Speed property on ammunition?

[gadren]

I could not find this answer anywhere.
If you have a single +1 Arrow of Speed, do you get an extra attack after you fire it, or do you need at least two arrows of Speed to get the extra attack?

[Segev]

The extra attack would be with the Speed arrow. So you'd use a "normal" arrow of some sort, then attack with the Speed arrow, then proceed to any other iteratives you might have.

[gadren]

The extra attack would be with the Speed arrow. So you'd use a "normal" arrow of some sort, then attack with the Speed arrow, then proceed to any other iteratives you might have.

Thanks. So basically a Speed arrow is a one time extra attack for 640 gp.

[holywhippet]

I'm not sure that is right. The description says:

When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

I'd say that if you use a speed arrow as one of your attacks in a full attack action you get one more attack from your bow that round since the speed enchantment is being applied to the bow for that shot. The extra shot wouldn't need to be with a speed arrow.

Also note if the speed arrow misses there is a 50% chance of it staying intact.

Finally I should note it's a poor choice for an enchantment if you are allowed to use the splitting enchantment from Champions of Ruin.

[gadren]

Finally I should note it's a poor choice for an enchantment if you are allowed to use the splitting enchantment from Champions of Ruin.

That depends if the DM rules that splitting applies to precision damage or not, and how much precision damage the archer does. I currently play a rogue who adds her dex mod and her level to all sneak attacks. She typically gets haste from a spell, but if that not available I figure it'd be nice to have a handful of speed arrows on hand for when I really need it.

[holywhippet]

You mean like sneak attack damage? In theory every arrow is rolled separately for splitting so you'd only get SA damage whenever that particular arrow/split rolled and confirmed a crit.

[gadren]

You mean like sneak attack damage?
Yes, like I said she adds her dex mod and level as damage bonuses to every sneak attack.


In theory every arrow is rolled separately for splitting so you'd only get SA damage whenever that particular arrow/split rolled and confirmed a crit.
I'm not sure how crits factored into this. I think you might be a bit confused.

[holywhippet]

Ah, sorry. I'm pretty sure you'd apply SA damage to all arrows, split or otherwise, since all have independent to hit rolls.

[gadren]

Ah, sorry. I'm pretty sure you'd apply SA damage to all arrows, split or otherwise, since all have independent to hit rolls.

Yeah, that's one side of the argument (which is how I would rule), but many feel that the split counts as a "volley" as per the rules printed in the Complete Arcane and Rules Compendium, and thus negates SA.

[Curmudgeon]

When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it.
I'd say that if you use a speed arrow as one of your attacks in a full attack action you get one more attack from your bow that round since the speed enchantment is being applied to the bow for that shot.
That doesn't match the property description. You're not wielding the speed arrow after you fire it, and you can only get an extra attack with it (not the bow which had previously shot it).

Basically, speed on an arrow does nothing unless the arrow

isn't destroyed on impact; and
returns to you before the end of the full attack action.

[gadren]

And so another RAW debate begins.

[Segev]

You're not wielding the speed arrow after you fire it, and you can only get an extra attack with it (not the bow which had previously shot it).I agree with you so far.


Basically, speed on an arrow does nothing unless the arrow

isn't destroyed on impact; and
returns to you before the end of the full attack action.


But not here. As long as the extra attack you make is with the speed arrow, you get the extra attack.


When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it.

That's pretty cut-and-dried. If you are making a full attack action, you may make one extra attack with a speed weapon you are wielding. So you make a full attack, and pull out a speed arrow (making you wield it). This grants you one extra attack with that speed arrow. Which is the attack you're making right now. So you make all your normal attacks with other arrows, and the one extra with the speed arrow.

[Curmudgeon]

If you are making a full attack action, you may make one extra attack with a speed weapon you are wielding. So you make a full attack, and pull out a speed arrow (making you wield it). This grants you one extra attack with that speed arrow. Which is the attack you're making right now. So you make all your normal attacks with other arrows, and the one extra with the speed arrow.
The rules don't permit that order of operation unless your BAB is +5 or less.
Speed

When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If the character has BAB of at least +6, this rule applies — regardless of whether any extra attacks are from that BAB. Consequently, the speed arrow must be shot in order of decreasing AB; i.e., at the beginning of the full attack.

So I concede your point, but only if the wielder has BAB of +5 or less.

[Segev]

The rules don't permit that order of operation unless your BAB is +5 or less. If the character has BAB of at least +6, this rule applies — regardless of whether any extra attacks are from that BAB. Consequently, the speed arrow must be shot in order of decreasing AB; i.e., at the beginning of the full attack.

So I concede your point, but only if the wielder has BAB of +5 or less.

Let us examine the case of a Speed bow, first, just to make sure we agree on what happens there. I will then illustrate why this order of operations is not an issue.

If you are using a normal bow, and have a +6 BAB, your full attack would use BAB of +6 for the first attack, and +1 for the second. I do not think there is any argument here; please let me know if I am wrong.

If you are using a Speed bow, making a full attack grants you an extra attack at your full BAB (in this case, a +6). You thus make an attack at +6, an extra attack at +6, and an attack at +1. Alternatively, you could make an extra attack at +6, an attack at +6, and an attack at +1. Regardless, your first two attacks in the round are at +6. You have made them in descending order of BAB value, and you can choose which is your "extra" attack.

When using a Speed arrow, this remains the case. Whether you use it on your first or second attack, that is your "extra" attack for wielding a Speed weapon while making a full attack. The order of operations doesn't interfere, as you're still making a +6/+6/+1 iterative routine. You don't violate the rule of what order you do it in.

So, the two options for order are:
You make a full attack. You draw a normal arrow first, and make an attack at +6. You draw the Speed arrow next. You are now wielding a Speed weapon while making a full attack. This grants you an extra attack at +6, which you now make. Finally, you draw a normal arrow to make your last regular attack at +1.
You make a full attack. You draw a Speed arrow first. You are now making a full attack with a Speed weapon while making a full attack, entitling you to an extra attack at your full BAB. You make it now. You draw a normal arrow next. You have made an extra attack at your full BAB, but not your first normal one, so you make that one. Then you finally draw a second normal arrow and make a second normal attack.

There is some room to argue that the last one doesn't work, if you choose to claim that "extra" things cannot come "first." But no matter what, the first version works.

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, that first option should work. I wasn't discounting the idea, just your specific stated implementation implying the speed arrow would be used after all your normal attacks.
So you make all your normal attacks with other arrows, and the one extra with the speed arrow.

[Mr Adventurer]

If you haven't made ANY 'attacks with a Speed arrow' then you can't yet make an EXTRA 'attack with a Speed arrow'.

[Uncle Pine]

You're missing the point:

Speed
When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus.


You don't wield arrows unless you're using them as melee weapons (they work as daggers but with a -4 penalty to hit). You wield a bow (two if you're an arrow demon) and shoot arrows. Arrows are not weapons when shot, they're ammunitions.

Allow me to elaborate:

Projectile Weapons
Light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it’s a specially built composite shortbow, specially built composite longbow, or sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he or she uses a bow or a sling.

1) You need a free hand to wield something as a weapon. If you need two hands to use the bow you wield, which hand do you use to wield the arrow? None, because you're not wielding it as a weapon. It's an ammunition.

2) Weapons have stats like damage, crit range etc. Guess what are the stats of an arrow?

Arrows (20) 1 gp — — — — 3 lb. —

Arrows don't have weapons stats because they're not weapons. They're ammunitions. (Although they do have stats when used as melee improvised weapons).

3) Let's have a look at the weapon list on the SRD. We have reach weapons:

Reach Weapons
Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons.

Double weapons:

Double Weapons
Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaffs, and two-bladed swords are double weapons.

Thrown weapons:

Thrown Weapons
Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons.

Projectile weapons:

Projectile Weapons
Light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons.

And finally ammunitions. Which are a totally different thing:

Ammunition
Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings).

Again, arrows are weapons, not ammunitions.


Summing up, speed arrows are useless unless you plan to use them as improvised daggers. You don't get extra attacks while firing speed arrows because they're not weapons. They're ammunitiuons. Bows are weapons. Buy a speed bow if you want to fire extra arrows ammunitions.

[Segev]

Except that the weapon you are considered to be wielding when using ammo-using weapons is the combination of the weapon and its ammo. You are therefore wielding the speed arrow as part of your bow.

[Uncle Pine]

Except that the weapon you are considered to be wielding when using ammo-using weapons is the combination of the weapon and its ammo. You are therefore wielding the speed arrow as part of your bow.

