OOTS #425 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Blackdrop]

Awesome comic man. Elan and Belkar RULE!

[Atheist_Cleric]

Awwwwwwwwww, how cute.

Roy wil never hear the end of this....

[agentx42]

Anyone STILL think Roy's a jerk for "not" liking Elan??? Looks like he's an old softie after all...

[Aurorax]

Belkar is my hero. Love it how he always gets the last word (unless he's going up against a horse, or a spider, or a ....)

[J_Muller]

:elan:But I don't want to fight in the shade!

Nice.

Spartans, now that I think about it, would probably utterly destroy the goblins.

[WNxArrakis]

I'm loving the 300 reference. And the fact thay Roy would take the bullet... great!

[Erloas]

Wow, what timing I have. Nothing beats an early update.
I just saw 300 too so Elan's line was just that much better. (sure the line was around long before that, but one I probably wouldn't have remembered).

[SolkaTruesilver]

*snif*, when did the heroic arrow save isn't heroic anymore?

damn HP system ruins all the Theatric effect... I'm sure :elan: would agree

[Tornek the Unhygenic]

:haley: I have a Boyfriend. Hee Hee! Awesome comic Giant!

[Gopher]

Ha. As always a good comic. Someone's going to have to explain Belkar's line in panel one to me though. :)

[Amotis]

Poo, I thought we were gonna see the other members take down the Ti elementals.

[Nogard]

kinda killed the tension of the last few comics, but made me laugh so its all good ^_^

[Raistlin1040]

If I was Roy, I'd seriosly contemplate using Belkar as a shield. I mean, he'd be like a tower shield right? And Roy could use Elan's rapier to fight.

[Shisumo]

Ha. As always a good comic. Someone's going to have to explain Belkar's line in panel one to me though. :)

Belkar's Mark of Justice won't let him do lethal damage to living creatures within a city. He apparently let Roy do all the heavy lifting in dealing with their Titanium Elemental.

[Haruspex]

Dammit, do you people just sit here and press refresh until the thread comes up? I was lurking here for hours!

Nice comic, by the way.

[Jade_Tarem]

Looks like Roy suffers once again for Elan's love of theatrics.

[EvilElitest]

NO ROY WHY?!
In defence of Roy, he is right it is all numbers. Because he is a fighter, he will not need a healing potion and can just make do without. He also has highter AC and better armor. The damage taht would have been i potion on ELan is now maybe half that on Roy.
from,
EE

[5tephen]

YAY! More battle stuff!

Let's have some ACTION!

[Tawkis]

*sniff*
Roy is the man...

I mean how cool was that. We can pretend that Roy actually saved Elan's life though.
Man that brought a smile to my face.

On a side note, are we getting an education on the giants view of how to use PC's in warfare?

[Fishies]

Roy Likes Elan!!

[13_CBS]

Best. 300. Reference. EVER.

[Blood]

This one made me grin. Not bad, but I'm surprised it's finally the end of Elan's happy-go-lucky ignorance of Roy's secret liking of him.

...Or is it? :smallbiggrin:

[WarriorTribble]

Ack! If I was Roy I'd be annoyed enough to give Elan a smack on the lips.

[Professor Tanhauser]

Heh heh heh, now Belkar makes roy regret that MoJ by using it as an excuse to let him to the hard work. BooooYeah Blekar!

[Fus.Weapon 1337]

Hahahaha, brilliant.

[Golem]

As always, I think it's fairly obvious why Roy is the 'Leader' figure of the Order. He may not be the nicest dude, but he does care, no matter how he acts--he has felt guilty for leaving Elan hanging before, after all.

[Felius]

Well, Spartans would be just unfair. I mean, like 300 hundred of them can just mop down the both armies mopped together, inlcuding the Linear Guild, the Order of the Stick, the MitD, Redcloak, Xykon, and every single other character that we ever saw.

Also, in case he is wearing an adamantine armor, it is better for him to take the hit (although I'm pretty sure he doesn't)

Edit: Also, why Elan isn't using his bard song. It can mean some extra deaths at the goblinoid side.

[Captain "Fluffy"]

Absolutely hilarious. Nice refrence, also. Good job, Giant.

[BurntOfferings]

Belkar's Mark of Justice won't let him do lethal damage to living creatures within a city. He apparently let Roy do all the heavy lifting in dealing with their Titanium Elemental.
Yeah, and it looks like Durkon is miffed about it. I don't know what he expected Belkar to do. Elementals are living creatures, after all. Better for Belkar to wait for the undead horde attack. Stab undead!

[Orzel]

Haha Nice one.

All those arrows would have really hurt Elan. There's more than 20 in that panel and Elan's ac is probably does average

anyway

Roy and Elan sitting in a tree
J-U-M-P-I-N-G


Bards and Fighter don't share many 4-letter class skills.

[Nightfall]

Roy, you're such a softie! Admit you like having Elan around.:smallsmile: And don't give me any of that "taking one for the team" garbage!:smallbiggrin:

[elliott20]

*sniff* awwwwwww..... Roy cares!

[Rambi]

I got the Futurerama joke, and that guy hitting on Haley mid-battle gave me a chuckle.

[kpenguin]

Great comic.

BTW. for you "Spartans would kick the ASS of these guys", remember that generally, the Spartans were heavy armor, move in phalanx formation, dudes. Effective in their day, BUT VERY INEFECTIVE IN D&D. No, I haven't seen 300, but from a gaming standpoint, a bunch of competent medieval archers would have torn them apart. Then again, a bunch of well-trained longbowmen could have kicked the ass out of most soldiers, even musketmen, for a long time.

[asqwasqw]

I wonder what Haley would think about Roy liking Elan... (joke, don't take me seriously)

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

I knew that Roy loved Elan. :smallbiggrin:

That's not the first time Elan and Belkar make fun of Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html). But when they do it... it's priceless.

[Kesnit]

:elan: You like me! You liiiiike me!

Aww... How cute...

However, I thought :belkar: 's song in the last panel was a bit much. :elan: sees :roy: as a brother, not as a lover.

[Aimbot]

I'm seeing 300tomorrow. And I'm always a bit miffed that the previews spoil the best lines.

[vanyell]

thank you for the 300 reference

[Hobot]

I'm seeing 300tomorrow. And I'm always a bit miffed that the previews spoil the best lines.

That line was spoiled 2500 years ago :smallwink:

[Shott]

Haha, just saw 300 yesterday. I'm pleased to see the reference. Great comic, too.

[MReav]

Well in all fairness, Roy has a higher AC (he wears heavier armor), so he'd take less damage than Elan would.

[CGM3]

So Elan makes a successful Knowledge (history) check (or maybe it was bardic knowledge) and declaims the dramatically appropriate reference, but, typically, fails his Common Sense check and has to be saved from his folly by Roy.

As for the "numbers"...

As a fighter, Roy almost certainly has more HP than Elan the bard/dashing swordsman, so he's probably lost a smaller proportion than Elan would have. And he likely has a higher AC, so fewer arrows would hit him.

Or The Giant might be using the alternate system suggested in Unearthed Arcana, wherein a character's Constitution determines his Wound Points, and the "hit points" rolled up at each level are his Vitality Points. Damage is deducted from Vitality Points until they are all gone, then Wound Points are subtracted (and at 0 WP, the character must save Fort vs DC 15 or start dying by losing 1 WP per round unless he stabilizes w/ a successful Fort vs DC 10+rounds failed this save), except...

A critical hit always subtracts from Wound Points (they don't do extra damage, but the threat range of some weapons is increased), so a couple of good arrow crits could have dropped Roy right there! (With a highter chance of doing in Elan, assuming Roy has the better Con!)

[skinkatlarge]

Ack! If I was Roy I'd be annoyed enough to give Elan a smack on the lips.
That got a bigger laugh outta me than the strip, so, thanks. :smallsmile:

Not that the strip was bad - I was probably missing a few references, but I was wondering about Belkar vs. elementals myself (what was Roy thinking?), the look on Belkar's face in the second to last panel got a good snort outta me, and the two of them teasing Roy is always good.

I keep wondering why they haven't set Belkar loose past city limits yet; guess he'll be useless til the undead show up.

[Erloas]

Great comic.

BTW. for you "Spartans would kick the ASS of these guys", remember that generally, the Spartans were heavy armor, move in phalanx formation, dudes. Effective in their day, BUT VERY INEFECTIVE IN D&D. No, I haven't seen 300, but from a gaming standpoint, a bunch of competent medieval archers would have torn them apart. Then again, a bunch of well-trained longbowmen could have kicked the ass out of most soldiers, even musketmen, for a long time.

A big part of the phalanx formation was that they were able to quickly and efficiently cover themselves from arrows with their shields. To the point of very few gaps. If the shields were able to not be pierced would have a lot to do with what the shield were made out of and how strong the bows where. In the movie they had metal shields, bronze I think, I think that was fairly authentic but I'm not totally sure since I know some cultures used wooden shields for a long time and I'm not sure exactly how strong bronze is to penitration like that.
The only reason it wouldn't be effective in D&D is because D&D has no rules about formations or any sort of bonuses for fighting along side someone else. Its also not a combat system that is designed for big melees.

[Snake-Aes]

:elan: Roy liiiiiiiiiikes me!

Roy's a mushball lol

[Sturmjaeger]

Hm, what is that reference in the beginning about not knowing if elementals are living or not?

Funny comic nonetheless.

[Shular]

I'm not sure, but I think people may be over-reacting to Roy's "saving" of Elan. It's in Roy's nature to put himself at risk to protect his companions. I suspect he would have done the same for any friend/ally...maybe even Belkar. That's so ... Roy.

[Renegade Paladin]

Okay, so next time let Elan take as many arrows as he wants. Geeze, if he's going to be that dumb in a war zone, get him the heck off the wall...

[kpenguin]

A big part of the phalanx formation was that they were able to quickly and efficiently cover themselves from arrows with their shields. To the point of very few gaps. If the shields were able to not be pierced would have a lot to do with what the shield were made out of and how strong the bows where. In the movie they had metal shields, bronze I think, I think that was fairly authentic but I'm not totally sure since I know some cultures used wooden shields for a long time and I'm not sure exactly how strong bronze is to penitration like that.
The only reason it wouldn't be effective in D&D is because D&D has no rules about formations or any sort of bonuses for fighting along side someone else. Its also not a combat system that is designed for big melees.

True, but longbows were accurate and armor-piercing at long ranges. I bet a small unit of medieval longbowmen could wreak havok on a bunch of hoplites wearing bronze armor and carrying bronze shields. If it worked against medieval infantry, which used pike formation tactics to counter cavalry, than it'll probably work against hoplites. Also, you guys forget about magic and all that good stuff. Xykon could blast the hell out of Leonidas and co. No magic means no victory against high-level casters.

[elmizzt]

[Scrubbed]

[Chrismith]

Great comic (loved the Futurama reference), but is it likely that we'll see Roy & Co.'s battle with the Ti elemental in a bonus strip when the book comes out? I'm curious exactly how they took it down, and also why Durkon looks unhappy.

[Dumbledore lives]

But I don't want to fight in the shade. Priceless, cool comic.

[Solmage]

Congrats, this one was funny AND cute, and not the type of cute that makes you gag, but chuckle :)

[Felinoid]

Well in all fairness, Roy has a higher AC (he wears heavier armor), so he'd take less damage than Elan would.

Indeed. Also note that the three arrow hits are all in approximately the same location on Roy's body, implying that he had a fair bit of coverage at the end of the tackle when the arrows hit. Elan, standing up in full view, would probably have been a pincushion in comparison. Forget the healing potion, he'd need Durkon and some diamonds.

[StickMan]

Roy and Elan sitting in a tree...
Got to love it.

[WarDragon]

Hmmm.... I think Elan's line is on the wrong side of the fight. As far as I can tell from their flavor text, hobgoblins are the Spartans of D&D.

Oh, and nice comic. Poor Roy.... heh heh heh.

[Milandros]

Oddly enough, the movie "300" did not invent the Spartan name or people, nor th Battle of Thermopylae. The "fight them in the shade" line is not ripped from the movie, it's from the old Greek historian Herodotus from the 5th century BC (as opposed to 20th Century Fox :) )


Such were the proofs of valour given by the Lacedemonians and
Thespians; yet the Spartan Dienekes is said to have proved himself the
best man of all, the same who, as they report, uttered this saying
before they engaged battle with the Medes:--being informed by one of
the men of Trachis that when the Barbarians discharged their arrows
they obscured the light of the sun by the multitude of the arrows, so
great was the number of their host, he was not dismayed by this, but
making small account of the number of the Medes, he said that their
guest from Trachis brought them very good news, for if the Medes
obscured the light of the sun, the battle against them would be in the
shade and not in the sun.

[TigerHunter]

A little contrived, but Belkar and Elan picking on Roy is always a win.

[Moffo]

Great comic! Belkar is the ultimate rotten badass. Love him!!

[Elftist]

I was really interested to see how the Giant would work such an epic battle into the strip. It seemed almost impossible to portray this fight individual comic strips that can satisfy the sense of foreboding that has this comic has been building for so long now.

So far, I'm really pleased -- the jokes are funny, but we still get a sense of how momentous this war is. The arrows alone were enough to show that the battle is seriously on.

[geez3r]

Ah those high Cha characters always seem to grow on you...

[CockroachTeaParty]

:roy: Tonight, we dine in HELL!!!

:vaarsuvius: This is blasphemy. This is madness!

:belkar: Madness? THIS IS OOOOOOTSSS!!

[IloveHaley101]

:roy: & :elan:? Sorry, That's funny, but I can't picture it. :frown: I do love elan and belkar taunting roy though.

[TigerHunter]

Oh, and 300 reference for the win!

[Aerysil]

Ok, where did 5 o'clock shadow man come from... Oh wait, he was one of the released prisoners wasn't he.

[Jaguira]

This comic made my day... Er, night :smallbiggrin:

[Mr Teufel]

Belkar's just practising his Craft Disturbing Images feat. He'll bug Roy, even if it means making Elan happy.

[Peptuck]

All we need now is Hinjo kicking Xykon's emissary down a conveniently placed well. :D

[Tobimaro]

To think that Roy is the leader of these crazies. :smallbiggrin: In the middle of a war to boot. :smallsigh:

Such is the fate of Roy to be in the middle of a Belkar-Elan double team. All I can say is: Way to go, Rich.

[K'tai]

Roy saves Elan! Again! And both times Belkar teases him....

[Tariskat]

What is the Futurama reference? And I confess I thought of '300' when I read that too..

[mdvk1012]

Great comic, but I would have loved to see Belkar pawn off all the fighting on Roy while taking the glory of the kill for himself.


Indeed. Also note that the three arrow hits are all in approximately the same location on Roy's body, implying that he had a fair bit of coverage at the end of the tackle when the arrows hit. Elan, standing up in full view, would probably have been a pincushion in comparison. Forget the healing potion, he'd need Durkon and some diamonds.As mentioned several times already, as a fighter, Roy has significantly more HP then Elan. The damage of 3 arrows is considerably a smaller fraction of his total HP compared to the overall damage Elan would have taken.

I find it curiously funny though that the arrows hit Roy in the rearend (putting it lightly) and now he has to deal with the pain in the @$$ of Belkar teasing him.

[Andiamo]

What is the Futurama reference? And I confess I thought of '300' when I read that too..

A famous Bender quote: 'Bite my shiny metal ass!"

Quoted from the strip: "We kicked their shiny metal asses!"

I don't know if it is really supposed to be a Futurama reference, but funny nonetheless.

Although I did want to see the rest of the order beating up the elementals. But I suppose if Rich showed every little fight this battle would last hundreds of strips. Thousands, even.

[Swordguy]

The 300 reference was a thing of beauty.

And Hinjo's right. Busted fortifications are a high price to kill some summoned creatures.

Also, those are REALLY STRONG bows to fire arrows hard enough to stick in stone battlements (obvious in the last 2 panels).

[Axl_Rose]

LOL

I love the 300 reference

[Grady]

Haha, of cource Roy likes Elan (as a friend), he just doesn't show it often.

[kpenguin]

God damn it, it wasn't just some 300 reference. It was a reference to legendary historical battle that just happens to have a recent movie.

[Tariskat]

Andiamo:
oh.. ch... my bad. I've heard Bender say that fifty times. Shiny metal asses... heh heh.
thanks.

[Midnight Lurker]

LOL

I love the 300 reference

As a Frank Miller loather, I'm going to have to defy the crowd and say that came close to ruining the strip for me.

But if I remind myself of the quote's historical antecedents, it's not so bad. :)

[phoenixineohp]

Ooooo. Current. :P
I loved the 300 reference.

[Swordguy]

Well, Spartans would be just unfair. I mean, like 300 hundred of them can just mop down the both armies mopped together, inlcuding the Linear Guild, the Order of the Stick, the MitD, Redcloak, Xykon, and every single other character that we ever saw.

Also, in case he is wearing an adamantine armor, it is better for him to take the hit (although I'm pretty sure he doesn't)

Edit: Also, why Elan isn't using his bard song. It can mean some extra deaths at the goblinoid side.

I would HOPE that Thirty Thousand Spartans would kick the crap out of the assembled forces (AoE magic notwithstanding).

[Swordguy]

God damn it, it wasn't just some 300 reference. It was a reference to legendary historical battle that just happens to have a recent movie.

Yes, we know. But it's a neat coincidence that this dramatically approriate line happened to occur in the strip at roughly the same time as the movie.

BTW, you severely overestimate the power of the longbow. Read the RW Weapons and Armor thread over on the d20 forum. It's been gone over many times, and have many cited sources.

[silvadel]

Belkar needs to use craft disturbing often so he can get bonus exposition exp to counter his exp penalty from multi-classing :)

[Erloas]

True, but longbows were accurate and armor-piercing at long ranges. I bet a small unit of medieval longbowmen could wreak havok on a bunch of hoplites wearing bronze armor and carrying bronze shields. If it worked against medieval infantry, which used pike formation tactics to counter cavalry, than it'll probably work against hoplites. Also, you guys forget about magic and all that good stuff. Xykon could blast the hell out of Leonidas and co. No magic means no victory against high-level casters.

