downtime and 9th level spells

[dreadwind80]

Or how do I abuse the fact I finally have 9th level spells and some downtime to use them?

My DM is rounding up our campaign, we are being allowed to jump from level 16 to 20. I'm a human wiz3/master specialist10, malconvoker6/archmage 1. Specialised in conjuration with banned necromancy, enchantment and evocation. No item creation feats. Since this character came in at 12th level barely had time to stop, so only had few days one time to add a few extra scrolls to spell book which were for party use.

So given actual free time, some money, and levelling up, what is the best use of my time? I have only played with 9th level spells once before years ago and that was a very different set up where we knew going in that there was never going to be downtime, as tight short campaign against the clock.

GM is playing 3.5 core books only, so splats allowed, but no Ebberon or Faerun.

Was planning on using archmage to get Gate as spell like to call on big summon for final dungeon, plus twice per day Gate to other plane is cool and in keeping with summoner theme.

Spells from levelling up will be mind blank, polymorph any object, summon monster IX, wish, gate, time stop, summon Golem, sphere of ultimate destruction.

Depending on how much XP over 20th DM allows, was think maybe one use of gate to summon solar or efreeti for some spell abuse. Other than that considered use of summon monsters to create lots of cash quick, mainly the Djinni ability to create permanent wine and vegetable matter and lantern archons to create continual flame.

What can I do as wizard with 9th level spells to significantly boost power or generate obscene wealth quickly? Any tricks or tips appreciated.

Any help appreciated - sorry for long post.

[sideswipe]

abuse and wealth? two words that will make people love this thread and hate it.

firstly you said core only and then said splatting was allowed, so im going to take a single splat from a different book and the rest is core.

cast shapechange and shapechange into a zodar (the splat) use your supernatural wish to wish for 25k of gold, or an obscenely good magic item (though you may have to pay the experience as it essentially counts as an instant craft i believe) and you dont have to lose experience to do this.
next turn after say 25k wish, you free action change back,
the round after you shapechange into a zodar. you wish for 25k
you change back.


at level 20 you have a cast time of 200 minutes, thats 2000 rounds, you can do this 1000 times before your duration ends.
with 3 hours and 20 minutes of doing this you get 1000x25000 gp = 25,000,000 gold, as a level 20 equivalent wizard you have 4 9th level spell slots that do not have to be used for conjuration, this means you get, for 13 hours and 20 mins each day you spend doing this for a daily gain of 100,000,000 gp
one hundred million!

this is just one way to make monies.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I think you mean the Zodar. Sarrukh is the pun-pun one.

[sideswipe]

I think you mean the Zodar. Sarrukh is the pun-pun one.

thank you, i have been looking through all sorts recently and my mind slipped.

[dreadwind80]

By core, I meant the complete books, terrain books, monster books such as Libris Mortis, and magic item compendium and spell compendium.

Specifically no 3rd party books, campaign books or 3.0.

I should also state that we agreed to ban disjunction, the celerity line of spells, and luminous armour from Book of exalted deeds.

[sideswipe]

By core, I meant the complete books, terrain books, monster books such as Libris Mortis, and magic item compendium and spell compendium.

Specifically no 3rd party books, campaign books or 3.0.

I should also state that we agreed to ban disjunction, the celerity line of spells, and luminous armour from Book of exalted deeds.

the fiend folio is a monster book and i believe its 3.5 not 3.0, it looks like it from the way everything is designed.

and banning luminous armour but not shapeshift? interesting call. unless your DM does not frequent these forums.

[dreadwind80]

Fiend folio is 3.0 sadly, as I did look into it as many options for alternative summons.

Polymorph is allowed, but we all are all aware of potential for abuse, hes generally fair and we have enough common sense not to use excessive cheese.

[Extra Anchovies]

PaO a gold piece into 2,000 cubic feet of gold. (same kingdom +5, same class +2, related +2, same or lower Int +2, puts us well over the Permanent duration bracket). The density of gold is 1206 lb/ft3. That means we have, with 2000 cubic feet: 2,412,000 pounds of gold. Times 50 to get the gold piece value, and...

Congratulations. You just created 120,600,000 gp worth of solid gold, and it only took you one standard action. Now do that a few more times. Be sure to sell it all quick, and never use gold again; once that baby hits the market, the price is gonna tank.

Alternately, use the potential economic impact of introducing hundreds of millions of gp into the economy to extort what you want from world governments.