Arrows are still ammunitions, not weapons. You only gain extra attacks with speed weapons.

[gadren]

Arrows are still ammunitions, not weapons. You only gain extra attacks with speed weapons.

Using that logic, you couldn't have flaming arrows either.

[Segev]

Sorry, Uncle Pine, but you're just wrong. Ammo can have weapon properties. You're wielding it when you load it into your ammo-launching device. Weapon properties work the way they say they do; there is no hidden nuance that makes them stop doing so if you squint at it hard enough. You might, possibly, be able to squint hard enough to make it seem that way, but if you then apply the same logic to other parts of the game, it makes them fall apart, too. Since the straightforward reading of the RAW works just fine and with no ambiguity, there is nothing to be gained from, and evidence against the design indicating that one should be, reading it that way.

[holywhippet]

Since there are other enchantment that specifically state they are restricted to a type of weapon and speed doesn't have that restriction I'd tend to assume it can work with ammunition somehow. It does seem an odd fit though.

[Uncle Pine]

Sorry, Uncle Pine, but you're just wrong. Ammo can have weapon properties. You're wielding it when you load it into your ammo-launching device. Weapon properties work the way they say they do; there is no hidden nuance that makes them stop doing so if you squint at it hard enough. You might, possibly, be able to squint hard enough to make it seem that way, but if you then apply the same logic to other parts of the game, it makes them fall apart, too. Since the straightforward reading of the RAW works just fine and with no ambiguity, there is nothing to be gained from, and evidence against the design indicating that one should be, reading it that way.

Hmm... Looks like I made a Huge bidoof. Even Colossal, maybe. :smalltongue:

I still think speed arrows don't work, but that's probably because I read "you can make an extra attack with the speed weapon" as "you do your normal attack and then you get an extra one". But it doesn't work like that: when a feat says you get an extra tentacle attack it doesn't mean that you need another tentacle to get it, you just get it. This would mean that you only need one speed arrow to get the extra attack: i.e. if you have +16 BAB you'll use 4 normal arrows and one speed arrow for the extra attack (you'd need to fire them in the proper order though, which is 1 normal, speed arrow, 3 normal or speed arrow, 4 normal).

Woah, I changed idea in the middle of a paragraph. It was really intense.

[bekeleven]

Using that logic, you couldn't have flaming arrows either.


Upon command, a flaming weapon is sheathed in fire. The fire does not harm the wielder. The effect remains until another command is given. A flaming weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the fire energy upon their ammunition.

Not only does "Flaming" not use the world "Wield," but it also requires a standard action to activate, so have fun doing that for... every... arrow.


When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.) Completely different phrasing. I don't see the issue.

[gadren]

Not only does "Flaming" not use the world "Wield," but it also requires a standard action to activate, so have fun doing that for... every... arrow. I actually can't argue the standard action activation part with you. Considering the number of adventures I've seen various energy arrows as loot in, I wonder how many other people realize they're near useless.


Completely different phrasing. I don't see the issue. Because the argument that Pine was making was that "ammunitions" aren't weapons and therefore can't benefit from properties that say they apply to weapon. (It should also be noted that the argument was soon after corrected by Pine.)

[Heliomance]

If the character has BAB of at least +6, this rule applies — regardless of whether any extra attacks are from that BAB. Consequently, the speed arrow must be shot in order of decreasing AB; i.e., at the beginning of the full attack.

So I concede your point, but only if the wielder has BAB of +5 or less.

I would dispute that. I think this order of operations is valid:

You have a BAB of +6. You fire one normal arrow at +6. You fire one normal arrow at +1. You have now made the multiple attacks that you have because your BAB is high enough, in order from highest to lowest bonus. You then nock a Speed arrow, and get an extra attack with it at +6.

...actually, by strict RAW, I think speed arrows are amazingly good. You make a full attack. You nock a Speed arrow. You get one extra attack with it. You nock a different Speed arrow. You get one extra attack with it. You nock a third Speed arrow. You get one extra attack with it. Repeat.

[bekeleven]

...actually, by strict RAW, I think speed arrows are amazingly good. You make a full attack. You nock a Speed arrow. You get one extra attack with it. You nock a different Speed arrow. You get one extra attack with it. You nock a third Speed arrow. You get one extra attack with it. Repeat.

If speed arrows were a thing that functioned, this is how they would function. RAW is that you can make extra attacks with as many speed weapons as you wield.

