Looking for adverage Stat and bonus ranges to aim for...Need advice

[wolfstone]

Okay, I'm trying to wrap my head around what numbers qualify as good numbers to shoot for in terms of PC defenses and + attack bonuses (as well as damage).

Does anyone have a list or know where I can look to see what kinds of numbers I should aim for in each tier of play as far as what is considered a good number?

For example, a Lv. 30 character can have a base max (not including accurate implements, class attack bonuses, etc.) of +36 atk and with feats and items, defense stats of around 42 to 45.

[GPuzzle]

It does depend. If I'm not mistaken, monster AC and NADs are at level+14 and level+12 respectively, while player AC and NADs ends up at level+16 and level+14 respectively, bumping up by 2 (at least) if you're a Defender. Monsters have a hit bonus of level+8 to hit. With a few calculations, what you should be targeting is somewhere between level+8 or level+10 bonus to hit, add or remove 1. In fact, I think that the few high examples of "I basically hit everytime" are OAs made by Defenders focused on those. The Leader should throw a few bonuses around, so you'd have at least a +2 to hit at all times if you are not the Leader. OTOH, he's the one that needs to be optimized to hit the most, because otherwise their allies aren't gonna do anything. Unless someone can get a debuff.

[Kurald Galain]

Benchmark numbers are,


To hit vs AC: level +6
To hit vs fort/ref/will: level +4
Armor class: level +15 (if you want to be more specific, try +16 for defenders, +14 for others; ranged characters can get away with a bit less)
Fort/ref/will: level +12, although most characters will have one "weak" defense that's four or more points lower
Average at-will damage for a striker: 20 (mid-heroic), 40 (mid-paragon), 60 (epic)


These are baseline numbers; if you optimize you can (obviously) get substantially higher than that, but with these numbers you'll be fine.

Some examples from my characters in practice,

12th level fighter: +19 to hit, deals 1d10+12 damage, and gets AC 30, fort 27, ref 23, will 23.
13th level blaster wizard: +17 to hit, deals 1d6+22 damage, and gets AC 25, fort 23, ref 24, will 23; and will take Improved Defense and a +3 cloak by level 14 since he's somewhat behind on that.
10th level rogue: +18 to hit, 1d4+2d6+16 damage, AC 25, fort 21, ref 26, will 18.
13th level warlock: +18 to hit, deals 3d6+9 damage, and gets AC 25, fort 26, ref 26, will 29.

[Tegu8788]

I've got a link in my signature, for players that are new to 4e. At the bottom is a long list of number guides, that I crowdsourced because I had no clue.

[Sol]

I've got a link in my signature, for players that are new to 4e. At the bottom is a long list of number guides, that I crowdsourced because I had no clue.

In general, focusing too much on your defenses as a non-defender is less productive than either focusing on offense to kill things faster, or on tactics to get targeted less frequently. The major exception is that having WILL as your weak defense is pretty scary, because its almost the only source of the worst status effects (stunned, dominated, dazed), and because its superior defense feat helps you mitigate those status effects. So, if it's at all possible to get the requisite 15 in WIS or CHA by paragon, it's definitely recommended.

Other than that, though, as long as you're wearing the correct armor category for your stats (don't wear light unless you have a primary or secondary stat to AC), you should be fine.

For attacks, as long as you take expertise, do whatever you can to gain CA, keep your weapon/implement current, and start with a post-racial 18 in your attack stat, you're doing fine, even though the numbers that results in will vary by class. If you go lower than that in any regard, consider making up the difference by taking a +3 weapon or an accurate implement, or any of the dozens of other ways to eke out a +1. Consider doing those things anyway, as accuracy is the most efficient method of improving your damage, as well.

[masteraleph]

One more addition- the other "benchmark" for a striker is to have a nova (at least an Action Point Encounter nova). Meaning that you can, with the use of Encounter Powers and Action Points, down a standard in one turn. Obviously, the real preference is to do this without an action point or to have ways to get extra action points, but with one is more or less the baseline.

Other classes can have novas too- a controller might be able (especially at high levels) to mostly knock a few enemies out of action for a turn or two with various conditions, a defender might be able to make an enemy or two impotent for a while, a leader might be able to grant large bonuses to hit or extra attacks. But that's all much harder to quantify than the striker nova.

[Yakk]

Another approach is to NORMALIZE your attack, defences and damage.

Normalized attack values are your attack bonus minus your level.

Normalized defences are again minus your level.

Normalized damage, you divide by (level+3).

You want +6 vs AC, +4 vs non-AC normalized attack rolls.

As a defender, you want 16-20 normalized AC. As a non-defender, 12-16 normalized AC.