[dreadwind80]

Polymorph any objects spell description specifically stops that use as you cannot create items with intrinsic value such as gold. So cannot create tones of gold out of air. I suspect I could convert equal value of goods, which could be useful to convert masses of gold into equal value gems, as not creating wealth. Interesting thought for ecomonic consequences.

[Daishain]

Conjuration Specialist?
One word: Genesis

If you can't find a way to use and abuse your own personal plane of existence where you are in effect GOD, you aren't trying.

[Extra Anchovies]

Polymorph any objects spell description specifically stops that use as you cannot create items with intrinsic value such as gold. So cannot create tones of gold out of air. I suspect I could convert equal value of goods, which could be useful to convert masses of gold into equal value gems, as not creating wealth. Interesting thought for ecomonic consequences.

Hm. The game seems to only treat precious metals as "having intrinsic value", even though pretty much everything does. Whatever...

Anyways. Take a look at the trade goods list in the PHB, pick whichever you like. Salt, maybe? Or just create fully-formed stone castles in good locations and sell those.

[sideswipe]

Conjuration Specialist?
One word: Genesis

If you can't find a way to use and abuse your own personal plane of existence where you are in effect GOD, you aren't trying.

personal favourite are trees that grow mithril instead of leaves. or something silly like that. its your existence.

[dreadwind80]

I like the salt option!

Caster level 19 for transmutation nets me 1900 cubic foot and google tells me 1 cubic foot of salt equals 79 lbs. So 150100 lbs at 5gp/lb equals 750500 GP!

Hmm, though I note that the trade goods section of PHB lists one lb of salt or silver at 5 gp, thus giving it equal value as trade good, might make it 'intrinsic' value and thus ineligible. There is flesh to salt spell though, maybe a chain of wall of stone, stone to flesh and flesh to salt?

Makes me wonder if using genesis to set up a plane of farming might be idea for retirement, make ideal farming plane, build/hire/make constructs to farm so they don't die of old age and speed up time, collect goods every so often of the high value trade goods like saffron.

[dreadwind80]

Drifted into economics - which is fun!

Checked rules, my combo would not work as the wall of stone/flesh is not a creature and thus not valid spell target.

I suppose I could buy an animal, polymorph any object it into a really big creature and then use flesh to salt?

Might technically be a little on the cruel side. Maybe get a friendly druid to reincarnate it.

[dreadwind80]

I like the salt option!

Caster level 19 for transmutation nets me 1900 cubic foot and google tells me 1 cubic foot of salt equals 79 lbs. So 150100 lbs at 5gp/lb equals 750500 GP!

Hmm, though I note that the trade goods section of PHB lists one lb of salt or silver at 5 gp, thus giving it equal value as trade good, might make it 'intrinsic' value and thus ineligible. There is flesh to salt spell though, maybe a chain of wall of stone, stone to flesh and flesh to salt?

Makes me wonder if using genesis to set up a plane of farming might be idea for retirement, make ideal farming plane, build/hire/make constructs to farm so they don't die of old age and speed up time, collect goods every so often of the high value trade goods like saffron.

[Dorian Gray]

I like the salt option!

Caster level 19 for transmutation nets me 1900 cubic foot and google tells me 1 cubic foot of salt equals 79 lbs. So 150100 lbs at 5gp/lb equals 750500 GP!

Hmm, though I note that the trade goods section of PHB lists one lb of salt or silver at 5 gp, thus giving it equal value as trade good, might make it 'intrinsic' value and thus ineligible. There is flesh to salt spell though, maybe a chain of wall of stone, stone to flesh and flesh to salt?

Makes me wonder if using genesis to set up a plane of farming might be idea for retirement, make ideal farming plane, build/hire/make constructs to farm so they don't die of old age and speed up time, collect goods every so often of the high value trade goods like saffron.

By that logic, though, you can't create anything in the PHB- a chunk of firewood even has a listed value. The good news, however, is that there is actually a spell called Wall of Salt. I believe it is found in the League of Legends splatbook.

[Red Fel]

Keep one very important thing in mind: Spell durations. The Wall of spells (Wall of Salt, Wall of Iron, etc.) have a duration of instantaneous, meaning that they cause a thing to spring into existence, and it is real and complete, forever. That's why these are considered an easy source of wealth cheese. (Note that Wall of Iron is in the PHB.)

Polymorph Any Object has, at best, a duration of permanent. That means that it lasts until dispelled. So, for example, if you PAO a bit of salt into a whole bunch of salt, a misfired Dispel Magic or an Antimagic Field will send the whole fortune up in smoke - and leave you with some very cross customers. By contrast, Wall of Salt is easy and withstands even the most overpowered Dispel CL checks.

But yes. A popular choice is to make a time-accelerated demiplane, fill it with constructs who will farm for you, sell the proceeds. Set up a fortified tower there where you can research spells, spending weeks to every day of real time. You can retreat to your demiplane at any point, and easily prepare for difficult encounters or ambushes.

[dreadwind80]

The horror of dispel magic never been so grim.

The implications if the salt used on your meal came from this method and you brave adventurer walk into a dispel magic - you might explode from the inside out if it was something really nasty, at the least a severe stomach ache...

Annoyed now finally doing the maths, that I have not used summon monster more at end of day if slots left.

Lantern Archons can cast continual flames as spell like to produce ever burning torches at 110 gp a go. edit: 55 gp 1/2 price for selling.

Djinni 1/day can produce 40 galleons of wine a go (quality not mentioned so i'm assuming not great so say same price as ale - 8 gp) and 20 cubic foot of vegetable matter as per minor creation that is permanent. Quick maths with cloves shows it would net about 405 gp.

Sure its not huge, but no cost to me and would have had quite the extra revenue stream for some scrolls, hell one casting of summon monster VII would earn me 826 gp, well minus a barrel to put the wine in.

[Red Fel]

Or, just keep it simple.

Resetting magic trap (or spell clock (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070312a), or what have you) of Wall of Iron (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfIron.htm). A CL 20 Wall of Iron gets you a sheet of iron 100 feet wide, 5 feet high, 1 inch thick.

Now, I don't know if you are allowed setting books. (Your list didn't mention them.) If you are, ECS gives us the Dedicated Wright, a construct that crafts items for you. Basically, it does item crafting while you're away doing whatever you like. With a Dedicated Wright, you could convert all of that iron into, say, masterwork weapons and armor. If a Dedicated Wright isn't available to you, Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) does the job, although it requires a more active investment of time on your part.

Basically, you now have a steady source of equipment. Build an army, corner the market, or simply arm your friends - you have discovered an easy method of achieving sustainable wealth. Because even if you flood the market with iron gear, rendering the stuff without value, you also have your own personal arsenal. So when you can no longer sell the stuff, you will be armed to the teeth and can take the money by force.

Enjoy your newfound wealth and terrifying power.

[Extra Anchovies]

By that logic, though, you can't create anything in the PHB- a chunk of firewood even has a listed value. The good news, however, is that there is actually a spell called Wall of Salt. I believe it is found in the League of Legends splatbook.

There's a League of Legends supplement? O.O

[Urpriest]

By core, I meant the complete books, terrain books, monster books such as Libris Mortis, and magic item compendium and spell compendium.

Specifically no 3rd party books, campaign books or 3.0.


Out of curiosity, where else on the forum have you seen Core used to mean that? I've seen lots of definitions of Core over the years (which is why nobody should ever use the term online without clarifying), but I don't think I've ever seen that one.

[dreadwind80]

ECS is out as I said in opening post unfortunately.

So far, I have found oddly I already have the means for wealth using summon monster 4 and better, just summoning lantern archons all day to cast continual flame as their spell like.

Using all my spell slots 4th and above, bar my couple of all day buffs and a G. teleport in case of encounter in town, my maths shows in excess of 90K gp, though i would need a market in which to dump over 1600 everburning torches.

That's before I start extending the higher level slots, to double the archons producing time...

[sleepyphoenixx]

Depending on how much XP over 20th DM allows, was think maybe one use of gate to summon solar or efreeti for some spell abuse. Other than that considered use of summon monsters to create lots of cash quick, mainly the Djinni ability to create permanent wine and vegetable matter and lantern archons to create continual flame.


That won't work because of the summoning rules:

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

The wine would work because Create Water is instantaneous but the rest won't.

[Phelix-Mu]

Also, Fiend Folio was given an official, first party update to 3.5, so any argument that the materials are 3.0 in light of that update are pretty weak. If the DM just wants to ban the book, that's another thing altogether, but the update exists, and sadly made no change to the zodar.

Though I would note that there is substantial RAW debate about whether you can spam the zodar thing. A DM would do well to make it otherwise, as it's totally nuts that a 9th level spell grants you practically unlimited access to other 9th level spells (particularly no-cost wish); in general, spells that grant more spells is a good thing to not allow.

[dreadwind80]

Would the gate/Solar trick not work because it is a calling effect not summoning effect?

