[DSP] POW Class Templates Discussion Thread

[Elricaltovilla]

Many of you may be familiar with the work that Dreamscarred Press is doing with their latest release, the Path of War (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?308912-PF-DSP-Dreamscarred-Press-announces-ToB-inspired-product-II-The-Rematch). They also recently announced a second book, Path of War Expanded (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?373269-Dreamscarred-Press-Announces-Path-of-War-Expanded). Part of the Path of War: Expanded's release is the introduction of class templates. There are currently three Class Templates planned for release, all available in this nifty little document (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hHsiSKoL2nR4oWgzPKQwXfqYENuNkDmBiX323SlTPfc/edit?usp=sharing).

As the writer of these three class templates, the Bushi, Privateer and Hussar, I'm turning to you playgrounders to give your feedback on these Class Templates. So what do you think about them?

[Taveena]

Kinda excited. Already decided to build a friend's samurai character as a Warlord when PoW was released - now there's another archetype explicitly for that. Haven't yet had a chance to see how it works in play, but will be providin' feedback as soon as we've got some!

[Togath]

I'm really looking forward to them! ^_^
Planning to ask one of my gms about letting me try some levels in a warlord bushi on one of my characters(they already ok'd warlord, and my character has high charisma, figure it would be a good way to strengthen my character's usefulness in battle)

[squiggit]

Ill just repost my first thought on the privateer from the other thread. I feel the issues with their firearms is a huge one.

I think the Privateer should have some provision in his class features to make sword and pistol TWF more workable. It's a fun and very thematic fighting style, but as it stands it's probably one of the worst in the game.

More important for PoW, you're basically just playing einhander with another weapon around. There are very, very few maneuvers the template has native access to (just a few steel serpent and golden lion ones) that you can use with the pistol and you don't really get much TWF mileage out of it either for the same reason (no thrashing dragon). It ends up just being a trap option.


Also, Dazzling Gambit having the exact same effect as their maneuver recovery feels a bit awkward.

I'm not entirely sold on the value of Jolly Roger and sea dog over all your presences either. But that's another issue.

[Taveena]

Maybe something where you can add your Pistol's damage to a Strike?

[Elricaltovilla]

Ill just repost my first thought on the privateer from the other thread. I feel the issues with their firearms is a huge one.

I think the Privateer should have some provision in his class features to make sword and pistol TWF more workable. It's a fun and very thematic fighting style, but as it stands it's probably one of the worst in the game.

More important for PoW, you're basically just playing einhander with another weapon around. There are very, very few maneuvers the template has native access to (just a few steel serpent and golden lion ones) that you can use with the pistol and you don't really get much TWF mileage out of it either for the same reason (no thrashing dragon). It ends up just being a trap option.


Also, Dazzling Gambit having the exact same effect as their maneuver recovery feels a bit awkward.

I'm not entirely sold on the value of Jolly Roger and sea dog over all your presences either. But that's another issue.

The Privateer is the one I feel needs the biggest overhaul. I want to give it more options in the same way that the Bushi and Hussar have them.

Dazzling Gambit will probably go the way of the Dodo.

The Jolly Roger and Sea Dog are more to fit the flavor of the Template, but Jolly Roger offers the single longest range buff option in the game I think, and its not a bad boost. I just wouldn't recommend it unless you were playing a sea based campaign.

[squiggit]

Yeah, they're definitely flavorful.. and Jolly Roger looks better now that I realized you can take it with you. Sea Dog is flavorful and potentially good if you're relying on those skill checks and Swash and Buckle is great. It just suffers from not having a lot of cool stuff to do when compared with the Bushi's big list of bushidos and the hussar's formations and pet. Everything it has is completely passive.

Firearm usage is a big issue for them too. You have two or three golden lion strikes and I think eight or so steel serpent strikes as all they can do with it.

Maybe something in Swash and Buckle to let them use a pistol in Thrashing Dragon and Solar Wind strikes.

[Togath]

Pistols can be used with solar wind already.

[squiggit]

Pistols can be used with solar wind already.

The solar wind maneuver description section(p.95) says


Solar Wind maneuvers may only be
performed with a weapon in the bow, crossbow, or
thrown weapon groups.

[Togath]

"Solar Wind's associated skill is Perception and its weapon groups are bows, crossbows, firearms, and thrown. All maneuvers of this discipline require the use of a weapon in these groups or the firearms weapon group. Thrown weapons that also have melee applications may only be used with this discipline when used in their ranged weapon capacity."

