Spartan Warrior

[Swordguy]

First off, weapon and shield simply DOES NOT work in D&D. Add to that limitations on what weapons can be used 1-handed, and trying to make an accurate Spartan warrior gets...wierd.

This is not in any way optimized, but is simply going for "feel". As in, "this should be about what a historical Spartan would be able to do". This requires the Spartan to have a +6 BAB, because of the prerequisite for the Formation Expert Feat (which hoplite-style infantry certainly have).

This requires 2 things that are not RAW:

Large Hoplite's Shield. (+3 AC or 50% cover, 20lbs, -3ACP, counts as a "large shield" for use of feats and abilities). The large shields listed simply don't do what the historical model did, largely because of thier limited size. The historical shield was a bronze-on-wood shield 4 feet in diameter (covering from the knee to the chin). A tower shield is too big for this, and a large shield is too small. Thus, this.

Using a reach weapon in one hand. The RAW simply doesn't support it. History does. Thus, I've assigned an alternative Monkey Grip feat that allows the Spartan to use a longspear in 1 hand (possibly with an attack penalty, I'm not sure yet).

The statline is: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 10. Nothing lower than 10 would be permitted, as the Spartan habit of killing imperfect children shows. Prime attributes are Str and Con.



Typical Spartan Warrior
Fighter 6

Str:16/+3
Dex:13/+1
Con:14/+2
Int:10
Wis:12/+1
Cha:10

HP: 52 (10@1st lvl, 6 per followup lvl, +12 HP from Con)

Base AC: 19 (MW Breastplate, MW Hoplite's Shield, +1 Dex)
Touch AC: 11
Flatfooted AC: 18

Init bonus: +1 (Dex)

BAB: +6/+1

FORT:+7 (5 class, 2 ability)
REF: +3 (2 class, 1 ability)
WILL: +3 (2 class, 1 ability)

Skills with ranks in them:
Craft(something approriate) +9; Intimidate (Str): +12; Ride: +6

Attacks:
MW Longspear (1-hand): (+10/+5 melee, 1d8+3 piercing, 20/x3 crit, 10' reach)
MW Shortsword: (+10/+5 melee, 1d6+3 piercing, 19/x2 crit)
Shield Bash: (+7 melee, 1d6+1 bludgeoning+trip+stun, 20/x2 crit)

Feats:
human) Combat Reflexes
1st lvl) Improved Shield Bash
Ftr1) Phalanx Fighting (if fighting with shield/light weapon, gain +1 AC. Form a shield wall for +2 AC and +1 REF for each person in the wall)
Ftr2) Hold the line (AOO on opponent who enters your threatened area)
3rd lvl) Shield Charge
Ftr4) Monkey Grip (modified as above: use longspear 1-handed)
6th lvl) Shield Slam (shield bash as a full attack or a charge dazes opponent unless they save FORT DC of 16)
Ftr6) Formation Expert
a) +1 AC with in shield wall
b) move into square of fallen ally within (move distance) in a shield wall
c) +2 to longspear attack rolls when 2 adjacent allies use same weapon



Thoughts?

[Swordguy]

The other way to do this is as a new class (which is obviously not RAW, but will make stuff fit a bit better)

alignment:

Hit Die: d10

Starting gold: 2d4x10gp.

Class Skills: Climb (Str), Concentration(Con),Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), Spot(Wis), Survival(Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill Points: (2 + Int modifier) ×4 at 1st lvl. 2+Int modifier each additional level

Attacks and Saves:
BAB: Fighter Progression (1:1)
FORT Save: Good Progression (+2-+12)
REF Save: Poor Progression (+0 - +6)
WILL Save: Good Progression (+2 - +12)

Weapons and Armor
Weapon Proficiencies: Proficient with all simple weapons, limited martial weapons including: Short Sword, Heavy Shield, Battleaxe, Warhammer, Falchion, Greataxe, Greatclub
Armor Proficiencies: Proficient in Light and Medium armor, proficient with Light and Heavy Shields

Class Features
Lvl1) With your Shield or on it
Lvl2) Bonus Feat
Lvl3) Improved Phalanx Fighting
Lvl4) Fight in the Shade, Spear Mastery
Lvl5) Bonus Feat, Hold the Line
Lvl6) A lifetime in armor
Lvl7) Weaponmastery
Lvl8) Bonus feat
Lvl9) Defensive Stance 1/day
Lvl10) Strength of my Brothers
Lvl11) Bonus Feat
Lvl12) Battle Cry
Lvl13) Shield Mastery
Lvl14) Bonus Feat, Defensive Stance 2/day
Lvl15)
Lvl16) The Best Defense
Lvl17) Bonus Feat
Lvl18)
Lvl19) Defensive Stance 3/day, Mobile Defense
Lvl20) Bonus Feat, I Will Dwell in the House of my Fathers...

Bonus Feat: These feats are chosen as Fighter bonus Feats

With your Shield or on it: The Spartan's best friend was his shield. You gain +4 to resist attempts to disarm or sunder your shield, gain a +1 to its effective AC (a heavy shield give a base +3 bonus), and, as a full-round action, can shelter below it, gaining 50% cover.

Improved Phalanx Fighting: You gain the listed bonuses of the Phalanx Fighting feat when wielding any polearm you are proficient in.

Fight in the Shade: When taking the full-round action to shelter beneath your shield as listed in "With your Shield or on it", you gain 75% cover instead of 50%.

Spear Mastery: Your ability to wield spears has improved to such a degree that you may wield a longspear in one hand (your primary hand). Your off-hand must contain nothing, a light weapon, or your non-tower shield when you use this, and your critical damage with the longspear becomes only a x2.

Hold the Line: this functions exactly like the feat of the same name

Weaponmastery: you gain the effects of the Improved Critical Feat with the Spear, Longspear, and Short Sword.

A lifetime in armor: You've spent so long in your armor that you wear it like a second skin. All Armor Check Penalties for armor and shields are reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 1) and you gain a +1 to your Armor's base AC.

Strength of my Brothers: While fighting in Phalanx formation (any time you are gaining the benefits of the Phalanx Fighting Feat), you gain a +1 morale bonus on FORT and WILL saving throws equal to the number of adjacent allies.

Battle Cry: (Su) You lead your allies in a heartening cheer that fills your opponents with dread. This takes a standard action, can be done on the charge, and forces an opponent to make a WILL save with a DC equal to 10+number of Spartans in the group making the cheer. They must all be adjacent to one another to contribute to this effect. An opponent who fails their save is shaken for 1 round. An unmodified roll of 5 or less on this save (that is still a failure after modifiers have been added) means the opponent is dazed for 1 round instead. In all cases, this is a mind-effecting ability that is only effective once per combat.

Defensive Stance: (Ex) When he adopts a defensive stance, a Spartan gains phenomenal strength and durability, but he cannot move from the spot he is defending. He gains +2 to Strength, +4 to Constitution, a +2 resistance bonus on all saves, and a +4 dodge bonus to AC. The increase in Constitution increases the Spartan's hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the defensive stance when the Constitution score drops back 4 points. These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are. While in a defensive stance, a Spartan cannot use skills or abilities that would require him to shift his position. A defensive stance lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A Spartan may end his defensive stance voluntarily prior to this limit. At the end of the defensive stance, the Spartan is winded and takes a -2 penalty to Strength for the duration of that encounter. A Spartan can only use his defensive stance a certain number of times per day as determined by his level. Using the defensive stance takes no time itself, but a Spartan can only do so during his action.

Shield Mastery: A Spartan has become a true expert at using his shield offensively and defensively. When making a full attack and attacking with a shield in is off-hand, the Spartan both treats his shield as a light weapon and does not lose his shield bonus to his AC that round.

The Best Defense: Even away from his phalanx, a Spartan is a terrifying warrior, combining shield and weapon attacks in a mind-numbing assault. If a Spartan successfully shield bashes an opponent, the opponent is considered pinned (unable to move) for 1 round (until the Spartan's next action) and the Spartan adds his Base Shield Bonus to attacks and damage against that opponent.

Mobile Defense (Ex): At 19th a Spartan can adjust his position while maintaining a defensive stance. While in a defensive stance, he can take one 5-foot step each round without losing the benefit of the stance. In addition, if doing so while in a Phalanx (gaining the benefits of the Phalanx Fighting Feat), he enables every ally within 5' of him who has the Defensive Stance ability to move with him.

I Will Dwell in the House of my Fathers...: The Spartan is a legend even among the greatest warrior society in the ancient world for He gains the Diehard Feat if he does not already have it. In addition, while in positive HP, he may make a FORT save against any single attack that would reduce him to -10 HP or below. The DC is 10+the damage dealt. If the check succeeds, the damage is counted as subdual damage. This check may be made a number of times per round equal to the Spartans' Dexterity modifier (minimum 1).

[elliott20]

I personally liked your first approach better. It sticks closer to the rules which means you can just port most of the info right into your game instead of having to introduce the PrC.

You should also build some squad leaders, commanders and basically fill out the spartan ranks.

[Swordguy]

I personally liked your first approach better. It sticks closer to the rules which means you can just port most of the info right into your game instead of having to introduce the PrC.

You should also build some squad leaders, commanders and basically fill out the spartan ranks.

Yeah, I preferred it as well, but this IS the homebrew forum. :wink:

I'm thinking your basic Spartan Warrior is a Ftr6 (which, incidentally, is how they kick so very much ass). The spartan unit was the platoon (can't recall the actual word) 8 men wide and 4 men deep. In this would typically be one commander and his assistant. So you're probably looking at a Ftr9 for the CO and Ftr 7 for the Assistant, with the CO using his 9th level feat for Leadership (since that's the only way he can take it).

No commentary on the Hoplite's Shield? I should have mentioned that using it to gain 50% cover works the same way as with a tower shield; you can't attack and get cover the same turn.

[elliott20]

the hoplite shield seems to be just fine. It's basically mid-way step between large shield and a tower shield, which is nice.

[Matthew]

Eh? Are we talking about 'Historical Spartans' here or the 300 versions?

Well, the 'Hoplite Shield' varied in size and weight; we can only approximate really, but I see no problem in using a Large / Heavy Shield to represent it, especially as those are supposed to be able to represent 'Viking Round Shields', which could get pretty big. Not to mention the fact that we are given no measurements for D&D Large or Heavy Shields.

All the same, it's understandable that you might wish to create 'Hoplite' specific types of arms and armour, but why stop with the Spartan / Hoplite Shield?

You don't need to worry about the prerequisites for any given Feat if you are assigning it as a 'Bonus Feat', so 'Phalanx Fighting' can simply be assigned as a 'Spartan Bonus Feat' and you don't have to worry about minimum levels for Spartans.

More importantly, there is no real reason to have Spartans use the Fighter Class by default. Some of them will be Fighters, but the majority are going to be Warriors.

Consider using the 'Weapon Proficiency Groups' from Unearthed Arcana, as then you can make use of a Weapon Proficiency Group (Spartan Weapons) Feat, which will allow you to apply Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation to the Spartan Spear, Shield and Sword.

I agree with setting their stats at above average, either a uniform 13 for Strength, Dexterity and Constitution or 14, depending on how 'great' you want your Spartans to be.

Spartan Warrior 1 AB 1(3), AC 17, HP 2-9,
Strength 13, Dexterity 13, Constitution 13, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 10, Charisma 10
Feats: Weapon Focus (Spartan Weapons), [Feat],* Phalanx Fighting,**
Skills: Jump 4(5), Climb 4(5), Swim 4(5),
Equipment: Spartan Armour (+4 AC), Spartan Shield (+2 AC), Spartan Spear (One Handed Long Spear), Spartan Sword (Short Sword),

* Block Arrow, Shield Wall or Shield Specialisation.
** Free Spartan Bonus Feat.

Shield Feats:

Good Shield Feats (Highly recommended)

Block Arrow (Heroes of Battle, BAB 0+, Dexterity 13+) [Negates a Ranged Attack]
Shield Wall (Heroes of Battle, BAB 0+, Shield Proficiency) [+2 AC when in formation]
Shield Specialisation (Players' Handbook II, BAB 0+, Shield Proficiency) [+1 AC with Shield)

Average Shield Feats (High level or specialised stuff)

Shield Charge (Complete Warrior, BAB 3+, Improved Shield Bash)
Shield Slam (Complete Warrior, BAB 6+, Shield Charge)
Shield Snare (Dragon #309, BAB 0+, Improved Shield Bash) [Disarm with Shield],
Shield Ward (Players' Handbook II, BAB 0+ Shield Specialisation) [Add Shield AC against Touch Attacks],

Bad Shield Feats (Basically useless)

Shield Mate (Miniatures Handbook, BAB 1+) [An AC boost for non Shielded allies when in formation].

Feats Mentioned

These Feats are frankly not as good as Block Arrow and Shield Wall.

Phalanx Fighting (Complete Warrior, BAB 1+, Heavy Shield Proficiency) [The problem with this Feat is that it relies on Heavy Shields and Light Weapons, so it cannot be used in conjunction with a Long Spear]
Formation Expert (Complete Warrior, BAB 6+) [Similarly, this Feat is very specific and requires a high level]


Anyway, that's how I would model Spartans as Warrior 1 Class NPCs.

[flawed.Perfection]

If you want to create a Base class or PrC of Spartans (as in 300) I'd suggest looking at Wheel of Time for the Algai'd'siswai base class. (Though since Wizards aren't supporting the product anylonger, it may be hard to find...)

Basically, it was an unarmored warrior, specialized in spear combat.

Also, regarding stats: Why would Charisma and Intelligence be high?

[Matthew]

A better question would be why would Intelligence and Charisma be low? If 10 is average, why should Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma suffer for Strength, Dexterity and Constitution to be raised? Just a silly by product of the D&D Point Buy / Trade Off Attribute assigning system.

[Swordguy]

I was trying to model a Spartan roughly between the power level of 300 and real life (would fight best using RL tactics, but has a heroic potential).

The problem with modeling Spartans (and many other historical groups, for that matter) comes in terms of assigning feats. Simply put, it takes several levels to get enough feats to accurately model what the real-life warrior is capable of.

For example, accurately modeling the effect of the phalanx really should require the Formation Expert Tactical Feat. That right there puts you to a 6th level minimum. This says nothing about the ability to proficiently wield a shield in combat - which hoplites were known to do (and modeled with Improved Shield Bash, and Shield Slam), or use a longspear in one hand (again, something borne out in the real world).

A War1 simply doesn't get the number of abilites, RAW, to model what someone who trained for war since age 6-8 should know. Heck, I can do more stuff than a 5-6th lvl Fighter! (I joust, and am a professional stuntman/fight director, and I've only been doing it since I was 18, 9 years now. Imagine a 24-year old Spartan who doesn't have to spread out his focus like I do...).

You've seen 300, right? Remember the scene about "how many soldiers did you bring?" Those Greeks were 2-3rd lvl experts/1st lvl warriors or thereabouts (I see D&D as 1st lvl=apprentice, 2-3rd lvl=professional, 4th lvl=veteran, 5th lv=elite-ish). Spartans should be at the high end of this (the major limiting factor is the whole +6 BAB for Formation Fighting requirement, otherwise they'd be 4-5th level). Specifically, though, they should be Fighters. It's all they do. I can't think of many who deserve the appellation more.

Oh, the Hoplite Shield was inspired for 2 reasons. First, the Large shield depicted in the book seems to be a shoulder-to-hip shield, and the small shield looks like a targe. The Spartan shield was much bigger than either, but certainly not the described size of the Tower Shield ("as big as you"). Playing with accurate historical replicas, it really does cover from the knee to the chin (about 4' dia), and is wide enough to completely shield your torso from view, even when held against the body (unlike most other shields, which are held away from the body). You can also certainly shelter behind it, as was demonstrated in the movie. I'd call that the ability to grant cover, not just a +2 AC. It feels about right at +3 AC/50% cover as a full-round action.

You do bring up a very good point with the size of the Norse Round shield, but I must point out that those are made of thin layers of glued linden, and are very easy to break. A thrown franchisca will shatter a plank. The Spartan shield is a layer of hide, a layer of wood, a layer of hide, and a layer of bronze. A little more durable, I think. You probably should be able to shelter behind a Norse Round, but it should also break after a very little damage, so I'd call it a wash (and chalk another point into the "WotC hates shields" column).

[Swordguy]

I just realized I should point out how I model stuff in a game. I figure out roughly what someone's capable of, and try to find game abilities that match. That's why Spartans need the Formation Fighting Tac Feat (among others)- because they can DO that.

[quotemyname]

i for one am a big fan of hombrew stuff, and i appreciate all the work that must have gone into designing a new 20 level class. I therefore prefer your PrC to the stuff that is already in the system.

At first glance, it seems as if the class is unbalance and overpowered, but then when you think about it, that comes with the assumption that the Spartan is sharing the battlefield with other Spartans. And as we learned from 300, the Spartans (when in formation) were the best warriors of the ainchient world by far. This unfortunatly almost never happens in a party of PCs. Most players will say, "Well if he is being a fighter, then i will be a cleric" Thus the Spartan may never get to share the battlefield with another Spartan. This nearly nullifies 1/3 to 1/2 of the Spartans best abilities and feats as well as severely limiting his options in combat.

I think the class is great! I plan on saving it for later. maybe i can convince one or two of my friends to play a spartan along with me. suported by a cleric and a wizard, this would not be a bad party setup.

[Swordguy]

i for one am a big fan of hombrew stuff, and i appreciate all the work that must have gone into designing a new 20 level class. I therefore prefer your PrC to the stuff that is already in the system.

At first glance, it seems as if the class is unbalance and overpowered, but then when you think about it, that comes with the assumption that the Spartan is sharing the battlefield with other Spartans. And as we learned from 300, the Spartans (when in formation) were the best warriors of the ainchient world by far. This unfortunatly almost never happens in a party of PCs. Most players will say, "Well if he is being a fighter, then i will be a cleric" Thus the Spartan may never get to share the battlefield with another Spartan. This nearly nullifies 1/3 to 1/2 of the Spartans best abilities and feats as well as severely limiting his options in combat.

I think the class is great! I plan on saving it for later. maybe i can convince one or two of my friends to play a spartan along with me. suported by a cleric and a wizard, this would not be a bad party setup.

That's what I designed it for. In groups, Spartans are holy terrors. In adventuring parties, not so much. A pair or trio of Spartans (go full Spartan up to about level 6 and pick up the Formation Fighting Tactical feat, then multi out of it into whatever you want) is probably your best best, and would be a lot of fun to play (and how different than the 2-handed sword uber-damage builds we keep seeing!).

Oh, the full 20 lvl class is designed to be a "300" Spartan. The 6 level build in the OP? Realistic Spartan.

[Matthew]

If you're going for something 'above' a historical perspective, then I can see the desire to up the power level.

To be clear, I was only modelling what could be done with a Warrior 1, NPCs can, of course, be any level required, though that might not fit population by level figures, it's no big deal.

Feats

The thing about Feats is that you don't need to give them by level to NPCs, especially ones that are set up like this. The whole idea of Spartan Society being set up for warfare is enough fluff justification to assign 'Free Bonus Feats', which is what I was arguing above - I quite agree that the unfortunate backlash of the Feat to Level 3.x system is that it forces Characters to gain levels just to be capable of certain things. Saying that, 'Free Bonus Feats' are almost always going to be a better solution that having to constantly 'level up' everything (Warrior 1, Mounted Archer Build? - forget it...). The precedent already exists for the acquisition of 'Free Regional Feats', it's the best solution to my mind.

Shields

I do think you are badly underselling the Viking Round Shield here. The durability of such Shields is an Arms and Armour question, but it has been shown that they were not necessarily easily breakable, especially if fronted by a layer of leather (which the current evidence suggests was common).

Saying that, it hardly matters. A Wooden Large / Heavy Shield could represent a Viking Shield, whilst a 'Metal' Large / Heavy Shield could represent a Hoplite Shield. The durability of the Shield does not relate to its Shield Bonus to Armour Class, though its size seems to (3.5 change in terminology not withstanding).

I have seen a great number of representations and reconstructions of Hoplite Shields, some are very large and some are not, but none that can claim to be perfectly accurate. I have no real problem with creating a 'rank 3' shield, but I don't think it is strictly necessary, any more than creating a dozen different types of 'Long Sword' or 'Short Sword' to represent the differently sized blades and styles that those groups represent. Here's a link to a thread where there is some informed discussion about how such Shields were made and their dimensions: Hoplite Shield Construction Methods (http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=14668)

Here's a link to a Spartan Re-enactment group that aims for a high degree of authenticity. Their Shields seem to be (with reference to size) about the same size as a Viking Round Shield or, indeed, a Norman Kite Shield (but obviously a different shape): Spartan War Band (http://spartanwarband.com/gallery/Reenactment)

I wouldn't put any real stock in the pictures that accompany D&D Arms and Armour, they purposefully used a very broad brush this time round in describing weapons and armour; those representations are only 'possibilities'.

[Harkone]

First off, weapon and shield simply DOES NOT work in D&D. Add to that limitations on what weapons can be used 1-handed, and trying to make an accurate Spartan warrior gets...wierd.

The whole Spartan thing aside, I have some comments regarding the weakness of the shield in D&D. Most single-class fighter-types, using the basic PHB rules, would be fools to use any kind of shield instead of using a two-handed weapon. I noticed in my campaigns that every fighter, barbarian, or paladin (or the equivalent) was using a greatsword (or something similar); no one used one-handed weapons at all, let alone the varied one-handed weapons available (even the rogues used rapiers, not shortswords or daggers, for example). I also noticed that as the game progresses, especially to the higher levels, bonuses to hit far outpaced AC. Everyone, PC, NPC, or monster, was hitting way too easily.

I rectified these situations by modifying shields as follows and creating the defense bonus.

Shields

Light Shields grant a +2 to AC; they are otherwise as listed in the PHB.

Heavy Shields grant a +3 to AC, and this bonus increases based on the wielder's Base Attack Bonus. For every 4 points of BAB, the AC bonus granted by the heavy shield goes up by 1. So, at BAB+4, the heavy shield grants a +4 AC; at BAB+8, the heavy shield grants a +5 AC, etc.; they are otherwise as listed in the PHB.

Bucklers grant a +1 armor bonus that stacks with armor's armor bonus; however, any enhancement to the buckler does not stack with the armor's enhancement bonus unless the buckler is used as a shield; they are otherwise as listed in the PHB.


Defense Bonus:

When a character is armed, he/she receives a defense bonus to his AC against all melee attacks. This bonus does not apply to ranged attacks, touch AC, or flat-footed AC. The exact bonus depends on what sort of weapon(s) the character is wielding:
Situation #1: (+1 AC/3 levels or HD -2, maximum +4 total): using a weapon two-handed or using two one-handed weapons
Situation #2: (+1 AC/3 levels or HD, maximum +6 total): using a one-handed weapon, using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon, using a double weapon, using natural weapons, or using a one-handed weapon and a shield
Situation #3: (+1 AC/3 levels or HD +2, maximum +8 total): using one light weapon, using two light weapons, using an unarmed strike, or using a light weapon and a shield

Examples:
Level 3 character w/ greatsword: +0
4-HD Ogre w/ Large greatclub: +0
Level 7 character w/ longsword and shield: +2
Level 10 character w/ battle axe and hand axe: +3
Level 13 character w/ 2 light maces: +6
30-HD Dragon (w/ natural weapons): +6
Level 17 character w/ dagger: +7
Level 20 character w/ shortsword: +8

I have found these changes (used over the last 4 years or so) have made the weapon-and-shield fighter much more appealing to use, both as a PC or as foes. For example, in my Forgotten Realms campaigns the basic soldiers of the church of Bane, Zhentarim, etc., wield heavy shields and shortswords. With Shield Specialization (PHB II), Phalanx Fighting (Lords of Darkness, and probably elsewhere too), and my rules, they are quite formidable, and quite different from the standard greatsword- or bastard sword-wielding fighters one commonly encounters.

Hope this is helpful.

[Matthew]

Interesting, but why post that in this thread? I think you would be better served starting a New Thread for a discussion of those House Rules. Personally, I'm a proponent of the 'Active Defence' House Rule, rather than just throwing more and more AC at the problem.

[Harkone]

I'll start a new thread.

[Necromas]

I think a couple whirling frenzy variant barbarian levels would definitely suit a Spartan if you're going for a cool factor. Fast movement and uncanny dodge simply because they're more skilled and dexterous then other fighters, and whirling frenzy fits perfectly with movie hero combat where it goes into slo-mo asswhooping.

Other Ideas!

-Balanced Longspear, exotic, 1d8 damage, x3 crit, one-handed, reach (but could not be set vs charge unless wielded two-handed)
-Leap Attack
-Agile Shield Fighter
-Hoplite Shield, +3 to AC, -1 to attack rolls, -3 acp, 25 lbs, 25% spell check failure, can be used for 50% cover, shield bash base damage as a spiked large shield but cant put spikes on it cause it'd make it too unwieldy.

Don't forget the Greek ranged troops, the peltasts.

Gear: Leather armor, Heavy Wooden Shield, Javelins, Throwing Strap, Shortspear
Feats: Brutal Throw, Point Blank Shot, Far shot, EWP: throwing strap

The throwing strap was used to improve the Javelins range and would probably be an exotic weapon when used to throw javelins.

[Renrik]

^As much as I like the idea of the peltasts, I don;t think the spartants had Leap Attack. They fought in close formations, not jumping around power-attacking (however much they do in 300. Bloody histroically inaccurate movies... it would have been just fine if they'd made a movie about Thermopylae that was just realistic.... it's better when the heros aren't unstoppable killing machines. The comic book was better.)

I think the Spartans should have some other skills. They didn;t learn crafts, because their only job was warfare; the slaves made the nice things for them. Intimidate, they had, but not so many ranks in it. They didn;t seem to have much in the way of cavalry (effecively, they had no cavalry), so I don;t think they should have ranks in ride.

But hey should have ranks in survival, hide, move silently, spot, and listen. Stealth and survival were part of spartan training. Spartans weren't fed enough, to encourage them to steal.

[Neek]

Historically inaccurate comic, you mean. The 300's based on Frank Miller's works, which is where it's inaccurate.

Also, ditch the gold pieces; the Spartans made no use of gold currency, rather the state minted iron coins so that amassing wealth would be nearly impossible (you couldn't run off with the treasury and use it to secure yourself safety in Athens, for instance). The state would provide the good and strong Spartans with anything they needed within reason, however.

Other than that, I like what I'm seeing.

[Swordguy]

Historically inaccurate comic, you mean. The 300's based on Frank Miller's works, which is where it's inaccurate.

Also, ditch the gold pieces; the Spartans made no use of gold currency, rather the state minted iron coins so that amassing wealth would be nearly impossible (you couldn't run off with the treasury and use it to secure yourself safety in Athens, for instance). The state would provide the good and strong Spartans with anything they needed within reason, however.

Other than that, I like what I'm seeing.

I was thinking the gp were for "adventuring" spartans, rather than army regulars.

Otherwise, thanks! Any balancing problems leaping out at you? How does this stack up against core melee classes?

[imp_fireball]

That's what I designed it for. In groups, Spartans are holy terrors. In adventuring parties, not so much. A pair or trio of Spartans (go full Spartan up to about level 6 and pick up the Formation Fighting Tactical feat, then multi out of it into whatever you want) is probably your best best, and would be a lot of fun to play (and how different than the 2-handed sword uber-damage builds we keep seeing!).

Oh, the full 20 lvl class is designed to be a "300" Spartan. The 6 level build in the OP? Realistic Spartan.

Also, think that it'd actually be beneficial to the part to have two classes going martial, rather then the same set up of caster/healer/tank/skill-monkey each and every time.

[imp_fireball]

That's what I designed it for. In groups, Spartans are holy terrors. In adventuring parties, not so much. A pair or trio of Spartans (go full Spartan up to about level 6 and pick up the Formation Fighting Tactical feat, then multi out of it into whatever you want) is probably your best best, and would be a lot of fun to play (and how different than the 2-handed sword uber-damage builds we keep seeing!).

Oh, the full 20 lvl class is designed to be a "300" Spartan. The 6 level build in the OP? Realistic Spartan.

Also, think that it'd actually be beneficial to the party to have two classes going martial, rather then the same set up of caster/healer/tank/skill-monkey each and every time.

[snoopy13a]

I believe the other Greeks thought the Spartans placed too much emphasis on training. They believed that serving in a phalanx wasn't that complicated.

Although, the Spartans had the helots do their farming (of course keeping the helots down was the reason behind the Spartans' military state) while the hoplites of other Greek city-states tended to be middle class farmers (the aristocrats were cavalry). Perhaps the Spartans needed to train in order to build the strength their rivals obtained through farming?

Anyway, their superior training didn't help much when Epaminondas whupped them :smalltongue: