Got the fluff, can't find the class: (ie character creation help)

[MrUberGr]

....."We'll just see about that" he mutters as he turns around leaving behind excavations officer. He puls his hood over his face. The midday sun scorches his skin. He doubs he'll ever get used to it.

He couldn't get the rumor out of his head. "The tip of Apollo's Spear" He just had to get into the ruin, and some pesky guards and an archaeologist weren't going to get in his way. He would return that night with his company, to do the deed........



So, we're starting our 5e campaign. Hip hip hurray for half hour battles! After those 2-3 hour encouters of 4, these are incredible!

Now, I was having a bit of trouble on what to play. I wasn't really in the mood for my usuals, wizard, fighter, ranger etc etc, and I was trying to figure what to play. A few days later I've narrowed it down to this:
Dungeon Delves, Artifact Acquisitions, and Grand Schemes. Basically, a con artist with taste for old and powerful artifacts. Not necessarily in dungeons. Might as well be in a Noble's House. I think you're seeing where I'm getting at by now. My char wouldn't be your typical thief who would break in take coin and some other valuables. He would try and find out where good loot is. His services would be up for hire ofcourse.

My problem is that I cannot decide which class is best for this. Obviously Rogue is the first thing that comes in mind, with Thief archetype shining out. What I don't like is the fact that he is 95% mundane, besides the "Use Magic Device". I've always enjoyed a spark of magic in my characters. Maybe multiclass to some charisma caster? Primary weapon choice: Dual Hand Crossbow (just noting it)

My second option would be warlock. I really like their flavor and they would seem more appropriate as someone who would constantly be looking for new means of power. My hesitation about this choice, is his survivability. Never having played a warlock, he seems as a "in yo face" kind of class, and, being a caster makes me a bit unconfident. :smallannoyed: The mage armor invocation is certainly a big boost to this, but still. Also, he's obvious not as good skill-wise as the rogue.

While reading and writing this, I'm leaning towards rogue. Possibly 17|3 rogue|warlock for the touch of magic I like? Though warlock has very little at level 3, the pact weapon could come in handy. My ability points would probably be in Dex, for combat and AC, and Cha for out of combat. Con comes third. Probably a [15, 15, 14, 10, 8, 8] setup?

I'd really like to hear your opinions on this, as I'm having a hard time deciding. Also, some race suggestions would be welcome. As you can see, the rp is written as a drow since I really like them. Plus, the points are where they are needed, plus hand crossbows!!! The sun sensitivity is a bit off-putting though. Can't have it all I guess.

[Human Paragon 3]

I like the concept! The drow part is cool, and it sounds interesting to work around the restriction, but if you don't mind dumping drow, my suggestion would be to go Warlock with a Criminal background and be a human to get Tough (+2 hp/level). That should greatly boost your survivability.

Barring that, have you considered Bard? You'll have all the skills you could ever want, plenty of magic, cha synergy with the Drow, and class features that help you find valuable artifacts. You could take the Sage background which gives you the ability to find any artifact in the world by researching it, and since bard offers any skill, you don't need to use your background to get the thief skills. You don't get thieves tools, unfortunately, so maybe criminal background would still be needed, but Bard is a good knowledgeable class.

If it's the music thing that bothers you, you could re-write the fluff a little. Maybe the first artifiact you found was a magic flute that gave you your powers?

Or maybe you sing ancient drow mystic poetry to alter reality or something. Whatever. Bard is probably the strongest choice for your concept.

[Grayson01]

Have you thought about Bard? That kinda sounds right up there ally. Be Half-Elf so you can pick up 2 additional Skill Proffs for agrand total of 5, with three instruments. You get Hand crossbow Proff as well. You have Jack of All trades which helps with the I am an amazing Con-artest/artifact theif. If you go with the College of Lore you add 3 more skills, Cutting word will help with that Con-artest roll (as well as CHA being you main stat). If you Go Valor you would be a much better combattant, but I think Lore is more fitting. Now you all so add in the benfit of full casting Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Comp Language (for reading tombs you find about loot), CHarm Person (con tool), Detect Magic for finding magic loot), Feather Fall, Identify (again loot), Detect Thoughts (again Con), Enthrall, KNock (again for gettingt o loot), Locate Object (again Loot) , Major Image (great for a con) Speak with Dead (hey might have to ask teh dead baout looy), Dominate person, Geas, Legend lore, Modify memory (really great for a Con), Scrying, True Seeing, GLIBNESS!!!!, Mind Blank, Forsight.

Now I am never usally one to say don't go Rouge they are my favorite calss in every addition. However I think this might give you what you are looking for.

