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commander panda
2014-09-23, 01:51 PM
Hi playgrounders.

So, I'v been pulling together a plot for a D&D game I'll be running soon, and I've been thinking of including a plot point from the Black Prism novel by Brent Weeks (SPOILERS AHOY, btw.) the problem is that this particular plot point surounds an npc who would need to be a trusted part of the group to work. That said, I know he won't cause the usual god mode DMNPC problems because being a player in my own game isn't my goal.

Let me explain.
About 20 years ago the king of plothook city went to war against his rebelling younger twin brother and his druidic allies. the younger brother had fallen in love with the king's fiancee and they ran off together. big brother went after them. the war was mostly over a woman.
After three years of fighting the brothers and their entourage of generals meet to negotiate parley in a mountain villa. Negotiations break down, fighting starts, and by the time either side's soldiers show up, the king is the last one standing. The druids immediately double-cross the little brother's remaining forces and the war is won. The fiancee disappears.

Come to modern times, and a new rebel army is being raised by some character named the Silken Lady. She seems to be recruiting mostly from the rebellious fey and druidic tribes, and holds the little brother in near godlike regard. Obviously she's actually the fiancee coming for revenge (less obvious in practice.) Her real goal is to give the little brother a new body on earth and take vengeance on the king for killing him (and everyone else in the nation in the process.)

The king ends up recruiting a specialized group of warriors/murderhobos to help and adventure ensues.

The DMPC I'm talking about is basically the epitome of the silent badass. He keeps his armour on at all times and has a bunch of bandages all over his face underneath (he claims he was burned in 'the king's war.') He rarely talks (so he can't hog social encounters) and when he does it's in a horrible guttural voice that hurts to listen too. Also, i think he'll be optimized to armour and battlefield control, to avoid kill stealing from the players.

Anyway here's my dilemma.

at some point i'll get the king and the party alone, and Mr. Silent But Deadly will confront him in an uncharacteristically human voice and pull of the bandages. One plot reveal later and 'OMG, your brother is alive! you tried to secretly hold him captive but he got away years ago!' Followed by the next reveal that the king isn't the older brother at all. He's actually the younger brother. On the last day of the war he rendered the real king unconscious, took his clothes, and started issuing orders to his brother's army.
The silent badass was the older brother all along, and I'll surly build plot hooks from that. he wont retake the throne, though. at least not for long.


My question to the playground is this: Would you, as players, perceive this as a plot built for the DMPC if that character didn't actually take the spotlight all that much, and it's still be the PCs saving the day?

Amphetryon
2014-09-23, 02:53 PM
Hi playgrounders.

So, I'v been pulling together a plot for a D&D game I'll be running soon, and I've been thinking of including a plot point from the Black Prism novel by Brent Weeks (SPOILERS AHOY, btw.) the problem is that this particular plot point surounds an npc who would need to be a trusted part of the group to work. That said, I know he won't cause the usual god mode DMNPC problems because being a player in my own game isn't my goal.

Let me explain.
About 20 years ago the king of plothook city went to war against his rebelling younger twin brother and his druidic allies. the younger brother had fallen in love with the king's fiancee and they ran off together. big brother went after them. the war was mostly over a woman.
After three years of fighting the brothers and their entourage of generals meet to negotiate parley in a mountain villa. Negotiations break down, fighting starts, and by the time either side's soldiers show up, the king is the last one standing. The druids immediately double-cross the little brother's remaining forces and the war is won. The fiancee disappears.

Come to modern times, and a new rebel army is being raised by some character named the Silken Lady. She seems to be recruiting mostly from the rebellious fey and druidic tribes, and holds the little brother in near godlike regard. Obviously she's actually the fiancee coming for revenge (less obvious in practice.) Her real goal is to give the little brother a new body on earth and take vengeance on the king for killing him (and everyone else in the nation in the process.)

The king ends up recruiting a specialized group of warriors/murderhobos to help and adventure ensues.

The DMPC I'm talking about is basically the epitome of the silent badass. He keeps his armour on at all times and has a bunch of bandages all over his face underneath (he claims he was burned in 'the king's war.') He rarely talks (so he can't hog social encounters) and when he does it's in a horrible guttural voice that hurts to listen too. Also, i think he'll be optimized to armour and battlefield control, to avoid kill stealing from the players.

Anyway here's my dilemma.

at some point i'll get the king and the party alone, and Mr. Silent But Deadly will confront him in an uncharacteristically human voice and pull of the bandages. One plot reveal later and 'OMG, your brother is alive! you tried to secretly hold him captive but he got away years ago!' Followed by the next reveal that the king isn't the older brother at all. He's actually the younger brother. On the last day of the war he rendered the real king unconscious, took his clothes, and started issuing orders to his brother's army.
The silent badass was the older brother all along, and I'll surly build plot hooks from that. he wont retake the throne, though. at least not for long.


