Solving the turning problem...

[atemu1234]

I made a pretty cool NPC for the PCs to fight. The players are all around level 22-24 (so post-epic) with Epic Spellcasting banned. The NPC is a 20th-level sorcerer with the Demon Lord template (from Dragon Magazine) and the Dread Vampire template (from Advanced Bestiary). Unfortunately, it's only got 20 hit dice, and it's only got Turn Resistance +6. How do I stop the 23rd level, radiant servant of pelor Cleric with the Sun domain from just spam-turning him until he goes poof-poof flambe?

[Krobar]

He's a 20th level sorcerer. Can he cast Wish in order to be immune from turning? Or to redirect turning attempts? Just word it how you want to make it work with your game.

[afroakuma]

I made a pretty cool NPC for the PCs to fight. The players are all around level 22-24 (so post-epic) with Epic Spellcasting banned. The NPC is a 20th-level sorcerer with the Demon Lord template (from Dragon Magazine) and the Dread Vampire template (from Advanced Bestiary). Unfortunately, it's only got 20 hit dice, and it's only got Turn Resistance +6. How do I stop the 23rd level, radiant servant of pelor Cleric with the Sun domain from just spam-turning him until he goes poof-poof flambe?

It's a demon lord, which means it's an outsider, not undead. Unless said Radiant Servant of Pelor has some clever thing which lets him turn/destroy evil outsiders, your NPC is immune to that sort of nonsense.

[Rater202]

It's a demon lord, which means it's an outsider, not undead. Unless said Radiant Servant of Pelor has some clever thing which lets him turn/destroy evil outsiders, your NPC is immune to that sort of nonsense.

It also has the Vampire Lord template, which makes it undead.

@OP seconding the "wish to be immune to turning" suggestion.

[Rubik]

Give him the Human Heritage feat. Makes him immune to turning, but he keeps his undead immunities.

[Rhunder]

Throw enough undead minions to where the cleric burns through the turn es.

[afroakuma]

It also has the Vampire Lord template, which makes it undead.

It can't be both and the Dread Vampire template offers no reason to apply it second. There's no reason for the creature to be undead at all.

[Galen]

Make him a Lizardfolk. Two racial HD bring the total HD over the top. Oh, you can also name him Malak.

[Malroth]

Craft Contigent Spell (Before I am Successfully targeted by Turn or rebuke Undead) cast Plane Shift

[sleepyphoenixx]

Libris Mortis has items for this. Cloak of Turn Resistance adds +4, Bagpipes of the Damned add +3 for 10 rounds but need a DC 15 perform check. There's also some feats that increase turn resistance iirc.

[Extra Anchovies]

Libris Mortis has items for this. Cloak of Turn Resistance adds +4, Bagpipes of the Damned add +3 for 10 rounds but need a DC 15 perform check. There's also some feats that increase turn resistance iirc.

Now I'm imagining the evil lich sorcerer whipping out some bagpipes every minute or so and playing a little tune on them, only to return to slinging around enervation right after. It's a nice little mental image :smallamused:

[Rubik]

ALL bagpipes are evil, with a capital EVIL.

Damned bagpipes.

[Rebel7284]

There is always mundane disguise checks. :)

[Rater202]

It can't be both and the Dread Vampire template offers no reason to apply it second. There's no reason for the creature to be undead at all.

OP said it had both, and he's allowed to House Rule it anyway he wants, so yes, it can and is both.

[Fax Celestis]

A couple applications of Evolved Undead might cover it. IIRC it gives turn resist and some other benefits.

[Rubik]

I still think that, RAW, Human Heritage would completely negate having to jump through all of these hoops.

Turn Undead only affects undead. Undead with the Humanoid Heritage are Humanoid (Human) for all purposes, but they keep all the perks of being undead.

For one feat, you don't have to worry about turning, rebuking, Command Undead, Control Undead, or anything else that affects undead (other than healing from negative energy, anyway). For that matter, most things that target humanoids don't work, either, since undead are immune to them due to the Undead type's traits (which you keep).