I did not realise that spell ended even if permanent, that's odd, makes eberron a lot more expensive, as i always assumed that was how all the ever burning torches were made.

Seems flesh to salt and buy some cows is the way to go.

[Daishain]

Would the gate/Solar trick not work because it is a calling effect not summoning effect?

I did not realise that spell ended even if permanent, that's odd, makes eberron a lot more expensive, as i always assumed that was how all the ever burning torches were made.

Seems flesh to salt and buy some cows is the way to go.

Why not just Wall of Salt? Just cast, and bam, you've got a bunch of salt. No need to kill off livestock making it. Its even a lower level spell.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Calling effects work just fine.

[dreadwind80]

Checks spell, wow you are right, I kinda of assumed it was rounds per level, as lower level effect.

Need a means to chisel it out of wall it merges into, my minons can do that, now maths for how much salt that wall makes.

The answer is obscene amounts, with my caster level of 22.

The wall is 22 inches thick, 110 foot long and 5 foot high. For ease of maths, done calulations as if 12 inches thick so have cubic feet, then use 5/6 of that figure for the other 10 inches remaining.

So for each caster level we have 25 cubic foot of salt wall. I'm knocking off 5 foot at each end to allow for the mess of seperating from wall it merged into.

So 20 times 25 equals 500
1 cubic foot contains 79 lbs of salt says google
500 times 79 equals 39500 pounds of salt at 5 gp a pound equals 197500 gp

but lest not forget we have another 10 inches of wall, so 5/6 of that is 164580 roughly

for a total of 362080 gp

Damn.

[Phelix-Mu]

Checks spell, wow you are right, I kinda of assumed it was rounds per level, as lower level effect.

Need a means to chisel it out of wall it merges into, my minons can do that, now maths for how much salt that wall makes.

The answer is obscene amounts, with my caster level of 22.

The wall is 22 inches thick, 110 foot long and 5 foot high. For ease of maths, done calulations as if 12 inches thick so have cubic feet, then use 5/6 of that figure for the other 10 inches remaining.

So for each caster level we have 25 cubic foot of salt wall. I'm knocking off 5 foot at each end to allow for the mess of seperating from wall it merged into.

So 20 times 25 equals 500
1 cubic foot contains 79 lbs of salt says google
500 times 79 equals 39500 pounds of salt at 5 gp a pound equals 197500 gp

but lest not forget we have another 10 inches of wall, so 5/6 of that is 164580 roughly

for a total of 362080 gp

Damn.

I honestly don't know how they designed wall spells that made large amounts of valuable stuff that was totally real from absolutely nothing and didn't think "hey, someone could take all that [iron/salt/stone] and sell it." By rinsing and repeating the wall of salt trick multiple every day, wizards can quickly render an entire economy irrelevant, as they will be able to buy everyone nice houses, cure diseases, remove troublesome monsters via carpet-bombing, and generally put real-world scale billionaires to shame.

More realistically, salt won't be worth anything once it becomes that common, so the wizard will produce something with almost no value in record time. Sadly, RAW doesn't...

Wait a second. Does the RAW ever state that prices are static? Cause, if not, then this probably falls under the bit about things not covered in the rules function as they do in the real world.

WHICH MEANS THAT ECONOMICS COULD BE RAW.

zomg

*head exploding*

[dreadwind80]

I like economics appearing in game, adds a little.

Still the evil side of me thinks of the tactical use of this besides economic warfare.

Literal warfare, want to salt the land of your enemies, we brought the salt.

Or dumping this into a lake, or river to ruin water supplies and the farms around. Sure a Cantrip can purify water, but there's no effect to dispel, so you will have to deal with every drop.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I like economics appearing in game, adds a little.

Still the evil side of me thinks of the tactical use of this besides economic warfare.

Literal warfare, want to salt the land of your enemies, we brought the salt.

Or dumping this into a lake, or river to ruin water supplies and the farms around. Sure a Cantrip can purify water, but there's no effect to dispel, so you will have to deal with every drop.

You'll also get every druid on the continent pissed at you, which is usually not a good thing. Especially if you're not a loner wizard but represent a city or other fragile (and to a high level caster pretty much everything is fragile) organization. D&D has a bunch of events in its various histories that show what happens when people resort to large-scale magical warfare. It's not pretty.
Could make for an interesting epic campaign though.

