Some Thinky-Thoughts About Hobbie-Gobbies

[Gnome Alone]

It seems like Hobgoblins get just about the shortest end of the stick that WOTC offers to beat you with until you don't wanna play a "monster" race anymore. LA+1 for Darkvision and +2 DEX and CON, basically. Kiiiind of a rip-off.

Now of course, that is still pretty good, but like always we gotta compare it to being Human: is Darkvision and +4 ability points worth more than an extra feat and a kajillion extra skill points? I imagine it would largely depend on the build, but my twisty lil' guts tell me that Da Hobs are roughly equal in value to us filthy humans, not way better.

Nevertheless, it seems to be a common sentiment that hobgoblins are a little too strong to be LA +0. So! What would you do to make them either:

a) slightly weaker and thus LA +0?

or,

b) slightly stronger and thus (actually worth) LA +1?

Which one did you pick and why? Please show your work.
(This will be on the test.)

[eggynack]

I would just keep them as is and make them LA +0. Lesser aasimar gets basically the same exact stuff, and they're LA +0, and that's good enough justification for me, especially when high physical stats tend to be associated with low tier characters while high mental stats tend to be associated with high tier characters. Maybe lesser aasimar are too good for their LA, but the standard is at least present in the game. There are also other LA +0 races with abilities approximately in scale with what a hobgoblin offers, or even on a higher level, including anthro bats, strongheart halfings, and yes, humans. LA +0 would make hobgoblins quite good, but it wouldn't break the game, or create a must-take race.

[Thanatosia]

There is no way a feat and some skillpts is worth +4 stats and darkvision. Just getting +1 to a stat is an Epic Feat. I think they are balanced fine, esp if you play with the ability to buy off LA.... just get 3 class levels under your belt and that LA can go away forever for a few thousand xp, a bargain price for +4 stats that stacks with pretty much everything.

Edit: Lesser aasimar is pretty much a poster child for OP races and I see them in optimization threads everywhere, I would not look at them for a good guideline to 'balance'.

[Fax Celestis]

There is no way a feat and some skillpts is worth +4 stats and darkvision. Just getting +1 to a stat is an Epic Feat. I think they are balanced fine, esp if you play with the ability to buy off LA.... just get 3 class levels under your belt and that LA can go away forever for a few thousand xp, a bargain price for +4 stats that stacks with pretty much everything.

Really? Because +2 Int is equivalent to +1 skill point a level, and a feat is equivalent to +1 skill point a level (see: Nymph's Kiss), so +1 skill point/level and a feat is about +4 to stats.

And they're not even the really great stats. Yes, most martials want STR, and everybody wants CON, but DEX gets applied to practically everything, INT gives you ridiculous skills, and CHA is capable of splitting the game in half between Diplomacy and UMD. And neither STR or CON are casting stats.

Racial attribute mods are pretty overrated anyway.

I would leave them as-is and make them LA+0.

[eggynack]

Edit: Lesser aasimar is pretty much a poster child for OP races and I see them in optimization threads everywhere, I would not look at them for a good guideline to 'balance'.
If the game is fine with having a race of that sort, then I don't much see the issue with having a second. As is, lesser aasimar are quite good on certain builds, mostly clerics, but they're not so much better than other options that they crowd them out, and they're not a significant level of power on most classes. LA +0 hobgoblins would be quite good, and would make for an optimal choice for a number of builds, but they wouldn't likely be the only or necessarily best choice for those builds, and other builds would just stick with their current best races, apathetic about the change. Seems perfectly fine to me.

[Gwendol]

I like the hobbs, but the LA +1 is a little offensive. Compare with Goliaths for example.

Hobgoblins are disciplined and martially-inclined. Kind of the spartans of the goblinoids. A racial bonus feat, or a racial ability to display this feature would be a way to make the race more interesting.

[Gnome Alone]

And they're not even the really great stats. Yes, most martials want STR, and everybody wants CON, but DEX gets applied to practically everything, INT gives you ridiculous skills, and CHA is capable of splitting the game in half between Diplomacy and UMD. And neither STR or CON are casting stats.

Racial attribute mods are pretty overrated anyway.

I would leave them as-is and make them LA+0.

I mostly agree with what you're saying, but I think you're thinking that the hobblygobblies have have +2 STR and CON, but it's actually DEX and CON. Which kind of undermines your argument (in that DEX is purty darn useful) except the part about racial attribute mods not being a big deal anyway.


I like the hobbs, but the LA +1 is a little offensive. Compare with Goliaths for example.

Hobgoblins are disciplined and martially-inclined. Kind of the spartans of the goblinoids. A racial bonus feat, or a racial ability to display this feature would be a way to make the race more interesting.

Even though I personally fall into the "ehhh, just LA +0" camp, I think giving them stuff to boost up the value of that LA is more interesting, yeah. How about some free martial weapon proficiencies? If they're so militarily inclined and all.

Of course, by the same token we could justify giving the hemoglobins a CHA penalty; a Spartan-like martial culture would probably suppress the sense of individuality, of self.

And a net total of two attribute points plus Darkvision is sure as butts not worth LA +1. Which reminds me, I've also toyed with the idea of giving players a choice between the DEX or CON bonus at 1st level.

Hey, come to think of it, why don't goblinoids get the same racially-motivated killing bonus to dwarves that dwarves get against them? What, dwarves hate the very sight of goblins and train to kill them from birth, but goblins are just like, "oh hey, dwarves again, doo-be-doo"?

[Thanatosia]

Because +2 Int is equivalent to +1 skill point a level
I'm just at a loss how you think this is a rational statement. 2 int is overwhelmingly better then +1 skillpoints per level. If you're playing a class that has absolutely no other way to use int, then 1skillpoint per level is what you still get out of it. But you don't balance stats around their worst-case-scenario applications unless its somehow restricted.... whenever you weigh the balance of a +int mod, you assume you're balancing it around a wizard or other int class. For a lot of characters int does vastly more then skillpoints, not the least of which is setting spell DCs that are massively important and extremely difficult and resource intensive to nudge in any other way.

Racial attribute mods are pretty overrated anyway.
How so? They are the next best thing to an untyped bonus. I think you are undervaluing them.

[eggynack]

How so? They are the next best thing to an untyped bonus. I think you are undervaluing them.
They're definitely good, but they're much worse than the game values them. I mean, you yourself cited the fact that boosting a stat by one costs an epic feat, and that's just not what that boost is worth. There are a number of standard feats that I would very strongly consider taking over those epic feats a pretty high number of times, and that's true for a pretty good number of builds. We can also look right at what we're talking about, the hobgoblin, and see the ridiculous ways they value stats in this game.

It's a thing that applies to players too, I think. Again, yes, they're quite useful, but stats aren't the end all and be all of things to have. We're usually just talking about pretty standard numbers bumps, and even on a caster, you can definitely do well enough without them. You do get a big pile of effective feats, but the feats tend to be pretty mediocre compared to even a single really good feat. To use a moderately extreme example, if I had to choose, I'd rather have greenbound summoning than the pile of spell focuses, extra slots, and stat whatevers that a stat bump provides. Looking at it another way, in a choice between a lesser rod of extend spell and a +2 periapt of wisdom, I'm probably going with the rod.

[Psyren]

Use the Pathfinder versions. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-hobgoblin) +2 Dex, +2 Con, LA 0, other bonuses, and great alternate racials to replace them (e.g. Pit Boss, which gives them free Whip proficiency.)

[Gwendol]

Nice! That should work just fine.

[Gnome Alone]

Yeah hey, that's more like it. Classy.

[Inevitability]

Make them LA +0 and take away the dexterity bonus. Still good, but nothing compared to the strong races (human, lesser Aasimar) and the very-much-supported races (elf, dwarf)

[Jeff the Green]

Even though I personally fall into the "ehhh, just LA +0" camp, I think giving them stuff to boost up the value of that LA is more interesting, yeah. How about some free martial weapon proficiencies? If they're so militarily inclined and all.

What I did for a player was to give them an ability that halves the ACP for Hide and Move Silently and lets them sleep in armor without becoming fatigued, plus scent and a free Iron Heart maneuver and stance, which are upgradeable as your IL increases. I think that puts them up there with Goliath and Dark Whisper Gnome, and plays on the racial connection to Iron Heart.

[Gwendol]

Scent is a little over the top IMO, but Iron heart maneuvers and stances are really good.

[Greenish]

Scent is a little over the top IMO, but Iron heart maneuvers and stances are really good.I would almost go the other way. Getting maneuvers from a race seems a bit weird, Scent is something goblinoids (bugbears, by default) do have.

Slap in Scent, Endurance*, and, say, weapon familiarity with bastard swords, spiked chains, and dire flails, and it should work alright.


*(The feat is better than just "sleep in armour", even if it doesn't cover heavy armour, since it can work as a prerequisite for stuff.)

[Gwendol]

Hmmm, yeah why not. I kind of had bugbears cornering the scent department, but sure: endurance and exotic weapon proficiencies are all good.

[Greenish]

Well, bugbears need some tinkering on their own, what with the RHD. There was a thread about playable goblinoids just the other day.

[Gwendol]

Is the humanoid RHD that bad?

[Forrestfire]

There is no way a feat and some skillpts is worth +4 stats and darkvision. Just getting +1 to a stat is an Epic Feat. I think they are balanced fine, esp if you play with the ability to buy off LA.... just get 3 class levels under your belt and that LA can go away forever for a few thousand xp, a bargain price for +4 stats that stacks with pretty much everything.

Edit: Lesser aasimar is pretty much a poster child for OP races and I see them in optimization threads everywhere, I would not look at them for a good guideline to 'balance'.

The strongest LA +0 races are probably Lesser Aasimar, Web Enhancement Kobold, Warforged, (Dragonborn) Water Orc, Human, Strongheart Halfling, and Necropolitan Grey Elf. Of these, I'd say the strongest of them are Human and Strongheart, or the zombie elf in the right class. If you've got humans in your game, a hobgoblin as-written is perfectly fine at LA 0, in my opinion.

The bonus feat is just that good.

[eggynack]

Is the humanoid RHD that bad?
It's like taking three levels in a somewhat worse version of warrior. That's a pretty bad thing when bugbear stuff is what you're getting out of the deal.

[Gwendol]

Ah yes, good analogy.

[Greenish]

Is the humanoid RHD that bad?Medium BAB, good Ref, 2+int skills, d8 hitdice. Better than commoner, worse than any other NPC class. For three levels of that and a +1 LA on top, you'd have to get a lot better stuff for it to be worth it.

For comparison's sake, Marrulurk is 3 RHD +1 LA, but with Monstrous Humanoid RHD, meaning full BAB and two good saves (on top of all the other goodies). Thri-Kreen is 2 or 3 RHD (I forget) +1 LA (for non-psionic), and again, Monstrous Humanoid.

[Gwendol]

Yeah, I keep mixing those two up (monstrous and humanoid).

[ThisIsZen]

My inclination is to bring them down to LA +0, but that's largely because I despise the LA system and prefer to bring EVERYTHING down to LA +0, no matter how far I need to drag them.

This is what I hashed out for my game, largely predicated on the idea that Hobgoblin racial traits are boring. The PHB races all get something interesting that isn't necessarily JUST skill points and vision, so just keeping the Hobgoblins as is and calling them LA +0 might work but it feels fairly flavorless.


+2 Con, -2 Cha
A hobgoblin's base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision 60 feet
Martial Heritage: Hobgoblin characters who do not gain proficiency with all martial weapons may choose one martial weapon and gain proficiency with it. Hobgoblin characters who gain proficiency with all martial weapons may instead choose one exotic weapon and gain proficiency with it.
+2 Knowledge (architecture and engineering) and Knowledge (law): Hobgoblins are consummate nation-builders and are innately predisposed to the skills needed for this task.
+2 racial bonus on Craft checks to create mundane arms and armor: Military production is central to most Hobgoblin states and they have raised the act to a near-artform.
Automatic Languages: Common, Dhakaani.
Favored Class: Pick one of Fighter, Warblade or Warmage
LA: +0

[Forrestfire]

Why would a highly organized, social race with strong force of will have -2 Cha?

[ThisIsZen]

Y'know, that's a fairly good point. Maybe make it a Wis penalty instead - I'd keep the Cha for my setting because I don't want to make Hob clerics unappealing and Cha is the weaker of the two stats for clerics, but the standard-issue MM hobgoblins would probably be better suited to a Wis penalty than Cha.

[Eldan]

I just don't like races with positive ability modifiers on level one. 0/0 is fine, +2/-2 is fine. Anything that's +2/+2/-2/-2 is already uncomfortable. +2/+2 with no penalties just looks wrong, that's LA territory. Of course, they aren't good enough to be that, either, so that's problematic. I'd either make them a +2/-2 race or give them some other abilities.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm just at a loss how you think this is a rational statement. 2 int is overwhelmingly better then +1 skillpoints per level. For your typical character that's all it'll do.

How so? They are the next best thing to an untyped bonus. I think you are undervaluing them.

They are tiny bonuses, not targetable to whatever stat you want, not capable of being changed past selection, unable to be augmented, and completely supplantable with cash.

[Chronos]

I'm having a hard time thinking of any character where skill points are the only thing you get from Int. Fighters get qualification for Expertise and the rest of that chain. Rogues get Search and Disable Device. Druids and clerics get Spellcraft and Knowledge (Nature or Religion). And of course, some classes like wizard and factotum get tons of things from it.

Besides which, "for a typical character" reasoning is the same thing that gave us the horribly-balanced races of Savage Species: Sure, an anthropomorphic bat is a terrible fighter, but he's an amazing cleric or druid. And being a terrible fighter is irrelevant, because nobody is going to play an anthro bat fighter... but they are going to play anthro bat divine spellcasters.

On the value of hobgoblins, compare them to dwarves, which are usually considered a solid choice for a race (even if not necessarily the best): Dwarves' two big advantages are that they get a +2 to Con (with a -2 to a stat most characters don't care about), and they get darkvision. Hobgoblins get both of those, plus instead of -2 to a dump stat, they get +2 to a stat that helps everyone at least a little.

One other option nobody's mentioned yet is to replace LA with a different balancing mechanic that allows for finer distinctions. One proposal I've heard, for instance, is to allow LA races right from level 1, but that you get a permanent 10% XP penalty for every point of LA, so it'll take you longer to level up (though I've never actually tried that so I don't know how well it works in practice). If you're using a system like that, then you could give hobgoblins "half an LA": Give them a 5% penalty instead of 0% or 10%.

[Fax Celestis]

On the value of hobgoblins, compare them to dwarves, which are usually considered a solid choice for a race (even if not necessarily the best): Dwarves' two big advantages are that they get a +2 to Con (with a -2 to a stat most characters don't care about), and they get darkvision. Hobgoblins get both of those, plus instead of -2 to a dump stat, they get +2 to a stat that helps everyone at least a little.

Those are not dwarves' two big advantages.

Dwarves can wear heavy armor with no speed penalties.

Dwarves get free exotic weapon proficiency with two weapons.

Dwarves get a +4 bonus to resist being bull-rushed or tripped (which not only makes them better at resisting, but better at doing those things for those few times when they fail and the opponent gets to attempt a counter).

Dwarves get a +2 on saves vs spells and spell-like effects. Globally.


Let's try something.


+2 Constitution, -2 Charisma.

Medium size.
A dwarf’s base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.
Darkvision out to to 60 feet.
Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. Dwarves have a sixth sense about stonework, an innate ability that they get plenty of opportunity to practice and hone in their underground homes.
Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
Stability: Dwarves are exceptionally stable on their feet. A dwarf has a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. *Not reflected in the saving throw numbers given here.
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. *Not reflected in the saving throw numbers given here.
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs (including half-orcs) and goblinoids (including goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears).
+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against creatures of the giant type (such as ogres, trolls, and hill giants).
+2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
+2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.


Automatic Languages: Common, Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, Undercommon.
Favored Class: Fighter.


+2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom.

Medium size.
A hobgoblin's base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to to 60 feet.
Guerrilla: A hobgoblin may select either the Guerrilla Scout or Guerrilla Warrior feat as a bonus feat at first level.
Weapon Familiarity: Hobgoblins may wield bastard swords one-handed without the use of the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat.
]Tunnel Fighter: Hobgoblins are exceptionally good at fighting within constrained quarters. A hobgoblin gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC when adjacent to a wall. This bonus increases to +3 when adjacent to two walls.
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against dwarves and gnomes.
+1 racial bonus on initiative checks.
+2 racial bonus on Knowledge checks that are related to martial lore.
+2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to crafting weapons and arms.


Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Dwarf, Giant, Gnome, Orc, Terran, Undercommon.
Favored Class: Fighter.

[Gnome Alone]

Why would a highly organized, social race with strong force of will have -2 Cha?

It really depends on what one sees Charisma as representing, but if we see it in large part as a sense of self, it wouldn't be too crazy to say that their martial culture is soul-crushing and devalues the individual as such, preventing the hloblogoblos from achieving self-actualization. And if we wanna run Charisma as mainly about social skills, training to kill people all the time probably doesn't make you very personable and neighborly.

[squiggit]

The idea that a race literally defined by its strong social structure and military organization would have the same level of social graces and leadership as an Orc or goblin seems beyond wrong

[Segev]

Here's another thought that I kept running into as I tried to approach an answer to this thread's question: What is the actual difference between a hobgoblin and an orc? What differences are there, fluff-wise, and with that said, how would you represent them mechanically such that having hobgoblins and orcs as separate races actually matters? Rather than just giving a different physical description when the monster shows up.

[Psyren]

Here's another thought that I kept running into as I tried to approach an answer to this thread's question: What is the actual difference between a hobgoblin and an orc? What differences are there, fluff-wise, and with that said, how would you represent them mechanically such that having hobgoblins and orcs as separate races actually matters? Rather than just giving a different physical description when the monster shows up.

It's an order/chaos thing. Hobgoblins lean more towards Fighters and military structure, while Orcs lean more towards Barbarian and tribal structure.

[Segev]

It's an order/chaos thing. Hobgoblins lean more towards Fighters and military structure, while Orcs lean more towards Barbarian and tribal structure.

But does that reflect in any meaningful statblock mechanical differences? They're both big tough humanoids with darkvision.

They seem less different from each other than humans are from elves.

[Psyren]

But does that reflect in any meaningful statblock mechanical differences? They're both big tough humanoids with darkvision.

They seem less different from each other than humans are from elves.

I was answering the first part of your question (i.e. "fluff-wise.") Mechanically the differences are as described - Orcs are stronger but dumber and not as quick.

EDIT: If you did want to tie these two together - Hobgoblins realized early on that they were a savage race without the innate physical advantages that other savage races have (e.g. the strength of Orcs and Bugbears, or the quickness and size of goblins.) Thus they evolved to survive by learning military tactics, allowing a force of hobgoblins to withstand a foe comprised of individually stronger members.