Longbows had varring degrees of success against some armor types, though I don't know how well the greek armor would fair against it. I know longbows did great damage in many battles, but from what I've read and seen most medieval european soldiers were not professional soldiers and didn't have great sets of armor or shields. I have no doubt a longbow would pierce through wood shields, I think it would have a much harder time against metal ones though (not sure how bronze would fair, since metal types have widely varrying resistances to certain types of impacts). If you can get very high coverage with the shields then the armor would be much more likely to stop the arrows that do manage to penetrate through the shields since they would loose a lot of energy going through them.
There is also a certain amount of balance in the D&D system between magic users and fighters (not the greatest, but some attempts are made) so just because someone doesn't have spells does not mean they aren't capable of defeating someone with spells. The spartans trained from a very early age and did all sorts of things that would, in D&D terms translate directly into levels, so your group of spartan warriors would not be like a group of level 1 hobgoblins. They would have enough HPs to take a few shots, they would have some saves. With thier shield formation they would also probably get a very decent bonus to any reflex types of saves from AE damage spells thrown at them.
While there are high level casters in Xykons army, there is still the very real threat of 1000s of hobgoblins and zombies and no matter what happens to the high level casters they still need to be taken care of and they would have be great for those situations. Sure they wouldn't be able to do everything, but they would have plenty of vital roles to do in a situation like this. Anyone that plays D&D knows no one character/class can do everything and you need to use what you can do well in the best way possible. Sending the spartans after high level casters wouldn't make sense but they would highly valuable in defeating hordes of hobgoblins and zombies and that is what they would be used for.

[Ezlo]

Hurrah for Mr. Stubble Guy From the Prison! You Rock! He should have a fan club! :smallwink:

[dakiwiboid]

That line was spoiled 2500 years ago :smallwink:

Yup, by a guy named Herodotus!

[DrowWolfrider]

Poor Poor Roy, This will probably haunt him for the rest of his life.
I have a boyfriend, hehehe.

[DocZoid]

Ah, the classic Futurama reference. I tip my bonnet to you, Good Sir Giant.

[Tach13]

Very funny, and I'm believing it was a Futurama reference. But I think it also dealt with the fact that D&D has no rules for pain. You function at 4 hit points just like you do at 40, or 80, or whatever. Pain isn't in any source book I know of.

[Garin]

Yup, by a guy named Herodotus!

Glad to see I'm not the only person who heard that before 300. I haven't seen it yet but I figured they would have had that line in there, it is my favorite historically-based quote, real or not.

[slayerx]

y'know... Roy could have save face with a simple explaination...
He could have simply pointed out that as fighter with heavier armor, he has a higher AC and thus there was less chance of the arrows doing damage by him jumping in the way... If the rolls for those arrows were too low, then they might have bounced off his armor, where as they would have still pierced Elan

actually... now that i think about it... considering how low level those hobgoblins are, shouldn't it be very difficult to damage Roy, such as needing to roll like a natural 20... i guess you could say Roy loss his Dex bonus when he took that line of action, a negative circumstance bonus, but still...

[WarriorTribble]

That got a bigger laugh outta me than the strip, so, thanks. :smallsmile:Your welcome! Glad I made a funny.
Belkar's just practising his Craft Disturbing Images feat. He'll bug Roy, even if it means making Elan happy.Heh, if that was a craft image I'd say all elementary school boys have that skill. :smallsmile:
He could have simply pointed out that as fighter with heavier armor, he has a higher AC and thus there was less chance of the arrows doing damage by him jumping in the way... If the rolls for those arrows were too low, then they might have bounced off his armor, where as they would have still pierced ElanI think not mentioning that just shows he wasn't thinking numbers, and shows he saved Elan cause he just loves the guy (in a platonic sense of course, not that there's anything wrong with the other way).

[Siberys]

That line was spoiled 2500 years ago :smallwink:

Exactly! What miffs me is that some people think this is a reference to a modern movie, when in turn that movie is based off of a really old story about a REAL battle!

Also, as I understood it, that battle occured at some sort of pass, where only a few men could stand abreast, which allowed the spartans to rotate through their better - trained soldiers while only fighting a certain number of enemies at once. Would that be correct?

EDIT


Oddly enough, the movie "300" did not invent the Spartan name or people, nor th Battle of Thermopylae. The "fight them in the shade" line is not ripped from the movie, it's from the old Greek historian Herodotus from the 5th century BC (as opposed to 20th Century Fox :) )


Such were the proofs of valour given by the Lacedemonians and
Thespians; yet the Spartan Dienekes is said to have proved himself the
best man of all, the same who, as they report, uttered this saying
before they engaged battle with the Medes:--being informed by one of
the men of Trachis that when the Barbarians discharged their arrows
they obscured the light of the sun by the multitude of the arrows, so
great was the number of their host, he was not dismayed by this, but
making small account of the number of the Medes, he said that their
guest from Trachis brought them very good news, for if the Medes
obscured the light of the sun, the battle against them would be in the
shade and not in the sun.

You said it better than I.

[Shisumo]

Exactly! What miffs me is that some people think this is a reference to a modern movie, when in turn that movie is based off of a really old story about a REAL battle!


Honestly, I first heard it somewhere completely different (http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=29185899174%201%20BETA).

[Krytha]

Dislike for Elan peaking... peaking...

[A_S]

Hehehe...excellent comic. I'm always amused to see again just how much Elan and Belkar really have in common.

[Wikkin]

Funny. Kinda average as strips go, but an average OOTS strip is still pretty good hehe.

[Blackmoore]

If Elan lives trough this, I'll be surprised :D

[Wizzrobe]

The arrows stick in the wall; Roy's armour must be real tough to keep them from going through him!

[Wizzardman]

...Bah. It doesn't take war to give Belkar the sense of humor of a high, superangsty thirteen year old. He does that all on his own.

And that's why we love him.

[Senko]

Actually I have some pain variants both of the if you take enough damage to justify a massive damage save your fatigued, a second one exhausted and in the sense of wounds/vitality where any damage to wound is really, really nasty (losing limbs nasty if you take more than half of them in one hit). Also there was one I played where any critical hit had the chance of doing bad things (lose of voice, limb, weapon etc.).

EDIT
As for the arrows the ones stuck in the wall may have been magic arrows there were enough in the air to justify a few high enough to have magic weapons which would be better at penetrating.

[Tharr]

The 300 line was great but whats next some TMNT jokes now.
Now beware for teenage ninja mutant trogs plus wererat monk leader.
Beware of wooden horse left outside it might be some trap.
How about episodes title war makes boys how the role V and Haley.

[Haruki-kun]

LOL, how can V possibly think there is no friendship possible between Belkar and Elan?

Sorry, Roy, Elan's got a girlfriend.

[Jazzvader]

Awwwwwwwwww, how cute.

Roy will never hear the end of this....

I verily concur with you.

[Xartyve]

Nah not a very good comic in my opinion. But I do look forward to the next one (at the moment its been good-bad-good-bad-good)

[TheNovak]

What's with all the rage and bitterness directed against people complimentin' the 300 quote? I know that most of our fellow Americans don't know jack-all about ancient Greek history, but I'd like to imagine that most of the folks who play D&D and read OoTS are a little smarter than Joe Sixpack.

Anyway, the line made me giggle. Good stuff.

[theKOT]

Awww, I like Roy a lot better now. He still has issues stemming from communication problems he picked up as a child... But at least he's a good person under all the snark and ego.

[NephandiMan]

Instead of turning to a bard to inspire the soldiers in the future, perhaps Hinjo will just shout, "THIS IS AZURE CITY!"

[Dragor]

Nice comic. "But I don't want to fight in the shade!" :smalltongue: made me titter.

Also, where's the TMNT refrence? Didn't see it anywhere.

[Green Bean]

Heh. OotS just isn't OotS without Belkar and Elan teaming up to make Roy wonder if saving the world is really worth it. :smallbiggrin:

[Illsbane]

Wow, this was nice and familiar; Elan and Belkar, teaming up to make Roy uncomfortable. ^^ Heh heh heh ...

[Electric_Monkey]

The 300 isn't even the first movie about the battle of Thermopylae. There was also a 1962 movie, which of course also included the "fight in the shade" line. Popular depictions of that battle are listedhere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae_in_popular_culture)

[V Junior]

Oh my gosh, the world is collapsing ALREADY! Roy liiiikes Elan, Roy liiiiiiiikes Elan, and he's never going to hear the end of thiiiiis!

I think, however, Elan and Belkar are going to pay. I know how it'll happen!
(They're all in a boat on a river)

:elan: Row row, row your boat, gently down the stream!
:roy: Push the annoying bard out, you get to watch him scream!
OR
:roy: Push the evil ranger out, you get to watch him scream!

[Professor Tanhauser]

Oh, Elan and Belkar have teamed up to tease roy before, like when he was poisoned and couldn't move, so they did the "artwork" around him.

Let's not forget the "Roy's cleavage" bit either.

[Imperator]

Another excellent strip.

:roy: "Let the regretting begin"

Priceless!

[Albion]

Hehehehe, now that was an old-school awesome one. :smallbiggrin: Nice to have those on a satisfactorily frequent basis.

Great comic title!
Oh, and isn't it like, Elan is mocking himself just as much as Roy, just so he can at least make fun of him for once. ("Roy likes Elan!" Ok, that's not necessarily a minus for Elan, but it would be, were they 7 years old?) Like the not-so-cool/smart-kid happily taking down the cool/smart kid with him, dragging him to his level... it just hit me, that's hilarious. *snickers to himself*

[Cythraul]

The guy who is chatting up Haley was in prison for Grand Larceny - I'm thinking that this might at some point be relevant...
Great comic!

[ref]

Futurama? I think I've missed it...

[Castamir]

The guy who is chatting up Haley was in prison for Grand Larceny - I'm thinking that this might at some point be relevant... And in the Origins, Haley was wanted (among others) for public indecency. I seriously hope this will be relevant, tooAnd as for Dienekes' line... it was Spartans, with their "laconic" (ie, "spartan") speech who really started badass one-liners.

[Ave]

*sniff*
Roy is the man...

I mean how cool was that. We can pretend that Roy actually saved Elan's life though.
Man that brought a smile to my face.

On a side note, are we getting an education on the giants view of how to use PC's in warfare?

What was 3 arrows in the bottom of Roy could have 5-7 arrows in all over the body of Elan. Probably touching some more precious parts, not the brain :)
Elan has worse AC, wasn't in partial cover, didn't expect arrows (no dex bonus).

[Fingolfin]

Hehe, loved the 300 and I have boyfriend lines. Good comic. :)

[factotum]

A lot of people seem to be regarding the byplay between Elan and Belkar as them "teaming up" on Roy, but I don't think it works like that. Elan is saying something he really believes, whereas Belkar is saying stuff because he knows it'll irritate Roy--the motives are completely different.

[Raeden]

Nice comic!
Warning: geekery ahead.

About that AC and HP reason everyone says roy should've used to save his face: it's not true, and you guys don't realise that but Elan and Belkar do. Roy wears medium armor (see OotS 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0005.html)). The best medium armor gives an AC of +5. Furthermore, nothing gives us reason to think he has a high dex (better AC) and high con (better HP) (see OotS 36 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0036.html), Giant's description of the fight with Miko (http://%22http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html%5DOotS38%5B/url%5D%20and%20%5Burl=%22http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639#post291639) in OotS 251 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html)). So his AC counts up to 15, he might have a ring of protection or maybe his armor is magical, but we have no evidence for that.

As for Elan, he wears a Chain Shirt (See OotS 1 (http://OotS%201)) Which grants +4, and his dex is most likely 12 or higher (he is fairly good at tumbling and maybe has weapon finesse, for example see OotS 61 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0061.html) and OotS 206 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html)). A dex of 12 grants +1 to AC, so Elan's grand total is 15 too, with maybe an added magic item we have no evidence of.

Finally, I'd like to say that personally I'd ask a player caught in a rain of arrows to make a reflex save, instead of rolling myself for every arrow landing in his square, and I see a lot of DM's doing this, and I think it's valid because other situations in which stuff showers upon players calls for a reflex save as well. And ofcourse Elan has the better reflex save, being a bard with a dex score greater than 10 (ofcourse he failed his spotcheck to notice the arrows, which would give him a penalty on his roll, but still).

In short: it IS all in the numbers, Roy was right in that part. But the numbers say he didn't want Elan to get hurt, and Belkar and Elan know it.

EDIT: Arg! I forgot Elan lost his Chain Shirt (OotS 388 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html)). Makes me wonder though why he didn't take Nale's, they look about the same size.
So alright, Roy has the higher AC now.

[BisectedBrioche]

I wonder if Elan'll write Roy yet another best friends sond ¬_¬

[Nightwing]

:roy: + :elan:= love

[Necromas]

It probably would have been better if Elan took the hit actually, assuming the enemies fired a volley, it would be a reflex save to dodge the arrows and Elan surely has a higher one.

[Mordaedil]

Pleased to see people actually enjoying this one.

[fwiffo]

What the heck is wrong with Azure City? There has been a round of attack by Xykon, which did a fair deal of damage. Fine, the opening salvo is up to attackers. But now we have another attack, and it is ... Xykon again? Especially archers, which have to shoot up, making them far less effective, in real world at least.

Has anyone seen any dead hobgoblins?

[BisectedBrioche]

What the heck is wrong with Azure City? There has been a round of attack by Xykon, which did a fair deal of damage. Fine, the opening salvo is up to attackers. But now we have another attack, and it is ... Xykon again? Especially archers, which have to shoot up, making them far less effective, in real world at least.

Has anyone seen any dead hobgoblins?

The dead hobgoblins are probably on the ground (having been killed by arrows as none of them have been involved in HtH combat yet). Not on the castle walls where all the fighting has been based so far.

[Blaznak]

Hey, I wondered how long before 300 would impact the Gaming world. Answer? About 3 days... :)
Not that that's a bad thing...

Nice diatribe on arrows, by the way, but lucky for Roy he wasn't getting critted. That's when the damage starts to really add up!

[ref]

So anyone care to explain the Futurama, please?

[Stormkitten]

Someone already did:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2182591&postcount=75

[SeomanCC]

Lol! Absolutely fricken hilarious. Bravo OOTS :)

[Wolfram]

I'm loving the 300 reference. And the fact thay Roy would take the bullet... great!


Actualy, that was from Heroditus. Miller just used it for 300.

Elan is Moron Labe! :smallbiggrin:

[PhoenixRisen]

I'm loving the 300 reference. And the fact thay Roy would take the bullet... great!

The best thing about that line is that you don't have to have seen 300 yet (like me) to enjoy it. All you have to do is know your Spartan history. That line reflects what the Spartan leader said during the actual battle that 300 is based on.

[Brawl]

Great one :)But still Roy saved potion, warriors have more HP then bards, so Roy can drink potion after 30 arrows in his back, Elan on the other side after 20 arrows will be in difficult situation. Go Roy!:roy:

[Grey Watcher]

Not having seen 300 yet, I don't get the 300 reference everyone's going on about, but I loves me some Futurama references when I get them. (Elan's line in the first panel.)

[Azzurus]

300 reference FTW!Their arrows blotted out the sun...

[Sinewmire]

Great stuff!

Even if Elan and Roy both have the same AC, it's likely Roy has the more HP, remember.

[MaxKaladin]

Not having seen 300 yet, I don't get the 300 reference everyone's going on about, but I loves me some Futurama references when I get them. (Elan's line in the first panel.)I have not seen 300 either, but the "300 reference" everyone is going on about is a reference to a line that dates to long before anyone even knew what a movie was. According to Herodotus, a Spartan warrior at the battle 300 is based on (Thermopylae) named Dienekes was told that the Persians were so numerous that their arrows would blot out the sun and he replied "So much the better, we shall fight in the shade". This line, or one very much like it, has shown up in pretty much every adaptation of the battle ever, so I'm sure it's in 300. When Elan sees the hobgoblin arrows, he references this line by saying "But I don't want to fight in the shade."

The reason some of us are annoyed at calling it a 300 reference is that the line in question is far, far older than that movie.

[JKR]

kinda killed the tension of the last few comics, but made me laugh so its all good ^_^

Yeah, it completely killed the flow for me personally, which is why the comic was great but I didn't like it. In this epic battle, I don't think it's time for jokes. Oh well. I guess the whole series isn't really about being serious at all. The only time I ever felt anxious was when Miko and Belkar were fighting around the trial.

[MaxKaladin]

Exactly! What miffs me is that some people think this is a reference to a modern movie, when in turn that movie is based off of a really old story about a REAL battle!Ditto.


Also, as I understood it, that battle occured at some sort of pass, where only a few men could stand abreast, which allowed the spartans to rotate through their better - trained soldiers while only fighting a certain number of enemies at once. Would that be correct?Pretty much. Thermopylae (The "Gates of Fire") was a pass at a place where the mountains met the sea. The coastline has changed since the battle was fought and there's now a fairly broad plain there but, at the time of the battle, there was just a narrow gap between the ocean and a steep rock face. It was narrow enough that a small force could hold this against a much larger force and that's what the Spartans and the Thespians (it wasn't just the Spartans at the end) tried to do.

Also, it's not the only battle to take place there. Greek armies held it at other times after the famous battle and the Romans destroyed an army that tried to hold it against them.

[BisectedBrioche]

What is 300? Is it something thats no reached this side of the Atlantic or do I need to get out more?

[JKR]

What is 300? Is it something thats no reached this side of the Atlantic or do I need to get out more?

It's a violent, gory movie where everyone dies.

[atteSmythe]

Actually, I think the line is from one of the historical accounts of the battle of Thermopylae, not just made up for the movie.

(Yeah, I read the thread, but everyone else was saying it, and I didn't want to feel left out)

[Twilight Jack]

I hate to break it to all the historians in the room, but Elan's "Fight in the shade," line is very much a 300 reference. The film just had a phenomenal opening weekend and is currently the pop culture touchstone du jour. Without the flick, Elan's line would have been an obscure (to the non-historians) reference to a battle fought over two millennia ago. The accessibility of the humor is provided by the current popularity of the movie.

I appreciate the impulse that makes us history buffs feel indignant and aggrieved when pop culture turns our pedagoguery into a sound bite, but lecturing the poor souls who recognize the reference because of a highly stylized movie or comic book just makes us seem elitist and pedantic.

Herodotus' accounts of the ancient world are full of anecdotal and apocryphal quotes and scenes. Let's face it, unless Herodotus was standing right there when Dienekes made his original comment regarding the cooling effect of arrows on a hot battleground, then he heard about it second-, third-, or fourth-hand. It's not entirely outside the realm of possibility that he made it up himself, considering that historians of the era were notorious for florid prose and exaggeration. These guys were chroniclers, not bean counters. They weren't above enhancing events for the sake of a narrative. Also, being Greek himself, Herodotus definitely had a bias towards making his countrymen appear very, very cool.

[moleytov]

It's a violent, gory movie where everyone dies.

The best kind then.
Awesome comic, Giant, poor Roy.

[consul]

Anyone STILL think Roy's a jerk for "not" liking Elan??? Looks like he's an old softie after all...

But it really isn't new info, as we knew that, roy and elan knew that. Roy just doesn't want to admit it.

[Doug Lampert]

Best. 300. Reference. EVER.
It's a Herodotus reference. The fight in the shade reference was famous for well over 2000 YEARS prior to anyone making a comic book or movie.

[Doug Lampert]

Exactly! What miffs me is that some people think this is a reference to a modern movie, when in turn that movie is based off of a really old story about a REAL battle!

Also, as I understood it, that battle occured at some sort of pass, where only a few men could stand abreast, which allowed the spartans to rotate through their better - trained soldiers while only fighting a certain number of enemies at once. Would that be correct?

EDIT



You said it better than I.It was a fortified pass, the Spartans were probably on this piece of advanced tech called a stone wall. They had about 7 thousand other guys with them through most of the fighting and held rather easily for several days. On the final day the Persians snuck their elite royal guard unit of 10,000+ men into the rear of the Greek formation and almost everyone bugged out (Herodotus claims they were ordered to retreat by the Spartan commander). The Spartans, Thebans, and Thesbians stayed behind to play rear-guard and allegedly came out of the fortifications and attacked the entire Persian army. They lost. All the Spartans except one detached as liason to another unit and one in the rear with an eye problem were killed (the guy with the eye problem suicided later), most of the Thesbians were killed, the Thebans are alleged to have surrendered as soon as they could but the history we have was written by someone who didn't like Thebans and it shows in multiple places so that may or may not be accurate.

[kpenguin]

I hate to break it to all the historians in the room, but Elan's "Fight in the shade," line is very much a 300 reference. The film just had a phenomenal opening weekend and is currently the pop culture touchstone du jour. Without the flick, Elan's line would have been an obscure (to the non-historians) reference to a battle fought over two millennia ago. The accessibility of the humor is provided by the current popularity of the movie.

I appreciate the impulse that makes us history buffs feel indignant and aggrieved when pop culture turns our pedagoguery into a sound bite, but lecturing the poor souls who recognize the reference because of a highly stylized movie or comic book just makes us seem elitist and pedantic.


Point conceded. Looking over what has been posted (including by myself), it does seem a bit elitest. I, personally, knew the line from some history books I read. There are a lot better lines the Spartans had, but being as they may/may not be in the popular movie, they weren't referenced. I do however, like the credit to go to good ol' Herodotus for the line (and thus parody of it), not the folks who made 300. 300 may have put it into the public concious, but Herodotus made it known in the first place.

[snelson66]

Sweet 300 reference, Giant. And Haley's "I have a boyfriend" line was subtle yet awesome.

Why do I get the feeling that Belkar is going to be used as a catapult missile?

[BisectedBrioche]

I hate to break it to all the historians in the room, but Elan's "Fight in the shade," line is very much a 300 reference. The film just had a phenomenal opening weekend and is currently the pop culture touchstone du jour. Without the flick, Elan's line would have been an obscure (to the non-historians) reference to a battle fought over two millennia ago. The accessibility of the humor is provided by the current popularity of the movie.

I appreciate the impulse that makes us history buffs feel indignant and aggrieved when pop culture turns our pedagoguery into a sound bite, but lecturing the poor souls who recognize the reference because of a highly stylized movie or comic book just makes us seem elitist and pedantic.

Herodotus' accounts of the ancient world are full of anecdotal and apocryphal quotes and scenes. Let's face it, unless Herodotus was standing right there when Dienekes made his original comment regarding the cooling effect of arrows on a hot battleground, then he heard about it second-, third-, or fourth-hand. It's not entirely outside the realm of possibility that he made it up himself, considering that historians of the era were notorious for florid prose and exaggeration. These guys were chroniclers, not bean counters. They weren't above enhancing events for the sake of a narrative. Also, being Greek himself, Herodotus definitely had a bias towards making his countrymen appear very, very cool.

Every single one of the points you made can be answer with "This is then internet you know...."

Also: I don't have any particular interest in history and I've known about that quote for years, as has pretty much everyone I know.

[kpenguin]

Hey, I just noticed something:

Haley didn't look too mad or anything when Mr. Grand Larceny hit on her. No arched eyebrows or frown. She didn't reprimand him either. Could this be an indication of something? They both have a similar background (thieves).

[Greebo]

Hey, I just noticed something:

Haley didn't look too mad or anything when Mr. Grand Larceny hit on her. No arched eyebrows or frown. She didn't reprimand him either. Could this be an indication of something? They both have a similar background (thieves).
Maybe she was, I dunno, intent on targeting the oncoming enemy and wanted this guy to stop bugging her. Haley's not an unattractive woman. Getting hit on by strangers would be a matter of routine for her.

[happyturtle]

Hey, I just noticed something:

Haley didn't look too mad or anything when Mr. Grand Larceny hit on her. No arched eyebrows or frown. She didn't reprimand him either. Could this be an indication of something? They both have a similar background (thieves).

Why should she be angry? There's nothing wrong with trying, as long as he doesn't go all creepy and stalkerish after getting told no.

[metawidget]

Dammit, do you people just sit here and press refresh until the thread comes up? I was lurking here for hours!
I have an RSS reader to hit refresh for me. :smalltongue: See the front page for RSS feed addresses.

[Twilight Jack]

Point conceded. Looking over what has been posted (including by myself), it does seem a bit elitest. I, personally, knew the line from some history books I read. There are a lot better lines the Spartans had, but being as they may/may not be in the popular movie, they weren't referenced. I do however, like the credit to go to good ol' Herodotus for the line (and thus parody of it), not the folks who made 300. 300 may have put it into the public concious, but Herodotus made it known in the first place.

By all means. The history of ancient Greece has always been a subject of special fascination for me. I love the stuff, but my postmodern leanings have caused me to recognize that the historians of the day dealt in narrative, enhancement, and outright fabrication as much as any biased media outlet of our own modern world. I'm just pointing out that the appeal of the line is in its context. OotS is riffing on the 300, which is riffing on Herodotus, who was in turn riffing on the reputation/exploits of the Spartans in the Battle of Thermopylae, who were themselves riffing on the reputation/exploits of Chuck Norris.

Directly, Elan's line is in reference to a currently popular film; it's that context that gives the line a broad appeal as a joke. I just take slight umbrage at the need some have to vaunt a perceived membership in the elect by behaving with condescension towards those who made the movie connection before the 2,500 year-old historian connection.

If you truly liked the joke because of the Herodotus reference, then be very thankful that it's recognizable because of the film. The joke wouldn't have likely been included without it.

[fractal]

If you truly liked the joke because of the Herodotus reference, then be very thankful that it's recognizable because of the film. The joke wouldn't have likely been included without it.
I would like to point out that the line has been repeated multiple times since Herodotus, before being repeated again in 300. The Magic card Elvish Archers has already been mentioned, and of course there have been other movies and such about the battle of Thermopylae. I'd say that's enough cultural references to justify the line even without a fresh movie.

It is interesting, btw, that the OotS and Azure City don't yet realize Redcloak's role in the attack.

[Twilight Jack]

Every single one of the points you made can be answer with "This is then internet you know...."

Yup, it's the internets, home of the elitist and condescending, as well as the porn. I have no illusions about it, but it's still somewhat tiresome.


Also: I don't have any particular interest in history and I've known about that quote for years, as has pretty much everyone I know.

Of course you have; it's a great line and you can find it in just about any encyclopedia or world history class. It doesn't change the fact that it's in the current strip primarily because of the context provided by the film, which is my main point of contention with those who are chastising the ones who recognize it primarily because of that film.

It's like the, "I liked them before they were popular, so you can't call yourself a fan around me," set in the music snob clique. If they hadn't become popular, you wouldn't be able to chastise these new fans for their lack of long-term dedication. As long as the music doesn't start to suck, just enjoy that you now have people with whom to actually discuss the band.

I admit that I listen to/know about a lot of obscure crap, and the impulse to look down upon those who go fan-boy on a suddenly well-known band/movie/book/historical snippet that I've been enjoying for years is certainly a strong one. Much like the impulse to punch someone in the face when they piss you off, it's generally an impulse upon which it is best not to act.