If your non-AC defences are 10-14 they are good. Scores 10 or lower are easy to hit.

Normalized damage-wise:
32: Kill a solo
16: Bloody a solo, kill an elite
8: Kill a normal, bloody an elite, seriously hurt a solo.
4: bloody a normal, hurt an elite, scratch a solo.
2: hurt a normal, scratch an elite.
1: scratch a normal.

You should add up the damage of all your attacks over a typical round (as one big hit is the same as two smaller hits).

Assuming you hit baseline accuracy, we get:
13: 1-round striker (kills a foe/round on average)
7: 2-round striker
5: 3-round striker
4: 4-round striker
3: 5-round striker
2: 7-round striker
1.5: 9-round striker
1: 13-round striker

If you are under a 4-round striker, you aren't a striker.

If you are over a 2-round striker, you are probably optimized to the point that you may be breaking the game.

So your target number is 4-8 normalized damage per round of hits as a striker, 3-5 for a non-striker who wants to be good at dropping stuff, and 1-3 for someone who really isn't there to deal damage (like a healer or controller).

[wolfstone]

Another approach is to NORMALIZE your attack, defences and damage.

Normalized attack values are your attack bonus minus your level.

Normalized defences are again minus your level.

Normalized damage, you divide by (level+3).

You want +6 vs AC, +4 vs non-AC normalized attack rolls.

As a defender, you want 16-20 normalized AC. As a non-defender, 12-16 normalized AC.

If your non-AC defences are 10-14 they are good. Scores 10 or lower are easy to hit.

Normalized damage-wise:
32: Kill a solo
16: Bloody a solo, kill an elite
8: Kill a normal, bloody an elite, seriously hurt a solo.
4: bloody a normal, hurt an elite, scratch a solo.
2: hurt a normal, scratch an elite.
1: scratch a normal.

You should add up the damage of all your attacks over a typical round (as one big hit is the same as two smaller hits).

Assuming you hit baseline accuracy, we get:
13: 1-round striker (kills a foe/round on average)
7: 2-round striker
5: 3-round striker
4: 4-round striker
3: 5-round striker
2: 7-round striker
1.5: 9-round striker
1: 13-round striker

If you are under a 4-round striker, you aren't a striker.

If you are over a 2-round striker, you are probably optimized to the point that you may be breaking the game.

So your target number is 4-8 normalized damage per round of hits as a striker, 3-5 for a non-striker who wants to be good at dropping stuff, and 1-3 for someone who really isn't there to deal damage (like a healer or controller).


Super Bimbo: "Not my one weakness! Not Math!!!"

So would +36 Atk be good vs. Reflex, Will and Fortitude for a Lv. 30 implement user? I toyed around with an Invoker who focuses on Psychic, Thunder and Dominating spells.

[Dimers]

So would +36 Atk be good vs. Reflex, Will and Fortitude for a Lv. 30 implement user?

Yup. That would hit a level 30 enemy 75% of the time, even without combat advantage or any benefits from your team. You'd have even odds of hitting a level 35 enemy without any help -- or, at least, a person with normal dice luck would have that 50% chance. :smallwink:

[wolfstone]

or, at least, a person with normal dice luck would have that 50% chance. :smallwink:

Yeah. :P Why do dice hate me? :(

[Kurald Galain]

So would +36 Atk be good vs. Reflex, Will and Fortitude for a Lv. 30 implement user?

Dude, we just said that :smallbiggrin:

I wrote that attacks vs f/r/w should be at least level + 4; Yakk wrote that attacks vs f/r/w minus level should be at least 4 (which is the same, of course). You're at +6, so you're good. Math!

[wolfstone]

Dude, we just said that :smallbiggrin:

I wrote that attacks vs f/r/w should be at least level + 4; Yakk wrote that attacks vs f/r/w minus level should be at least 4 (which is the same, of course). You're at +6, so you're good. Math!

Sorry, I don't really understand the terminology all that well. So when you say level + 4, you mean the character level, with would translate as a Level 30 pc with +34 atk bonus as Level + 4? Just wanting to make sure I understand the concept clearly.

[Kurald Galain]

Sorry, I don't really understand the terminology all that well. So when you say level + 4, you mean the character level, with would translate as a Level 30 pc with +34 atk bonus as Level + 4? Just wanting to make sure I understand the concept clearly.

No worries. Yes, that's what I meant. If you're level 30, you're expected to have a +34 to hit (or +36 vs AC), have a 45 armor class, and 42 f/r/w (although most characters will have one "weak" defense that's four or more points lower), and do at least 60 points of average damage per round (if a striker). If you're above those benchmarks, good. :smallcool: