Observant Feat

[Doomchild]

What the heck is Passive Investigation? As far as I know it's not mentioned in the rules anywhere but in the text of the Observant feat. How does it work? Does it work at all?

[archaeo]

What the heck is Passive Investigation? As far as I know it's not mentioned in the rules anywhere but in the text of the Observant feat. How does it work? Does it work at all?

The rules for passive checks appear on page 175 of the PHB, and are written generally; your passive score for any given ability is the ability modifier and associated bonuses/proficiencies + 10. However, the only examples given of the mechanics in use feature passive perception.

It's possible the DMG will have more detailed rules for exploration, probably using passive checks used to speed play. In the meantime, it's mostly just a tool that lets the DM decide which side of the screen the RNG is happening. A passive investigation check might represent an NPC's ability to hide some telling detail, or you might use it to represent a split-second glance at some dungeon feature before it disappears behind a horde of monsters.

I'd probably also just let any character that took Observant auto-find or auto-discover anything where the DC is less than the passive score. Really, the inclusion of passive checks as a general mechanic could be used for a lot of streamlining, should an active DM want to do it. But the character sheet design and the PHB's examples tend to lead away from that, probably because most DMs and players will be used to rolling for ability checks.

[eastmabl]

Players Handbook, page 175. "Passive Checks."

Presumably, a passive Investigation check would be your ability to search for clues and make deductions when you don't exactly know what you're looking for. Imagine reading through the newspaper, and linking together two news articles that helps you solve a murder case while you're in your bath robe and sipping your coffee.

Your +5 bonus from the feat becomes the equivalent of having advantage on the rolls, except you can still get advantage from some other fact or circumstance.

[Falka]

I houserule it as having Advantage for Investigation checks, since most of "passive" checks regarding clues, I tend to ask for a Perception check.

[Doomchild]

Hmm. So the general consensus I'm getting (from here and around the internet) is that Passive checks other than Perception only work in whatever ways, if any, that the DM interprets them to. Kind of unsatisfying, but I guess if that's all we've got, that's all we've got. Hopefully the DMG clears that up. In two months...

[Sartharina]

I houserule it as having Advantage for Investigation checks, since most of "passive" checks regarding clues, I tend to ask for a Perception check.

Why do you use the completely wrong skill for the task?

[Falka]

Why do you use the completely wrong skill for the task?

Because when you just happen to percieve something you're not actually looking for, it's a Perception/Spot/Listen check? If you are going to include a Passive Investigation value, what's the point on the Perception active roll?

Whereas Investigation/Search is more about actively searching for something, or clues in a scene/room.

[Grey Watcher]

Well, a lot of illusions in 5e use Intelligence (Investigation) to disbelieve, so I have a feeling that's what they had in mind (since otherwise Investigation is usually an active thing, like 3E's Search).

[Falka]

Well, a lot of illusions in 5e use Intelligence (Investigation) to disbelieve, so I have a feeling that's what they had in mind (since otherwise Investigation is usually an active thing, like 3E's Search).

Oh, that's a good one. So you could use the passive value to make someone disbelieve an illusion? Never thought about that.

[Grey Watcher]

Oh, that's a good one. So you could use the passive value to make someone disbelieve an illusion? Never thought about that.

Yeah, but it's really the only use for Passive Investigation that I can think of that isn't a really specific corner case. For example, if the PCs had a formal place im a larger organization like an army or a spy network, I might, as a DM, use Passive Investigation to see if they notice irregularities (ie plot hooks) in their routine paperwork, but, again, that's a not exactly a typical campaign setup.

[Doomchild]

Good thought, Grey Watcher! Would you say that makes Observant more powerful than otherwise thought? A very strong defense against illusions "figments" (in some cases outright immunity) is awesome in addition to the rest of the package.

EDIT: Going through, though, I've noticed that in all entries it mentions that if a creature spends its action using Investigation, so that seems to rule out any "Passive Investigation" attempts to disbelieve illusions.

[Gnomes2169]

That + Rogue with high int and expertise = ... Wow. An illusion needs to hit DC 33 to force that rogue to even roll. O-o

[Grey Watcher]

Oh, that's a good one. So you could use the passive value to make someone disbelieve an illusion? Never thought about that.


Good thought, Grey Watcher! Would you say that makes Observant a lot more powerful than otherwise thought? A very strong defense against illusions (in some cases outright immunity) is awesome in addition to the rest of the package.

OK, going back and rereading a few of the relevant spell descriptions, it specifically says that a creature can use its action to make an Intelligence (Investigation) check to see if it's an illusion, which, by a strict interpretation of RAW, suggests the Observant feat doesn't help with illusions after all?

I dunno, as a DM, I'd rule it that Passive Investigation does work against illusions, but it looks like, technically, that's a houserule?

[Sartharina]

OK, going back and rereading a few of the relevant spell descriptions, it specifically says that a creature can use its action to make an Intelligence (Investigation) check to see if it's an illusion, which, by a strict interpretation of RAW, suggests the Observant feat doesn't help with illusions after all?

I dunno, as a DM, I'd rule it that Passive Investigation does work against illusions, but it looks like, technically, that's a houserule?

The problem is that doing so makes "Passive Investigation" essentially Skill Mastery. I see it more as 'passively putting clues together".
Something to dump into the "I cannot do while playing" thread:
*Characters with the 'Observant" feat do not hallucinate blue paw prints on objects.

[TheCrowing1432]

You would have to roll for something like an illusion spell, since thats an active effect.

[Ramshack]

You would have to roll for something like an illusion spell, since thats an active effect.

I don't know, stealth is an active effect and passive perception can notice that.

Passive Investigation can be seeing the illusion and maybe notice the fold of cloth doesn't react naturally as it rolls over a stone or step, or maybe the sound doesn't sync or something minute. And you just realize from your passive puzzle solving that something is off naturally even without looking for it.

It's like in house when at the end of every episode he orders bubble gum and reads the package that contains an ingredient that just happened to be the poison that afflicting his patient.

[Snails]

Because when you just happen to percieve something you're not actually looking for, it's a Perception/Spot/Listen check? If you are going to include a Passive Investigation value, what's the point on the Perception active roll?

Whereas Investigation/Search is more about actively searching for something, or clues in a scene/room.

I think the point of Passive Investigation is you get some of the clues a character could normally only get by declaring an active search. For example, you might notice a false bottom in a drawer when you PC was only scooping up the papers. Or you walk into a room and notice that the wall over there is of slightly different construction than the other three (implying that this room might have been subdivided and there may be something behind that wall) without asking the DM for a detailed description.

If you have proficiency and a high Int, this becomes the spiritual equivalent of 1e "I am an elf and I see secret doors". Only being 5e, the designers do not quite spell any of this out for you.

[Doomchild]

Passive Investigation can be seeing the illusion and maybe notice the fold of cloth doesn't react naturally as it rolls over a stone or step, or maybe the sound doesn't sync or something minute. And you just realize from your passive puzzle solving that something is off naturally even without looking for it.

But it definitely doesn't seem to work that way, because the spells indicate that you have to spend your action to disbelieve them if you choose to use the Investigation spell.