Letter Dealing with Forgotten Realms as a setting for 5e and the Drow

[CyberThread]

A question was asked dealing with the drow goddess Eilistraee and what would become of her for the new realms shakeup


Thank you for your letter and follow-up email. It's always nice to hear from fans who are passionate about our game worlds, the Forgotten Realms in particular.


I can't speak much with regard to the story of Eilistraee thus far, as I was not involved in its creation or evolution. However, I know that during the 3E and 4E era, there was a attempt to shrink the enormous pantheon of FR gods, as well as an effort to paint the drow as being almost universally evil to make it clear that Drizzt Do'Urden is extraordinary. (The argument is that Drizzt becomes less of an iconoclast if there are good drow everywhere.)



Our thinking has changed somewhat with 5E. We would rather embrace the complexities of FR than oversimplify it. The Sundering (as told in recent novels) will enable us to restore all of the "lost" gods of the FR pantheon, including Eilistraee. I don't know the extent to which she'll feature in upcoming stories, but in our minds she is very much alive. I hope this news allays some of your concerns.


Cheers,


Chris Perkins
D&D Story/World-Building Lead
Wizards of the Coast LLC

[Falka]

http://www.gameinformer.com/resized-image.ashx/__size/610x0/__key/CommunityServer-Discussions-Components-Files/14492/2475.insanity_5F00_by_5F00_envidia14_2D00_d3f84ba. jpg

[pwykersotz]

PONY

That...was unexpected.


I love that they're embracing the complexities of the narrative. I have never had more fun with D&D than in delving into Planescape complexities, and I anticipate more fun to come if they keep rich and nuanced lore coming. :smallsmile:

[Baveboi]

D&D 5th ed. They simplified all that needed to be simplified and embraced the complexities in all things of lore.
*single manly tear* It is beautiful.
I... I thought I would never live to see this day.

[MeeposFire]

That...was unexpected.


I love that they're embracing the complexities of the narrative. I have never had more fun with D&D than in delving into Planescape complexities, and I anticipate more fun to come if they keep rich and nuanced lore coming. :smallsmile:

http://iambrony.dget.cc/mlp/gif/it%27s...%20ALIVE!!!.gif

[hamishspence]

I got the impression from the PHB and the MM that they were hammering home a more black-and-white picture:

"Good fiends are impossible - a fiend who turns good, ceases to be a fiend."

"Races created by evil deities have strong alignment tendencies toward evil"

and so forth. Gnolls, for example, are stressed as being super-evil, whereas in 3rd ed there were plenty of neutral gnolls.

[Eslin]

I got the impression from the PHB and the MM that they were hammering home a more black-and-white picture:

"Good fiends are impossible - a fiend who turns good, ceases to be a fiend."

"Races created by evil deities have strong alignment tendencies toward evil"

and so forth. Gnolls, for example, are stressed as being super-evil, whereas in 3rd ed there were plenty of neutral gnolls.

Apart from the gnoll ****up (I love gnolls, and turning them into lolevul demons is retarded), I think that works - the fiend thing especially. The incongruity of free will yet never having any good fiends ever has always bugged me, and this provides an interesting solution - it's no longer that for fiends being evil is a part of their physical makeup so they can never be good, it's now that for fiends being evil is a part of their physical makeup so if they become good they cease being fiends. That is cool as hell, and I can't wait to find out (or impatiently invent my own version of) what they become.

[hamishspence]

Simon R. Green's Nightside novels did have a fiend turn back into an angel, after sacrificing themselves for their loved one.

[Grayson01]

I read the Lady Penitent Novels which came right before the Transitions (switch to 4e) books timeline wise and Spoiler alert



Both of Loth's Children Vhaeraun and Eilistraee died as well as Selvetarm and Kiaransalee.

[Baveboi]

Spoiler to Grayson01 spoilers.

I have some insight on the new FR setting and I have heard through a... somewhat trustful source that the entire timeline from 4th ed will be scrapped for an alternate universe kinda deal. I don't know the details, nor does my source, but I am pretty sure a lot of stuff is as it was back in 3.5.

In the PHB there are spoilers to some settings in the gods and deities section at the end of the book. Mystra is listed there, as is the Three Bastards (Bhaal, Bane and Myrkul) which makes me think perhaps their own counter-measures to the timeline of the time of troubles might have finally sprung.

I can provide more information to those curious about the story of the Three and Jiergal's Pact. For the sake of being succinct I will just say that the pantheon is much closer to the Time of Troubles era. I don't think they are going to keep the timeline (at least the divine one) from 4th ed. Seriously, thought, that thing was atrocious.

[Grayson01]

Spoiler to Grayson01 spoilers.

I have some insight on the new FR setting and I have heard through a... somewhat trustful source that the entire timeline from 4th ed will be scrapped for an alternate universe kinda deal. I don't know the details, nor does my source, but I am pretty sure a lot of stuff is as it was back in 3.5.

In the PHB there are spoilers to some settings in the gods and deities section at the end of the book. Mystra is listed there, as is the Three Bastards (Bhaal, Bane and Myrkul) which makes me think perhaps their own counter-measures to the timeline of the time of troubles might have finally sprung.

I can provide more information to those curious about the story of the Three and Jiergal's Pact. For the sake of being succinct I will just say that the pantheon is much closer to the Time of Troubles era. I don't think they are going to keep the timeline (at least the divine one) from 4th ed. Seriously, thought, that thing was atrocious.

I agree the whole 4e line of books all kinda went down hill. Some of the books leading up to and into 5th have been quite good.

[Baveboi]

I agree the whole 4e line of books all kinda went down hill. Some of the books leading up to and into 5th have been quite good.

They are, surprisingly so!
I have always thought Ed's writing to be somewhat... lacking in 4th ed, but boy oh boy did he pick himself up again! Not to mention the plethora of other good writers that have been swimming in that sea.

[Falka]

As a drowbro, I've read Lady Penitent and there is a mention to Eilistraee's kingdom not dissapearing after her "death". When a god dies, his astral domain withers away. This wasn't the case with Eilistraee - it stayed. Corellon claimed it "to continue his daughter's war", which made me believe that Eilistraee's current state is "dead but still fixable".

Anyhow I always thought that any god in the FR can be revived anytime you want. Bhaal never really 'died' (Murder in Baldur's Gate spoils a lot of his return) - neither has Myrkul, who has tons of avatars hiding around, etc.

I want Eilistraee to return, and I'd like to see the Three Bastards as well. I want to see how Cyric reacts as he has such a big competition in the evil side now.

Also: will Asmodeus stay as a god, or will he lose godhood? I liked the concept of a devil becoming a god, tbh.

[DireSickFish]

Velsharoon was one of my favorite deities in Forgotten Realms ever since reading about him in Magic of Faerun. Had a very complex relationship with a large number of gods. If they don't bring him back officially then I may have to in one of my campaigns.

[Baveboi]

Also: will Asmodeus stay as a god, or will he lose godhood? I liked the concept of a devil becoming a god, tbh.

I don't think so. At least he is not listed in the PHB as a divinity of the main Faerunian pantheon. The Three Bastards are there and so is Leira (!!!) which puts a wrench right in the middle of Cyric's nether regions for they were the gods that the Liar slayed in the first place, with the help of Godslayer - Mask's avatar blade. So I don't know, it could be good. Plenty of opportunities for DDD (delicious divine drama) here.

If you want I can put the list of Faerunian Gods here. It's lengthy.

[CyberThread]

God of death and God of the dead is different

[Morty]

None of this would be a problem in the first place if not for the persistent idea to plow through Forgotten Realms every time a new edition comes out. At least now it seems they're scaling it back from the 4E vision of "FR for people who don't like FR".

As far as complexity and nuance goes, I'm not sure if you can make the jump from bringing back the huge pantheon and evil races other than drow being occasionally non-evil. The latter would be a departure from the old FR.

[T.G. Oskar]

Regarding Mystra:

Apparently, Midnight!Mystra's essence managed to survive within a bear, and because of some "Blue Flame" items that survived the Spellplague. Due to some stuff regarding the blend of the Simbul, gathering some items, and Elminster as a magic energy capacitor, Mystra recovered her lost power. This was either pre-Sundering or during the Sundering itself.

There's also the little factoid that Ao is planning to rewrite the Tablets of Fate, so...

In short: Ao is doing Cosmic Retcon, everything will return to what it was, except Dragonborn and Tieflings are cool, magic items are gonna be very rare now, and who knows what in heathenly tarnation will happen to the Aasimar.

[Baveboi]

There's also the little factoid that Ao is planning to rewrite the Tablets of Fate, so...

Let's do the tiiiime waaaarp agaaaaaaain! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sg-vgGuTD8A)

[Bakakiba]

I want to see the return of Finder Wyvernspur.

[pwykersotz]

<HOMEBREW>

For a bit of fun, I decided that in my world Boccob did the cosmic reset. Basically, in an effort to stop magic from dying, he went back and saved Mystara from death by counter-spelling Karsus. Now the two of them (after eons of Boccob gaining her trust) are working together to prevent the death of magic.

</HOMEBREW>

I did this about a month ago, so it's interesting to see certain similarities with the official lore being discussed here. :smallsmile:

[CyberThread]

<HOMEBREW>

For a bit of fun, I decided that in my world Boccob did the cosmic reset. Basically, in an effort to stop magic from dying, he went back and saved Mystara from death by counter-spelling Karsus. Now the two of them (after eons of Boccob gaining her trust) are working together to prevent the death of magic.

</HOMEBREW>

I did this about a month ago, so it's interesting to see certain similarities with the official lore being discussed here. :smallsmile:


Boccob... friggen boccob? u wat mate? You wanna have a go?


You litterily have an ENTIRE SETTING of mary sues, and you have to rip off another place ? I mean for ffs, why not azuth ?

[pwykersotz]

Boccob... friggen boccob? u wat mate? You wanna have a go?


You litterily have an ENTIRE SETTING of mary sues, and you have to rip off another place ? I mean for ffs, why not azuth ?

:smallbiggrin:

I suppose Azuth might work as well, if the end I was going for was just to have Mystara saved. Boccob is actually the main character of this story though, I'm interested in his struggle to save magic and I think that there's some potential for interesting interactions in the meta-story for him having tried this. It comes from my most recent 3.5 campaign where Boccob was one of the deities of a player and chronomancy shenanigans were happening.

[Thrythlind]

Vhaerun Drow - complete culture, semi-psychotic, but actual culture

Eilistraee Drow - complete culture

Lloth Drow - Lloth plays the Sims

[edge2054]

This thread reminds me why I don't like FR. I really hope we get another campaign setting where the non-human races act like individuals rather than stereotypes and the pantheon works as an integrated whole.

[CyberThread]

This thread reminds me why I don't like FR. I really hope we get another campaign setting where the non-human races act like individuals rather than stereotypes and the pantheon works as an integrated whole.



Okay trying to be edgy.. I understand....


FR has multiple cultures and races, it makes point to think of having multiple gods, for different cultures be real things. Like greeks had zues and romans had jupiter.


An the races do act more then sterotypes :), You have the many arrows kingdom, drizzit, and well... it isn't eberron which I will admit is much more varied.

[Scots Dragon]

Trying to compare Eberron to the Forgotten Realms in complexity and nuance without using the word 'less' is laughable[/]. The Forgotten Realms is in fact a vast and multifaceted setting at pretty much every level, with an amount of development which [i]far dwarfs the amount which went into Eberron. The elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings and otherwise each have dozens of different cultures and backgrounds; not all of them are detailed, but the elves of one region are in stark contrast to the elves of another region even within the same basic sub-race. One reason why I hated 3e and 4e so much was that their handling of the setting was to try and simplify the complexities, and to also derail some of the better stories from the earlier eras.

The drow alone have as many different cultures as they have city-states, with one of the most notable settlements outside of Menzoberranzan being Sshamath, which is run largely by male drow wizards who don't have any particularly religious leanings. The surface elves have a variety of approaches from Evermeet's scholars to Evereska's soldiers to the High Forest's druids, and yet we also see that the complexity works in nuanced ways. The elves of Myth Drannor had just as much of an appetite for intrigue and back-stabbing as the drow of Menzoberranzan, albeit with more redeeming features given that the place was ruled by good-aligned forces rather than evil-aligned forces, showing that perhaps the ways of the drow are not too alien when compared with the ways of the elves from which they derive; the dark elves are still fundamentally elves.

And to declare the Forgotten Realms to be a setting of stereotypes rather than individuals is basically as wrong as you could possibly get. The setting was practically built upon individual complexity and diversity being pretty much a core concept.

[edge2054]

Okay trying to be edgy.. I understand....


FR has multiple cultures and races, it makes point to think of having multiple gods, for different cultures be real things. Like greeks had zues and romans had jupiter.


An the races do act more then sterotypes :), You have the many arrows kingdom, drizzit, and well... it isn't eberron which I will admit is much more varied.


I'm not actually trying to be edgy, the name came from a SR character I played a long time ago and it's just easier to use the same screen name in multiple places then to come up with something new every time I want to make a forum account. So if you want to discount my opinion, which I stated simply as an opinion, based on my forum name go right ahead.

Anyway...

The action in FR games almost always happen in human kingdoms, at least in my experience which is fairly extensive. Non-human characters always felt out of place. All their family ties in far away distant lands. Halflings being the only exception but that exception always felt under developed. The alignment tendencies also stifle creativity. I want evil elves, chaotic dwarves. I want races that run the gamut of personality types.

I want non-human heroes that matter in the campaign setting aside from a dash of elven blood to make someone edgey (haha pun time!) and cool like our buddy Khelben.

The non-human deities barely existed within the scope of what happened during the time of troubles. Aside from backstory the non-humans seem to have very little impact on Realms lore.

It's a pet peeve of mine brought on by many years of playing in that setting because my DM loved it so much. In that time I played hardly any non-humans. Not because of some power advantage but because I got bored of playing refuge from a distant land after the first elven character I rolled.

You can check my forum posts here for a similar issue. I'm currently playing a wood-elf rogue for HotDQ and guess what, the character is a refuge! I asked for help with the background and the board went straight for orphan. Not quite being able to envision someone being a street urchin for 20 years the character was adopted by a kindly gnome. Either way though, the setting is very biased towards humans and if you're not playing one you probably don't have any ties to what's going on.

There's exceptions of course. Waterdeep. Playing in non-human kingdoms (which just reverses the issue).

Other people can like it. That's fine. I don't. I think it's boring and I hope they either put some effort into integrating the other races better or give people like me another published option.

[Daishain]

This thread reminds me why I don't like FR. I really hope we get another campaign setting where the non-human races act like individuals rather than stereotypes and the pantheon works as an integrated whole.
Yeah, I'd love to drop the racial sterotypes as well. The reversal with the Drow, that was made expressly for the purpose of making even more money off of the Marty Stu character known as Drizzt, is particularly annoying. But the pantheon? Leave it be so far as I'm concerned.

They're a collection of diverse beings with their own personalities, their own agendas, and their own means of gaining power, and while they are often in equilibrium, conflicts can cause quite a few... side effects that spill into the mortal realm.

It is a breeding ground for epic plotlines that will never be forgotten by the players who are swept up in them.

[Surrealistik]

I really hope Asmodeus remains a god and _the_ iconic god of evil. The way he ascended, stopped the Blood War, uprooted and punted the Abyss into the sun (Elemental Chaos) after he got real tired of its bull**** was the single best part of 4e's changes to the D&D cosmology.

[CyberThread]

I really hope Asmodeus remains a god and _the_ iconic god of evil. The way he ascended, stopped the Blood War, uprooted and punted the Abyss into the sun (Elemental Chaos) after he got sick of its bull**** was the single best part of 4e's changes to the D&D cosmology.



which is interesting, because that is the one part that pissed off most people who are into FR lore. I mean you already have several evil gods, how do you define "sin". Also blood war is coming back, when your archdevil of everything, why would you want to weaken yourself by becoming a god and tied down to more rules that gain you no real benefits ?


I mean lore wise, he became a God, and then nothing really all that big happened, he consolidated his power, and did nothing with it.

[pwykersotz]

I really hope Asmodeus remains a god and _the_ iconic god of evil. The way he ascended, stopped the Blood War, uprooted and punted the Abyss into the sun (Elemental Chaos) after he got real tired of its bull**** was the single best part of 4e's changes to the D&D cosmology.

I should read up on that. However, for now I disagree. I was very sad when Asmodeus became a god. I think it makes him even more scary that he's the King of Hell and is NOT a deity. Of course, I may have been a little influenced by Afroakuma, so there is that. :smalltongue:

[Surrealistik]

which is interesting, because that is the one part that pissed off most people who are into FR lore. I mean you already have several evil gods, how do you define "sin". Also blood war is coming back, when your archdevil of everything, why would you want to weaken yourself by becoming a god and tied down to more rules that gain you no real benefits ?


I mean lore wise, he became a God, and then nothing really all that big happened, he consolidated his power, and did nothing with it.

I'd say stopping the Blood War and reshaping the face of the multiverse is pretty well the definition of 'doing something with it'; only by achieving godhood and exercising his newfound power was this possible, so I'd say he was both strengthened by the apotheosis, and derived quite a few benefits from it. Asmodeus with godhood is definitely scarier than Asmodeus without.

So far as subsequent plans went, I'd assume that yes, he was consolidating power and convalescing from the strain of what he just did while setting the stage for his next big power play (now that the massive resource sink that was the Blood War no longer existed).

[edge2054]

Yeah, I'd love to drop the racial sterotypes as well. The reversal with the Drow, that was made expressly for the purpose of making even more money off of the Marty Stu character known as Drizzt, is particularly annoying. But the pantheon? Leave it be so far as I'm concerned.

They're a collection of diverse beings with their own personalities, their own agendas, and their own means of gaining power, and while they are often in equilibrium, conflicts can cause quite a few... side effects that spill into the mortal realm.

It is a breeding ground for epic plotlines that will never be forgotten by the players who are swept up in them.

I like that the FR God's act like a bunch of spoiled teenagers. I liked that about the greek pantheon too. What I don't like is that Torm and Moradin for instance seem to hardly realize the other exists even though they have very similar portfolios and should be working together for the greater good.

Really I think the issue stems from earlier editions when non-humans had level caps. The campaign world naturally became human dominated because humans were the only race that could really produce heroic characters. It's a case of the game rules shaping the setting. The rules have changed but the setting never caught up.

[Dralnu]

I really hope Asmodeus remains a god and _the_ iconic god of evil. The way he ascended, stopped the Blood War, uprooted and punted the Abyss into the sun (Elemental Chaos) after he got real tired of its bull**** was the single best part of 4e's changes to the D&D cosmology.

I remember reading in multiple places (non-FR, generic D&D), that if the fiends/demons weren't preoccupied in the Blood War they'd immediately turn around an obliterate the celestials. Was there any aftermath to Asmodeus ending the war?

[CyberThread]

I remember reading in multiple places (non-FR, generic D&D), that if the fiends/demons weren't preoccupied in the Blood War they'd immediately turn around an obliterate the celestials. Was there any aftermath to Asmodeus ending the war?



Not really, I mean nothing happened during actual play, this was all " stuff in the past" sort of thing. It was more about less alignments then anything, and shoving the main setting while simplifying the FR setting.


As someone else has said. 4e FR, was the forgotten realms for the folks who didn't like the forgotten realms.



The published books really went down during the time period, as a bunch of authors didn't like the change over either :(

[Dralnu]

That's not even a FR thing is it? I thought the Blood War was a staple of generic D&D universe since forever. I don't understand why they'd do away with it, especially if they didn't plan anything afterwards.

Some more questions for you FR folks: are binders/vestiges part of FR lore? And what's up with Chult? Is Ubtao coming back with the Sundering? With Mezro destroyed during the Spellplague and Ubtao gone(?), are the barae dead too, including Ras Nsi? Also, is there any good book I should start with if I want to learn more about FR but specifically the Sundering or whatever the current timeline of FR is that 5e deals with?

I ask because I dream of writing for Wizards (or a third party) some day and if FR is the official setting for 5e, I'd like to know as much about current events in that setting as possible. I've been using the FR wiki, 4e campaign setting, and a few other supplements as resources, but woefully lacking on the current timeline.

[Scots Dragon]

As someone else has said. 4e FR, was the forgotten realms for the folks who didn't like the forgotten realms.

More to the point, it also seemed to be the Forgotten Realms that was custom designed to offend and alienate the people who did like the setting as it was. It wasn't even a case of people being offended at minor changes; it was such a radical departure that it was pretty much a new setting with some of the same names slapped on - and often in the wrong places - in order to try and pretend to be related to something better. It felt like the cheap knock-off version.

It's actually the biggest reason why I went over to Pathfinder. That game's campaign setting felt like it fit in alongside Mystara, Greyhawk, Dragonlance and the Forgotten Realms of my childhood; the game that was currently calling itself D&D felt alien to me on every level.

I wonder if the people who became fans with Dungeons & Dragons 4e are now feeling the same way given this radically and drastically altered paradigm.

[Daishain]

I wonder if the people who became fans with Dungeons & Dragons 4e are now feeling the same way given this radically and drastically altered paradigm.
I am generalizing here, probably to an unfair degree, but the people particularly enamored with 4e don't seem to be the type to give a damn about the details of the setting.

Of course, that may have been both the point and the problem.

[Durazno]

The Blood War didn't really stop so much as go into a cold phase. I remember that one of the hazards you could find on the first level of the Abyss was devilish raiding parties, and many of the archdemons wanted to get back to killing devils, but feared that their fellows would stab them in the back the moment they committed any of their strength to it. I don't know what it's like for the devils, but the demons were limiting one another from being able to go on rampages throughout the multiverse.

[CyberThread]

Some more questions for you FR folks: are binders/vestiges part of FR lore? if you looThey fit in a way with some online stuff that was released during the 3e days, if you look in the tome of magic book, you will find the viestage and that anti magic humans, who were from the guy who killed the 1st mystra due to trying to steal the mantle of the goddess of magic.


And what's up with Chult? Unknown, we haven't been given deep level stuff yet.

Is Ubtao coming back with the Sundering?Same answer

With Mezro destroyed during the Spellplague and Ubtao gone(?), are the barae dead too, including Ras Nsi?SAme Answer

Also, is there any good book I should start with if I want to learn more about FR but specifically the Sundering or whatever the current timeline of FR is that 5e deals with? The sundering set of books that were realm shattering events, also check out the forgotten realms wiki, it won't give you a perfect picture, but you can follow the links to various names and subjects that intrest you and get a great overview look on stuff that can read and gobble up.

I ask because I dream of writing for Wizards (or a third party) some day and if FR is the official setting for 5e, I'd like to know as much about current events in that setting as possible. I've been using the FR wiki, 4e campaign setting, and a few other supplements as resources, but woefully lacking on the current timeline.

The setting is still very much in the air, 5 of the main authors of the FR came together with Ed Greenwood, to restore things. They are doing a soft reset back to the older settings and brning back some of the old gods with them also. It is also what is making planescape come back with it.




bunch of stuff typed out

[SaintRidley]

I really hope Asmodeus remains a god and _the_ iconic god of evil. The way he ascended, stopped the Blood War, uprooted and punted the Abyss into the sun (Elemental Chaos) after he got real tired of its bull**** was the single best part of 4e's changes to the D&D cosmology.

Every ounce of that is part of the destruction of one of my favorite parts of the pre-4e cosmology. I want it all reversed.

[Telwar]

I am generalizing here, probably to an unfair degree, but the people particularly enamored with 4e don't seem to be the type to give a damn about the details of the setting.

Of course, that may have been both the point and the problem.

I never gave a damn about FR regardless of the edition I played in, and that's having read a good chunk of the early-mid 90s FR novels. Hell, I've never played a game set in the Realms, and never felt like I missed anything.

In 3e it was certainly a good source of stuff to mine, but I personally liked Eberron and Birthright better.

[CyberThread]

I never gave a damn about FR regardless of the edition I played in, and that's having read a good chunk of the early-mid 90s FR novels. Hell, I've never played a game set in the Realms, and never felt like I missed anything.

In 3e it was certainly a good source of stuff to mine, but I personally liked Eberron and Birthright better.


How do you feel about the 4e change though? The 4e default setting made him a lord of sin, and I think he got forced shoehorned into FR because of it.

[Surrealistik]

I remember reading in multiple places (non-FR, generic D&D), that if the fiends/demons weren't preoccupied in the Blood War they'd immediately turn around an obliterate the celestials. Was there any aftermath to Asmodeus ending the war?

So far as I can tell, Asmodeus ended up retreating into convalescence from the strain of dramatically reordering the multiverse as he consolidates power and machinates his next big power grab (notably without the diversion of the Blood War).

Meanwhile, without the devils to fight, the demons have turned on each other.



Every ounce of that is part of the destruction of one of my favorite parts of the pre-4e cosmology. I want it all reversed.

I never understood what the attraction of the Blood War was; I've always found it a stale and uninteresting part of the mythos personally.

[Reisa]

I'll admit, I was one of the players that absolutely cursed up and down my room about the changes 4e made to FR, especially the change to Asmodeus. I just felt like it was just so stupid.

However, after reading the excellent Brimstone Angel series, I was fairly impressed with the way it fit into the cosmology and helped standardize tieflings a little better (which had to be done to keep them a PHB race, I felt).

Like with all major events, some of the changes were good, some were bad. Some of the bad changes were handled really well by authors and subsequent releases.

My one concern with the cosmic retcon is the return of Greenwood's army of Mary Sues--the Seven Sisters and other Chosen of Mystra. I have yet to read a story where their invulnerability and know-it-all aspects didn't strangle any sort of conflict or mystery out of their involvement. It's like taking a party of level 20 characters with 20 in every stat through the Lost Mines of Phandelvar who had the special ability: on dice roll, maximum result.

Honestly, the villains in FR are so much more interesting than the good guys. At least the villains are flawed and don't always win by doing nothing. Except for Cyric. Cyric seems to be the token evil Greenwood character. Just gets away with everything.

[CyberThread]

I never understood what the attraction of the Blood War was; I've always found it a stale and uninteresting part of the mythos personally.



I think it was meant more for high level stuff, then it was for book readers. Folks do love an evil campgin.

[T.G. Oskar]

As someone else has said. 4e FR, was the forgotten realms for the folks who didn't like the forgotten realms.

To be honest, it didn't make FR attractive to me. If I want a traditional, high-fantasy setting, I have Greyhawk to work with, and fortunately the latter wasn't altered to all hell in 4e (as far as I know; Points of Light was not truly Greyhawk by any stretch of the word). If anything, it made me feel bad for the setting, even if it didn't made me lose any of the spite; it was torn apart, big bits of the setting completely changed to fit the new concept of the game, and it made it feel disjoined.

As for ultrapowerful characters: it all depends on how they're used, and how they're restrained. It only becomes a problem when you're expected to share the setting with them; unless you admire them, you'll always feel overshadowed. The Circle of Eight was a clever way to restrain the most powerful spellcasters, and I take Mordenkainen as an example: a 20th level Wizard, easily the most powerful character in the universe barring, well, Elminster and the gods, but besides being Neutral (and with a vision of maintaining the balance rather than being uninterested), he also keeps the others in control. There is a tense balance between each of the members of the Circle, which range from Good to Evil, and from immensely powerful to quirky. A DM having Mordenkainen suddenly appear upon your party is doing one of two things: a mistake (a grave mistake, lore-wise), or intends to make your party more important than it seems to have what's probably one of the most powerful mortals in the setting simply look at you. If he's there, you're important to the Balance, or the long-term plans of his. And even then, it might feel like you're being overshadowed.

It's one of the reasons why I personally prefer Eberron; the most powerful characters aren't determined by numbers, but by influence, and yet you're expected to meet that influence soon enough. You don't have Erandis or Kaius or Boranel or the Great Druid Oalian suddenly solve problems for you; even Jaela would have problems helping you.

That doesn't mean I completely abhor the Realms, nor that a DM can't make a good story in the Realms just because of the looming "there's someone better than you" thing. Returning to "making ultrapowerful characters viable in a story", I always use the example of Magneto: he's one of the most powerful mutants in his world, superior in many aspects to a good deal of heroes, and he has shown so. However, his powers are not meant to instantly solve everything; it's his absolute mastery of his powers that enables him to do so; in other words, that's what happens when you optimize a character without choosing the easy way. Doctor Strange is far, FAR more powerful than Magneto is, but he's a Wizard; imagine how difficult it is when a writer has to use him. Most of the time, he's used as a consultant, and when he acts, is because things have gone way too far for any hero to solve, but still not enough for the real powerhouses to act (say, the Living Tribunal).

To make the allegory fit the theme: Elminster (and Mordenkainen, and why not peg Raistlin while at it?) is much like Doctor Strange, and thus is hard to use effectively. However, whereas Doctor Strange is pretty much alone (people like Thor, who's a demigod, can't truly match him in potential, and it takes the likes of Odin, Thanos or Dr. Doom to match him) in his "tier", Elminster has both a whole bunch of allies (the other chosen) and enemies at the same level. It'd be hard to peg someone on the Realms as Magneto, if only because it's rare to see someone that meets popularity, worldwide threat and extraordinarily creative use of its powers (I'll be really wrong, but the closest thing I can see would be Entreri, Drizzt's long-time rival, and even he's not at the level of Elminster, not even by chance). It might also be that gods interfere TOO directly, which is kind of a problem with the mighty Thor in Marvel, honestly. And then there's also Drizzt, who has just so much traction that it's reaching Cullen-levels of spite for me. Part of it is that the bulk of the stories that move the Realms aren't done by the mundane or supernatural heroes like the Avengers (sans Thor) and the X-Men (sans the Phoenix), but by Doctor Strange and Odin fighting against the likes of Dormammu at a daily basis. When that happens, why would you feel like a hero?

That said: it seems the new direction on the Realms might take cues from Legend of the Five Rings' CCG tournaments, though also from 4e Organized Play: have the PCs serve as context for the story. So as long as the end-game is the PCs (of all factions and classes) dealing with Tiamat and not the big-time players, the Realms might have a chance. Me? I'll wait until there's Organized Play in Eberron, thank you very much.

[Telwar]

How do you feel about the 4e change though? The 4e default setting made him a lord of sin, and I think he got forced shoehorned into FR because of it.

Eh. The spellplague and the timeline jump were probably a bit much, but I figure they assumed that players were used to RSEs and that they just would take this as yet another one. The "other half" of Abeir jamming into Toril was not bad, SFAICT, though there were probably easier ways of getting dragonborn into the setting (and tieflings were already there, or so I thought).

[MeeposFire]

The problem is that FR has this odd idea that it has to change everything with the edition. That is why you have all these crazy things going on every time there is an edition change. 4e was no different in that regard. On the other hand you have Eberron which fluff wise did not change much if at all in the conversion because that was not its tradition to change everything just because there was a change in mechanics.

[CyberThread]

Eberron also does not honor the paperbacks. paperbacks may as well be fan fiction.



FR, paperbacks mean something, and proably why the sales of the books are the flagship for wizards book line.

[MeeposFire]

Eberron also does not honor the paperbacks. paperbacks may as well be fan fiction.



FR, paperbacks mean something, and proably why the sales of the books are the flagship for wizards book line.

That of course is done on purpose because people like Keith explicitly did not want the novels determining the story of the setting. The story canon is what your group makes it and that is the intention. FR has the intent that everything that happens in a book and elsewhere is canon. There are plenty of people out there that actually do not like that and it is one of the common complaints about FR in that the setting is designed to change with time but multiple people will be at different levels of knowledge of the setting at a given time. The people that tend to like the fact that the setting is tied so closely with the books are often the people that also get annoyed when they find out there adventures later conflict with canon due to a new book or what not.

Another interesting fact is that two different authors for Eberron can have two completely unrelated canons which is simultaneously interesting and frustrating.

When I play FR I just set a time period and keep with it and I don't care that the canon changes. Of course at the same time I don't really care for most of what they do in the novels anyway in reference to the game (though I may like the novels). I would actually prefer playing in the setting when it first came out rather than playing what occurred in 2e and 3e.

[Beleriphon]

Another interesting fact is that two different authors for Eberron can have two completely unrelated canons which is simultaneously interesting and frustrating.

Actually it has about a dozen if you count that each novel (or series of stories) has no impact on the other ones.


When I play FR I just set a time period and keep with it and I don't care that the canon changes. Of course at the same time I don't really care for most of what they do in the novels anyway in reference to the game (though I may like the novels). I would actually prefer playing in the setting when it first came out rather than playing what occurred in 2e and 3e.

I do the same, unless I specifically want to pull in some details about the novels.

[Scots Dragon]

When it comes to discussions of Forgotten Realms canon, I always like to quote what the 3.0e Campaign Setting has to say about things.


Rule 1: It's Your World
This campaign setting is packed with details about Faerûn and the world of Toril, but the book provides only a broad sampling of the people, places, and things the world contains. The real details are left up to you. Make additions as you see fit. For example, if you need a village, a small town, or a dungeon in some locale to make an adventure work out right, go ahead and add it.

Likewise, the details in this book reflect what the people of Faerûn know about their world - but only you know the truth. So if your players read this book and try to dictate details of the world for you ('No, the river runs through Silverymoon!'), stand firm. It's your world. Don't be a slave to the map or this book, and don't be afraid to alter anything you want to.

Or to put it a bit more simply; the Forgotten Realms has a set of unreliable narrators - or possibly even a set of alternative timelines - and ignoring the details from an individual novel, sourcebook or game is perfectly reasonable for an individual gaming group. The setting has never been intended to be some kind of hobble for most gaming groups.

ALSO important is the second rule...


Rule 2: Make the PCs the Stars
Faerûn is home to numerous established characters: Drizzt Do'Urden, Elminster, Scyllua Darkhope, and Artemis Entreri, just to name a few. But Faerûn is a big place - big enough for many heroes and many stories. Your campaign should focus on your PCs, with the rest of the world and the other characters as a backdrop.

It's okay to allow your PCs to cross paths with an important NPC once in a while (after all, these NPCs are part of what makes Faerûn a unique and colourful place), but your PCs should confront and explore the world on their own terms. When you create an adventure, create it for your PCs. Don't assume that some powerful or famous NPC is going to drop in and make things right if the heroes falter. Let your PCs handle the consequences of their own failures and reap the rewards for their own successes.

Or to put it simply, 'Campaigns should probably be built under the assumption that Elminster is probably not going to teleport in and become your own personal over-powered DMPC.'


There are of course similar statements in earlier products from 1e and 2e which also went ignored because the existence of these statements pretty much shuts down two of the most major complaints that people have about the setting. The result of course is the growing and almost painful realisation that not only was D&D 4e's take on the Realms a sort of Forgotten Realms for people who didn't actually happen to like the Forgotten Realms, it was the Forgotten Realms made to address specific complaints that really did not actually apply to the Forgotten Realms. Instead they were complaints that were made by people who did not in fact know much about the setting at all.

In fact, let's have a look at what the AD&D 1e Campaign Set says;


Each FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign should be different, reflecting the personality and gaming needs of the players and the DM. Some campaigns comprise just a group of adventurers fighting their way through dungeon settings without much thought of the outside world, while others are filled with storytelling and legends, and still others are on the grand scale of high-level individuals challenging great powers, ruling huge empires, and engaging in political skulduggery. The FORGOTTEN REALMS setting is intended as a base for all these types of adventures, allowing the DM to tailor it to his desires. There is no rule stating that every AD&D campaign must be alike, nor is there one stating that every FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign must be identical.

The AD&D 2e Campaign Setting has a near-identical passage with some of the wording adjusted a little bit but retaining the same basic message.

Why people keep forgetting this stuff is quite beyond me.

[Princess]

My theory - Leira, the 2e Goddess of Illusion and Lies, who supposedly got killed, has just been toying with everyone. All of the supposedly missing deities just went to hang out with her because they knew things were about to get crazy and wanted to stay out of all the nonsense.

And in celebration of the Sundering, Garagos should rip somebody important in half, because making a God of Bloodlust and Plunder and not using him in a game in which a large number of players are murderous drifters is just too much opportunity wasted.

Also, as per embracing the complexity of *all* of FR, we need fresh materials on Maztica and Kara-tur - including what's up with the Celestial Bureaucracy, et c.

[CyberThread]

Planescape has also been promised as a bridge between various settings , as Dark Sun and Dragonlance will also get some love.

[ScrivenerofDoom]

(snip) and so forth. Gnolls, for example, are stressed as being super-evil, whereas in 3rd ed there were plenty of neutral gnolls.

Really? Where?


(snip) I have some insight on the new FR setting and I have heard through a... somewhat trustful source that the entire timeline from 4th ed will be scrapped for an alternate universe kinda deal. (snip)

No, that is not happening and for one simple reason: Salvatore's books.

The timeline is being kept but many of the changes from the Spellplague era are being unwound. But the timeline remains in place. Personally, I think the timeline reset makes more sense but Salvatore is protective of his books and WotC makes more money off them than anything else FR-related.

[RazDelacroix]

I've got a story to share. It's a personal one that involves my brother as well as I. See, it was my older bro who introduced me to tabletop gaming back in the mid-90's. When he and I went to the gaming store, we sorta-kinda skipped a book. We skipped the AD&D 2nd Edition Player's Handbook.

We got the Planescape Campaign box.

That little bit right there? Was glorious to my young mind. In about a week we got the actual PHB and a DM's guide to boot. But I will never forget those first few days of pouring over the lore of Planescape. And not too long after, something else happened.

We got Everquest, brought that game home, found out it was Online only, and so we went BACK to Walmart and traded it in for Baldur's Gate.

It was glorious.

And at this point, my only prior exposure to drow was from watching the anime Record of Lodoss War on Saturday mornings on the Sci-Fi Channel. I never even HEARD of Drizzt until I got to a point in the game where I accidentally came across him while pondering, 'Who's this second drow? Is he going to be Neutral Evil too?'

I thought this, because my first D&D exposure to drow was in the form of one very Charisma & Dexterity endowed cleric of Shar. Viconia, bless her spidersilk-silver mane of hair, was awesome. I frequently cheered her on as I played through Baldur's Gate I & 2 (Shadows of Amn). I saw her grow from a haughty and arrogant drow priestess to, well, a well-written and competent arrogant drow priestess with divine might to back her up.

As I became further learned in things Drowy and how expansive D&D was, I frequently formed my own notions and as 3rd & 4th edition rolled up and through I kept it in my mind that there was always more than one culture of drow, elves, dwarves, tieflings, humans, buttercup-wielding psycho halfling cannibal psychics, and even bug people!

Imagine my relief that when I read through the 5th edition of the Players Handbook, that I saw not one pantheon. Not two. Nine. That's three by three. Six plus 3. 27 divided by 3. And yes, even 10 - 1. The ONLY time I saw that many pantheons in one place before hand was either on the internet, or on the back of a poster-sized map of the Outer Planes (which came with that Planescape Campaign box set!).

Heck, I was even ecstatic when the 5th Edition DMG had the Dawn War pantheon of 4th Edition! *waves Avandra flag* I am a kind and very cruel DM and I like options for my campaign worlds. Neat and tidy official options go a long way to helping cement in my player's minds that what I could propose is not too off-the-mark from what D&D is about.

So there I am, reading through the Elf subraces in the PHB, when I come across the drow entry. Sure, it mentions that they were usually cruel and evil as a society. And yet, it never flickered through a moment in my mind that that meant they were non-playable. I have gotten to witness a drow priestess rise above her hatreds and accept something as alien as love into her life. I have witnessed a drow selflessly risk her life to save a human knight from a dragon's wrath. I read of the conflict that would create one of the most iconic drow heroes. I laughed and smiled as Roy of Order of the Stick mentioned female dark elf cavalier riding on a unicorn wielding two lances.

So yeah, Forgotten Realms has a ton of novels and lore and all that fun jazz. And for my games, I'm gonna nab whatever I need from that setting for my own selfish gaming experiences. Then, I'm going to institute a company run by drow alchemists who sell top-shelf poisons and concoctions for competitive prices while breeding silk-spinning spiders to corner the fabric market while experimenting with bullet-proof chitin/silk armor crafting.

One of these days, I'm going to make a dark elf fighter with the gunslinger archetype, and I'm going to flip a coin for gender.

Cause that's how I roll. On a d2.


Then, I'm going to call up my big brother, and thank him.

Then, I'm going to question him why we ever thought Everquest had an offline single-player campaign.

[CyberThread]

Really? Where?



No, that is not happening and for one simple reason: Salvatore's books.

The timeline is being kept but many of the changes from the Spellplague era are being unwound. But the timeline remains in place. Personally, I think the timeline reset makes more sense but Salvatore is protective of his books and WotC makes more money off them than anything else FR-related.


Ed, Paul, and a few other authors are heavy hitters for the brand and make just as much money as R.A. as they actually publish books in a timely manner.

Now as for Gnolls, they were a mostly evil race like orcs, not an always evil race. Sort of like how drizzit and the good drows are a thing. 3e really did well in the listings by doing this one VERY simple trick


Alignment: Usually chaotic evil


*top 20 best sellers on amazon **

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Books-Forgotten-Realms-Dungeons-Dragons-Gaming/zgbs/books/468366

[Princess]

@CyberThread

That was always part of the appeal of Planescape and Eberron to me, and to some extent FR - Those settings are clear about exceptions to every rule. I loved seeing the very first Eberron campaign book explicitly state that there were exceptions to even the "Always Chaotic Evil" creatures - as well as the "Always Lawful Good" ones.

[Envyus]

It's being implied that Asmodeus is just being depowered from a Greater God into a Lesser God.

[Steampunkette]

After a tragic backstory and years of training a hero emerges with no magic, no magic items, and only a handful of martial weapons to be so powerful he can stand toe to toe with demigods and they turn to him for advice and help, sometimes even rescue, because he is capable of doing almost literally everything, at any time, against the most overwhelming odds and massive armies of brutish thugs. All the while bemoaning his tragic background and barely staying this side of 90s superhero movie wangst.

That is the biggest Marty Stue ever. And his name is Batman.

Male character Marty Stues are rarely recognized as such unless someone has a personal bias against the character. Yet Drizzle is almost universally accepted as the big Marty Stue of FR.

Interesting!

[CyberThread]

It's being implied that Asmodeus is just being depowered from a Greater God into a Lesser God.



Can you link this please, because everything printed so far as shown him to lose his divinity and return to just being a the lord of hell.

[Ralanr]

After a tragic backstory and years of training a hero emerges with no magic, no magic items, and only a handful of martial weapons to be so powerful he can stand toe to toe with demigods and they turn to him for advice and help, sometimes even rescue, because he is capable of doing almost literally everything, at any time, against the most overwhelming odds and massive armies of brutish thugs. All the while bemoaning his tragic background and barely staying this side of 90s superhero movie wangst.

That is the biggest Marty Stue ever. And his name is Batman.

Male character Marty Stues are rarely recognized as such unless someone has a personal bias against the character. Yet Drizzle is almost universally accepted as the big Marty Stue of FR.

Interesting!

I ended up questioning if Driz'zt was one after I read his story (through the comic version of the first three books so I probably missed stuff). The very act of him not being anything like the drow from birth bothers me the most.

Sure his father had the same feelings, but I just don't see how such a society can foster those thoughts. Maybe those that had them just didn't live long?

Telling me he's blessed by a god doesn't really help.

Eh, I can't say I really like Driz'zt all that much. I don't hate him, I've only read the icewind dale trilogy so I can't say I know enough about him.

[hamishspence]

Really? Where?


The 5e MM. 4e also had them as much more overtly evil (MM, and Dragon Magazine).

[MeeposFire]

The 5e MM. 4e also had them as much more overtly evil (MM, and Dragon Magazine).

I think it is an attempt to give them a special niche that takes from the previous lore of worshiping that one demon lord. There are a lot of humanoids in teh game and sometimes it is nice to get a niche for each. For instance hobgoblins are the militant well trained evil humanoid.

I also think that this basic lore is potentially suspended in settings that have significant differences from it such as Eberron (where tehy often hire themselves off as mercs).

[Princess]

3E seemed to imply Gnolls were essentially chaotic neutral, and that the Always Chaotic Evil majority were the result of the demon Yeenoghu taking a liking to them and bending them to fit his image. Eberron especially takes the "they're definitely chaotic, but evil came later, and not for all of them" approach.

This maps pretty well to how FR presents Drow - they weren't evil until an evil extra-planar entity corrupted them (In the case of Drow, Lolth)

5E is going back to what 2E had them as, which was the playthings of Yeenoghu first and foremost (indicating he may have created them in the first place), which still means some of them would be CN, but they would be renegades rather than 'natural gnolls.'

[MeeposFire]

3E seemed to imply Gnolls were essentially chaotic neutral, and that the Always Chaotic Evil majority were the result of the demon Yeenoghu taking a liking to them and bending them to fit his image. Eberron especially takes the "they're definitely chaotic, but evil came later, and not for all of them" approach.

This maps pretty well to how FR presents Drow - they weren't evil until an evil extra-planar entity corrupted them (In the case of Drow, Lolth)

5E is going back to what 2E had them as, which was the playthings of Yeenoghu first and foremost (indicating he may have created them in the first place), which still means some of them would be CN, but they would be renegades rather than 'natural gnolls.'

Actually I think gnolls have a more lawful bent to them in Eberron. I recall tehm being instrumental in keeping the nation of Droamm under any sort of semblance of control.

[Ralanr]

Actually I think gnolls have a more lawful bent to them in Eberron. I recall tehm being instrumental in keeping the nation of Droamm under any sort of semblance of control.

They have gnolls in Eberron?!

I like it even more now!

Not sure why I enjoy gnolls. I don't know much about their game represented cultures aside from some basics (then again I like rewriting lore so that anything not an outsider is more flexible in their alignment choice, and outsiders are more blue and orange).

[MeeposFire]

They have gnolls in Eberron?!

I like it even more now!

Not sure why I enjoy gnolls. I don't know much about their game represented cultures aside from some basics (then again I like rewriting lore so that anything not an outsider is more flexible in their alignment choice, and outsiders are more blue and orange).

In Eberron gnolls are used effectively as a police force in the nation of Droamm and as mercenaries to bring in money outside of those borders.

[Ralanr]

In Eberron gnolls are used effectively as a police force in the nation of Droamm and as mercenaries to bring in money outside of those borders.

http://cdn.alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/png/surprised-rainbow-face.png

[MeeposFire]

http://cdn.alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/png/surprised-rainbow-face.png

Here is a cover for Sharn City of Towers which is a nice rule book for a major city in teh setting where a party is being attacked by gnollish mercenaries...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/Aegeri/sharn-1.jpg

[Ralanr]

Here is a cover for Sharn City of Towers which is a nice rule book for a major city in teh setting where a party is being attacked by gnollish mercenaries...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/Aegeri/sharn-1.jpg

Words cannot describe how much I love everything in that picture.

Hopefully this picture can substitute my feelings.
http://i45.tinypic.com/emz46.jpg

[Mith]

(then again I like rewriting lore so that anything not an outsider is more flexible in their alignment choice, and outsiders are more blue and orange).

That's generally my take on things as well. I would say that the dominate cultural influence might dictate alignment, but a convincing backstory can make whatever alignment you want.

[MeeposFire]

Words cannot describe how much I love everything in that picture.

Hopefully this picture can substitute my feelings.
http://i45.tinypic.com/emz46.jpg

Sounds like Eberron might be for you. I highly recommend the 3e setting book. It is the most complete for your needs and can give you a lot of good ideas for the setting which you can then tailor to your 5e campaign if you want. It is one of the few books in 3e that I will read for fun with no mechanical concerns what so ever (something I tend to more with AD&D books).

[T.G. Oskar]

After a tragic backstory and years of training a hero emerges with no magic, no magic items, and only a handful of martial weapons to be so powerful he can stand toe to toe with demigods and they turn to him for advice and help, sometimes even rescue, because he is capable of doing almost literally everything, at any time, against the most overwhelming odds and massive armies of brutish thugs. All the while bemoaning his tragic background and barely staying this side of 90s superhero movie wangst.

That is the biggest Marty Stue ever. And his name is Batman.

Male character Marty Stues are rarely recognized as such unless someone has a personal bias against the character. Yet Drizzle is almost universally accepted as the big Marty Stue of FR.

Interesting!

Really? I thought Silver Age Superman was a bigger Marty Stu than Batman...

Thing is, that's the problem when you apply the concept of a Mary Sue to an established character - particularly a polarizing character (see: Drizzt, Sephiroth). Take a character that is really popular, add any number of devoted fans with very vocal tendencies, and you'll get a relatively equal number of detractors which are likewise vocal. As the number of fans and detractors becomes higher, the chance that said character is placed under the Mary Sue trait test approaches one. THEN, assuming the character has more than half of the following traits in parenthesis (a tragic backstory and an unusual way to cope with it, several victories against overwhelming odds, unusual friendships with very powerful individuals [note: the closer to reality-warping, the worse], unusual abilities, MacGyver-esque levels of problem-solving, stories gravitating towards the character), the chance that said test leads to a Mary Sue accusation approaches one.

You're free to correct this...theorem, if you wanna call it? Anyways, let's go one step further - you claim that Drizzt is considered FR's biggest Marty "Stue" (sp), right? How about...

A character who is the son of royalty, whose family died tragically, and had to spend his life as a common mugger.
Got the attention of what's probably the most powerful deity in the world, second only to THE world's Overgod
Became the deity's priest(ess), before learning the ways of magic
Became the deity's chosen one, and arguably the most powerful mage in the world, second only to the Magister
Has several daughters, one of them being a member of royalty
Has a very close tie to what's probably the world's biggest force for good
Has several lovers, one of which is said deity that chose him
Brought his beloved deity back from the dead
Went to Hell...and survived!
Is functionally immortal, due to losing the ability to age and also have a set of contingent spells that can protect him from most anything
Can break the rules of being unable to cast magic in an area where it's impossible for others to do so, because of his status as the chosen of the deity?
Oh, and did I mention that he could fix the world's problems with a flick of the fingers, but he doesn't because...I dunno, mutually assured destriction? The Overgod would punish him? Eh...

Sounds familiar, right? Congratulations - that is Elminster Aumar, the Chosen of Mystra. So yeah - Drizzt is most likely not the biggest Marty Stu in the Forgotten Realms...that probably goes to Elminster, which has the even worse accusation of being an Author Avatar. Probably helps to prove your point?

And yet: without Elminster and Drizzt, the Forgotten Realms wouldn't be as popular. They are larger than life characters, whose influence was such that they helped shape the world through their stories. Only the Companions of the Last Home (sp?) in Dragonlance did as much. Compare to Greyhawk, which has a menagerie of famous people (Mordenkainen, Bigby, Tenser, Rary, Melf, Lord Robilar, Iggwilv, the Dark Prince Grazzt, Iuz, et als), but is nowhere near as popular as the Forgotten Realms because it remained primarily as a campaign setting rather than a fully-fleshed world. Or Eberron...honestly, can you mention someone that can be considered larger than life that doesn't belong to royalty or to a religion, that could be as instantly recognizable as Elminster, Drizzt, Artemis Entreri, or...heck, why not Tasslehoff Burrfoot?

Consider (in itself somewhat paradoxical), that, sometimes, the detraction of these characters is a paradox; bordering on hypocrisy, but only because it's a fair request. To explain: someone (heck, let's go with myself) doesn't like Drizzt because of its popularity (and how it has altered the perception of an entire race), but wouldn't mind if someone closer to its tastes would be equally as popular. The hypocrisy comes because, if the tables were to turn, then I'd be forced to make the same defense ("X character is considered a Mary Sue because of bias"). The fairness comes because it does point something: the characters are so wildly popular that nobody is doing something to expand the world, or the other settings, away from these characters; ergo, it's a request for variety. There's a bunch of characters in the Forgotten Realms, and the only one who can reach the levels of popularity that Drizzt and Elminster have is...Minsc and Boo. Really - the guy is Forgotten Realm's Deadpool: someone who comes from a very popular game, and now is making his tour around the Forgotten Realms because people still fondly remember him. And, come to mind, he's nowhere near a Marty Stu: in fact, referring to Deadpool to explain his popularity is, IMO, spot-on. There are comics, cameos, and even an expansion of the game where he first appeared just because they're riding on his popularity. Wouldn't it be fair to have characters on the other settings that are just as popular, to the extent that they invite people to engage into the other settings, rather than play it safe and keep riding on the established popularity of well-established characters whose adventures invite to comparisons with the dreaded Mary Sue?

Hope this rant is enlightening. Give more love to Jeets; Coyle can go...exploring the ruins where you find him on his own, for all I care. In case you don't get it: both are DDO references. Jeets is one of the starting "companions" for the tutorial quest, and he reappears on a pretty hilarious quest; ergo, he has a chance to be popular if his story could be expanded, even if he's a pretty bare-bones Halfling Rogue. Coyle, on the other hand, is a really annoying NPC from an escort quest that was, and still is, infamous for being a poor warrior AND spellcaster who felt like pulling off a Leeroy Jenkins...and your mission is to keep him safe! Thus, annoying as all hell. Just an example of what would happen if someone like Jeets became popular enough to make people look Eberron with other eyes, and thus increase the setting's popularity enough to expand the setting beyond the game itself - exactly what Elminster and Drizzt did for the Forgotten Realms...and in a way, an example of the "fair request". Even though I'd prefer a Paladin MC, myself :P

[Ralanr]

Sounds like Eberron might be for you. I highly recommend the 3e setting book. It is the most complete for your needs and can give you a lot of good ideas for the setting which you can then tailor to your 5e campaign if you want. It is one of the few books in 3e that I will read for fun with no mechanical concerns what so ever (something I tend to more with AD&D books).

I've had an interest in Eberron (It's pretty much the only thing that's dungeon punk) for a long time, but I've never actively tried to find source books for it.

[MeeposFire]

I've had an interest in Eberron (It's pretty much the only thing that's dungeon punk) for a long time, but I've never actively tried to find source books for it.

It was my group's preferred setting for 3e and 4e adventures. We had a level 1-20 campaign in 3e in the setting using published adventures and my own ideas. Whispers of the vampire's blade was a very popular adventure for my group. The main villain was very memorable as was the set events in the adventure. It makes for a great one shot.

[Envyus]

Can you link this please, because everything printed so far as shown him to lose his divinity and return to just being a the lord of hell.

The 5e Monster Manual. Its says he has the Power of a Lesser God.

[CyberThread]

The 5e Monster Manual. Its says he has the Power of a Lesser God.


No he has the power equal to that of a .....he is not one .

[Rken42]

Does anyone have more info about this? I have a story I've been working on since 3e about a 1/2 Drow 1/2 wood elf becoming a follower of Eillistraee (among many other things). I gave up for a bit after finding out what happened in 4e but I REALLY want to get this out there without having to resort to just publishing as fanfiction or trying to find a replacement for Eillistraee.

[Beleriphon]

Does anyone have more info about this? I have a story I've been working on since 3e about a 1/2 Drow 1/2 wood elf becoming a follower of Eillistraee (among many other things). I gave up for a bit after finding out what happened in 4e but I REALLY want to get this out there without having to resort to just publishing as fanfiction or trying to find a replacement for Eillistraee.

She's back in 5E. So you can still go with that if you're playing in the updated time line.

[DizzyWood]

I want to see the return of Finder Wyvernspur.

YES!!!! I loved those books!