[dreadwind80]

The option is good. Might actually have been useful early on in the campaign, as the army of serpant men advancing was unstoppable, we helped evacuate a city for a unified counter attack later. Salting the earth behind us to sap the army advance would have been a nice option, even if we didn't do it.

[dreadwind80]

This is horrible abuse of rules, but the saving grace is that this item is consumed.
Salt is actually used and can be destroyed under practical terms by water.

so unlike stone or iron its not around for practically ever filling up economy.

Thats what I tell myself, plus if using this trick I have acess to gate, and can spread this around a little so not destroying nations in one shopping trip - I hope.

[Extra Anchovies]

Thats what I tell myself, plus if using this trick I have acess to gate, and can spread this around a little so not destroying nations in one shopping trip - I hope.

Mhm.

There are an infinite number of layers in the Abyss in the standard D&D cosmology
∴ there is an infinite number of demons

There is an infinite number of demons
∴ there is a non-zero chance that at least one demon wants to buy salt

There is a non-zero chance of demons wanting to buy salt
&
There is an infinite number of demons
∴ there is an infinite number of demons who want to buy salt

Infinite demand = set your prices as high as you want, you'll find a buyer. This is very similar to how there is an infinite number of Lawful Good Succubi due to the abyss's infinite layers. They really should've just capped the layers at 666.

[dreadwind80]

Demons/devils don't eat if I I recall - so not so much demand for the diet and curing from salt, still useful as industrial product.

Still how much does gold weigh?

As no SRD access as blocked in work :(, salt could be useful as trade good to carry with that pesky can only teleport at will with 50 lbs.

[Extra Anchovies]

Demons/devils don't eat if I I recall - so not so much demand for the diet and curing from salt, still useful as industrial product.

Still how much does gold weigh?

As no SRD access as blocked in work :(, salt could be useful as trade good to carry with that pesky can only teleport at will with 50 lbs.

Gold is 1 lb per 50 gp. Also, demons might have other needs for salt - maybe they're torturing damned souls by rubbing it into wounds? :smallamused:

[Darrin]

So 20 times 25 equals 500
1 cubic foot contains 79 lbs of salt says google
500 times 79 equals 39500 pounds of salt at 5 gp a pound equals 197500 gp


ASTM D 632 says the bulk density of dry rock salt is 72 lbs/ft^3. Actually, depending on moisture content, it'll be somewhere between 72 and 80 lbs/ft^3, so 79 isn't too far off. By my calculations, a 7th level casting should create 36,720 GP. A wand of wall of salt costs 21,000 GP but produces 1,836,000 GP of salt.

This post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14925473&postcount=26) covers some of the more common "make money fast" tricks.

SMVII -> Djinn's major creation + Black Lotus Extract is probably gets the most bang for your buck in core (86 million GP of poison created per casting), but is much more likely to make DMs blubber about market saturation or supply/demand curves than, say, saffron. I've had some difficulty trying to come up with a decent number for the bulk density of saffron, however.

[prufock]

Probability doesn't quite work this way when dealing with infinity. There are quite a few gaps in this reasoning.


There are an infinite number of layers in the Abyss in the standard D&D cosmology
∴ there is an infinite number of demons
No. There is a nonzero chance of any finite number of demons. Some layers of the abyss could contain 0 demons. So, for instance, there could be 1 layer with 1 demon and all other layers empty to infinity.


There is an infinite number of demons
∴ there is a non-zero chance that at least one demon wants to buy salt
This part is true, but there is also a non-zero chance that no demon wants to buy salt.


There is a non-zero chance of demons wanting to buy salt
&
There is an infinite number of demons
∴ there is an infinite number of demons who want to buy salt
Even if the two premises are true, again you could have a single demon willing to buy salt, and the rest of them unwilling.


Infinite demand = set your prices as high as you want, you'll find a buyer. This is very similar to how there is an infinite number of Lawful Good Succubi due to the abyss's infinite layers. They really should've just capped the layers at 666.
So no, there isn't necessarily infinite demand. There is a nonzero probability of each possible finite demand.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: "Infinity is weird."

[dreadwind80]

Rubbing salt into the wounds... thats gonna need a lot of salt for the infinite abyss :)

I liked the acid trick assuming water into acid is an instaneous spell.

The black lotus does not work - as we found earlier, summon monster spells disappear at end of summon explictly, so even if permanent duration, which ends it sadely.

Also subject to dispel magic and anti magic. though drug dealer on the fly with SMVII could be an interesting path

"Hey need a hit of ....,", bamf, quick fix and the effect the drug has would apply as its an effect. Rather evil though.