Highest LA?

[torrasque666]

What is the highest base Level Adjustment you've ever found on a creature? The highest I've ever seen is the Ocean Strider (MM2, 163) with an LA of +35. Anyone seen bigger?

[Andezzar]

You may want to look again. MM2 is 3.0 and as such does not even know the concept of LA. The 3.5 update to that book gives the ocean strider LA:-.

As to which creature has the highest LA, I'm to lazy to go through all the books. Unless you mean a specific entry, you can always stack lots of templates for a ridiculously high LA.

[torrasque666]

well, it does have LA actually. You just have to read a bit. And I was mistaken in my reading anyway. I forgot to discount the 30 RHD. Ended up with a LA+5. Though I suppose you're right in regards to the 3.5 update

[AvatarVecna]

It depends on what exactly you're looking for. If you're looking for a race intended for building as a character, the Mind Flayer, Ogre Mage, and Rhakshasa all fit the bill: each has LA +7 and rules for making them into a PC race. If you're just curious as to what has the largest natural LA, the Hezrou Demon (LA +9) is what you're looking for.

I'd like to point out that I went through the MM3 first, just so that I wouldn't be disappointed when I did so; I knew when I began my search that, with LA being such a flawed mechanic, the place it would be understood the least would be in the original WotC material for the edition that used it: the 3.5 Monster Manual.

My hunch was proven correct: at its best, the MM3 had several +5 and a few +6 races; the rest either had lower LA, or LA -, indicating their intended use (as monsters). But in the MM, I didn't even reach the 100th page before I found so many winners: there was one LA +9, and 3 or 4 LA +10 monsters. There were 3 separate LA +7 monsters with stats intended for PC use! The LA +7's were all after page 100, but still!

Anyway, that's what I've found for you. Barring a 3.5 update (ala Savage Species rules) for monsters from the ELH, I don't think we're going to get much better than this.

[TiaC]

The Sillit type of Nerra from the Fiend Folio has an LA of +18! With its 7 RHD this CR 6 monster has an ECL of 25.

[ShurikVch]

Shiradi Eladrin (BoED) have 12 HD and LA +12

Bleeder Beholder from the Dragon Compendium have LA +16 and 10 HD

Is a 3rd-party stuff OK?

Denizens of Dread (Ravenloft) have example Human Vorlog at LA +15, and vampires: LA +13 (Human Chiang-Shi, Elven Vampire, Human Nosferatu), +14 (Gnomish Vampire, Halfling Vampire, Human Vrykolaka), and +16 (Dwarven Vampire)

Shadows & Light (Warcraft RPG) have Eternals (template LA +13):
Agamaggan (47th-level barbarian) LA +13
Aviana (23rd-level rogue/14th-level sorcerer) LA +13
Queen Azshara (27th-level sorcerer/16th-level wizard) LA +15
Cenarius (36 HD + 20th-level druid of the wild) LA +13
Elune, Goddess of the Moon (85th-level healer) LA +13
Malorne (35th-level healer/10th-level druid of the wild/10th-level hunter) LA +13
Ursoc and Ursol (24th-level fighter/21st-level healer) LA +13
Lord Xavius (31st-level sorcerer) LA +13

Al’Akir the Windlord - 48 HD, LA +13
Neptulon the Tidehunter - 96 HD, LA +13
Ragnaros the Firelord - 64 HD, LA +13
Therazane the Stonemother - 80 HD, LA +13

Alexstrasza the Life-Binder - 50 HD, LA +17
Malygos the Spellweaver - 52 HD, LA +18
Neltharion the Earth-Warder (Deathwing) - 55 HD, LA +16
Nozdormu the Timeless - 50 HD, LA +17
Ysera the Dreamer - 50 HD, LA +17

Aggramar the Avenger (40 HD + 26th-level fighter/10th-level gladiator), LA +19
Aman’Thul the High Father (45 HD + 20th-level healer/10th-level druid of the wild/10th-level shaman), LA +20
Eonar the Lifebinder (39 HD + 25th-level healer/10th-level druid of the wild), LA +19
Golganneth the Thunderer (45 HD + 17th-level barbarian/16th-level fighter), LA +20
Khaz’goroth the Shaper (40 HD + 20th-level expert/20th-level fighter), LA +19
Norgannon the Dreamweaver (45 HD + 37th-level Wizard), LA +20
Sargeras the Destroyer (40 HD + 22nd-level fighter/10th-level warlock/6th-level sorcerer), LA +19

[Necroticplague]

Anyway, that's what I've found for you. Barring a 3.5 update (ala Savage Species rules) for monsters from the ELH, I don't think we're going to get much better than this.

Actually, technically a lot of whats in the ELH is playable. In the book (but not the SRD, for some reason), there is a chart that lists the ECL of everything in it (most of its being N/A). And notably, you're wrong about the LA being massive. In fact, if you work backwards to determine LA (RHD+LA=ECL of a monster, so ECL-RHD=LA), most of them actually have NEGATIVE LA to make up for having things like 44 RHD (Hagunemnon: 44 RHD, ECL 36. LA:-8). And a few just have ECL=RHD, making them LA:0 (off the top of my head, Prismasaurus and Old Prismatic Dragon).

[Svata]

Ulitharids have 14 RHD and 12LA.

[ShurikVch]

Actually, technically a lot of whats in the ELH is playable. In the book (but not the SRD, for some reason), there is a chart that lists the ECL of everything in it (most of its being N/A). And notably, you're wrong about the LA being massive. In fact, if you work backwards to determine LA (RHD+LA=ECL of a monster, so ECL-RHD=LA), most of them actually have NEGATIVE LA to make up for having things like 44 RHD (Hagunemnon: 44 RHD, ECL 36. LA:-8). And a few just have ECL=RHD, making them LA:0 (off the top of my head, Prismasaurus and Old Prismatic Dragon).
Indeed! :smallsmile:
Anaxim
Brachyurus
Chichimec
Dragon, advanced great wyrm
Dream larva
Force dragon, adult
Hoary hunter
Infernal
Lavawight
LeShay
Mu spore
Neh-thalggu
Phane
Prismatic dragon, old
Prismasaurus
Shadow of the void
Shape of fire
Sirrush
Sirrush, three-headed
Slaad, black
Slaad, white
Tayellah
Thorciasid
Titan, elder
Treant, elder
Vermiurge
Winterwight

Atropal –22
Hagunemnon –8
Hunefer –23
Ruin swarm –25
Uvuudaum –8

Demilich (template) LA +8
Gibbering orb LA +4
Gloom LA +5
Ha-naga LA +6
Paragon (template) LA +11
Pseudonatural (template) LA +13
Worm that walks (template) LA +4

Mercane is weird. In the table it have ECL 7, thus should be LA +0. But in the monster description it says: "Player character mercanes have a level adjustment of +7." Since text trumps table...

[Andezzar]

well, it does have LA actually. You just have to read a bit. And I was mistaken in my reading anyway. I forgot to discount the 30 RHD. Ended up with a LA+5. Though I suppose you're right in regards to the 3.5 updateNo. No 3.0 Monster has an LA. That mechanic did not exist in 3.0. For 3.5 there is no subtracting of RHD to deduce an LA. Both are separate properties. A creature's ECL (Effective Character level is equal to its RHD + Class Levels + LA.

[torrasque666]

No. No 3.0 Monster has an LA. That mechanic did not exist in 3.0. For 3.5 there is no subtracting of RHD to deduce an LA. Both are separate properties. A creature's ECL (Effective Character level is equal to its RHD + Class Levels + LA.

So even if it is a 3.0 book, what do you call this then?

An ocean strider PC’s effective character level (ECL) isequal to its class level + 35. Thus, a 1st-level ocean strider
ranger has an ECL of 36 and is the equivalent of a 36thlevel
character.

It has 30 HD, and it says that a 1st level character has an ECL of 36, thus the extra levels must be LA.

[Andezzar]

While this would be a reasonable deduction, the book never calls the difference between RHD and ECL LA. It merely states that the ECL is it's class level +35. The term did not exist in 3.0.

[Divide by Zero]

While this would be a reasonable deduction, the book never calls the difference between RHD and ECL LA. It merely states that the ECL is it's class level +35. The term did not exist in 3.0.

But it's functionally identical, so you're just arguing semantics here.

[Andezzar]

No, it's not. It is is not called LA and thus is not eligible for any rules referring to LA (like the reduction mechanic).

[torrasque666]

Which is an optional rule that didn't exist at the time. So your point really is.....? That and any DM with a brain can do simple deduction and determine that its the same, even if it doesn't have a line in the table.

[Urpriest]

No. No 3.0 Monster has an LA. That mechanic did not exist in 3.0. For 3.5 there is no subtracting of RHD to deduce an LA. Both are separate properties. A creature's ECL (Effective Character level is equal to its RHD + Class Levels + LA.

...Savage Species was 3.0, and introduced LA. So I'm not sure where you got that impression.

Granted, some books either came before LA (FRCS IIRC) or came before it was finalized and thus confuse it with ECL (Fiend Folio). But LA certainly existed in 3.0.

[ShurikVch]

...Savage Species was 3.0, and introduced LA. So I'm not sure where you got that impression.

Granted, some books either came before LA (FRCS IIRC) or came before it was finalized and thus confuse it with ECL (Fiend Folio). But LA certainly existed in 3.0. Certainly, it existed.
There was also "Level Adjustment" section at the start of Chapter 5: Monsters in the Epic Level Handbook (FIRST PRINTING: JULY 2002), and "Level Adjustment" sidebar in the Oriental Adventures (published at October 2001)

[Andezzar]

I stand corrected.


Which is an optional rule that didn't exist at the time. So your point really is.....? That and any DM with a brain can do simple deduction and determine that its the same, even if it doesn't have a line in the table.The point is that in 3.0 the Ocean Strider did not have a property called LA, in 3.5 it has LA:-

[AvatarVecna]

Regardless of whether this monster has LA +5 or LA -, it still is so far behind everything else people have found, that it's not really worth debating.

Savage Species introduced the LA rules to 3.0; there's other stuff WotC has put out designed for making 3.5 versions of 3.0 monsters. Either we're using that stuff to determine the effective LA of 3.0 monsters for the purposes of this exercise, or we're not.