Spellcasting Services and the Mundane Economy

[Malroth]

You and your fellow Productive Villagers are 3rd and 4th lv Experts, You max your appropiate crafting skills and are probably getting a Synergy bonus from one of your other skills as well as a Masterwork crafting tool you saved up half a years pay to buy and an apprentice you get Aid Another bonuses from. All things Said taking 10 on craft checks and selling the result you're Grossing About 6-7GP per week 1/3 of which is going to purchace the raw materials for next weeks craft checks.
Now Say your lazy Brother in Law comes back to town with his barely passing C- Grades in Wizarding school, He's also Lv 3 and is charging 30GP for his first lv spells and 60 GP for one of his second lv spells as the misclaneous spell casting service provider.
The Question is, Barring any wandering Murderhobos and their insane needs, Is there any reason at All that the ordinary villagers would blow 2 months or more of their pay on one of his spells? What benefit to the community would they have paying the DMG reccomended cost?

[Tommy2255]

Are you asking what the benefit is to being able to break the laws of physics over your knee? Because that's what even the most basic cantrip does. Now, there's probably not enough demand to support a wizard in a small village, but given a sufficiently large population, there will be someone who thinks that physics has been getting awfully uppity lately and could stand taking down a peg. On the other hand, there probably won't be someone needing this every day, so the wizard has to charge enough to maintain sufficient wizard-lifestyle given the amount of business he has. In either case, the answer to the question "Is there any reason at All that the ordinary villagers would blow 2 months or more of their pay on one of his spells?" is still no. He's selling spells to nobles, merchants, wandering murderhobos, and other wizards who barred the wrong school.

[Flickerdart]

You and your fellow Productive Villagers are 3rd and 4th lv Experts, You max your appropiate crafting skills and are probably getting a Synergy bonus from one of your other skills as well as a Masterwork crafting tool you saved up half a years pay to buy and an apprentice you get Aid Another bonuses from. All things Said taking 10 on craft checks and selling the result you're Grossing About 6-7GP per week 1/3 of which is going to purchace the raw materials for next weeks craft checks.
That's bad and you should feel bad. Mr. Blackadder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?206240-quot-Opulance-I-has-it-quot-A-look-into-NPC-wealth/page2), a 2nd level expert, makes 33gp profit per week. If he were 4th level (+2 ranks), used the nonelite array (+1 ability mod), and had an apprentice (+2 aid another) that number rises to 50gp. This means that, every week, he can get 5 level 1 spells, or nearly a whole 2nd level spell.

Now, whether or not that's useful. We're interested in Permanent and Instantaneous duration spells, obviously. Continual Flame is a decent first step - 110gp (just over two weeks' income) creates a permanent torch that lasts forever. A luxury good, sure, but a useful one. Extract Drug could be used to score cheap hits of the good stuff. All the really nice stuff is 3rd level, though: Distilled Joy, Improved Arcane Lock, Junglerazer, etc. Don't neglect cantrips, either: Mending and Stick are quite useful.

[Rubik]

Don't neglect cantrips, either: Mending and Stick are quite useful.What's long, hard, and sticky?

-A stick.

[SiuiS]

Are you asking what the benefit is to being able to break the laws of physics over your knee?.

Specifics, not memes, please.

And as a quibble, it doesn't break physics, it breaks real world science in which magic does not exist.


That's bad and you should feel bad. Mr. Blackadder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?206240-quot-Opulance-I-has-it-quot-A-look-into-NPC-wealth/page2), a 2nd level expert, makes 33gp profit per week. If he were 4th level (+2 ranks), used the nonelite array (+1 ability mod), and had an apprentice (+2 aid another) that number rises to 50gp. This means that, every week, he can get 5 level 1 spells, or nearly a whole 2nd level spell.

Now, whether or not that's useful. We're interested in Permanent and Instantaneous duration spells, obviously. Continual Flame is a decent first step - 110gp (just over two weeks' income) creates a permanent torch that lasts forever. A luxury good, sure, but a useful one. Extract Drug could be used to score cheap hits of the good stuff. All the really nice stuff is 3rd level, though: Distilled Joy, Improved Arcane Lock, Junglerazer, etc. Don't neglect cantrips, either: Mending and Stick are quite useful.

One problem; this is gross, not net. How much of that 50 GP can you keep? One third goes to supplies (16 g 6 s 7 c, say), leaving you with "only" 33 g 3 a 4 c. The "commoner lives for a year on 1g" presupposes a bunch of stuff and doesn't seem supported by the rules at all; food a year would be greater than that, you'd need to reduce your crafts/profession time to allow for foraging, and would have to take time off as well for seeing to basic necessities such as fixing your place up, actual human interaction and the like.
There's a fun side project; assuming complete group synergy, how can you make a village work? Division of labor and specific outputs. Will have to look into that.

But no, it doesn't seem like any commoner would spend hard cash on spells. For one, unless you subscribe to the "GP spontaneously appear out of thin air when you roll a check" school of thought, the money has to come from somewhere, which likely means any village only has a set pool of cash that flows in a circle, which means any diversion of funds (like paying a wizard) could really screw everything up for a year or two. For commoners keeping a village running, money is likely to be tight and the economy a carefully calibrated mechanism.

What do you think, Flickerdart? Three first level spells a day sounds nice but you would quickly hit a point where the wizard had all the money and unless he invested in crap like luxury bread loaves or paying a farmer to let his field rot or something, the village would collapse.

[jedipotter]

The Question is, Barring any wandering Murderhobos and their insane needs, Is there any reason at All that the ordinary villagers would blow 2 months or more of their pay on one of his spells? What benefit to the community would they have paying the DMG reccomended cost?


Well, sure? Anyone who had the money would love to get the use of a magic spell. Really...would not you want some magic if you could buy some?

Guess the same question would be: Would you spend two months pay on a item of technology? What would that be, like a big, flat screen TV? A car? A computer? A smart phone?

And it's even better if you go beyond the Core ''combat only'' spells...

[Divide by Zero]

Supply and demand. If you're in the sort of town where you can charge the listed prices for your services, then you're in the sort of town where there's going to be competition from other casters. But if you're the only caster in a small town, it would be pretty easy to run the place - barter your services for room and board, favors, and pretty much anything else the villagers can manage, and you don't have to worry about competing with anyone else.

[SiuiS]

Well, sure? Anyone who had the money would love to get the use of a magic spell. Really...would not you want some magic if you could buy some?

Guess the same question would be: Would you spend two months pay on a item of technology? What would that be, like a big, flat screen TV? A car? A computer? A smart phone?

No, it's not like that at all. Most spells are one and done. It's asking if you would spend two months gross pay and get evicted and starve in order to catch a show opening night on Broadway. Technology you get to keep and re-use and repurpose. A spell? If you could re use and repurpose one, you would already be a caster.

And this is again ignoring the entire body of available works. What level two spell can you conceive of that is anywhere near worth this much money? I could see shelling that out for animate dead for some cheap manual labor forever, but that requires dealing with Orcus.

[Flickerdart]

One problem; this is gross, not net.
Except it isn't. The costs and profits are broken down in the linked thread.

[Sith_Happens]

What's long, hard, and sticky?

-A stick.

Darn, I was sure it was "a soda bottle that overflowed and the soda on the outside dried."

[Telok]

Augury, Arcane Lock, Animal Messenger, Consecrate, Make Whole, Leomund's Trap, Continual Flame, Cure/Vigor spells.

Food and lodging costs are quite variable. A family farm can be completely self supporting while a craftsman in the city may pay rent on his home and shop and have to buy meals on top of that. None of that is well modeled by the crafting rules and price lists.

[DeadMech]

I still maintain that spellcaster service costs should really only be taken literally in the case of wandering murderhobo's. Especially in the case of divine casters. With the exception of spells with component costs.

Random group of heavily armed people come into your town, who you've never seen or heard of before, isn't going to be very trustworthy. Not when every other heavily armed group that comes through is either the king's tax collectors or criminal scum. They come in asking you to use up your daily allotments of spells, meanwhile the one in the corner keeps eying up the most expensive things in the room. They claim they are going to go out and disperse the cave of kobolds or the orc encampment, but really who knows, they'll probably get themselves killed and lead trouble right back to your town.

Meanwhile when Bob comes in telling you that his daughter, Emily, accidentally spilled something on the family's heirloom wedding dress hours before the event, then the local wizard is probably going to at least consider helping them out. Bob's a nice guy, Emily's a nice girl. Maybe you don't want the entire town coming around asking for stuff all the time but this is a big day. As long as Bob doesn't go blabbing and has some of those fresh carrots brought over, then what the hell. I don't generally use up even half my daily spells anyway.

[Slipperychicken]

Let's not forget that Wizards don't need to use spell slots for Ritual spells, nor do they need to prepare them. All it takes is to know the spell and spend 10 minutes plus the original casting time. In theory, a wizard could cast up to ~143 ritual spells in a 24 hour interval (perhaps in the event of some disaster, where a lot of people want Gentle Repose cast on bodies?). Similarly, they have any prepared cantrip at-will (though Prestidigitation is probably of greatest interest to us).

Nevermind. I accidentally thought this was a 5e thread.

[jedipotter]

No, it's not like that at all. Most spells are one and done. It's asking if you would spend two months gross pay and get evicted and starve in order to catch a show opening night on Broadway. Technology you get to keep and re-use and repurpose. A spell? If you could re use and repurpose one, you would already be a caster.

Do you really think that there are some people that won't give up ''everything'' to see a opening night show on Broadway? Or see Avengers 2? Or get like Call of Duty 13? And no one would camp out for weeks to get an iphone 6?



And this is again ignoring the entire body of available works. What level two spell can you conceive of that is anywhere near worth this much money? I could see shelling that out for animate dead for some cheap manual labor forever, but that requires dealing with Orcus.

Augury, Arcane Lock, Make Whole, Leomund's Trap, Continual Flame just in Core. To go beyond Core: Repair Moderate Damage.

Though the real money comes from 3rd level and up spells.....

And don't forget, that unless the spellcaster is like part dragon, they will be spending the money in town too. After a couple spells, they can buy just about any item or service they want...

[Jeff the Green]

Do you really think that there are some people that won't give up ''everything'' to see a opening night show on Broadway? Or see Avengers 2? Or get like Call of Duty 13? And no one would camp out for weeks to get an iphone 6?

Lessee. US median income is around $50,000. Two months' pay would be $8300. No, I'm fairly sure I wouldn't pay that much to see a movie or play or buy really most any technology that doesn't involve an internal combustion engine. A movie ticket at my local theater is $11, which means that even in a minimum wage job I'd have to work an hour and 15 minutes to earn the money to see Avengers 2.

(Plus remember that the disposable part of $50,000/year is a lot bigger than the disposable part of a peasant's income. The ingredients for three common meals a day for one person are 109.5 GP on the low end. Assuming Mr. Blackadder-Who-Earns-33 GP-A-Week has a wife and four kids he spends 38% of his income on food.)


To go beyond Core: Repair Moderate Damage.

So... your villages have lots of problems with damaged golems, then? :smallconfused:

[Bullet06320]

magic missle squirrel hunting, prestidigitation to taste, never starve again

[Rubik]

magic missle squirrel hunting, prestidigitation to taste, never starve again"Oh! Hello, Mr. Scurvy."

[jedipotter]

Lessee. US median income is around $50,000. Two months' pay would be $8300. No, I'm fairly sure I wouldn't pay that much to see a movie or play or buy really most any technology that doesn't involve an internal combustion engine. A movie ticket at my local theater is $11, which means that even in a minimum wage job I'd have to work an hour and 15 minutes to earn the money to see Avengers 2.

It is not really accurate to compare D&D to real life....but your ''US person'' is more the high cost experts, merchants and even the spellcaster themselves, not the commoners, warriors and low end experts.

[Jeff the Green]

It is not really accurate to compare D&D to real life....but your ''US person'' is more the high cost experts, merchants and even the spellcaster themselves, not the commoners, warriors and low end experts.

...That's the point. We have far more disposable income than commoners in D&D and few would pay two months' pay for a one-time experience.

[Bullet06320]

"Oh! Hello, Mr. Scurvy."

LOL, in the real world yes, in the D&D world I don't recall ever seeing rules for malnutrition

[Flickerdart]

"Oh! Hello, Mr. Scurvy."
Everyone knows that squirrels are actually a citrus.

[SiuiS]

Except it isn't. The costs and profits are broken down in the linked thread.

Ah, I mistook the link for something else.

Welp, that's pretty solid then. Although we lost track somewhere.


Augury, Arcane Lock, Animal Messenger, Consecrate, Make Whole, Leomund's Trap, Continual Flame, Cure/Vigor spells.

Ah, a lot of those are actually good points; things you don't need all the time or even fairly often but definitely need when you need them. Cure and vigor, though? All you really need for most folks is enough to get cure minor wounds as a styptic. Working class people are less likely to get medical attention for non-fatal wounds and more likely to double their morning aspirin dose and just get to work the next day.


Food and lodging costs are quite variable. A family farm can be completely self supporting while a craftsman in the city may pay rent on his home and shop and have to buy meals on top of that. None of that is well modeled by the crafting rules and price lists.

Yeah. The basic principle is kinda hard to grasp... Although I can say with a bit of certainty that of they're affording rent in a city, they probably are experts, not commoners.


Do you really think that there are some people that won't give up ''everything'' to see a opening night show on Broadway? Or see Avengers 2? Or get like Call of Duty 13? And no one would camp out for weeks to get an iphone 6?

Yes, I really believe that most people are not statistical outliers.

The people you want to look at for a parallel are not the people in line for avengers with $3.50 frappuccinos, you want to look at itinerants and homeless. And yes, I'm positive they aren't going to starve for the next few months to get an iPhone six.



Augury, Arcane Lock, Make Whole, Leomund's Trap, Continual Flame just in Core. To go beyond Core: Repair Moderate Damage.

Continual flame costs an extra 50G, that's pretty hefty for a forty foot circle that's indistinguishable from the forty foot irc le you already had... A luxury item you'd find in cities and garrisons, not in any ol' commoner's shed.


Though the real money comes from 3rd level and up spells.....

We aren't worried about how much the wizard can make. We're worried about what people can afford.


magic missle squirrel hunting, prestidigitation to taste, never starve again

That's a lot of money for a single meal; it's a half a week's pay.


LOL, in the real world yes, in the D&D world I don't recall ever seeing rules for malnutrition

Privation is spread out across a few books. I think it primarily focuses on the starvation and thirst rules.

However, it's explicit that things like this still happen even if not written down, the game world follows real world logic until the rules need to be called in (not the rules run constantly and RL logic fills the gaps), and diseases are not limited to those listed, the DM should apply more as necessary.

[Aracor]

Lessee. US median income is around $50,000. Two months' pay would be $8300. No, I'm fairly sure I wouldn't pay that much to see a movie or play or buy really most any technology that doesn't involve an internal combustion engine. A movie ticket at my local theater is $11, which means that even in a minimum wage job I'd have to work an hour and 15 minutes to earn the money to see Avengers 2.

Keep in mind that most spells (simply based upon the price compared to income) are luxury items. Instead of comparing them to seeing a movie, compare it to luxury experiences, like going on a week-long cruise through the Panama Canal, or an engagement ring for your sweetheart. That's the kind of stuff that people DO spend a month or more worth of income on, and the vacation even still qualifies as a rather fleeting experience rather than an electronic that you can use and repurpose to your heart's content until it breaks.

~Aracor

[Flickerdart]

Keep in mind that most spells (simply based upon the price compared to income) are luxury items. Instead of comparing them to seeing a movie, compare it to luxury experiences, like going on a week-long cruise through the Panama Canal, or an engagement ring for your sweetheart. That's the kind of stuff that people DO spend a month or more worth of income on, and the vacation even still qualifies as a rather fleeting experience rather than an electronic that you can use and repurpose to your heart's content until it breaks.

~Aracor
Unfortunately (aside from Extract Drug) low level spells don't really offer that level of luxury.

[Vogonjeltz]

Continual Flame is a decent first step - 110gp (just over two weeks' income) creates a permanent torch that lasts forever.

"How can you make two months'weeks salary last forever?"

Ahem.

[jedipotter]

"How can you make two months'weeks salary last forever?"

Ahem.


Oh..wait! This sounds like a commercial for Diamonds! From DeDwarf, the Forever Diamond! Pure shinny diamond with continual flame! Cue dancing shadows of happy couples!

[VoxRationis]

I still maintain that spellcaster service costs should really only be taken literally in the case of wandering murderhobo's. Especially in the case of divine casters. With the exception of spells with component costs.

Random group of heavily armed people come into your town, who you've never seen or heard of before, isn't going to be very trustworthy. Not when every other heavily armed group that comes through is either the king's tax collectors or criminal scum. They come in asking you to use up your daily allotments of spells, meanwhile the one in the corner keeps eying up the most expensive things in the room. They claim they are going to go out and disperse the cave of kobolds or the orc encampment, but really who knows, they'll probably get themselves killed and lead trouble right back to your town.

Meanwhile when Bob comes in telling you that his daughter, Emily, accidentally spilled something on the family's heirloom wedding dress hours before the event, then the local wizard is probably going to at least consider helping them out. Bob's a nice guy, Emily's a nice girl. Maybe you don't want the entire town coming around asking for stuff all the time but this is a big day. As long as Bob doesn't go blabbing and has some of those fresh carrots brought over, then what the hell. I don't generally use up even half my daily spells anyway.

This is an excellent point. Keep in mind that it costs a wizard practically nothing, even in terms of opportunity cost, to cast a spell he had prepared anyway. The inflated prices are probably a deterrent more than anything else, meant to keep all but the inordinately rich (whom the wizard doesn't mind price-gouging) away. A community-centered spellcaster is probably going to do a fair amount of pro bono work when the situation calls for it; it's just that they don't want to be hounded with supplication every moment of their waking lives.

[Rubik]

Unfortunately (aside from Extract Drug) low level spells don't really offer that level of luxury.Not even Grease?

[SiuiS]

Alright, I'm convinced. I mean, of course people are going to spend lots of cash on novelty magic; else how would we Dominic Deegan?


Not even Grease?

Not for one round per level.

[Vogonjeltz]

Not even Grease?

Doesn't last long enough!
*bah ninja action by siuis

[Grinner]

"How can you make two months'weeks salary last forever?"

Ahem.

This is a good point. Does Continual Flame produce heat? If so, you've just solved the problem of your heating bill, provided you don't burn down the house in the process.

[Flickerdart]

This is a good point. Does Continual Flame produce heat? If so, you've just solved the problem of your heating bill, provided you don't burn down the house in the process.
That one's easy.

"The effect looks like a regular flame, but it creates no heat and doesn't use oxygen."

[Blackhawk748]

This is a good point. Does Continual Flame produce heat? If so, you've just solved the problem of your heating bill, provided you don't burn down the house in the process.

Though Stronghold Builders Guide does say that they use permanenced Walls of Fire and a few vents to make a furnace. Granted that that is a huge investment but you never need to buy fuel again.

[Bullet06320]

That's a lot of money for a single meal; it's a half a week's pay.
actually I was thinking from the other prospective when I wrote it, Billy Bob the redneck wizard going down to the crik to plink squirrels with magic missles. getting dinner the fun way after a few jugs of the good stuff.



for special occasions, say a wedding or similar, hiring a few castings of unseen servant and similar to help out with cleaning, serving, etc. just to make the special day that much easier to deal with for the caterers