Human Par beat me to it

[MrUberGr]

HAHAHA! I guess bard is a good option. To be honest, I didn't even read the class. Elan has ruined it! :smallbiggrin:

I was pretty decided on the background. Charlatan seems a solid choice due to the Forgery Kit ("go about your business, I have the kings permission to be in here"), Skills (Deception and Sleight of Hand), and the False Identity feature.

[Grayson01]

Yeah Bard with the Charlatan background will be perfect for you. You will have all the skills you need, and if you go half-elf you can roll play it as your half-drow elf so you still get that if you want.

[MrUberGr]

Oh my... If I show up with a bard charlatan I won't hear the end of it from my group! Charlatan in Greek literally means "fool". It used to mean "jester" but now it's plain old dumb fool! :smallbiggrin: I will have to read up on the bard and return here. And the bard, well, he's the bard.:smalltongue:

[Human Paragon 3]

I would recommend bard with the criminal background. Bard doesn't get proficiency in thieves tools, so if you ever want to pick a lock or disarm a trap, you need rogue or a background that grants the proficiency.

Or the time and money to buy training in the tool.


And the bard, well, he's the bard.:smalltongue:

Do not doubt the power of the 5th edition bard! 9th level casting, proficiency in ANY skills, the ability to poach spells off others' lists or gain extra attack. Inspiration is even cool now (no more reminding people to count your +1).

One other thought... Rogue with the arcane trickster archetype. Magic rogue. There you have it. Race and background barely matter at that point.

[Yorrin]

While Bard is certainly a viable (and powerful) choice, your original build is also a pretty good one. Rogue/Warlock multiclass pretty well with each other, except for the fact that sneak attack can't be used with spells. But a Blade-lock has plenty of potential tanky-ness with the right invocations (and infernal pact). False Life, Armor of Shadows, etc.

[SaintRidley]

Yeah, either Bard or Rogue/Warlock, Charlatan or Criminal (or maybe ask if you can blend the two a bit) background.

And yeah, it's no surprise "charlatan" means that in Greek. We took it from Italian and French a few hundred years back, and you guys got it from Italian. It got specialized to mean a quack then morphed to someone who sells false remedies (both uses deriving from its initial meaning of a babbler and fool).

[Grayson01]

I would recommend bard with the criminal background. Bard doesn't get proficiency in thieves tools, so if you ever want to pick a lock or disarm a trap, you need rogue or a background that grants the proficiency.

Or the time and money to buy training in the tool.

That is a very good point, all though I think the Proff in Disquise Kit and Forgery Kit might be better off in the long run once he gets Knock.

However the False Identity might not be as good as the Criminal Contact.

Also Disguise Self you get pretty early so it's a bit of a toss up of which is going to pay off more.

[Aramis Rhett]

The half drow idea is wicked and never once occured to me to go as far as what subrace of elf to be. I don't know how the drow are in the campaign setting you would be in (if you were even in drow lands), but they would probably be as liable to kill you (just for being a half-drow) as they would to look at you. Maybe that didn't come out right, but I think you'll get my meaning. But a half-drow on the surface world (unless you can play off your skin tone by claiming it is from your human parent) would be another hiccup. Overall, I love the thought in this thread. Sweet out of the box thinking.

[MrUberGr]

"Customizing a Background" Pretty much gives you the freedom to mix and match, so I can get A and B skill (or languages), forgery and thieves tools , and criminal contact or false identity.


The half drow idea is wicked and never once occured to me to go as far as what subrace of elf to be.

Indeed. When I read it, at first I was like "huh?" but then it dawned on me! Great idea.

[Slipperychicken]

Variant Human Rogue, with a feat in Magic Initiate. Take Ritual Caster later on.

[mabriss lethe]

Another possibility would be to go Way of Shadow Monk, probably with criminal background. You get the right sort of tool and skill proficiencies, plus access to a host of very useful stealth and movement based magical effects.

[MustacheFart]

Another possibility would be to go Way of Shadow Monk, probably with criminal background. You get the right sort of tool and skill proficiencies, plus access to a host of very useful stealth and movement based magical effects.

Someone beat me to it, haha.

I agree that the bard would fit nicely but in case you're not completely feeling that or want something a bit more ninja-esque while still magical then I would suggest Way of the Shadow Monk. It can actually be multiclassed with warlock pretty well--either blade lock or chain lock for that invisible loyal imp scout. Keep in mind that the blade lock has the advantage of sneaking in hands free, not having to worry about carrying a weapon but then able to summon it immediately if needed. You can also then toss in some rogue levels for good measure.

[Inevitability]

Arcane Trickster seems to be exactly what you want. That or variant human with Magical Initiate.