[Twilight Jack]

I would like to point out that the line has been repeated multiple times since Herodotus, before being repeated again in 300. The Magic card Elvish Archers has already been mentioned, and of course there have been other movies and such about the battle of Thermopylae. I'd say that's enough cultural references to justify the line even without a fresh movie.

Perhaps, but it would have been a weaker joke without the current context. I've seen that line from the 300 in most of the trailers, the tv spots, you name it. It's practically the film's tagline.

Fight in the shade, fight in the shade, fight in the shade. It's suddenly ubiquitous.

:elan: But I don't want to fight in the shade.

See, it's funny because of the repetition followed by a juxtaposition.

Without that, it's just an in-joke.

[JetTheOne]

I just checked back and on comic #422, V cast "protection from arrows". What was the spell cast on and if it was cast on troops would it lessen the damage from the arrows that peirced Roy, or is "protection from arrows" a time sensitive spell, or perhaps AoE?

[Caractacus]

I just checked back and on comic #422, V cast "protection from arrows". What was the spell cast on and if it was cast on troops would it lessen the damage from the arrows that peirced Roy, or is "protection from arrows" a time sensitive spell, or perhaps AoE?

Looks to me like he cast it on himself - he's the one that REALLY needs it, what with no HPs or AC to speak of...

[Pantler]

How cute :smallsmile:

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s265/dolorite/larceny.gif So, uh... you doing anything after the war, gorgeous?

You gotta love that guy. :smallbiggrin:

[Ironfist Orc]

Fantastic strip.

If there's a Twilight Jack fanclub, I'd be interested in joining. (Except for the fact that I'm against fanclubs in general, but the drift should be gotten.)

[Fighteer]

I just checked back and on comic #422, V cast "protection from arrows". What was the spell cast on and if it was cast on troops would it lessen the damage from the arrows that peirced Roy, or is "protection from arrows" a time sensitive spell, or perhaps AoE?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromArrows.htm
One target per cast, up to 100 points of damage absorbed. He'd expend his entire repertoire of 2nd level spells before he touched one percent of the defending soldiers. Plus, one sword blow still kills them. It's a waste on low level characters; it's much more effective on low AC, high value targets like mages.

To the issue of Roy's Armor Class, even if he's wearing medium nonmagical armor and has no Dex bonus (AC 15), the hobgoblin archers are pushing an average +2 to-hit bonus against at least one, maybe two range increments (-4), plus cover (+4 to Roy's AC). They still need a natural 20 to hit him. The DM could also rule on whether him knocking Elan down allows him to count as prone (another +4 AC modifier), although it's more or less redundant. (When Elan is standing and is not behind the battlement, he loses his cover bonus to AC and is a much easier target.)

In RAW, however, there is no "duck behind cover" in response to a ranged attack; you're either in cover or not when the attacker makes his roll. In this case, however, it appears that Roy is using a Reflex save to provide cover for Elan, which in this specific circumstance would mean Elan gets the +4 cover AC from Roy, but Roy is not under cover and would be easier to hit. Like many things, it's dramatic license. I highly doubt that the Giant is sitting at his computer rolling dice.

[Twilight Jack]

Fantastic strip.

If there's a Twilight Jack fanclub, I'd be interested in joining. (Except for the fact that I'm against fanclubs in general, but the drift should be gotten.)

There is indeed a Twilight Jack fanclub, but it's not native to this forum. Twilight Jack is the name of a few different incarnations of a character I have played, most notably in a multi-player space flight combat sim called Tachyon. The game was awesome, but the multi-player community was rather small, allowing an actual community to form around the game (the best part). I first adopted the persona there, playing up the idea of an over-the-top glam rock star in the tradition of Ziggy Stardust. His participation in the space combat of the actual game was explained as his own version of "Live fast, die young, and leave a good looking corpse." In later years, he ended up founding his own religion, which was only half a parody of itself.

And yeah, there was a fanclub. We had t-shirts, but since it was a fictional fanclub, nobody bought them.

[Reptilius]

Mmmm...300...

[Crazy Slasher]

A comic after my own heart. *squee*

Haley's cool and all, but Belkars line = priceless.

[soozenw]

it's probably been mentioned, but I don't want to fight in the shade made me very very spartanly happy.

[Roderick_BR]

Hey, I just noticed something:

Haley didn't look too mad or anything when Mr. Grand Larceny hit on her. No arched eyebrows or frown. She didn't reprimand him either. Could this be an indication of something? They both have a similar background (thieves).
Maybe she considered him so out of her league, that she paid him no attention.Or her "I have a boyfriend" was enough. You could also say that she didn't look funny at him or anything because she was already expecting someone dressed like him to try some pick up line.
Or, since her talk with O-Chul, she's been paying more attention to the battle.

[Skydiving_Ninja]

The battle of Thermopylae reference was the best part.

"But I don't want to fight in the shade!"

Btw, what material is Larceny Guy's bow made of? What kind of wood is a maroon color?

[pendell]

Strip: Meh. :Wiggles hand: So-so. I guess it's because the last one pwned so well. I'll probably appreciate it better in retrospect.

To those who think the Spartans would defeat both armies ... you might read up on the Battle of Lechaeum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lechaeum) To counteract the pro-Spartan press from Thermopylae.

The Spartans were a one-trick pony: Their army consisted of the finest heavy infantry in the ancient world. As long as their enemies were stupid enough to fight them face-to-face on foot with shock weapons, the Spartans would probably win.

The problem immediately crops up if you run into an enemy that relies on missile weapons (as in the battle above) or has high mobility through the use of horses. Give me 300 medieval knights on horseback to charge that phalanx, and we'll see how well the Spartans stand up. The stirrup, remember, hadn't been invented in the time of the Spartans.

The fundamental issue is that the Spartans are not a combined arms army -- they consist of one *very good* branch of heavy infantry, but light infantry/light cavalry/heavy cavalry is minimal to nonexistent. Both Xykon's and the Azure City armies are combined arms forces. Even without the addition of magic, a Spartan army would probably not beat either army if they were handled intelligently.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Electric_Monkey]

How cute :smallsmile:

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s265/dolorite/larceny.gif So, uh... you doing anything after the war, gorgeous?

You gotta love that guy. :smallbiggrin:

Hayley doesn't. I see a sneak attack in that guy's future, if they both survive the battle.

[Tussy the Druid]

Alas, 30 years from now, when oots is a classic, the 300 reference will not be understood.

[Twilight Jack]

Alas, 30 years from now, when oots is a classic, the 300 reference will not be understood.

Ah, but the Battle of Thermopylae reference will and all those elitist history buffs will be forever vindicated. :smallwink:

[Jensik]

Btw, what material is Larceny Guy's bow made of? What kind of wood is a maroon color?Well if we're going into that what kind of wood is blue? (see Azure City archer's bows) Granted I'm no wood expert and I've never seen any that is naturaly maroonish I find it less likely that there is wood that is blue.

[FlyMolo]

There are maroon dyes. And blue ones. Made of plants.

And the question is, did the Giant plan the "shade" line before or after he saw/heard about 300?

If he did, he is incredibly awesome.

If he didn't, meh, he's still cool.

Edit: @Pendell
"The Spartans were a one-trick pony: Their army consisted of the finest heavy infantry in the ancient world. As long as their enemies were stupid enough to fight them face-to-face on foot with shock weapons, the Spartans would probably win.

The problem immediately crops up if you run into an enemy that relies on missile weapons (as in the battle above) or has high mobility through the use of horses. Give me 300 medieval knights on horseback to charge that phalanx, and we'll see how well the Spartans stand up. The stirrup, remember, hadn't been invented in the time of the Spartans.

The fundamental issue is that the Spartans are not a combined arms army -- they consist of one *very good* branch of heavy infantry, but light infantry/light cavalry/heavy cavalry is minimal to nonexistent. Both Xykon's and the Azure City armies are combined arms forces. Even without the addition of magic, a Spartan army would probably not beat either army if they were handled intelligently. "

To be perfectly reasonable, the Spartan hoplites worked incredibly well against other hoplites, other heavy infantry, and light infantry in some cases. For example, Battle of Thermopylae. Persian light infantry and javelin troops. The hoplites just sat there. The Spartans were only buying time anyway. They could sit there all day being shot at. That's why they were given shields.

The Persians had vastly superior numbers and needed to get through the pass as fast as possible. In a restricted pass, against hoplites who don't have to move, light infantry loses.

However, in most other cases, yes, light javelin infantry does beat heavy hoplite troops. Shock cavalry does too. For the shock cavalry, all you need is a stirrup. However, in a situation where the hoplites have to pursue light infantry, the light infantry wins easily. Hoplite armor is heavy. you wait till they get tired, then run over and stab them while they're lying on the ground exhausted.

Sorry to ramble on, but still. The Spartans were outnumbered 50 to 1, approximately. They still lasted about three days. The casualties were also disproportionately Persian. Light infantry can and will only beat hoplites if you can get them to run around and get tired.

[Fox]

Ooooooooooooooo Roy is in hot water. Haley is going to kick his ass. :smallbiggrin:

[TakerFoxx]

Looks like Haley isn't the only latently bisexual one. Celia's gonna be pissed...

I kid, I kid. :smallwink:

[dragon95046]

The following is a possible spoiler for 300, not OotS.

