What are the best magical enchantments for shuriken?

[fishyfishyfishy]

I have a NPC that's going to be flinging a bunch of shuriken at my party so I'm trying to figure out some good enhancements to put on them. I want to have a few different kinds available and this person has a generous budget.

[Zirconia]

Spell Storing. For the cost of one +2 enhancement (+1 minimum bonus and Spell Storing, which is another +1) have 50 different effects available, including things he can't cast himself, since Shuriken count as ammunition and you enchant a batch of 50. Look here for ideas;

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?188339-D-amp-D-3-5-Best-non-touch-spells-for-Spell-Storing-weapon

If your NPC can buy them in batches of less than 50, pick up an Eager Warning one to make sure he wins initiative and can throw plenty before the party acts.

[defiantdan]

The cool thing about Shurikens is they don't have to be thrown. Check out this guide to enchanting Shurikens: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10419

[Swaoeaeieu]

sizing.

Activation is a swift action. trow a normal shuriken, say the word and a gigantic spinning blades comes flying at the party. Fun times ahead.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Very good suggestions. I'll definitely use spell storing! That thread has lots of great spells to use too! Thanks a bunch.

[VoxRationis]

I'm not exactly on par with the best theoretical optimizers found here, but bane could be useful if you have reasonable confidence in predicting what you're going to fight. The flat damage boost, I'd argue, is a good way to compensate for the fact that the shuriken has an abysmal damage die.

[Curmudgeon]

Spell Storing.
That doesn't work.
Spell Storing

A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. (The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action.) Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires.

You're not wielding a weapon after you throw it.
The shuriken is destroyed on impact, losing the Spell Storing property.
Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them and what happens to them after they are thrown.
Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.
Magic items, unless otherwise noted, take damage as nonmagical items of the same sort. A damaged magic item continues to function, but if it is destroyed, all its magical power is lost.


sizing.

Activation is a swift action. trow a normal shuriken, say the word and a gigantic spinning blades comes flying at the party. Fun times ahead.
Command word magic items only function when attended. Once you throw a shuriken, it's no longer attended and you can't command its magic. (That's a good thing in general. Otherwise, your enemies could command your Sizing weapons to become Colossal, immobilizing you with a load exceeding your heavy limit.)

[Snowbluff]

Morphing. Shuriken are enhanced individually (as ammo). As such, a shuriken could be a an expensive kukri for a portion (1/50) of the cost, as shown above.

With that in mind, I have no idea what happens to range only options when you do this. What if I took a Morphing Seeking Shuriken, and made it into a dagger? Daggers are able to be thrown, and therefore the enhancement is valid. Now, what happens to a kukri?

Now, for a non-broken set, I would say Magebane is excellent. Distance would nice, as well.

[mashlagoo1982]

That doesn't work.

The shuriken is destroyed on impact, losing the Spell Storing property.




Probably not the best use... but perhaps this interaction would work with Explosive Rune.

Because the shuriken is destroyed upon impact, it could probably be taken that the rune is also destroyed... thus setting it off.

[Curmudgeon]

... Explosive Rune.

Because the shuriken is destroyed upon impact, it could probably be taken that the rune is also destroyed... thus setting it off.
How do you get that? Exploding when destroyed isn't in the Explosive Runes spell description. That only happens when they're read, or when attempting to dispel or erase the runes and failing to do so.

[Uncle Pine]

Elemental Power shuriken: summoning an elder elemental once per day as a standard action for 17 rounds for less than 2k? Sign me in.

Spellblade shuriken: immunity to a single spell and the ability to redirect it back to the caster as a free action? 166 gp for a single spell, +120 for each additional spell. Get some of these keyed off two or three of the spells the Wizard uses most and have him have a taste of his own medicine once in a while!

Flying shuriken: who needs to invent helicopters when a shuriken can lift you in the air for 50 minutes three times a day for about 300 gp?

[Mr Adventurer]

Isn't Elemental Power a synergy ability?

[fishyfishyfishy]

The spell storing thing is something I wouldn't mind allowing a player to use,despite the strict RAW preventing that. Good thing I'm the DM. I'll just not go crazy with it and stick to some basic spells like shocking grasp.

Elder elementals are another story...that's a bit much...

[Uncle Pine]

Isn't Elemental Power a synergy ability?

To be honest I just copy/pasted the Elemental Power part from the brilliantgameologist guide. If I remember correctly yes, Elemental Power should a synergy weapon property. I assumed the listed price already covered the other needed property (the +1 enhancement bonus and the property needed for the sinergy to work)

[Segev]

Strict reading of RAW doesn't prevent it. It requires a mix of real-world physics to cause there to be a time-gap between when you throw the shuriken and when it hits the target, and nothing in the rules says that the shuriken is destroyed before its magical properties as a weapon go off. Otherwise, it wouldn't do damage!

The actual order of events is that you throw the shuriken; as the wielder, you activate it to cast its spell on the target if it hits. That's it. There's no weird nuance to read into it. It is quite straight-forward. You wield a weapon with which you hit a foe, and trigger its properties upon hitting. That it's thrown is irrelevant. Again, other wise no ammunition properties would ever work.

[Oddman80]

Elemental Power shuriken: summoning an elder elemental once per day as a standard action for 17 rounds for less than 2k? Sign me in.

Spellblade shuriken: immunity to a single spell and the ability to redirect it back to the caster as a free action? 166 gp for a single spell, +120 for each additional spell. Get some of these keyed off two or three of the spells the Wizard uses most and have him have a taste of his own medicine once in a while!

Flying shuriken: who needs to invent helicopters when a shuriken can lift you in the air for 50 minutes three times a day for about 300 gp?

The different size elementals correlate to their own required weapon bonus level. Its a synergistic property, so it requires a +1 elemental enchantment (e.g., Flaming, Frost, Shock, Thundering). So at a minimum, its a +3 weapon

DMG and SRD prices shurikens in 5 packs... but that just means you can summon them 5x/day :smalltongue::
Large Elemental (+1 bonus, equiv +3) = 1,831 gp (367 gp/per shuriken)
Huge Elemental (+2 bonus, equiv +4) = 3,231 gp (647 gp/per shuriken)
Greater Elemental (+3 bonus, equiv +5) = 5,031 gp (1,007 gp/per shuriken)
Eleder Elemental (+4 bonus, equiv +6) = 7,231 gp (1,447 gp/per shuriken)

[mashlagoo1982]

How do you get that? Exploding when destroyed isn't in the Explosive Runes spell description. That only happens when they're read, or when attempting to dispel or erase the runes and failing to do so.

For some reason I thought I read a rule that stated an attempt to disable an explosive rune by destroying the object instead caused the rune to explode.

I am probably just remembering something else I read on another board.

[Mellack]

Would shocking grasp even work? I believe it specifies a melee touch attack. There is no melee attack, or is that overwritten by the spell storing?

[Curmudgeon]

The actual order of events is that you throw the shuriken; as the wielder, you activate it to cast its spell on the target if it hits.
The problem (other than the shuriken no longer being wielded and thus this topic merely academic) is that there's a decision made immediately upon the weapon striking a creature. By the time that decision is made, even though it immediately follows a damage-dealing strike, the shuriken is destroyed.
Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires. There is no programmability stated for this property; the decision is made by the wielder when the weapon has struck for damage.

[Segev]

The problem (other than the shuriken no longer being wielded and thus this topic merely academic) is that there's a decision made immediately upon the weapon striking a creature. By the time that decision is made, even though it immediately follows a damage-dealing strike, the shuriken is destroyed. There is no programmability stated for this property; the decision is made by the wielder when the weapon has struck for damage.

The wielder is the one who threw it. He doesn't stop being the wielder by having thrown it. He makes all decisions based on being the wielder.

As for "it's destroyed before the effect could go off," then it would also be destroyed before damage could be dealt. Which is a silly result, and thus is not a good reading of the RAW. It hits, it does its various effects (including those triggered by the wielder's choice), and it is destroyed, all at once. Once it hits, all effects of hitting take place: damage, magical stuff, destruction of shuriken.

[Curmudgeon]

The wielder is the one who threw it. He doesn't stop being the wielder by having thrown it. He makes all decisions based on being the wielder.
The dictionary would disagree with you. Once the shuriken leaves your hand, you're no longer actively employing it. When you're wielding a weapon you can make decisions, such as deciding to attack a different target. But a thrown shuriken ceases to be under your influence.

wield
-verb (used with object)

to use (a weapon, instrument, etc.) effectively; handle or employ actively.
handle
-verb (used with object)

to touch, pick up, carry, or feel with the hand or hands; use the hands on; take hold of.

As for "it's destroyed before the effect could go off," then it would also be destroyed before damage could be dealt.The D&D mechanic doesn't have any separation between hitting and dealing damage.
Damage

When your attack succeeds, you deal damage. It hits, it deals damage, and it's destroyed: it's all coincident.

[Oddman80]

I second Segev's reading. Besides - any wizard that can enchant a weapon to not only store a spell but also, get the weapon to release the spell based solely on the wielder's desires (note, it does not require a command word, the weapon is actually reading the desires of the weapon user) would totally be able to get the weapon to go off automatically. That would be like saying "Your +50 in Profession:House Builder can only be used for building houses, you are clearly unable to use it to build a crude bench"

Additionally, you have quoted the line about spell storing a number of times. it says the weapon immediately casts the spell. It doesn't say it then casts the spell. It says its an immediate action. And Immediate actions act as interrupts, unless referred to as reactions. they take place before the triggering action is resolved. In this case the triggering action is the shiruken hits and causes damage, before that is resolved (i.e, before the shiruken can therefore be destroyed) the shrunken can immediately release the spell.

[Curmudgeon]

Additionally, you have quoted the line about spell storing a number of times. it says the weapon immediately casts the spell. It doesn't say it then casts the spell. It says its an immediate action.
"Immediately" does not mean, and never has meant, an immediate action. The term "immediately" has been unchanged in the Spell Storing property description from before immediate actions existed in the game. It's simply the English word.
immediately
-adverb

without lapse of time; without delay; instantly; at once: Please telephone him immediately.
"Without lapse of time" does indeed mean it then casts the spell.

[Snowbluff]

The dictionary would disagree with you. Once the shuriken leaves your hand, you're no longer actively employing it. When you're wielding a weapon you can make decisions, such as deciding to attack a different target. But a thrown shuriken ceases to be under your influence.

The D&D mechanic doesn't have any separation between hitting and dealing damage. It hits, it deals damage, and it's destroyed: it's all coincident.

Curm, by that line of reasoning employ means "to make use of." You don't have to be handling something to be wielding it. :smalltongue:

Anywho, my question about morphing seeking kukri is much more important? Does the weapon lose the enhancement?

[Oddman80]

You just used the same definition to justify shirukens CAUSING damage as you did to try to prove they CANNOT allow the spell to trigger.

You said their was no separation between the hit and the damage. you said the two things were coincident. That is the two things occupy the same space of time.

If the the spell going off happens immediately upon the shirukens hitting and causing damge... well:

Immediate: occurring, acting, or accomplished without loss or interval of timeThat means no time passes. That means it is synonymous with coincident. in order for it to happen after, time would need to pass. I will conceed that the rules establish a sequence for which to resolve things, but by definition no time passes between when the shiruken hits and when the spell is released.

[Curmudgeon]

If the the spell going off happens immediately upon the shirukens hitting and causing damge... well:
That means no time passes. That means it is synonymous with coincident. in order for it to happen after, time would need to pass. I will conceed that the rules establish a sequence for which to resolve things, but by definition no time passes between when the shiruken hits and when the spell is released.
No, it's not coincident; it's consecutive. It happens immediately afterward, with no intervening time. However, it is afterward, at which time there's no magic left in the remnants of the destroyed shuriken.

[Jowgen]

I believe there are two questions that need resolving for this discussion:

a) Is a piece of ammunition a weapon
b) If not, does this mean Shurikens are ammunition instead of weapons either?

The reason I am asking this in relation to CaptainQ Encyclopedia Vinculum Draconis entry on weapon enchantments, which deals with the current topic in detail, but isn't always entirely clear on where it sources certain rulings from.