[MrUberGr]

So, a small review:

Class
Bard: pros: Skill monkey, Cha based, magic etc. cons: Bard, no idea how, or what, he does in combat, College of Lore pursuits beauty and truth? Seriously? :smallbiggrin:
Arcane Trickster: pros: Magic cons:nothing specific really
Thief: pros:Cool features cons: no magic
Thief|Warlock: pros:combines stealths and magic features cons:no idea how to build the character! :smallbiggrin:

Race
I guess that it's Drow, unless I go bard. I really want to have the hand crossbow!

Background
Homemade mix between charlatan and criminal. Although, I'm not sure Criminal Contact will be that usefull.

Could someone help a bit with details on how to make the Rogue|Warlock? How to split the levels, when to get them etc?

[Beige]

Bard: pros: Skill monkey, Cha based, magic etc. cons: Bard, no idea how, or what, he does in combat, College of Lore pursuits beauty and truth? Seriously? :smallbiggrin:

your a full caster with access to pretty much all Illusion and Enchantment spells, a nice selection of all other schools, and the ability to get any 6 additional spells from any spell list you want or match the paladin/ranger for number of attacks, access to some pretty funky cantrips and the ability to throw around a few extra dice for everyone and you're wondering what you can do in combat... :smalltongue:

the answer there is pretty much anything you want :smalltongue:


Arcane Trickster: pros: Magic cons:nothing specific really

Taking two hand crossbows would require the warcaster feat to cast with a weapon in both hands, and the crossbow mastery feat to be able to dual wield them (otherwise it's light melee only). Also, arcane trickster's magic is watered down bard, and sneak attacks not the most relaible, though it is fun XD


Thief|Warlock: pros:combines stealths and magic features cons:no idea how to build the character! :smallbiggrin:

take eldtrich blast, feel sad you can't sneak attack with spells. then zip around - as for building,
I'd reccomend either old one or fey for pact master - fey for the power of friendship and a few extra bits of enchantment, old one for telepathy etc. Take the invocations that sound the best for your character type and away you go (and devil sight for a half-elf would simulate drow heritage pretty well :smallamused:)

also, for your consideration, Thief/Bard - gets you some of the thief features, and 6 levels of bard will match the arcane trickster's spellcasting. plus, jack of all trades and two doses of expertise makes you not a skill monkey, but a skill-gorilla :smallamused:


Race
I guess that it's Drow, unless I go bard. I really want to have the hand crossbow!

don't forget rogue has proficiency in the hand crossbow as well to expand your options XD


Background
Homemade mix between charlatan and criminal. Although, I'm not sure Criminal Contact will be that usefull.

how useful criminal contact is depends on your DM - it can be great have a contact to inform you of artifacts being moved/poor security etc, as well as to fence off your stuff or a place to lie low in bad times. but yeah, it's entierly DM dependant.

[VoxRationis]

Yeah, the bard is now a full spellcaster with a bunch of abilities on the side; only a limited spell list keeps them from being better than the wizard. Although I seem to remember a startling number of spells got moved into the bard spell list...

[Xhosant]

If you can get your hands on a PHB, there are 2 feats (that I know of) that could grant you magic: a 'get a full-fledged, ritual-only spellbook' one(Ritual Caster, was it?), and a 'here's 2 cantrips and a lvl1, 1/day spell'(Magic initiate).

[MrUberGr]

the answer there is pretty much anything you want :smalltongue:

I don't know the playstyle, since noone in our group has ever played a bard. for example, do you have to have a musical instrument in your hand to cast a spell?



Taking two hand crossbows would require the warcaster feat to cast with a weapon in both hands, and the crossbow mastery feat to be able to dual wield them (otherwise it's light melee only).

Why would it require crossbow mastery?

how useful criminal contact is depends on your DM - it can be great have a contact to inform you of artifacts being moved/poor security etc, as well as to fence off your stuff or a place to lie low in bad times. but yeah, it's entierly DM dependant.
I do believe that our DM won't use it so much. He generally does that, not letting us use everything available, (or at least giving us a hard time with it).


Yeah, the bard is now a full spellcaster with a bunch of abilities on the side; only a limited spell list keeps them from being better than the wizard. Although I seem to remember a startling number of spells got moved into the bard spell list...
And a bit limited spell slots.


If you can get your hands on a PHB, there are 2 feats (that I know of) that could grant you magic: a 'get a full-fledged, ritual-only spellbook' one(Ritual Caster, was it?), and a 'here's 2 cantrips and a lvl1, 1/day spell'(Magic initiate).
The magic initiate I don't really like. IMOone of the worst feats. The ritual caster... which spells are rituals? ^^ Skimming through the spells I hadn't noticed some spell with the ritual tag.

[MustacheFart]

The fact that Magic Initiate can get you eldritch blast, one of the best if not the best cantrips around, is reason enough for it being a decent feat.