[Urpriest]

OP said it had both, and he's allowed to House Rule it anyway he wants, so yes, it can and is both.

OP said no such thing, that I can see.

Anyway, presumably it became a vampire after becoming a demon lord due to backstory reasons, so we can presume it can't be altered.

It looks like we have the solutions, anyway. Either use Human Heritage if you want to let your players know that they're totally allowed to use Human Heritage cheese, or a cloak that gives +4 turn resistance if not.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I still think that, RAW, Human Heritage would completely negate having to jump through all of these hoops.

In general, this is rather questionable and depends entirely on your DM ruling "anything that was at one point human" vs "a creature with partially human ancestry" as for what "human-descended" means.

In this case it would also require the demon lord to have once been human, which doesn't work since the template requires the creature to belong to one of the loumara, obyrith or tanar'ri races.

[Rubik]

In general, this is rather questionable and depends entirely on your DM ruling "anything that was at one point human" vs "a creature with partially human ancestry" as for what "human-descended" means.

In this case it would also require the demon lord to have once been human, which doesn't work since the template requires the creature to belong to one of the loumara, obyrith or tanar'ri races.There are lots of ways to become human or partially human for long enough to take the feat, only some of which involve one's ancestry.

Polymorph + the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle, for one. Or Fusion + Astral Seed. Or Magic Jar. Or Shapechange.

[Segev]

I'm not sure Vampire Lord can legally be applied to anything to which Demon Lord can be legally applied, actually. Outsiders cannot be made undead.

That said, the best answer is also the most epic: Have your demon-vampire-sorcerer command legions of undead, and keep hordes of low-HD skeletons between himself and the cleric. Better still if he has a means to constantly replenish them. By the time the Turn attempt's wave of holy energy reaches him, it will have expended itself on the HD of the closer, less-impressive undead.

[Rubik]

I'm not sure Vampire Lord can legally be applied to anything to which Demon Lord can be legally applied, actually. Outsiders cannot be made undead.I'm pretty sure outsiders CAN become undead. See: Orcus. There's little to nothing preventing it, other than the fact that most outsiders do not have body/soul separation. And any undead template that doesn't have non-outsider restriction can be applied to them just fine.

[torrasque666]

OP said no such thing, that I can see.

Anyway, presumably it became a vampire after becoming a demon lord due to backstory reasons, so we can presume it can't be altered.


The NPC is a 20th-level sorcerer with the Demon Lord template (from Dragon Magazine) and the Dread Vampire template (from Advanced Bestiary).

Dude, he said it in his first post.

Technically, there's nothing in the Demon Lord template that says it can't be applied to an Undead, and thus he could have been a Dread Vampire first and then become a Demon Lord and thus ignore turning all together as its not an Undead.


I'm not sure Vampire Lord can legally be applied to anything to which Demon Lord can be legally applied, actually. Outsiders cannot be made undead.
He's not applying Vampire Lord, but the Dread Vampire template, which says the following for its only limitation:
“Dread vampire” is an acquired template that can be added to any living creature with an Intelligence (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Intelligence-Int-) score of 3 or higher (referred to hereafter as the base creature). A dread vampire uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here. Thus, it is a valid target for being undead. Unless I missed something about Demon Lords being immune to Con drain(which they very well may be/I have) there's nothing preventing them from doing so.

[Urpriest]

Dude, he said it in his first post.

Are we reading the same internet? Nothing in the OP said the creature is both undead and an outsider. As far as the OP is concerned, it's just an undead.



Technically, there's nothing in the Demon Lord template that says it can't be applied to an Undead, and thus he could have been a Dread Vampire first and then become a Demon Lord and thus ignore turning all together as its not an Undead.


That, on the other hand, was quite clearly implicit in the OP. The OP applied Demon Lord first, then Dread Vampire, otherwise this would never have been a concern. Presumably this is because the creature used to be a Demon Lord and is now a Dread Vampire. I don't think we should assume the backstory can be messed with unless the OP mentions it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There are lots of ways to become human or partially human for long enough to take the feat, only some of which involve one's ancestry.

Polymorph + the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle, for one. Or Fusion + Astral Seed. Or Magic Jar. Or Shapechange.

I'm pretty sure we had the discussion about Human Heritage and the undead type already, a few weeks ago (and at length iirc). Let's not rehash it.
In the end it's up to the OP anyway and he's seen both viewpoints now.

[torrasque666]

It also has the Vampire Lord template, which makes it undead.

@OP seconding the "wish to be immune to turning" suggestion.


It can't be both and the Dread Vampire template offers no reason to apply it second. There's no reason for the creature to be undead at all.


OP said it had both, and he's allowed to House Rule it anyway he wants, so yes, it can and is both.


OP said no such thing, that I can see.


Are we reading the same internet? Nothing in the OP said the creature is both undead and an outsider. As far as the OP is concerned, it's just an undead.

I found the issue. (From what I can tell)You assumed that afrokuma meant that it was both Outsider and Demon, while he was referring to it not being able to have both Vampirre Lord and Dread Vampire(which are different things), which was a mistake made by Rater. I assumed that you meant OP never said it had both templates. Thus, we both made an error.


That, on the other hand, was quite clearly implicit in the OP. The OP applied Demon Lord first, then Dread Vampire, otherwise this would never have been a concern. Presumably this is because the creature used to be a Demon Lord and is now a Dread Vampire. I don't think we should assume the backstory can be messed with unless the OP mentions it.

That is your opinion, and while I welcome it and in fact agree with it in most cases, OP asked how to prevent spam turning on it. Easiest way is to reverse the template applications. As far as backstory is concerned, there is no reason why backstory must perfectly match up with mechanics. If the OP wants him to be a vampiric NPC who is also a demon lord, other than OP who can say that it must be in that order? He hasn't actually replied yet, so its just as presumptuous to assume that the backstory is​ immutable.

[nolongerchaos]

You could use Limited Wish to cast Life Ward, then make it permanent. Should solve your problems and avoid pesky Heals.

[ahenobarbi]

You could also make sure the area where fight take place is Descarated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm), which will give -3 profane penalty to turn (but not rebuke) undead checks.

[Rater202]

Mistake on my Part-I read "Dread Vampire" as "Vampire Lord"

It was midnight, was tired.

Generally though, once something's undead it tends to stay undead, and that's a place where RAW tends t get ignored by all but the lawyerest of rules loyars and the cheesiest of optomisers.

No offense to either group of players, just saying sometimes logic trumps RAW.

[atemu1234]

It's a demon lord, which means it's an outsider, not undead. Unless said Radiant Servant of Pelor has some clever thing which lets him turn/destroy evil outsiders, your NPC is immune to that sort of nonsense.

It's an undead. Dread Vampire can be applied to outsiders, which at that point become undead.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The type doesn't really matter all that much. Every cleric can turn (but not destroy) outsiders at level 3 with Turn Anathema (CC). Not that the distinction matters much. 10 rounds of cowering is pretty much a death sentence anyway.
Throw on Light of Faith and Light of Wisdom (both CC) and the cleric can turn pretty much anything that doesn't have 10 or more effective HD more than him.

And lets not even get started on actually optimized turning - he wouldn't just turn the demon lord, he could actually command it (indefinitely).

I did just remember that there's a spell that prevents a cleric from using turning though. SpC i believe, but the actual name escapes me.

[Shalist]

How do I stop the 23rd level, radiant servant of pelor Cleric with the Sun domain from just spam-turning him until he goes poof-poof flambe?

Lifeward (cleric 4, SC 131) shuts down positive energy (ie, 'turn undead') for min/lvl (or a...+4? armor enhancement), or cast via a clerical minion.
LIFE WARD
A creature warded by this spell gains protection from the effects of positive energy, including magical healing. The spell can be cast upon undead to offer additional protection against the turning abilities of clerics. The subject is immune to all positive energy effects, including conjuration (healing) spells, channeled positive energy such as from the turn undead ability, or other effects that derive their power from positive energy.

