably put the cleric right between the wizard and druid at all levels. At early levels, druids are better than wizards because of the factors you note, and then around level 10 or so, the wizard's bigger list allows him to start dominating the druid in a way that generally increases until everything goes haywire at level 17.

The cleric, with its weaker chassis and probably eventually stronger casting than the druid (particularly with domains and double-particularly when you consider 6th, 7th, and 8th level spells) is just always between those two classes in power level. It's obviously not a perfect model, and fluctuates a bunch depending on various conditions, but I think it holds up decently.

[Phelix-Mu]

If I'm just doing a basic ballpark estimate, I'd probably put the cleric right between the wizard and druid at all levels. At early levels, druids are better than wizards because of the factors you note, and then around level 10 or so, the wizard's bigger list allows him to start dominating the druid in a way that generally increases until everything goes haywire at level 17.

The cleric, with its weaker chassis and probably eventually stronger casting than the druid (particularly with domains and double-particularly when you consider 6th, 7th, and 8th level spells) is just always between those two classes in power level. It's obviously not a perfect model, and fluctuates a bunch depending on various conditions, but I think it holds up decently.

Sound analysis. Particularly telling that the cleric has a "weaker chassis" than the druid, but still holds up well even without spellcasting when compared to pally and ranger. In a sense, I kind of think they missed the mark with the design of both core divine casters, giving one too much up front and shafting them in the cosmic power arena, and giving a decent base like cleric almost all of the broken that wizards have access to, but minus the supposed handicaps of wizards (most of which wizards sneer at, but the designers clearly put more stock in).

[Twilightwyrm]

Given the level cap I've imposed, Miracle is off the table, but you will get no arguments from me that it isn't a game changer.

Although I'd really like you to elaborate on how Summoning and Calling can break the game. I've seen people say that, but both of these things have always struck me as subpar, especially when they last for a too short amount of time to be used out of combat and calling spells usually have XP costs.

While I tend to be in your boat a bit more in terms of doubting the valid use of words like "ridiculous" and "phenomenal" to describes its spell list at lower levels, especially from personal experience with other PCs and Cohorts, I can actually elaborate on the early game power of summoning (though my personal experience comes more from the Druid, rather than the Cleric).
A Conjuration focused Cleric will likely have feats like Spell Focus (Conjuration), and the associated Augmented Summoning, at 1st-3rd level. Between Summon Monster I-II and Summon Undead I-II you should have summons ranging from heavy (relative to 1st-3rd level) single attackers to the likes of badgers and eagle that benefit from multiple attacks, at at +2 attack and damage due to high strength (so much more helpful than it sounds). Is it going to be a replacement beatstick? Hell no. But the extra creatures, especially by the time you can start summoning multiple creatures, means extra attacks, extra targets to absorb damage, extra flankers, and thus explodes the simple numbers advantage in your favor. And in D&D, greater numbers can be a huge advantage. Further, Clerics are one of the few classes that can get Summoning as a standard action, meaning Clerics get to start breaking the action economy before arcanists get their first celerity spell. As previously noted, as you get to mid levels, your summoned creatures start to have their own spell-like abilities they can use, meaning you effectively always have those available (though contrary to the general praise, they aren't actually all that helpful until higher level). The durations start out kind of crappy, but given how short combat tends to last in D&D, by 3rd level the monsters will be lasting quite long enough to do their damage, and by 4th-5th they will be tending to last all fight. Now, this isn't quite an "I win" button, but in many cases it can be. Let me give you a real game example of what I'm talking about:
The party is me (granted, a Druid, but not with any special druidy summoning stuff any cleric couldn't have access to by my level. Didn't even have an animal companion) and a (non-summoner) cleric. We enter a cave to confront the mad high priest of some Troglodytes. He has 2-3 guard trogs, and a giant crocodile. Against two of us. At this point, I decide I'm not a particular far of this set up, so I proceed to summon three augmented earth elemental the first round, four augmented eagles the next round, and three more elementals the third round, basically because I figured "I can". By the first round I had evened the numbers, by the second we had half again as many, and by the third the guards were all dying and the cleric and I were essentially able to sit back relax while my creatures shredded the high priest and his crocodile. We took maybe a handful of damage a piece, from the boss fight of the dungeon. Yes, on paper the creatures are rather weak, and the durations are rather paltry. In practice, a dedicated summoner can pull an "I win" scenario simply by virtue of being able to swarm their enemies faster than their minions can be killed. My experience with calling spells is considerably less, so I'll leave it to others to elaborate on the power of this area of conjuration, but I'd wager you could pull many different shenanigans with the ability to summon essentially whatever creature you like (within the stated guidelines) from the outer planes, and get it to work for you. Kind of like Leadership, but a spell.

[Curmudgeon]

A Cleric can give themselves higher BAB (and extra attacks based on that improved BAB) and +6 Strength starting from level 7, simply by casting Divine Power. That translates to +5 to attack (+2 extra BAB, +3 STR mod), +3 to damage, and one extra attack. The Wizard has Haste at level 5 (+1 to attack, one extra attack); of course, a Cleric with the Time domain has that spell also, and the two spells will stack.

[Phelix-Mu]

A Cleric can give themselves higher BAB (and extra attacks based on that improved BAB) and +6 Strength starting from level 7, simply by casting Divine Power. That translates to +5 to attack (+2 extra BAB, +3 STR mod), +3 to damage, and one extra attack. The Wizard has Haste at level 5 (+1 to attack, one extra attack); of course, a Cleric with the Time domain has that spell also, and the two spells will stack.

Or divine favor right off the bat, though the effect is hardly as spectacular. The buffs for cleric are solid, and, as I mentioned, are much more useful as force multipliers than as strictly increases to their personal might. Summon the monster and buff it to fight for you.

[Gwendol]

A level one cleric has access to a couple of really useful spells (in Core): protection from X (phenomenally good), sanctuary, obscuring mist, magic weapon (at that level the only way to harm certain enemies). Add domain spells to that.

They only get better with time, and the summoned monsters do add to the versatility what with guardinals (for example) becoming accessible at SMIII, thus offering added spellpower. In a sense, clerics are less likely to underperform than wizards due to the way they gain access to all spells (though wizards may have a higher optimization ceiling). DMM is not a factor here, it just adds icing to the cake.

[Chronos]

If you doubt the power of calling spells, consider: In an all-books environment, you can get access to literally every spell in the game via a single casting of Lesser Planar Ally. This is of course somewhat convoluted, and requires a lot of obscure material... but in core-only, you can accomplish nearly the same thing with a regular Planar Ally.

[Oko and Qailee]

Whoa, hold on. The cleric has decent power just in core, even without DMM.

A straight cleric, no feats into account and no DMM or PRC:

-Can Turn undead, results to a lot of auto-win encounters that might actually be a challenge normally
-Good utility. Need to go somewhere? Wind Walk. Talk to someone? Sending. Defend a stronghold? Glyphs. Want to be safe? Sanctuary at low levels makes you nearly untouchable due to low monster will saves. Healing. Is someone lying? Zone of Truth.
-TON's of numerical buffs. Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Prayer, Bears Endurance, Bulls Strenght, Eagles Splendor, magic circle against evil

At the end of the day, from just spells/chassis alone. The Cleric can:
-buff himself/party members to levels that are just not CR appropriate
-Can nuke semi reliably
-Can heal any ailment the party suffers. Sure, you might wanna tough out that mummy rot, ooor the cleric just prevents it.
-Solve nearly every problem in the game at most a day later.

Really, when you think about it, it's not less useful than the wizard. Sure, the wizard is flashier and more obvious about his power, but I wouldn't but the cleric behind, esp considering his chassis is better.

[Oko and Qailee]

I guess, just think about how many things the DM might want to do or solve in a typical campaign and then realize that clerics basically short cut this process similarly to wizards.

Diseases, Undead, poisons, attrition in general, info gathering, fight prep. All of those are one spell problems for a cleric.

[Threadnaught]

Using the srd only the Knowledge and Magic Domains let them pretend to be a Wizard, also they get Shapechange.

[Sam K]

If I'm just doing a basic ballpark estimate, I'd probably put the cleric right between the wizard and druid at all levels. At early levels, druids are better than wizards because of the factors you note, and then around level 10 or so, the wizard's bigger list allows him to start dominating the druid in a way that generally increases until everything goes haywire at level 17.

The cleric, with its weaker chassis and probably eventually stronger casting than the druid (particularly with domains and double-particularly when you consider 6th, 7th, and 8th level spells) is just always between those two classes in power level. It's obviously not a perfect model, and fluctuates a bunch depending on various conditions, but I think it holds up decently.

Pretty fair estimate. I was going with the lower levels (pre-5th level spells), where I think the druid has the edge the first levels (animal companion) and then get shapechange online at 6th. Higher levels, I agree the cleric win out assuming mid-optimized domains. The druids real game breaking spell is shapechange, and clerics can get that as a domain spell, unless my memory completely fails me.

[dextercorvia]

Remember T1 is about game breaking power and the ability to break the game with a different trick on a new day. Here are some helpful tips on how a caster Cleric can do this fairly easily from early on.


Clerics qualify for Versatile Spellcaster. Yes, this means spontaneous casting off the whole cleric list. Rainbow Warsnakes wait 11 levels for this.

Take the spontaneous domain ACF (or the domain spontaneity feat, or both).

Worship a Pantheon/cause. You can now get access to practically any domain with the Substitute Domain spell.

Collect extra domains. You have nothing to lose by PrCing out of Cleric, so dip Church Inquisitor, Divine Oracle, SotMI, Contemplative.... (Cf. #2)

Battlefield Control. Wall of Stone, Wall of Sand, and several fog spells are on the cleric list natively. Black Tentacles comes in at 3rd level in the Blackwater Domain.

Get a Mirror Mephit as a (lesser) Planar Ally, or a Nightmare. Nothing says breaking the game like (almost) free astral projections and unlimited wishes.