[Curmudgeon]

You have a BAB of +6. You fire one normal arrow at +6. You fire one normal arrow at +1. You have now made the multiple attacks that you have because your BAB is high enough, in order from highest to lowest bonus.

Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
While the descending AB rule is conditional on having multiple attacks due to BAB of 6+, it applies generally (i.e., all attacks using the full attack action). It isn't limited to iterative attacks.

[Heliomance]

While the descending AB rule is conditional on having multiple attacks due to BAB of 6+, it applies generally (i.e., all attacks using the full attack action). It isn't limited to iterative attacks.

I read that as follows:


If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks [granted by your base attack bonus] in order from highest bonus to lowest.

The second clause referring to the attacks mentioned in the first clause is a perfectly valid reading, one that seems eminently sensible to me.

[Curmudgeon]

The second clause referring to the attacks mentioned in the first clause is a perfectly valid reading, one that seems eminently sensible to me.
It would be a sensible reading if the rule said those attacks. It doesn't, though.

[Heliomance]

It would be a sensible reading if the rule said those attacks. It doesn't, though.

It says the attacks, which can very easily be read as referring to the first clause, English not being a precise language. For your interpretation to be unambiguously correct, it would have to say something like "you must make all attacks you are entitled to in order", or, more concisely, "you must make all your attacks in order".

[Segev]

...actually, by strict RAW, I think speed arrows are amazingly good. You make a full attack. You nock a Speed arrow. You get one extra attack with it. You nock a different Speed arrow. You get one extra attack with it. You nock a third Speed arrow. You get one extra attack with it. Repeat.


If speed arrows were a thing that functioned, this is how they would function. RAW is that you can make extra attacks with as many speed weapons as you wield.
The RAW on Speed weapons state that they do not stack with each other nor with Haste nor other "similar" effects. Dual-wielding +1 daggers of speed with TWF and a +6 BAB does not get you 4 attacks at +4 and an attack at -1 (taking the -2 to hit from TWF into account and ignoring all other bonuses and penalties save BAB). It gets you 3 attacks at +4 and one at -1. The second dagger may as well not be a magic dagger at all wrt how it impacts your number of attacks.

Similarly, a pair of Speed arrows would still only permit you one extra attack (which must be made with one of them).

[dysprosium]

Maybe I'm missing the point here but

How does an arrow with the speed property attack twice when fired from a bow?

[Segev]

Maybe I'm missing the point here but

How does an arrow with the speed property attack twice when fired from a bow?

It doesn't.

You draw a normal arrow. You fire it. You draw a speed arrow. You fire it as an extra attack. You draw additional arrows and fire them until you're out of iteratives.

You fired each arrow once.

[bekeleven]

The RAW on Speed weapons state that they do not stack with each other nor with Haste nor other "similar" effects. Dual-wielding +1 daggers of speed with TWF and a +6 BAB does not get you 4 attacks at +4 and an attack at -1 (taking the -2 to hit from TWF into account and ignoring all other bonuses and penalties save BAB). It gets you 3 attacks at +4 and one at -1. The second dagger may as well not be a magic dagger at all wrt how it impacts your number of attacks.

Similarly, a pair of Speed arrows would still only permit you one extra attack (which must be made with one of them).

There is only one case in D&D where this was tested, an according to latest errata (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/weapons.htm#quarterstaffofAlacrity):

Both ends of this +5 quarterstaff of speed have equal enhancement and special powers, meaning that it allows an additional attack with each end every round.

[Segev]

That's an epic weapon, and it contradicts this line from the basic speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#speed) property:
This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.

Therefore, I am inclined to think that this is a case of a specific rule (for a particular epic item) trumping the general rule (of speed not being cumulative with similar effects). I would definitely say that speed is similar to itself.

[dysprosium]

This is why I hate RAW arguments. Two people can read the same words and come to different conclusions.


It doesn't.

You draw a normal arrow. You fire it. You draw a speed arrow. You fire it as an extra attack. You draw additional arrows and fire them until you're out of iteratives.

You fired each arrow once.

That does not make any sense at all to me. Arrows are not wielded in the conventional sense--drawing is not wielding.

But then again that's poor WotC editing--it should have put that clause about the weapon effecting the ammunition.

I can see your argument but that is not how I would read it at my table, (nor has that been an issue at any table I have been a part of).