Is the only description I could find:smallconfused:
Which states that firearms are indeed useable. Twice in fact, oddly.

edit: ah, page 96. Still, it seems like(especially since it's stated everywhere else in the book to be the case) that firearms are intended to be usable with it.

[Elricaltovilla]

Its come up in conversation frequently, but firearms are indeed use able with Solar Wind.

[Shinken]

I just wanted to say yet again that Stalker needs some way to get Mithral Current. Make it an archetype or something, I don't know - we deserve our hitokiri!

[squiggit]

Its come up in conversation frequently, but firearms are indeed use able with Solar Wind.

Well I'm glad it's just a typo. Rest of the point stands though.

[Togath]

I just wanted to say yet again that Stalker needs some way to get Mithral Current. Make it an archetype or something, I don't know - we deserve our hitokiri!

I'm not sure what hitokiri is, but I actually was writing up a mithril current using stalker archetype (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/p=43801.html#43801):smallsmile:
It's just a submission, but I figured it couldn't hurt to mention it ^_^

[Dusk Eclipse]

Hitokiri can be translated as "Manslayer" from japanese, it is a term that was given to the four strongest Samurai during the Bakumatsu periodi; though Shinken is definitely referring to Himura Kenshin, the "Hitokiri Battosai", main character from the anime/manga Rurouni Kenshin (Samurai X in some places), who is an incredibly awesome character, and is obviously a master swordsman with focus on "almost" superhuman speed and reflexes. Though if I'm perfectly honest I don't see Kenshin with less than full BAB, so your mileage may vary.

I also have a question, how do the class templates interact with Archetypes? Specifically can a Dervish Defender Warder give up Shield of Blades (replaces clad in steel), Grace of Blades (replaces Steel Defense) and Critical Evasion (replaces Born in Steel) to get the Bushi template or are they (and me by extension) SOL?

[Jacob.Tyr]

Quick thoughts on Privateer:
Does/should the Maneuver recovery system for privateers count as "Dazzling Display" for meeting requirements? E.g. shatter defenses.

Swash and buckle is a little bit weird, since presumably it stacks with TWF feats, but I'm not sure where a second level privateer is getting enough feats for that anyway. Once you consider the feats required to fight with a pistol, especially in close range with melee combat going on, it becomes absurd.
Idea: maybe on crit, privateers also add an offhand weapons damage, potentially critted at higher levels, in addition to what their main hand does?

The Jolly Roger is associated with Pirates, privateers worked with official sanction, and tended to fly modified national flags

The demoralize mechanics are beautiful, though. Really like the idea of someone so confident and wild in combat that it terrifies their enemies.

[Elricaltovilla]

Hitokiri can be translated as "Manslayer" from japanese, it is a term that was given to the four strongest Samurai during the Bakumatsu periodi; though Shinken is definitely referring to Himura Kenshin, the "Hitokiri Battosai", main character from the anime/manga Rurouni Kenshin (Samurai X in some places), who is an incredibly awesome character, and is obviously a master swordsman with focus on "almost" superhuman speed and reflexes. Though if I'm perfectly honest I don't see Kenshin with less than full BAB, so your mileage may vary.

I also have a question, how do the class templates interact with Archetypes? Specifically can a Dervish Defender Warder give up Shield of Blades (replaces clad in steel), Grace of Blades (replaces Steel Defense) and Critical Evasion (replaces Born in Steel) to get the Bushi template or are they (and me by extension) SOL?

Kenshin Himura is a Warder-Bushi. I'd offer examples but I'm on my phone right now. Maybe I'll add some later.

As for archetype stacking, right now Class Templates follow the same rules as archetypes, so they wouldn't stack. However, I can still bring it up in discussion with the others.

[squiggit]

Also. I really appreciate that the privateer lets me play someone who can use steel serpent without being a stalker or unarmed fighter.

[Shinken]

Hitokiri can be translated as "Manslayer" from japanese, it is a term that was given to the four strongest Samurai during the Bakumatsu periodi; though Shinken is definitely referring to Himura Kenshin, the "Hitokiri Battosai", main character from the anime/manga Rurouni Kenshin (Samurai X in some places), who is an incredibly awesome character, and is obviously a master swordsman with focus on "almost" superhuman speed and reflexes. Though if I'm perfectly honest I don't see Kenshin with less than full BAB, so your mileage may vary.


I'm talking more about the hystorical hitokiri than Kenshin Himura (who is indeed awesome, though). They would literally stalk their prey in the night, declare they were going to die for the sake of the revolution and then cut them down. Training in battou was crucial for an effective hitokiri, since they needed to avoid attention until they closed with their target.

[deuxhero]

Warder Bushi gains profiency with martial ranged weapons. Not sure if intended.

There is no mention of loss/gain of class skills when swapping disciplines.

[Greenish]

Why aren't wardens proficient with any ranged weapons, anyway? Not even the "so simple, a wizard could use it" ones.

[Shinken]

Why aren't wardens proficient with any ranged weapons, anyway? Not even the "so simple, a wizard could use it" ones.

I take it you want membership in our Warders Should Be Called WardensTM club? We have free T-shirts

[Elricaltovilla]

Warder Bushi gains profiency with martial ranged weapons. Not sure if intended.

There is no mention of loss/gain of class skills when swapping disciplines.

Yes, that was intentional. Samurai were historically trained in both archery and melee combat, and the Bushi represents the same thing.

There should be a mention of it, I'll have to do some editing then.

[Greenish]

I take it you want membership in our Warders Should Be Called WardensTM club? We have free T-shirtsI wasn't aware that I wasn't already a member, with some seniority (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15919388&postcount=394).

[Powerdork]

Whoops, bushi made my fighter Roy (https://i.stack.imgur.com/yfWXV.gif).

:D

[Hunter Noventa]

I'm not totally sold on the Bushi, it's awesome, no doubt about it, but the maneuver recovery seems a little lackluster, since they can only ever recover one at a time, save for when combat ends...unless I'm misreading it and the Warlock can still use Gambits, and the Warder can still use their Defensive Focus to do so? If that's the case then it's pretty awesome, especially when combined with all the stuff in Mithral Current that lets you sheathe quickly.

I really like that the Privateer, while Sea-flavored, doesn't lose anything for being on land, other than the slight awkwardness of trying to display the Jolly Roger.

It's hard for me to judge the Hussar, as I've never really used Mounted Combat myself. It certainly lends itself more to a certain kind of game than the others, if only because there are a lot ofsituations where maintaning that kind of formation is just asking to be hit with AoE attacks

[Taveena]

They still can use their normal recovery method - the alternate recovery method only replaces the 'spend a standard, gain 1'. So Warlords still have gambits and Warders can still go turtlemode.

[Nihilarian]

I take it you want membership in our Warders Should Be Called WardensTM club? We have free T-shirtsWhat's this Warder versus Warden thing?

[Elricaltovilla]

I'm not totally sold on the Bushi, it's awesome, no doubt about it, but the maneuver recovery seems a little lackluster, since they can only ever recover one at a time, save for when combat ends...unless I'm misreading it and the Warlock can still use Gambits, and the Warder can still use their Defensive Focus to do so? If that's the case then it's pretty awesome, especially when combined with all the stuff in Mithral Current that lets you sheathe quickly.

I really like that the Privateer, while Sea-flavored, doesn't lose anything for being on land, other than the slight awkwardness of trying to display the Jolly Roger.

It's hard for me to judge the Hussar, as I've never really used Mounted Combat myself. It certainly lends itself more to a certain kind of game than the others, if only because there are a lot ofsituations where maintaning that kind of formation is just asking to be hit with AoE attacks

Yes, the bushi retains his normal maneuver recovery method, so they can still make use of gambits and defensive focus.

The Privateer was intended to work on both land and sea, because even sea campaigns need to come ashore sometimes.

The Hussar's formations are probably better for military style games, or at least games which don't require being in a cramped tunnel all day. But its important to note that you don't have to be within X feet of the Hussar, just within X feet of an ally who's part of the formation, meaning that you can actually spread out a fair bit.

[Shinken]

What's this Warder versus Warden thing?

Some folks would rather call the class Warden instead of Warder.
In my mind, 'warder' evokes the image of someone that fiddles with wards, you know, those rune-y things that protect people.
I mean, we all know warder is technically correct, but at least to me, it sends the wrong vibe. YMMV.

[Anlashok]

Some folks would rather call the class Warden instead of Warder.
In my mind, 'warder' evokes the image of someone that fiddles with wards, you know, those rune-y things that protect people.
I mean, we all know warder is technically correct, but at least to me, it sends the wrong vibe. YMMV.

Well, also Warden implies leadership and Warder implies mookiship. And "warder" looks silly. And when I look at the Sworn Protector archetype I can't help but feel like someone was reading too much wheel of time when they designed this class.

[Shinken]

I'm making the club official and adding it to my sig. Join me and together we'll destroy the Sith!

[Nihilarian]

And when I look at the Sworn Protector archetype I can't help but feel like someone was reading too much wheel of time when they designed this class.I'm confused. Since when is taking inspiration from a popular fantasy series a bad thing?

For the rest of it I guess it's just down to personal taste?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Didn't the warder vs warden thing came up in the very first PoW thread?

[Elricaltovilla]

Didn't the warder vs warden thing came up in the very first PoW thread?

It did. I was part of the movement at first. But I couldn't be arsed to care at this point, I'm just glad the class works as well as it does.

[Jigawatts]

The word Warden evokes two thoughts for me, and neither is Intelligent Tank. The first is game warden, a nature-y ranger type who stops people from hunting illegally. The second is a prison warden, and according to just about every prison movie Ive ever seen, those guys are corrupt evil as*holes. :smalltongue:

Warder on the other hand, as was previously mentioned, does makes me think of the Wheel of Time, although that's not necessarily a bad thing.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Oh I agree, warder is such a good class, I don't understand why it was so hard to get a decent int-based melee class (Magus doesn't count as it is a caster), so yeah the name dichotomy doesn't (or shouldn't) matter in the long run.

So back to class templates.... will there be any class template that is compatible with archetypes? I'll have to check more thoroughly, but from a quick glance it seems only the base versions of the classes can take the templates, is that by design?

[Elricaltovilla]

Oh I agree, warder is such a good class, I don't understand why it was so hard to get a decent int-based melee class (Magus doesn't count as it is a caster), so yeah the name dichotomy doesn't (or shouldn't) matter in the long run.

So back to class templates.... will there be any class template that is compatible with archetypes? I'll have to check more thoroughly, but from a quick glance it seems only the base versions of the classes can take the templates, is that by design?

No, you can take the class template with an archetype as long as they don't overlap, just like taking multiple archetypes. For example, you can be a Warder-Bushi-Zweihander Sentinel.

I'm trying to convince others to let Class Templates stack with any archetype by "overwriting" the archetype's changes, but I'm not sure what kind of effect that might have.

[Togath]

No, you can take the class template with an archetype as long as they don't overlap, just like taking multiple archetypes. For example, you can be a Warder-Bushi-Zweihander Sentinel.

Nice!
I might try that sometime, sounds like a very fun combo.

[Elricaltovilla]

Nice!
I might try that sometime, sounds like a very fun combo.

I've built one before, Its a good setup for making a more aggressive Warder, or someone really focused on AoOs and counters.

[Rickshaw]

Personally I'm super excited to make a samurai champloo style warlord bushi magehunter specializing in mithril current and veiled moon. I fact, if I hadn't already agreed and embarked upon a tank (Zwiehander warder that is really focused on AoOs, counters, and tripping =p) I would already be playing it, I love the idea of the fluff involved in all that and am super excited to role play a dude who hates magic and mages, and yet has to deal with the fact that in order to more efficiently kill them, he has become them (I.e. The Mage hunter prc cast spells which is really fun and dichotomous to me :smalltongue:)

I think the whole idea of a class template is very unique and fascinating, and I'm interested to see if it will become more common in time

[Powerdork]

So, is it intentional that Mithral Current's maneuvers don't have prerequisites?

[Hunter Noventa]

Yes, the bushi retains his normal maneuver recovery method, so they can still make use of gambits and defensive focus.

The Privateer was intended to work on both land and sea, because even sea campaigns need to come ashore sometimes.

The Hussar's formations are probably better for military style games, or at least games which don't require being in a cramped tunnel all day. But its important to note that you don't have to be within X feet of the Hussar, just within X feet of an ally who's part of the formation, meaning that you can actually spread out a fair bit.

Yep, that was the feeling I got when i re-read the maneuver recovery, which makes it pretty awesome.

And it's a GOOD thing the Privateer functions on land. Wouldn't want to be like say, the Dread Pirate PrC or something.

And I did note that about the Hussar, if it was limited to being within the distance of the Hussar, it would be absolutely terrible, as it is it's interesting, but somewhat situational. But about as situational as mounted combat. In the right situation, it shines brightly, when outside of it, it's just...there. Well, better than mounted combat, since you aren't sinking feats into it.

[Shinken]

So, is it intentional that Mithral Current's maneuvers don't have prerequisites?

They don't?!

[PsyBomb]

No, you can take the class template with an archetype as long as they don't overlap, just like taking multiple archetypes. For example, you can be a Warder-Bushi-Zweihander Sentinel..

You just let me make Fa Zhu, thank you. Been wondering how I'd make that one.

[Elricaltovilla]

So, is it intentional that Mithral Current's maneuvers don't have prerequisites?

No, it is very definitely not intentional. I'll have this fixed in a jiffy.

EDIT: Mistake has been corrected.

[Powerdork]

My friend offers a criticism of Mithral Current: It has so many abilities that would be amazing if you weren't an initiator, but as they are, they're kind of meh. Especially Mithral Current Stance, which you can gain through six applications of Martial Training, but at that point, you're an initiator.

[Elricaltovilla]

My friend offers a criticism of Mithral Current: It has so many abilities that would be amazing if you weren't an initiator, but as they are, they're kind of meh. Especially Mithral Current Stance, which you can gain through six applications of Martial Training, but at that point, you're an initiator.

I don't know that that's really a criticism. Its meant to be used by initiators. It was designed to be used in an initiating-friendly game and is only available to non initiators as a step towards bringing them up to the level of initiating classes. Its like saying "conjuration spells offer a lot of great stuff for non-casters, but they can only get it by becoming casters."

[Powerdork]

So what are the restrictions on the action to mark a bushi's ally with Loyalty? Range, freedom of movement, etc.

Also, for the Honesty SLA, what's the save DC? General rules would suggest 14+CHA, but warders...


And the short description for Blade of the Silver Sea mentions that inflicting vulnerability to silver if you draw your yadda yadda, but the maneuver text itself does not. Which is it?

[Elricaltovilla]

So what are the restrictions on the action to mark a bushi's ally with Loyalty? Range, freedom of movement, etc.

It's a standard action to perform, and the range/duration/etc. is the same as the status spell, with a caster level equal to your initiator level.


Also, for the Honesty SLA, what's the save DC? General rules would suggest 14+CHA, but warders...

Actually, the standard for initiating classes is (10+1/2 level+ initiating modifier), even though they all state its a specific score. But since it's a class template and that can be confusing I'll change the text.


And the short description for Blade of the Silver Sea mentions that inflicting vulnerability to silver if you draw your yadda yadda, but the maneuver text itself does not. Which is it?

Yes it does? Both the short text and long text mention it giving the target vulnerability to silver.

[Powerdork]

Yes it does? Both the short text and long text mention it giving the target vulnerability to silver.

Alright, but the key words are "if you draw your..." yadda yadda. Those are missing from the maneuver full text.

[Rickshaw]

I'm curious as to if any of the PoW stuff will be released specifically for the pure steam setting (privateer seems like a natural choice) or if there will just be adaptations given to make it fit. Come to think of it, class templates would probably set a good precedent to make it exceptionally easy to port over.

I, of course, have not looked into the setting much at all though, so I'm not sure how compatible it would be, if at all - I just happened to see the banner on it while pfsrd looking up the naginata to see if quick draw works with it :) I like spear samurai

[Powerdork]

So, what are the specifics of vulnerability to silver? Is it as the vilkacis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/vilkacis) vulnerability to silver? Or is it as the Universal Monster Rule? If the latter, is it "vulnerability to damage from silver weapons" in lieu of an energy type?

[Elricaltovilla]

The Bushi class template has been updated to make it compatible with the Stalker base class. Please share any insights here. :smallbiggrin:

[deuxhero]

I'd change the wording on Stalker Bushi talking Bushido in place or Stalker Arts to work better with Extra Stalker Art (let you take a Bushido with it and let you qualify for the feat if you take a Bushido)

[Elricaltovilla]

I'd change the wording on Stalker Bushi talking Bushido in place or Stalker Arts to work better with Extra Stalker Art (let you take a Bushido with it and let you qualify for the feat if you take a Bushido)

Hmmm, yes and no. There isn't going to be an Extra Bushido feat, so I don't want Stalkers getting access to more Bushidos than Warders and Warlords. I'll think about letting you take the feat for stalker arts even if you don't have one yet, but Stalker Bushi are unique in that they get to choose between taking a Bushido or a Stalker Art at each level, whereas Warders and Warlords lose access to their bonus feats in exchange for their Bushidos.

[Von Krieger]

So, what are the specifics of vulnerability to silver? Is it as the vilkacis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/vilkacis) vulnerability to silver? Or is it as the Universal Monster Rule? If the latter, is it "vulnerability to damage from silver weapons" in lieu of an energy type?

It's like an elemental damage type. I think they take +50% damage from a silver weapon.