Said clerical minion can also 'bolster undead' on the sorcerer, and on the waves of weak undead that are pouring into the area to soak up turn attempts.

For the sorcerer, the Cloak of Turn Resistance (11,000g; MIC pg 89) provides +4 turn resistance, as do various feats in undead-themed books.

---

Additionally, turn undead requires 'line of effect,' and the target can't have total cover...so using a tower shield for total cover could conceivably shut your cleric down without being the least bit cheesy; also, Wall of ---- / dispelling screen / etc / etc would do wonders (bonus points if such obstacles have been made invisible).

'desecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm)' imposes a -3 profane penalty to the turn charisma check (-6 in thematically appropriate locations), and 'unhallow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/unhallow.htm)' imposes a -4 unnamed penalty to all turn checks.

The Darkskull (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#darkskull) (SRD, 60k) is a portable unhallow, and half-fiends (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm) (i.e. minions) with 3+ HD get desecrate as a SLA, so it's not even a stretch flavor- or crunch-wise for your baddies to have access to both.

edit: RAW, you can tie a 'deathward' to a hallow affect, so I don't think it'd be unreasonable to allow 'life ward' to be tied to an unhallow affect (assuming you're casting it, rather than using the darkskull, mind you)...

[thematgreen]

As the DM you could always just go and give him plot armor and say that the Turning doesn't work and just don't say why. Why would the PC's every figure it out? Do something where the first blast of turning makes him cover his eyes and scream as his skin starts to burn, but then his wounds close and he starts laughing as the turning fails.

[afroakuma]

It's an undead. Dread Vampire can be applied to outsiders, which at that point become undead.

As I pointed out before, it's worthless to apply Dread Vampire after Demon Lord - the template offers no additional abilities based on what Demon Lord confers. So you make it a Dread Vampire, then you apply Demon Lord and it becomes an outsider. Turn Anathema will still get it at that point, of course, but most types can be turned by a cleric with the right setup. Undead's the only generically vulnerable one.

[Urpriest]

As the DM you could always just go and give him plot armor and say that the Turning doesn't work and just don't say why. Why would the PC's every figure it out? Do something where the first blast of turning makes him cover his eyes and scream as his skin starts to burn, but then his wounds close and he starts laughing as the turning fails.

Why though? Why not have fun as the DM, and come up with a reason?

[Vogonjeltz]

Why though? Why not have fun as the DM, and come up with a reason?

This would be a great reason for the NPC the actually have considered such things:


You turn the closest turnable undead first, and you can’t turn undead that are more than 60 feet away or that have total cover relative to you. You don’t need line of sight to a target, but you do need line of effect.

NPC makes an effort to not be within 60' of any Clerics or Paladins. Uses Minions/summoning of undead to soak up turn attempts. (If there's a bunch of skeletons in between the big bad and the cleric, the skeletons basically function as turn armor, soaking up turning dice).

Make use of walls/mazes (don't let the players use a map to simulate their inability to orient themselves).

Disguise himself so it's not obvious he's undead.

[VoxRationis]

There's a spell in the Spell Compendium (Divine Interdiction?) which prevents the target cleric from channeling positive or negative energy.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. Pick any magic item that grants immunity to death and negative energy effects (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items), which is based on the spell Death Ward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm). For example, the Soulfire armor enchantment.
2. Use Life Ward from Spell Compendium to create an equivalent item that grants complete immunity to all positive energy effects, including Turn Undead attempts.
3. ???
4. Profit.

Also note that there's a Vampire Lord (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a) template, though it needs a few items updated from 3.0 to 3.5 edition.

Additionally, if he was created by a Dread Necromancer 8+ with at least one level of Wizard with Enhanced Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#necromancerVariants) who also had the Corpsecrafter line of feats in LM within the area of a Fell Energy Spell Desecrate with an evil altar present, he'll get +12 hp per level in addition to the other benefits of each of those effects.

[torrasque666]

Additionally, if he was created by a Dread Necromancer 8+ with at least one level of Wizard with Enhanced Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#necromancerVariants) who also had the Corpsecrafter line of feats in LM within the area of a Fell Energy Spell Desecrate with an evil altar present, he'll get +12 hp per level in addition to the other benefits of each of those effects.

Ok, there's a little bit of leeway with Necropolitan when it comes to that, but only the cheesiest interpretations of those abilities would allow that with Vampires. Those are pretty clearly intended to work with the Create/Animate Undead line of effects, not with transformations. Vampires are more transformed than created. At the very least the Corpsecrafter stuff doesn't work as those all reference necromancy spells, which vampiric transformations aren't.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ok, there's a little bit of leeway with Necropolitan when it comes to that, but only the cheesiest interpretations of those abilities would allow that with Vampires. Those are pretty clearly intended to work with the Create/Animate Undead line of effects, not with transformations. Vampires are more transformed than created. At the very least the Corpsecrafter stuff doesn't work as those all reference necromancy spells, which vampiric transformations aren't.

The standard transformation method doesn't work with outsiders, though. The source of this vampire would almost certainly need to be some sort of powerful magic, then, which would definitely be a necromancy effect of some kind.

[torrasque666]

I'm sorry, are outsiders immune to Con drain? Because a Dread Vampire can turn any living creature with an Int of 3 or greater into a Dread Vampire through their energyblood drain.

Educate yourself: www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/dread-vampire-cr-3 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/dread-vampire-cr-3) its both more powerful than a regular Vampire as well as easier to get into.

Surprisingly, I found nothing to indicate that a Demon Lord is immune to energy or ability drain. Neither the template nor the subtypes that go along with it grant immunity to such things.

[Coidzor]

OP said it had both, and he's allowed to House Rule it anyway he wants, so yes, it can and is both.

Which makes it quite silly to insist that being both just means the monster gets dusted by a Greater Turning, since he's also allowed to use this dichotomy of being undead and a demon to get out of this corner easily, especially since he's only concerned about a dusting instagib, not any kind of other inconvenience to the boss monster.

[jiriku]

Make the base race of the enemy something with, say 4 racial hit dice. This need not even increase his CR, since the first few levels of sorcerer will advance CR as non-associated class levels.

For example, a human sorcerer 20, by the book, has 20 HD and is CR 20.
An ogre sorcerer 20, by the book, has 24 HD and is CR 20 (2 from ogre, 2 from 4 levels of nonassociated sorcerer, and 16 from 16 levels of associated sorcerer). While it takes a Charisma penalty, is overall number of stat points is actually higher, so you can wind up with equal Charisma and higher stats overall by just dumping Str and Con and redistributing the spare points to offset the racial ability penalties.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Make the base race of the enemy something with, say 4 racial hit dice. This need not even increase his CR, since the first few levels of sorcerer will advance CR as non-associated class levels.

For example, a human sorcerer 20, by the book, has 20 HD and is CR 20.
An ogre sorcerer 20, by the book, has 24 HD and is CR 20 (2 from ogre, 2 from 4 levels of nonassociated sorcerer, and 16 from 16 levels of associated sorcerer). While it takes a Charisma penalty, is overall number of stat points is actually higher, so you can wind up with equal Charisma and higher stats overall by just dumping Str and Con and redistributing the spare points to offset the racial ability penalties.

A Dragonkin in the Draconomicon is a CR 3 at 7 HD, and it's a Monstrous Humanoid so Vampire could be applied to it normally. Adding on Sorcerer 20 will add 16.5 CR, which rounds down, so at Sorcerer 20 it's only CR 19 with 27 HD. On top of that it gets a fly speed, large size, reach, +7 natural armor, +8 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Wis, +2 Cha, two claw attacks, two rake attacks, Detect Magic at will, and of course adding class levels gives it the elite array without adjusting its CR.