E6: Bonus Damage Dice

[Extra Anchovies]

Let's see how many bonus damage dice (sneak attack, etc) we can get on a non-gestalt E6 character's attacks. To start, I'll suggest Rogue 1/Ninja 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Swordsage 2/Assassin 1, learning Assassin's Stance at 5th level. That's a 1:1 dice:level ratio, with +5d6 sneak attackand +1d6 sudden strike.

Is that as high a ratio as we can get? Are there any ways to replace that die of Sudden Strike with a die of Sneak Attack?

[sideswipe]

of a very similar thing you could get +9d6 from iaijitsu
you could replace ninja with psychic rogue or spell thief for sneak attack instead of sudden strike

[Extra Anchovies]

of a very similar thing you could get +9d6 from iaijitsu
you could replace ninja with psychic rogue or spell thief for sneak attack instead of sudden strike

Well, this is E6; I can nab Skill Knowledge (Iaijutsu Focus) or (if human) Able Learner, and just rank Iaijutsu that way. It burns a feat, but feats aren't super hard to come by in E6.

As for Psychic Rogue or Spellthief, I think Psychic Rogue is the better idea. Thanks to Psionic Talent and the Psionic version of the E6 Expanded Knowledge feat (requires character level 6th; it grants you one power known of any level you already know), I could keep expanding the psionic abilities, but the spellthief's stuff would be stuck at low-level.

Now I actually want to play this character, because I think it might actually be effective. Once I hit 6th level, I could pick up a few Ambush feats for more versatility.

Thanks for suggesting the Psychic Rogue!

[KingSmitty]

well you did take sword sage, soaring raptor strike maneuver adds 6d6. theres some with even more but thats a start

[Seerow]

How do you plan to ever hit anything? Please tell me you're using fractional BAB or something. A 6th level martially oriented character with +2 BAB makes me sad.

[Extra Anchovies]

How do you plan to ever hit anything? Please tell me you're using fractional BAB or something. A 6th level martially oriented character with +2 BAB makes me sad.

I always, always play with fractional BAB and saves. This guy ends up with +4 BAB and +4 on all saves, which I think is a cute coincidence.

[HMS Invincible]

How about this: Factotum, Font of inspiration feat taken over and over again to gain geometrically more and more points. Spend inspiration points to gain sneak attack dice.
http://dndtools.eu/feats/dungeonscape--63/font-of-inspiration--3181/
http://dndtools.eu/classes/factotum/
See cunning strike.

[malonkey1]

How about this: Factotum, Font of inspiration feat taken over and over again to gain geometrically more and more points. Spend inspiration points to gain sneak attack dice.
http://dndtools.eu/feats/dungeonscape--63/font-of-inspiration--3181/
http://dndtools.eu/classes/factotum/
See cunning strike.
So, Factotum 4/Swordsage 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1 with Assassin's Stance taken at level 5?

[Extra Anchovies]

So, Factotum 4/Swordsage 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1 with Assassin's Stance taken at level 5?

The first stance I take has to be a 1st-level stance, sadly. Also, it's a third-level stance, not second-level as I thought, so I don't actually know if it fits in the original build without at least three levels of swordsage, and at that point it's not giving me more sneak attack than three of Rogue.

[malonkey1]

The first stance I take has to be a 1st-level stance, sadly. Also, it's a third-level stance, not second-level as I thought, so I don't actually know if it fits in the original build without at least three levels of swordsage, and at that point it's not giving me more sneak attack than three of Rogue.

In that case, just go Factotum 4/SA Fighter 1/Rogue 1. Racking up Fonts of Inspiration will obviously be your goal. And if you can get, I think it's called something like a rogue's vest? That gives you bonus Sneak Attack damage.

[Zaq]

Using Spellthief instead of Ninja will get you true SA instead of Sudden Strike.

[sideswipe]

In that case, just go Factotum 4/SA Fighter 1/Rogue 1. Racking up Fonts of Inspiration will obviously be your goal. And if you can get, I think it's called something like a rogue's vest? That gives you bonus Sneak Attack damage.

rogues vest gives +1d6 sneak attack i believe and +2 Hide and Move Silently and Ref save

[Seppo87]

Assassin's Stance can be purchased via feats. You either only need 1 swordsage level, or even a item that gives you a SH maneuver to qualify.

[Extra Anchovies]

Assassin's Stance can be purchased via feats. You either only need 1 swordsage level, or even a item that gives you a SH maneuver to qualify.

The issue is that I still need an initiator level of 5 to learn it, and I can't get that without four levels of swordsage, since this is E6. Unless IL requirements aren't enforced for Martial Study/Stance? I'm not sure.

[malonkey1]

The issue is that I still need an initiator level of 5 to learn it, and I can't get that without four levels of swordsage, since this is E6. Unless IL requirements aren't enforced for Martial Study/Stance? I'm not sure.

They are still enforced, so yeah, AS is not an option.

[BowStreetRunner]

The issue is that I still need an initiator level of 5 to learn it, and I can't get that without four levels of swordsage, since this is E6. Unless IL requirements aren't enforced for Martial Study/Stance? I'm not sure.
Unfortunately, you are correct here. Without levels in an martial adept class, the highest initiator level you can get is 3 at 6th level. And a Swordsage level 3 stance does in fact require 5 initiator levels. So while you could get your initiator levels from Warblade or Crusader and pick up the stance with feats, you still need 4 levels of martial adept classes in E6 to gain a 3rd level stance. Which is also problematic for your original build. As each non-martial adept class only counts as 1/2 level Rogue 1/Ninja 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Swordsage 2/Assassin 1 only has an initiator level of 4.

Here are the initiator levels that can be achieved in E6:


Martial Adept 6/Other 0 = IL 6
Martial Adept 5/Other 1 <or> Martial Adept 4/Other 2 = IL5
Martial Adept 3/Other 3 <or> Martial Adept 2/Other 4 = IL4
Martial Adept 1/Other 5 <or> Martial Adept 0/Other 6 = IL3

[Extra Anchovies]

Unfortunately, you are correct here. Without levels in an martial adept class, the highest initiator level you can get is 3 at 6th level. And a Swordsage level 3 stance does in fact require 5 initiator levels. So while you could get your initiator levels from Warblade or Crusader and pick up the stance with feats, you still need 4 levels of martial adept classes in E6 to gain a 3rd level stance. Which is also problematic for your original build. As each non-martial adept class only counts as 1/2 level Rogue 1/Ninja 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Swordsage 2/Assassin 1 only has an initiator level of 4.

Here are the initiator levels that can be achieved in E6:


Martial Adept 6/Other 0 = IL 6
Martial Adept 5/Other 1 <or> Martial Adept 4/Other 2 = IL5
Martial Adept 3/Other 3 <or> Martial Adept 2/Other 4 = IL4
Martial Adept 1/Other 5 <or> Martial Adept 0/Other 6 = IL3


Thanks for going through the math for me! Shame there isn't a Practiced Initiator feat... but that would be pretty borked if it did exist.

Nice Steven Brust quote in your sig, by the way. Not every day that I find someone else who knows about him.

[ace rooster]

A swift ambusher build with improved skirmish (and how many don't) gets 4d6 skirmish and 2d6 sneak attack straight off. No loss of Bab, and better saves than a single class of either. All it loses is a feat and trap sense (+2, it still gets +1).

I'm sure you can do better with cheese, but I thought I should bring swift ambusers up as a baseline.

[prufock]

If you end up with power points from any source, Psionic Shot/Weapon will grant you +2d6 when you expend your focus. Greater makes it +4d6, but you'd need +5 BAB somehow.