Despite what some of said here, the Spartans would have gotten their ass handed to them by Xycon, Redcloak and their army...well, ok, by Xycon and Redcloak. while they could have chewed through tons of goblins and undead, the fireballs, lightning bolts, flamestrikes, and maybe even meteor swarms would just decimate a phalanx formation. Particularly in the end when the Spartans formed their shield bubble. A single fireball could have hit every last one of them.

[Twilight Jack]

The following is a possible spoiler for 300, not OotS.

Despite what some of said here, the Spartans would have gotten their ass handed to them by Xycon, Redcloak and their army...well, ok, by Xycon and Redcloak. while they could have chewed through tons of goblins and undead, the fireballs, lightning bolts, flamestrikes, and maybe even meteor swarms would just decimate a phalanx formation. Particularly in the end when the Spartans formed their shield bubble. A single fireball could have hit every last one of them.

Yeah, the phalanx formation really doesn't take a 20-ft. radius with Caster Level x d6 damage into account. You might want to go thinning out that line, there.

[Milandros]

I hate to break it to all the historians in the room, but Elan's "Fight in the shade," line is very much a 300 reference. The film just had a phenomenal opening weekend and is currently the pop culture touchstone du jour. Without the flick, Elan's line would have been an obscure (to the non-historians) reference to a battle fought over two millennia ago. The accessibility of the humor is provided by the current popularity of the movie.

I appreciate the impulse that makes us history buffs feel indignant and aggrieved when pop culture turns our pedagoguery into a sound bite, but lecturing the poor souls who recognize the reference because of a highly stylized movie or comic book just makes us seem elitist and pedantic.

Herodotus' accounts of the ancient world are full of anecdotal and apocryphal quotes and scenes. Let's face it, unless Herodotus was standing right there when Dienekes made his original comment regarding the cooling effect of arrows on a hot battleground, then he heard about it second-, third-, or fourth-hand. It's not entirely outside the realm of possibility that he made it up himself, considering that historians of the era were notorious for florid prose and exaggeration. These guys were chroniclers, not bean counters. They weren't above enhancing events for the sake of a narrative. Also, being Greek himself, Herodotus definitely had a bias towards making his countrymen appear very, very cool.

Two things:
You may well be right,but as has been said it's not like it's an obscure quote - it's been made many times before,and the Giant has often made references to relatively obscure things,not just the stuff that was out in the last two weeks.

You're right about Herodotus, of course. He's known as the father of history,but also as the father of lies, at least partially for his tendency to make up all the dialog. :)

[Milandros]

There are maroon dyes. And blue ones. Made of plants.

And the question is, did the Giant plan the "shade" line before or after he saw/heard about 300?

If he did, he is incredibly awesome.

If he didn't, meh, he's still cool.

Edit: @Pendell
"The Spartans were a one-trick pony: Their army consisted of the finest heavy infantry in the ancient world. As long as their enemies were stupid enough to fight them face-to-face on foot with shock weapons, the Spartans would probably win.

The problem immediately crops up if you run into an enemy that relies on missile weapons (as in the battle above) or has high mobility through the use of horses. Give me 300 medieval knights on horseback to charge that phalanx, and we'll see how well the Spartans stand up. The stirrup, remember, hadn't been invented in the time of the Spartans.

The fundamental issue is that the Spartans are not a combined arms army -- they consist of one *very good* branch of heavy infantry, but light infantry/light cavalry/heavy cavalry is minimal to nonexistent. Both Xykon's and the Azure City armies are combined arms forces. Even without the addition of magic, a Spartan army would probably not beat either army if they were handled intelligently. "

To be perfectly reasonable, the Spartan hoplites worked incredibly well against other hoplites, other heavy infantry, and light infantry in some cases. For example, Battle of Thermopylae. Persian light infantry and javelin troops. The hoplites just sat there. The Spartans were only buying time anyway. They could sit there all day being shot at. That's why they were given shields.

The Persians had vastly superior numbers and needed to get through the pass as fast as possible. In a restricted pass, against hoplites who don't have to move, light infantry loses.

However, in most other cases, yes, light javelin infantry does beat heavy hoplite troops. Shock cavalry does too. For the shock cavalry, all you need is a stirrup. However, in a situation where the hoplites have to pursue light infantry, the light infantry wins easily. Hoplite armor is heavy. you wait till they get tired, then run over and stab them while they're lying on the ground exhausted.

Sorry to ramble on, but still. The Spartans were outnumbered 50 to 1, approximately. They still lasted about three days. The casualties were also disproportionately Persian. Light infantry can and will only beat hoplites if you can get them to run around and get tired.

Absolutely true - as far as it goes.

The spartans were indeed tough (and for those complaining about "elitist" types, I'm referring to the ancient greeks from the city of Sparta, not the enhanced super-soldiers epitomised by the Master Chief :smalltongue: - who make movie spartans and historical spartans look like children with sticks) They were possibly the best heavy infantry Greece had. However, they didn't win all their battles, and they weren't always outnumbered 50 to 1.

Circumstance is the key. "A would kick B's ass" almost always requires the unspoken addendum "in terrain favouring A, with appropriate weather conditions, states of rest, experience and training, decent leadership, etc etc etc". Longbowmen would slaughter hoplites, despite their heavy bronze armour - under many conditions. Fight that same battle in a pouring rainstorm or inside a building and the longbowmen are toast.

Hoplites alone here would be in trouble (unless, like it appears the new movie shows, you use 300 level 15 fighter spatan hoplites). They'd be facing combined arms, archers, magic, flying opponents... ooh, bad. On the other hand, 300 trained spartan hoplites in full armour would be a great addition to either side, when supported by the rest of the army. A small core of elite heavy infantry has many uses!

[Black_Light83]

Dooods, LOL ( as usual) and yay for the 300 refrance. its always nice to throw in a few refrances here and there for those of us who dont get all the jokes. but hey thats what friends who know everything about D&D are for :smalltongue:

[the_tick_rules]

what did belkar mean about living? did it concern critical hits or sneak attack damage or something?
Oh and that shade line was way before 300 but yeah it was probably the inspiration, i wonder how elan saw it? That was actually written down as having been said by an actual spartan to an actual persian, so it's quite literally a classic.
Oh and about the spartans choice of battle tactics. In greece at this time the phalanx attack was considered the honorable way to fight. They'd like schedule the battle on a good weather days, meet, line up and fight, then negoiate after. It was a different way of doing things in those days.

[Kesnit]

what did belkar mean about living? did it concern critical hits or sneak attack damage or something?

Mark of Justice

[the_tick_rules]

oh yeah, duh. so what the heck did they free him for, he can't do crap.

[Black_Light83]

no how dare you belkar rules, hes done so much... well he saved them from niel... and is funny.

[Nupo]

oh yeah, duh. so what the heck did they free him for, he can't do crap.

He can take out zombies.

[Tharr]

The battle had flying undead like wyverns could this be Nazgul reference in forces going to war. Maybe V will have to use some anti undead light from staff like Gandalf did. V is no Legalos the scout class or the ininate of the bow is more like the great elf archer. Hopefully we see the battleaxe used by our fair dwarf or maybe Thor will show up. The goblins arrows were all reflected by the army of monks now that would be weird. Belkar should be outside the city limit where he can fight. The real question is when is the jail getting destoryed and when is Belkar going to kill Miko. Hope Roy did not get in trouser like titan.

[The Giant]

I hate to break it to all the historians in the room, but Elan's "Fight in the shade," line is very much a 300 reference. The film just had a phenomenal opening weekend and is currently the pop culture touchstone du jour. Without the flick, Elan's line would have been an obscure (to the non-historians) reference to a battle fought over two millennia ago. The accessibility of the humor is provided by the current popularity of the movie.

Except it WAS an obscure reference to classical history, since I'm a big fan of classical history and not really of Frank Miller. I actually forgot the movie was coming out this weekend, I've had the idea of Elan whining about having to fight in the shade in my head for weeks.

Just coincidence...though it's probable that 300 billboards in the area made me think of Thermopylae, which immediately made me think of the famous "Fight in the shade" reference. I think I would have been happier if it were still a quasi-obscure reference, but sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and I can't control what other media becomes popular at any given moment.

[Delgarde]

Except it WAS an obscure reference to classical history, since I'm a big fan of classical history and not really of Frank Miller. I actually forgot the movie was coming out this weekend, I've had the idea of Elan whining about having to fight in the shade in my head for weeks.

Well, that should stop the arguments dead... :)

[snelson66]

Well, that should stop the arguments dead... :)
You'd think so, wouldn't you? :)

[daggaz]

Did V fall inside, or outside of the city walls??

[Spiryt]

Did V fall inside, or outside of the city walls??

All strips which shows top of walls, shows it from inside, so V fall inside.

[random11]

Did you notice how Belkar becomes perceptive and smart when it comes to annoying Roy?
Some sort of a feat like "craft disturbing images"? :smallsmile:

[CGM3]

Well, that should stop the arguments dead... :)

You fool, nothing we can do will stop it! It has a life of it's own now, and will survive so long as the thread continues! We're all doomed, doomed, I tell you!