My question to the playground is this: Would you, as players, perceive this as a plot built for the DMPC if that character didn't actually take the spotlight all that much, and it's still be the PCs saving the day?
Yes, were I a player in this campaign, I would perceive this as a plot built for and around the DMPC. Compounding this, I would perceive that the DM chose to build the plot this way without consulting or even informing the players of the nature of the campaign, making any accomplishments I thought we were making as a group or individuals suddenly pale in comparison to your Big Reveal.

Devices that work well in fiction don't necessarily lend themselves smoothly to RPGs where collaborative storytelling is the presumed structure.

Red Fel
2014-09-23, 03:08 PM
Yes, were I a player in this campaign, I would perceive this as a plot built for and around the DMPC. Compounding this, I would perceive that the DM chose to build the plot this way without consulting or even informing the players of the nature of the campaign, making any accomplishments I thought we were making as a group or individuals suddenly pale in comparison to your Big Reveal.

Devices that work well in fiction don't necessarily lend themselves smoothly to RPGs where collaborative storytelling is the presumed structure.

Pretty much this.

An easy method is to step back and ask this simple question: Who is the protagonist in this story? That is, which person is the one to whom, and around whom, most things happen? The one against whom the forces of the universe seem to act?

If your answer is: One of the PCs: Not bad for a start. You're on the right side of the DM screen. But expect some of the other players to feel left out - everyone wants a chance in the limelight, after all. Each of the PCs: Artistry! A great game happens when each player feels as though, for just a moment, his character was the center of the universe. All of the PCs at once: Tricky, but great. When the PCs, as a group, are the primary movers in the world, the players feel powerful and accomplished. An NPC: This is the problem. If the story centers around the growth, adventures, and discovery of a non-player character, the players may feel - quite reasonably - as though there's no reason for them to be there. It doesn't matter if he doesn't take the spotlight much, or if he's not all that powerful - he is taking the spotlight where it matters, by being the focus of the plot. Where an NPC is the primary focus of the story, you could replace the players with potted plants. And they know it.
The DMPC you describe is an archetype. You describe him with magic words. "Epitome of the silent badass." "Horrible guttural voice that hurts to listen to." You describe him as a major plot point. You then, almost apologetically, explain how he is optimized for battlefield control, so he won't "kill steal". You've already made him out to be a person of importance, even if he uses no social rolls and limited combat utility.

Let me ask you this: If your DMPC died, would the game go on? This is a classic test. If a PC dies, the player can roll a new character. But it sounds like the death of this NPC would end the game. There would be no glorious reveal, no restoration of the proper order of things. As a general rule, an NPC so utterly vital to the plot that it can't be harmed is a problem. Plot armor, even in the absence of godlike win-power, is one of the reasons DMPCs are so often reviled. And it sounds like this guy has a serious case of plot armor.

Rainman3769
2014-09-23, 03:14 PM
DMPC's or anything like them are always tricky. I don't know how you planned on introducing Mr. Silent but Deadly, but have you considered what you would do if the party didn't bite, so to speak? What if they don't realize they are "supposed" to bring this guy along? What if they just get a bad feeling and ignore him? What if they mistake him for a threat and straight up kill him? Or try to? That's the problem with DMPCs in general IMO, especially if the plot REQUIRES their presence in the party. If things don't go how you need them to, then you are forced to railroad your party or somehow shoehorn the older brother into the group. I avoid DMPCs outright myself, but if you really want to use this plot (and it's compelling, dont get me wrong) but you will HAVE TO have a back-up plan in the event the party doesn't want this guy traveling with them.

commander panda
2014-09-23, 04:25 PM
hm.. i think i may not have given enough information here. i'll try to clarify things as i go. one thing that should be made clear though is that what i've described isnt the overarching plot. the actual adventure is still about the players. thats why i designed his character as silent and defensive. i don't want him moving the story too often.

also, i should have included this at first, but any suggestions for making this work better would be appreciated.


Devices that work well in fiction don't necessarily lend themselves smoothly to RPGs where collaborative storytelling is the presumed structure.
definitely. the plot point i've described has already gone through a bunch of major changes from the original just to be made playable at all. hence my worry.


The DMPC you describe is an archetype. You describe him with magic words. "Epitome of the silent badass." "Horrible guttural voice that hurts to listen to." You describe him as a major plot point. You then, almost apologetically, explain how he is optimized for battlefield control, so he won't "kill steal". You've already made him out to be a person of importance, even if he uses no social rolls and limited combat utility.
i did describe him pretty emphatically didn't i.:smallredface:
the key point i was trying to convey is that he's silent. mostly so he can't go ending social encounters right and left. when i said "epitome of the silent badass" what i really meant was typical silent warrior. i was trying to convey a negative, and did so poorly.


Let me ask you this: If your DMPC died, would the game go on? This is a classic test. If a PC dies, the player can roll a new character. But it sounds like the death of this NPC would end the game. There would be no glorious reveal, no restoration of the proper order of things. As a general rule, an NPC so utterly vital to the plot that it can't be harmed is a problem. Plot armor, even in the absence of godlike win-power, is one of the reasons DMPCs are so often reviled. And it sounds like this guy has a serious case of plot armor.

now this is a good point. also a complicated question, because i haven't fully planned the plot yet. adapting it so it could go on if he died would be perfectly possible. i will definitly keep this advice in mind.


DMPC's or anything like them are always tricky. I don't know how you planned on introducing Mr. Silent but Deadly, but have you considered what you would do if the party didn't bite, so to speak? What if they don't realize they are "supposed" to bring this guy along? What if they just get a bad feeling and ignore him? What if they mistake him for a threat and straight up kill him? Or try to? That's the problem with DMPCs in general IMO, especially if the plot REQUIRES their presence in the party. If things don't go how you need them to, then you are forced to railroad your party or somehow shoehorn the older brother into the group. I avoid DMPCs outright myself, but if you really want to use this plot (and it's compelling, dont get me wrong) but you will HAVE TO have a back-up plan in the event the party doesn't want this guy traveling with them. an interesting point... his general demeanour doesn't really inspire trust, does it. the real reason i need him to tag along is because i need the party to care about his existence.if they don't bite, i suppose i could have him turn up later as an uneasy ally to the party. to be honest he really is more of an NPC than a PC, but due to how long he stays around DMPC is an easier description. i think i can find ways for his rejection to work.

draken50
2014-09-23, 04:34 PM
So, in addition to the NPC being the big deal here. There's also the whole thing of... why the hell would the player's care?

It's not their brother, it's not their switch. They don't get to be all dramatic, and they really aren't likely to get attached to DMPC Silent McGruffy. Do the players care about the king? I mean, I get that there's a narrative expectation that people care about kings and stuff, but... well.. players don't generally unless they have reason to. Especially considering heredity and the royal line. It's kind of a big, "Doesn't effect me" kind of thing.

Now if a player was the son or loyal vassal, or intended to overthrow the current king, then they might have reason to care. Because of their investment in said character and the royal status quo... or at the very least changing it.

Otherwise, it doesn't' really matter. It could be quite the dramatic turn in a book or play, but in D&D it's not really a worthwhile narrative. Especially as you want DMPC as opposed to the player's just hearing stories and possibly meeting Silent McGruffy a time or two. Seriously you could do the same thing, by having the player's meet the character, hear some exploits, maybe... maybe meet him again, and then "Oh that guys... uh... the king or something... like he's not, but he should have been.. maybe? Oh, yeah.. still doesn't affect me, whatever."

Amphetryon
2014-09-23, 08:49 PM
now this is a good point. also a complicated question, because i haven't fully planned the plot yet. adapting it so it could go on if he died would be perfectly possible. i will definitly keep this advice in mind.

an interesting point... his general demeanour doesn't really inspire trust, does it. the real reason i need him to tag along is because i need the party to care about his existence.if they don't bite, i suppose i could have him turn up later as an uneasy ally to the party. to be honest he really is more of an NPC than a PC, but due to how long he stays around DMPC is an easier description. i think i can find ways for his rejection to work.
"Fully planned the plot" is a red-flag description to a lot of players that they're dealing with a railroad.

If the party is forced to either care about the NPC's existence, or have said NPC foisted upon them by the DM in order to allow the game to continue, then he is, in all practical ways, a DMPC and a Marty Stu, at that. The fact that the party's theoretical rejection of this companion would cause you to strong-arm the character onto the plot and party emphasizes this fairly clearly. Your additional information makes this even clearer than it was in the opening post.

VoxRationis
2014-09-23, 09:07 PM
Are the brothers twins or are they younger and older?

I'd say that this can work. The PCs are part of the world and sometimes other parts of that world assume greater importance. After all, it's really hard to make the bizarrely eclectic and frequently replaced PCs actually be important to the plot in a way more detailed than "they kill or remove the obstacles between point A and point B," since you can't count on them making characters that fit the story properly or even playing the same characters through a significant portion of the story. That said, you should keep in mind that the PCs are part of the story and can therefore affect it—you don't want it to progress to only one end, because that's really egregious railroading. What happens if the Bandaged One dies? What if the PCs take one side, or the other? What if the wizard thinks of how improbably easy it was for one brother to impersonate the other, says to himself, "I can do that," kills both of them, and uses disguise self to take control of the kingdom?

kyoryu
2014-09-23, 10:03 PM
My advice is not to prep plots.

Figure out who the movers and shakers in your game are. Figure out what they'll do if unopposed. Ideally, have at least two that are at least rivals.

Now, find a reason for your PCs to care about what's going on. Let them do what they do, and let the NPCs change their plans accordingly.

Having a "plot" is a good way to make sure that no PC choices make a lick of difference.

Thrudd
2014-09-23, 10:13 PM
Yes, this is clearly a plot about/revolving around the NPC's. The PC's are observers/facilitators. The big plot twist is something which only peripherally affects the players, some background information about the world which they may or may not care about.

The adventure needs to be about the players goals and motives. The game should be driven by the players' desire to accomplish something. Why do the players care about this feud between brothers and who is the king? If you want to salvage elements of this plot, then you may need to give the players some parameters for their characters' backgrounds and personalities so that they care about this kingdom and/or one or the other of the brothers. Let them find out that the king is an imposter during play. Then they should discover that the true king is still alive somewhere, and bringing him back should be something at least a couple of them want to do, based on their character backgrounds. The true king should not become an active party member, but be the macguffin for the adventure, an object they need to recover and deliver. If they fail at this quest and the king doesn't survive, so be it. If they help him, he could become a patron who gives them more quests. If they betray him to his brother, the brother may become their patron. If they try to help the true king and fail, they will be pursued by the evil brother's forces, and maybe the rebel leader will become their patron.

Bottom line: Don't plan for any sort of outcome. Set up the situation and let them decide what happens. Find a way for the quest goal (find/restore the true king) to intersect with their own goals (get rich, get more powerful, fulfill oaths, protect the innocent, whatever), so that the players actually care what happens and want to be involved.


This might also work as a one-shot game with pre-gen characters where one of the players is the secret king. He may choose to reveal his identity or not to the other players. At least one of the other characters is a former subject loyal to the true king who doesn't know he has been switched and will definitely jump to his defense if he was revealed. At least one character is loyal to the evil brother and would report or try to kill the true king if he found out he is still alive. Another character may be loyal to the kingdom, but could decide to go either way regarding the brother he supports when the reveal happens. By the end of the night, there will be a confrontation of brothers and the party members will need to decide who deserves to be king.

Flashy
2014-09-26, 02:56 AM
what i've described isnt the overarching plot. the actual adventure is still about the players.

So what's the overarching plot? Why is this side quest important enough to justify hauling around some moody guy in bandages for what sounds like a lengthy period of time?


adapting it so it could go on if he died would be perfectly possible.

I'm curious how this could be adapted. If the guy revealing himself is the entire point of this arc then short of some truly horrible DM fiat I don't see how this could avoid falling really flat.


his general demeanour doesn't really inspire trust, does it. the real reason i need him to tag along is because i need the party to care about his existence.

You've yet to come up with a compelling reason why they should ever start caring about him though. You've only described him in negative terms, quiet and secretive. If those are his only personality traits it's doubtful that they'd ever start to care about him. If this guy really is supposed to be a character then his should be a character. Flawed, interesting, likable, in some way engaging. He should have a personality, not a plot point.

SgtCarnage92
2014-09-28, 10:51 AM
Ultimately, whether or not the party gets involved here and whether or not they feel like plotted plants is how invested and active they are in the overall story. Ask yourself these things and use your answers to flesh it out.

-Why me?

Why are the PCs the ones that have to be involved with this guy? Could somebody else do it? Why aren't they?

-What's in it for me?

What are your PCs motivations and goals and what does helping this guy do to that end?

-What if not?

Know what happens if your players reject the hook and plan accordingly. If possible, find a way to bring them into it later if you feel like that's something that needs to be done.

-Are the PCs acting or being acted upon?

This is the difference between a good story and a bad one. Are the players active participants in events, or are they just passively observing and hitting things when they come up. Especially if it involves a plot that centers around a NPC, the players must have license to direct the action as much as possible (even with negative consequences).

-Is it interesting?

Is the story something engaging and interesting to your players or just you? Is the way you're introducing them to this plot interesting and engaging for the players or just you? Presentation and first impressions are important.

Ettina
2014-09-29, 08:54 AM
Is there a PC who could work for this character role? If so, maybe take that player aside and ask him if he wants to play out the plotline you've thought up here. You'd have to let go of the distinctive character description, of course, unless you just happen to have a PC who looks like that.