[MrUberGr]

The 1st level spell should be more flexible:

option to retrain to a different 1st level spell at some point
cast at a higher level spell slot according to your level
retrain to a higher level spell
learn a few 1st level spells, but prepare/use only one per day

[Slipperychicken]

The magic initiate I don't really like. IMOone of the worst feats. The ritual caster... which spells are rituals? ^^ Skimming through the spells I hadn't noticed some spell with the ritual tag.

Here's a list (http://gloomtrain.blogspot.com/2014/08/type-5-ritual-lists.html).

[Daehron]

I don't know the playstyle, since noone in our group has ever played a bard. for example, do you have to have a musical instrument in your hand to cast a spell?

Bards *can* use their musical instrument as a component pouch to satisfy the material component requirement of their spells. It's not a requirement, just an additional option.


And a bit limited spell slots.
Bards have the same spell slots as a wizard, but fewer spells known. Taking the Ritual Caster (Wizard) feat narrows the gap significantly, and the College of Lore bonus spells from any spell list adds some additional flavor.



The magic initiate I don't really like. IMOone of the worst feats. The ritual caster... which spells are rituals? ^^ Skimming through the spells I hadn't noticed some spell with the ritual tag.

I have reservations on the usefulness of the Magic Initiate feat - it has it's place, but a couple cantrips and one 1st level spell for a feat, one dip into a caster class net's more than that, at a different opportunity cost, but anyways.

Ritual Caster is a near requirement in my concept of any Bard / Sorcerer / (non-Pact of the Tome) Warlock. It greatly increases the utility of the spontaneous spell casters. Important first level rituals: Identify, Find Familiar, Detect Magic, Comprehend Languages. Later you get more powerful spells as well.

Combining Half-Elf with Bard you get the most amount of available skills, add Jack-of-All-Trades, plus expertise, you'd be competent at almost every skill check.

As for background: imagine a scholarly bard, grab elements of the sage background (Arcana, History perhaps), but toss elements of either criminal or urchin background (Thieves tools vs 2nd language) and pick from either for Bonds etc. I like a spy concept more. A lot like the Leliana or Marjolaine characters in Dragon Age. Bards (a rogue specialization) who use guile, wit, burglary, and Bardish awesome-sauce as spies in the politics of the noble classes. Only a little reworking to make your character into magic artifact hunters.

[togapika]

I second Arcane Trickster Rogue

[MrUberGr]

Well, the bard and the spell thief are pretty straightforward, and tbh, if he wasn't named bard I might had already created my character! :smallredface: Could we look into the Warlock/thief for a bit?

I've thought of the following combinations:

5R/15W: Nice thief features, and most of the warlock's features. What' you're missing out from the warlock is the 9th level spell, and the spell slot refresh. Plus, assuming 20 Dex, you'd be having 17+2 from the invocation = 19 armor, and 1.5HP (uncanny dodge) (does u.d. work on stuff that don't require an attack roll on the enemy's part as well?)

13R/7W: pretty much all but the best of the thief's features. 3 cantrips, 8 spells, 4 invocations (defensive buff, eldritch blast and pact blade bonuses) and 2 pact features. Going 14R would give blindsense 10 but 1 invocation less, which can be crucial.

Opinions?

[Ramshack]

I have to admit I like 17 warlock, 3 rogue on this one, with the Charliton background or Sage

Thieves Cant and Cunning Action (amazing to disengage, move and blast)

Take the thief route for dex checks and UMD as a bonus action, or the arcane trickster route to use thieves tools and sleight of hand with your mage hand spell

Take the Fiend Pact so you get temporary HP every time you drop an enemy

With Invocations I immediately thought of magic eyes,

Take the one that lets you see in both normal and magical darkness and lets you cast detect magic at will, perfect for a dungeon delving, magic item finding warlock

Also take the false life invocation for even more Temp HP when starting a Fight, Agonizing blast for cha to Eldritch Blast and eventually invocation that lets you become invisible in darkness, there is also an invocation that gives you proficiency in 2 skills.

I'd take human since you're going to get darkvision via the invocation anyway and you can use the Feat for something like observant, dungeon delver, battlecaster, tough, alert etc.

Plus all the natural blastyness of a warlock

All these give a very diverse and tactical character and I feel with the right invocations you can really capture the Magic Finding Archeologist Niche.

[MrUberGr]

Well, the Bard can do anything but damage as it seems. Due to some recent party changes and one person being the hardest loafer to find, we are: DM, paladin, me. And basically can't afford a skill monkey atm. His spell list is nice, but really all about utility.

The warlock on the other had is all about damage. Damnit, I can't get a break!:smallannoyed: