[3.5] Illumian Knight//Dragon Shaman - Build Advice?

[JBPuffin]

So, I have some free time every other week, and here's what I've come up with as a sort of experiment into true gestalt: Illumian Dragon Shaman//Knight. I'm not sure how many levels I'll be building the thing to, and magic items aren't too important; what I want is suggestions (ability scores in 25-point buy, skill ranks, feats, auras etc.) - and some prestige class choices. This may not be the most optimal thing in the world, but have at it!

One last thing - I don't have access to Dragon Magazine, but most 3.5 and 3rd edition books ought to be good. Cheers!

[Red Fel]

Interesting... Okay. Let's look at the pieces first.

Dragon Shaman is a capable support class, with auras and a breath weapon, and a minor Cha focus for its Touch of Vitality ability. Knight is a melee class with armor bonuses and a Cha-based signature ability. Together, you get full BAB, and good Fort and Will saves.

Next, Illumian. Since neither DSham nor Knight use spells, your choice of Sigils is limited. For example, Aesh, Uur, and Vaul may be useful to you; Hoon, Krau, and Naen, less so. You get almost no use out of Words, which either require you to have spell slots or Turn Undead uses. The only one which doesn't require some kind of casting is Aeshuur, and the use of that one is halved because you have no source of Sneak Attack. Still, +1 to Str and Dex checks isn't terrible for a melee role, and at least you can get some benefit if you crit. Honestly, Illumian is a bad race for non-casters, but it's your call.

Now, onto other things. The question is what you want to do with this character. Dragon Shaman makes you a great support, but that takes no action on your part. You can be a solid party face. You can optimize your breath weapon. You can soak an ungodly amount of damage between DSham and Knight. Or you could multiclass out of this pair of disappointments posthaste. What's your objective here?

[Troacctid]

Are web supplements okay? If so, I would take the Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat. It provides a scaling mount, which is good for your Knight half, and a body to give aura buffs to, which is good for your Dragon Shaman half.

Both your classes have Charisma synergy, so you might as well take up a face role for noncombat situations. The Vaul sigil gives you +2 to all Charisma-based skill checks, and Beguiling Influence (available as an alternate class feature at 5th level replacing one of your draconic auras known--see Dragon Magic p14) gives you another +6 to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate. You'll want some way of getting Diplomacy as a class skill--my first thought is a dip in Marshal, which is very thematically appropriate and gives you Skill Focus (Diplomacy) for free, with the option of Motivate Charisma if you want to go really deep. You'll probably want to steer clear of Bluff because of your Knight's Code, but Diplomacy and Intimidate are fair game.

[JBPuffin]

Party face and breath weapon, with the ability to fight in melee and Touch of Vitality as the need arises, are primary goals for the moment. Really, I don't need this guy as high-powered as possible, so as long as he can operate at level 20 he'll be good to go.

I've got a very rough skeleton ATM, but before I keep going I'd like to see what the Playground thinks. PrCs, skill and feat choices, a good weapon and armor set-up (just base items, though, not enchantments), those are my main questions. Anything goes, though, and thanks for asking questions Fel.

Troacctid, free-access supplements are good; not sure if I really want an animal (second stat block "shivers"), but Marshal is an option for sure. Which side is better to dip from, though, DrShaman or Knight, and when would I do that?

Edit: Fun fact about Knight's Code - it doesn't care about Out of Combat situations :smallbiggrin:. Bluff is okay!
Also, Troacctid, you're suggesting I get the Dragonfire Invocation Beguiling Influence, correct? And for a Wild Cohort, how does Wolf(want something more threatening than a normal snake :smallwink:)->Large Viper->Giant Crocodile->Meagraptor->Tyrannosaurus? I'd like to stick to reptiles :smallsmile:.

[Troacctid]

My inclination is to dip on the Knight side, just so as to avoid losing skill points, although depending on prestige classes or other dips you end up taking, it might not matter. If you're okay with Bluff, I'd go with a blue dragon as your totem dragon. At-will ventriloquism is pretty nifty.

A common route for a Knight to go if they're not doing mounted combat is the Combat Reflexes tripper build, which has lots of synergy with Bulwark of Defense. Take Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes, and wield a guisarme with armor spikes to threaten lots of squares. Trip anyone who comes near you to keep the battlefield locked down nice and tight. (Edit: This is particularly effective with an Illumian as the Aesh sigil gives +2 to trip attempts.) As a Dragon Shaman, the Entangling Exhalation feat can let you entangle enemies with your breath weapon too (no save), which is pretty solid even if it isn't at-will like a Dragonfire Adept's would be.

A dip in Crusader at 9th level would work well with this strategy: Iron Guard's Glare is great against opponents who manage to slip past you somehow, Revitalizing Strike lets you heal yourself and your allies without wasting actions, White Raven Tactics is pretty much the Holy Grail of support, and the class in general is just very strong as a dip for martial characters. (And again, thematically appropriate.)

[JBPuffin]

Both classes are 2+Int on skills, so that's not a problem. I think with the Cohort I'll go Mounted Combat, which will affect cohort choices I just now realize (aka, I need to go with horse at the start). So skill-wise, it looks like I need Handle Animal and Ride...what else? Also, do I need an Int mod of +1 or better? 25-pt buy's kind of tight for that...Also, the guy's definitely Good, so I'd have to go Silver for Bluff (which is better, imo, b/c Cold over Fire).

[Troacctid]

Hmm, I forgot Dragon Shaman is only 2 + Int. Well, you don't need a ton of ranks in Handle Animal as the DCs are usually quite low; most of the time you won't need to hit more than a DC 12. You'll want some, but you probably won't need to keep it maxed. 5 ranks is probably enough. Ride...I guess you want it maxed for Mounted Combat rolls. But you also want social skills, and probably some Speak Language too (since social skills are language-dependent), which leaves you a little tight on skill points. Maybe Nymph's Kiss? And/or a (Martial) Rogue dip at 1st level, or possibly Swordsage?

You do need 13 Int for Combat Expertise anyway, so there's that--unless you subbed in Stand Still instead of Improved Trip, which is definitely valid, since it does work with a lance, and it's better against large creatures; or I suppose a 2-level dip in Passive Way Monk or Wolf Totem Barbarian would ignore the prereqs, so that's on the table too.

[Gwendol]

Knights don't multiclass well, so just keep that in mind. No matter if mounted or not you will want reach to make use of BoD, coupled with combat reflexes and a bunch of feats to go with that. Stand still, Robilar's gambit, defensive sweep, mage slayer, and so on.
You probably want a way to get large, especially if wanting to trip.

[JBPuffin]

I'll say this much: tripping is off the table. Since he's not the frontline, the guy's job is really to boost his allies' combat skills: Breath Weapon, party face, Touch of Vitality, melee - in that order. I'm starting to wonder if there's an alternate class feature that I can trade Mounted Combat for...BoD isn't really important, considering, once again, melee isn't his focus.

Is Combat Expertise still a good option if I'm not a frontliner? Also, if I do need it, what should his 25 pt-buy scores be to get 13 Int and still not suck?

[Red Fel]

I'll say this much: tripping is off the table. Since he's not the frontline, the guy's job is really to boost his allies' combat skills: Breath Weapon, party face, Touch of Vitality, melee - in that order. I'm starting to wonder if there's an alternate class feature that I can trade Mounted Combat for...BoD isn't really important, considering, once again, melee isn't his focus.

Is Combat Expertise still a good option if I'm not a frontliner? Also, if I do need it, what should his 25 pt-buy scores be to get 13 Int and still not suck?

Short version? If he's not a frontliner, why is he a Knight? Very few of Knight's abilities function away from the front lines. Call to Battle can be useful, and Daunting Challenge (if you seriously pump Cha), and Bond of Loyalty may be useful. Your weapon and armor proficiencies are wasted. Bulwark of Defense, Vigilant Defender, and Shield Ally all require you to be reasonably close to the front lines of combat, unless you just plan to sit back and bodyguard the casters. I can't believe I'm saying this, but another, similarly-flavored class, such as Paladin, will probably give you more utility (!). Not to mention it PrCs better.

[Gwendol]

Yeah, unless you plan on duking it out on the frontline you have no reason to go knight. Paladin with smite to song and divine spirit should be a better choice. Or bard.

[sideswipe]

if you want to be useful at high levels, i suggest 10 in int and ignore combat expertise.
feats to pick up -
wild cohort,
power attack
improved bullrush
shock trooper

all of this is obtainable by level 6 or 9 (im still not sure how to use the archive to find it).

i would either take a 1 level dip in barbarian for pounce, or get an item of the ranger spell lions charge (possibly made by an archivist so its much cheaper due to lower caster level). this will allow you to use all your attacks when charging on your mount.

use a lance for the charging multipliers.
i believe there are some obscure spells or items that give damage multipliers on the charge, i know there is a paladin based build that can do 50,000 damage on the charge. but you don't want that, you want a few hundred a round at level 20.
you could also take whirling frenzy instead of rage for an extra attack,
its not too cheesey, you are just a knight who has sampled the lifestyles and fighting styles of other cultures, then adapted their fighting to fit with your righteous and honourable combat.

having (in no order) barbarian 1/dragon shaman 1 (for continuous lesser vigor to half health)/knight 18 (prestige if you wish)
at level 20, without other things to give you extra attacks and assuming only a +5 weapon so you can buff this a lot more

str - 15 +5 from levels =20
dex - 11
con - 14
int - 8
wis - 8
cha - 16 (a good party face)

attacks on charge whilst whirling
+33/+33/+28/+23/+18 doing 1d8 (say 5)+12 damage x 2 = 38 x 5 = 190... not much,
instead shock trooper to take your power attack from ac instead of attack bonus

+33/+33/+28/+23/+18 doing (1d8 (say 5) +12 + (BAB x 2)) x2 (multiplier) x5...
so
114 + 114 + 94 + 74 + 54 damage = 450 damage with only a single magic lance and a few feats.

this can be ALOT bigger but that is enough, just focus on those small attack bonuses

[JBPuffin]

if you want to be useful at high levels, i suggest 10 in int and ignore combat expertise.
feats to pick up -
wild cohort,
power attack
improved bullrush
shock trooper

all of this is obtainable by level 6 or 9 (im still not sure how to use the archive to find it).

i would either take a 1 level dip in barbarian for pounce, or get an item of the ranger spell lions charge (possibly made by an archivist so its much cheaper due to lower caster level). this will allow you to use all your attacks when charging on your mount.

use a lance for the charging multipliers.
i believe there are some obscure spells or items that give damage multipliers on the charge, i know there is a paladin based build that can do 50,000 damage on the charge. but you don't want that, you want a few hundred a round at level 20.
you could also take whirling frenzy instead of rage for an extra attack,
its not too cheesey, you are just a knight who has sampled the lifestyles and fighting styles of other cultures, then adapted their fighting to fit with your righteous and honourable combat.

having (in no order) barbarian 1/dragon shaman 1 (for continuous lesser vigor to half health)/knight 18 (prestige if you wish)
at level 20, without other things to give you extra attacks and assuming only a +5 weapon so you can buff this a lot more

str - 15 +5 from levels =20
dex - 11
con - 14
int - 8
wis - 8
cha - 16 (a good party face)

attacks on charge whilst whirling
+33/+33/+28/+23/+18 doing 1d8 (say 5)+12 damage x 2 = 38 x 5 = 190... not much,
instead shock trooper to take your power attack from ac instead of attack bonus

+33/+33/+28/+23/+18 doing (1d8 (say 5) +12 + (BAB x 2)) x2 (multiplier) x5...
so
114 + 114 + 94 + 74 + 54 damage = 450 damage with only a single magic lance and a few feats.

this can be ALOT bigger but that is enough, just focus on those small attack bonuses

So...this, but have Dragon Shaman on the entire other side of the gestalt, giving Knight 19/Barbarian 1//Dragon Shaman x/Other x...I like it. Barbarian/DrShaman at 2nd, change the ability scores on my current sheet, then just progress from there. Sweet, thanks Sideswipe. Now, what to do with breath...

[sideswipe]

So...this, but have Dragon Shaman on the entire other side of the gestalt, giving Knight 19/Barbarian 1//Dragon Shaman x/Other x...I like it. Barbarian/DrShaman at 2nd, change the ability scores on my current sheet, then just progress from there. Sweet, thanks Sideswipe. Now, what to do with breath...

with the breath have a look at this Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214007-3-5-Dragon-Shaman-Handbook). look at the metabreath feats in it. use it as a secondary attack againts groups of smaller enemies, since the ubercharger route will leave you a little vulnerable against groups.