Trips and Disarms in 5e

[BRC]

Tripping and Disarming enemies is a classic move in a lot of genre works. It's stylish, cinematic, and realistically effective.

However, in 5e, both of these once powerful maneuvers are really weak.
Everybody gets a free action to interact with an object, so a disarmed weapon can just be scooped back up next turn at no penalty. Falling prone takes half your movement to stand up, but does not provoke an AoO. It's main downside is that enemies in melee get advantage against you, which depending on the scenario is a pretty big deal I guess.

But is anybody else bothered by how worthless Disarming is in 5e?

[MustacheFart]

The disarming one doesn't bother me so much. !) I never really bothered with it in past editions and 2) Given how drawing a weapon is worded in the PHB you could actually make a case for catching the enemies weapon in your offhand after disarming it.

The trip one bothers me more. It has applications in "gang up on em" scenarios but on a 1 on 1 it's kinda meh.

Then again, it can be used in place of an attack I believe right? So, if you can attack more than once in an action (by level 5 for most martial classes) you could push someone down then get advantage on the follow up attack right?

On the brightside, while they may be weaker actions now, I am digging the shove action a lot. Bull rush seemed to be an overcomplicated PIA back in 3.5. Being a barbarian with advantage on strength checks when raging I have already pushed a few suckers off of cliffs. It's actually one of my favorite things to do. Just the visuals in my head are great. Man I love doing it.

[Baveboi]

That bothered me a little.
I made a rule that if you want to disarm an opponent you have to hit and deal damage to his hand holding the weapon, which would make him drop it (and depending of the damage) would make him incapable of picking it up again in that hand. As a plus, crouching to catch your weapon and then standing up again, I decided would take a action, or a bonus action that provokes AoO.

But that is just because I am a HIMA aficionado and end up spending hours arguing with my players the difference of warfare, skirmishes and duels and their respective values and disadvantages.

EDIT: As for tripping, it's easy to see its uses. In HIMA you would trip someone and immediately to wrestle them into a position of submission, choking them or holding their weapon arm. If a prone enemy has disadvantage on checks, I can see how you could use that after pushing someone down.

[archaeo]

Tripping and Disarming enemies is a classic move in a lot of genre works. It's stylish, cinematic, and realistically effective.

However, in 5e, both of these once powerful maneuvers are really weak.
Everybody gets a free action to interact with an object, so a disarmed weapon can just be scooped back up next turn at no penalty. Falling prone takes half your movement to stand up, but does not provoke an AoO. It's main downside is that enemies in melee get advantage against you, which depending on the scenario is a pretty big deal I guess.

But is anybody else bothered by how worthless Disarming is in 5e?

Not really! Try this. The Battle Master first disarms an opponent using Disarming Attack. Second attack, shove the creature 15 feet back with Pushing Attack. Third attack, knocks the creature prone with Tripping Attack. You can replace those last two actions with just normal shove actions, of course, but an extra 2d8 damage (or higher) is pretty strong. (EDIT: reverse the trip and the push for advantage on the push!)

Also, if picking up a single item is a free action, can't you just scoop it up on your turn yourself?

[MustacheFart]

But that is just because I am a HIMA aficionado and end up spending hours arguing with my players the difference of warfare, skirmishes and duels and their respective values and disadvantages.

EDIT: As for tripping, it's easy to see its uses. In HIMA you would trip someone and immediately to wrestle them into a position of submission, choking them or holding their weapon arm. If a prone enemy has disadvantage on checks, I can see how you could use that after pushing someone down.

What's HIMA? Are you referring to Historical European Martial Arts -- HEMA? Otherwise I have no clue what that stands for.

[edge2054]

The best trip to me seems to be the fighter maneuver as it pairs well with polearm mastery and sentinel.

In the case of the former you can trip someone as they're closing with you. If they don't have enough movement left to get up they may have to spend their action to dash or lay on the ground until their next turn, which is a very dangerous position for them to be in. If they've already started their action, say they're in the middle of a string of attacks, then they have no choice but to wait it out.

For sentinel you can trip and reduce their movement to 0. Again if you do this on a reaction, say they run up and try to stab your mage and you react, they're in a pretty bad spot. Not only are they going to be attacking with disadvantage you're probably going to have advantage when your turn comes around.

As for disarm, just use your free object interaction to kick their weapon away. Free AoO if they don't disengage :)

[BRC]

Not really! Try this. The Battle Master first disarms an opponent using Disarming Attack. Second attack, shove the creature 15 feet back with Pushing Attack. Third attack, knocks the creature prone with Tripping Attack. You can replace those last two actions with just normal shove actions, of course, but an extra 2d8 damage (or higher) is pretty strong. (EDIT: reverse the trip and the push for advantage on the push!)

Also, if picking up a single item is a free action, can't you just scoop it up on your turn yourself?

That is a really effective strategy, but it requires three uses of Superiority Dice.

Which is I suppose worth it for a chance to basically take an enemy out of the fight.

As for the second question, not really. When you disarm somebody their weapon drops to their feet, so you can't interact with it unless you have some way to move into their space and kick it away.

[MustacheFart]

The best trip to me seems to be the fighter maneuver as it pairs well with polearm mastery and sentinel.

In the case of the former you can trip someone as they're closing with you. If they don't have enough movement left to get up they may have to spend their action to dash or lay on the ground until their next turn, which is a very dangerous position for them to be in. If they've already started their action, say they're in the middle of a string of attacks, then they have no choice but to wait it out.

For sentinel you can trip and reduce their movement to 0. Again if you do this on a reaction, say they run up and try to stab your mage and you react, they're in a pretty bad spot. Not only are they going to be attacking with disadvantage you're probably going to have advantage when your turn comes around.

As for disarm, just use your free object interaction to kick their weapon away. Free AoO if they don't disengage :)

Thank you. You've just justified going for the 3/4 level fighter dip into Battlemaster on my barbarian. I was teetering between crit chance increase of champion and battle master. Thanks!

[Baveboi]

What's HIMA? Are you referring to Historical European Martial Arts -- HEMA? Otherwise I have no clue what that stands for.

YES! Sorry about that. English is not my mother language and in Portuguese i has the sound of e, so I mix them a lot in both directions. I should proofread what I write more often...

[edge2054]

As for the second question, not really. When you disarm somebody their weapon drops to their feet, so you can't interact with it unless you have some way to move into their space and kick it away.

Yeah, this ruins my thought for disarm too. Looks like Disarm really needs to be followed up with some kind of shove after. I can see Disarm + Shield Master shove working well on a battle master. Seeing as that's two strength saves (effectively) this seems like it would be a good strategy for dealing with casters but not a lot else. Still though, taking away the BBEG's casting focus or magical wand/staff might be worth it.


Thank you. You've just justified going for the 3/4 level fighter dip into Battlemaster on my barbarian. I was teetering between crit chance increase of champion and battle master. Thanks!

Haha.. no problem, I think both of us are really in love with polearm master/sentinel combos :) I'm leaning towards either ranger or fighter on my rogue.

*edit*

One other thought on Trip with a polearm build...

This would work best in some kind of one on one situation or when you have a hallway blocked. Either way it's important that you're enemy doesn't have some kind of strong ranged attack. Anyway what you do is trip on your first attack, take all your attacks and advantage, and then move back. The enemy will get an AoO on you but it will be at disadvantage. They stand up and if they choose to reengage get stabbed in the face with your polearm.

[archaeo]

That is a really effective strategy, but it requires three uses of Superiority Dice.

Which is I suppose worth it for a chance to basically take an enemy out of the fight.

As for the second question, not really. When you disarm somebody their weapon drops to their feet, so you can't interact with it unless you have some way to move into their space and kick it away.

So just use the remainder of your move after you shove the guy backwards from the weapon.

[BRC]

Yeah, this ruins my thought for disarm too. Looks like Disarm really needs to be followed up with some kind of shove after. I can see Disarm + Shield Master shove working well on a battle master. Seeing as that's two strength saves (effectively) this seems like it would be a good strategy for dealing with casters but not a lot else. Still though, taking away the BBEG's casting focus or magical wand/staff might be worth it.

Which isn't as nice, but I guess it works.

I have a "No One Roll" philosophy, which is to say that a full powered character (Once you get out of the rocket-tag that is low levels) should never be only a single roll away from being useless in combat.

Disarm followed by a push works well enough for that, it's harder to pull off, and gives the target a few rolls to resist. Although I personally wish there was some way to make Disarming give a lesser tactical advantage without going to such lengths.

[MustacheFart]

Why do you need to go into their square to pick up their weapon? You can reach out to a 5' square even with unarmed strikes. You should be able to just reach and grab it.


One other thought on Trip with a polearm build...

This would work best in some kind of one on one situation or when you have a hallway blocked. Either way it's important that you're enemy doesn't have some kind of strong ranged attack. Anyway what you do is trip on your first attack, take all your attacks and advantage, and then move back. The enemy will get an AoO on you but it will be at disadvantage. They stand up and if they choose to reengage get stabbed in the face with your polearm.

If you can snag the Mobile feat then they wouldn't even get an AoO either. First attack shove them down, take the rest of your attacks, back up and good to go. They get up, enter your reach, you poke them, their movement becomes 0 and if they've got no range they're done for the round.