Negative Levels Question

[CantigThimble]

I was reading the rules for negative levels and for the first time I noticed the permanent level loss part. Do wights REALLY cause thousands of XP to be lost to level 3-4 characters? I know there's a save but that's not easy for anyone at that level, especially with the negative level penalties.

[Urpriest]

I was reading the rules for negative levels and for the first time I noticed the permanent level loss part. Do wights REALLY cause thousands of XP to be lost to level 3-4 characters? I know there's a save but that's not easy for anyone at that level, especially with the negative level penalties.

Yes, this is why everyone hates fighting Wights and the like, and why at low levels you generally try to fight them at range.

[Bronk]

Yes, that's how it works. They could also try to get a 'restoration' or similar spell, however.

[Shining Wrath]

This is why turning undead is such a big deal.

[CantigThimble]

I'm going to house rule that to the negative level persisting for another 24 hours (and then another save). That is an incredibly dumb rule I would only consider enforcing with a hardcore group and mine is anything but. The negative level penalty is debilitating enough as it is without THAT.

[Lightlawbliss]

They hurt but they are not horribly accurate, at only a +3 at lvl 3. Getting an AC of 21+ isn't that hard for the frontline fighter. (10+8 (fullplate) +2 (dex) +1(or more from magic and/or shield)

[Extra Anchovies]

Pathfinder seems to handle negative levels better; if my reading of them is correct, they never actually cause true loss of character levels, but permanent negative levels still impose the -1 to everything.

[Necroticplague]

I'm going to house rule that to the negative level persisting for another 24 hours (and then another save). That is an incredibly dumb rule I would only consider enforcing with a hardcore group and mine is anything but. The negative level penalty is debilitating enough as it is without THAT.

Beleive it or not, this is a step down from earlier editions, where negative levels didn't exist, and anything that would cause them now instead caused automatic level loss. You think a vampire is bad now? Think about each slam attack reducing your level by one, no save.

[Telok]

Actually in AD&D the vampires drained two levels with each hit.

And we had to walk twenty miles to get to a game store, in the snow, uphill both ways.

[CantigThimble]

Yeah, I have a set of AD&D books I got out of curiosity and I know full well that I don't want to play it. Losing levels permanently is the kind of thing that could easily have put me off of wanting to play D&D and I'm not doing that to other new players. I might give the wights +2 to hit to compensate though they still hit for 9-15 hit points which is rather a lot.

[Extra Anchovies]

Or, to keep the negative energy flavor of the wights without making them nasty badasses, just have the negative levels vanish after 24 hours.

[Rebel7284]

Sometimes bad things happen to good people and yet there is a pattern in gaming that is moving away from that reality toward solely an "achievement unlocked!" model that feeds of the endorphins generated by positive accomplishment.

[Extra Anchovies]

Sometimes bad things happen to good people and yet there is a pattern in gaming that is moving away from that reality toward solely an "achievement unlocked!" model that feeds of the endorphins generated by positive accomplishment.

True. However, "You gained a level! Nope, that was a lie. Give all that cool stuff back, you can earn it again later" is kind of a turn-off for a lot of players.

[Telok]

To be specific, in AD&D you fear and respect the undead, in 3+ you buy a restoration at the magic mart as your next-to-worst scenario. The worst scenario, drained all the way and rose in 1d4 rounds to attack your party, does not change.

It's a different style of game. Like the difference between a perma-death rogue-like and a respawn shooter like Quake.

[Sir Garanok]

Well i wouldn't recommend down-leveling new players either.

Make them vanish,give them restoration potions or make some small quest for removal.

I believe the dm should focus on players having fun,even if has to twist the rules or change his rolls.

[Oneris]

Preventing the possibility for permanent level drain is good for the DM too, since now he no longer needs to re-stat several dozen enemies to keep them at the right CR.

[Bronk]

Preventing the possibility for permanent level drain is good for the DM too, since now he no longer needs to re-stat several dozen enemies to keep them at the right CR.

Hmm, or having to deal with PCs re-leveling or getting rid of racial HD...

[Khedrac]

Actually in AD&D the vampires drained two levels with each hit.

And we had to walk twenty miles to get to a game store, in the snow, uphill both ways.

And then 2nd Ed introduced the laughable Shadow Dragon - breath weapon cost you 1/3 of your levels (albeit temporarily iirc) if you made your save!

Yes back in Expert and AD&D days Vampires and Specters at 2 levels per hit were regarded as extremely nasty and time to run away.

I fully support the DM making restoration available, preferably before the save has to be made as one still loses some xp, but without the chance the undead become much less frightening.

[Dalebert]

2E had Restoration but I believe it was a 7th level cleric spell (which were roughly equivalent to 9th level wizard spells) and it restore one level. Only the most powerful of clerics could cast them so you can imagine the expense and rarity. For the most part, if you took a level drain, you just had to level back up. Gary Gygax seemed nearly as bloodthirsty as George Martin.

[illyahr]

And then there's the fact that a creature slain by negative levels comes back as undead, which means you can create an entire army of wights by supplying your 1HD minions with a single Holy Avenger. :smallcool:

[sleepyphoenixx]

It depends on your gaming style. Some people have fun when bad things happen to their characters. Call of Cthulhu is pretty much based on that concept.
Other people can't stand any permanent consequences happening to their characters. Most people are somewhere in the middle.

Just don't go to far. Playing a game with no challenges is rarely all that fun after all.