[Spiryt]

Did you notice how Belkar becomes perceptive and smart when it comes to annoying Roy?
Some sort of a feat like "craft disturbing images"? :smallsmile:

+ 6 supernatural bonus to wisdom and intelligence for purpose of all checks made to annoy team leader :smallbiggrin:

[Zephra]

awwwww, did you see how happy elan was?
tee hee! :smallbiggrin:

[SteveMB]

Did you notice how Belkar becomes perceptive and smart when it comes to annoying Roy?
There's nothing wrong with his intelligence -- it's just a matter of being motivated.

[atteSmythe]

I can't control what other media becomes popular at any given moment.

Well, there goes that theory! Back to the drawing board...

[Twilight Jack]

Except it WAS an obscure reference to classical history, since I'm a big fan of classical history and not really of Frank Miller. I actually forgot the movie was coming out this weekend, I've had the idea of Elan whining about having to fight in the shade in my head for weeks.

Just coincidence...though it's probable that 300 billboards in the area made me think of Thermopylae, which immediately made me think of the famous "Fight in the shade" reference. I think I would have been happier if it were still a quasi-obscure reference, but sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and I can't control what other media becomes popular at any given moment.

I am duly, completely, and horribly wrong, then. :smallsmile:

Although I maintain that the context of the current pop cultural ubiquity of the line followed by Elan's juxtaposition improves the joke.

By your own admission, it would have been just a history reference and something of an in-joke otherwise.

Thanks to a bit of unintended context, it became one of the strip's strongest moments, even for the historically ignorant among your readers.

Even so, all of my original assertions regarding your intentions within the text have been demolished.

Thank g-d for Lacan's Triangle of Perspective!!

[fangthane]

Except it WAS an obscure reference to classical history, since I'm a big fan of classical history and not really of Frank Miller. I actually forgot the movie was coming out this weekend, I've had the idea of Elan whining about having to fight in the shade in my head for weeks.

Just coincidence...though it's probable that 300 billboards in the area made me think of Thermopylae, which immediately made me think of the famous "Fight in the shade" reference. I think I would have been happier if it were still a quasi-obscure reference, but sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and I can't control what other media becomes popular at any given moment.
I think if we read between the lines here, Rich is clearly saying that Belkar is not, in fact, either chaotic or evil... :smallbiggrin:

I jest, of course.:smallsmile:

Good comic as usual, but dangnabbit, big battles take way too long at 3 strips a week!

Sometimes even in a gaming session they take too long, at 10+ minutes a round...

[SteveMB]

I think if we read between the lines here, Rich is clearly saying that Belkar is not, in fact, either chaotic or evil... :smallbiggrin:
Well, duh. Belkar is, in fact, both chaotic and evil. :smallbiggrin:

[kpenguin]

Except it WAS an obscure reference to classical history, since I'm a big fan of classical history and not really of Frank Miller. I actually forgot the movie was coming out this weekend, I've had the idea of Elan whining about having to fight in the shade in my head for weeks.

Just coincidence...though it's probable that 300 billboards in the area made me think of Thermopylae, which immediately made me think of the famous "Fight in the shade" reference. I think I would have been happier if it were still a quasi-obscure reference, but sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and I can't control what other media becomes popular at any given moment.

Quoted for proof that we should not presume to know the intentions of the Giant. Without spoilers, at least.

Seriously though, I was telling my friend about this strip and he laughed at the shade gag, despite him not knowing the quote from either 300 or Herodotus. He thought that the quibble in the face of a a whole bunch of arrows (so much that there was shade) was hilarious and typical of Elan. Its a good joke in its own right, reference or no.

[JetTheOne]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromArrows.htm
One target per cast, up to 100 points of damage absorbed. He'd expend his entire repertoire of 2nd level spells before he touched one percent of the defending soldiers. Plus, one sword blow still kills them. It's a waste on low level characters; it's much more effective on low AC, high value targets like mages.

To the issue of Roy's Armor Class, even if he's wearing medium nonmagical armor and has no Dex bonus (AC 15), the hobgoblin archers are pushing an average +2 to-hit bonus against at least one, maybe two range increments (-4), plus cover (+4 to Roy's AC). They still need a natural 20 to hit him. The DM could also rule on whether him knocking Elan down allows him to count as prone (another +4 AC modifier), although it's more or less redundant. (When Elan is standing and is not behind the battlement, he loses his cover bonus to AC and is a much easier target.)

In RAW, however, there is no "duck behind cover" in response to a ranged attack; you're either in cover or not when the attacker makes his roll. In this case, however, it appears that Roy is using a Reflex save to provide cover for Elan, which in this specific circumstance would mean Elan gets the +4 cover AC from Roy, but Roy is not under cover and would be easier to hit. Like many things, it's dramatic license. I highly doubt that the Giant is sitting at his computer rolling dice.

Thanks for your response Fighteer, my questions have been answered and I learned something too.

[soozenw]

even though Rich says it isn't a 300 quote--I appreciate this strip all the more because I get that joke, because I wouldn't otherwise. either way, you can't go wrong with 300 men running around mostly naked that you can do laundry on their stomachs.

good job!

[Zienth]

Btw, what material is Larceny Guy's bow made of? What kind of wood is a maroon color?

There is a hardwood called "purple heart" that is actually purple, and I've seen a bow made from it. See http://www.thewoodbox.com/data/wood/purpleheartinfo.htm

Zienth

[MandoFTR]

Funny lil quip from Elan.
And to all those who say the Spartans could have been beaten by mounted knights or whatever:

They were trained in warfare OF THAT TIME. I'd imagine if they had survived to the medieval period, they would still kick plenty of arse. ;)

[Baltek Grimm]

Thanks, Giant, another great one!

[Vulion]

When Belkar and Elan come together to make jokes, Roy gets angry, heh heh.

[Kojiro Kakita]

Funny lil quip from Elan.
And to all those who say the Spartans could have been beaten by mounted knights or whatever:

They were trained in warfare OF THAT TIME. I'd imagine if they had survived to the medieval period, they would still kick plenty of arse. ;)

Well, I doubt it, Spartans were good for their time period, but as tactics advanced, the phalanx fell out of favor. Roman Legionaires could kick Spartans any day of the week.

[kabbor]

If a thread search is anything to go by, no one seems to have mentioned Haley's love circumstance bonus. Am I the only one to think that Roy's apparent affection for Elan might just trigger a bit of a bonus for Elan? Oddly Effective Elan might just gain a few extra points: How about a song to inspire the troops? (One that is not "Fight^3 the probably unwinnable battle"?)

[zeratul]

the 300 refference was high-larious, good times "But I dont want to fight in the shade!" priceless.

[zeratul]

Funny lil quip from Elan.
And to all those who say the Spartans could have been beaten by mounted knights or whatever:

They were trained in warfare OF THAT TIME. I'd imagine if they had survived to the medieval period, they would still kick plenty of arse. ;)

I say a spartan could take out an armored knight from 1450 easily.

[Nightmarenny]

Well, I doubt it, Spartans were good for their time period, but as tactics advanced, the phalanx fell out of favor. Roman Legionaires could kick Spartans any day of the week.
What makes you think they would allow their tactics to stagnate? They lived for war. If they were beaten and survived they would adapt.

[Tawkis]

What makes you think they would allow their tactics to stagnate? They lived for war. If they were beaten and survived they would adapt.
But weren't they conquered by the Romans? Doesn't that in essence show that they didn't advance?

I could of course be wrong since my view of history is muddy at best.

[Nightmarenny]

But weren't they conquered by the Romans? Doesn't that in essence show that they didn't advance?

I could of course be wrong since my view of history is muddy at best.I can't be sure but I'd say it more has to do with Romans simply doing it faster and having a larger army. To find a defense for a new weapon you need to survive the first attack and have time to think.

[ElphabaFanatic]

LOL,

:haley: I have a boyfriend...

[FlyMolo]

I say a spartan could take out an armored knight from 1450 easily.

Yes. One could, maybe. But a few hundred of each, and the hoplites start to lose. There's a reason knights became the dominant fighting soldier. And it wasn't because they were pretty.

Post-stirrup warfare rendered the Spartan phalanx obsolete. Yes, they were really awesome. But they didn't have to fight shock cavalry, which would bust up their formation, then slaughter them one by one.

[Mr Teufel]

Except it WAS an obscure reference to classical history, since I'm a big fan of classical history and not really of Frank Miller. I actually forgot the movie was coming out this weekend, I've had the idea of Elan whining about having to fight in the shade in my head for weeks.

Just coincidence...though it's probable that 300 billboards in the area made me think of Thermopylae, which immediately made me think of the famous "Fight in the shade" reference. I think I would have been happier if it were still a quasi-obscure reference, but sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and I can't control what other media becomes popular at any given moment.


the 300 refference was high-larious, good times "But I dont want to fight in the shade!" priceless.

Sigh. Is there a way we can make people read the whole thread before posting? :smallsigh:

[mec]

Something I rarely have occasion to say:

This comic was a little talky for me. I preferred that action strip with Vaarsuvius!

Seriously, every so often, some of the characters play against type: Elan showing everybody how to ride a horse; Belkar under the influence of wisdom; Durkon being the most popular guy. I've always enjoyed that.