mutiple templates , i dont understand !!

[finaldooms]

Im sure this has been asked a couple times ,but what are the rules on 1 character having more than 1 template applied?

Im fairly new to the DM thing so I was not sure how it works and i have a player with more exp than me about to run in my game with a half celestial/half dragon duskblade, and he said that he gets to just add up all the stat bonuses for both templates ..so that means at lvl 1 ( with a +7 LA if i read this right) he gets to start off with +12 str, +2 dex, +6 con, +4int, +4 wis, AND +6 cha ? ..he also gets all the abilities from both templates and his class? also how does the hp for that work ..does he use the duskblade ( which is a d6 i belive) or does he get to use a die from each side ( class,and both templates) ? ..help would be appreciated :) im guna try running this game ina week lol

[Curmudgeon]

With +7 LA and 1 character level or racial hit die, you can't start before level 8. You just add up all the pieces to get the effective character level.

[finaldooms]

..apprently i dont understand LA either then.. i thought that meant your effective lvl was 8 ( 7+1 in this case) but you brought your guy in as a lvl 1 for class and needed as much exp a lvl 8 needed to lvl up to 9? ..also if thats not the case does that mean he gets to roll hp for 8 lvls before being played?..and if so does he use the class hd of d6 or the half dragon with its +1 to racial hd ..which i have no idea what that would be since he has 2 templates..celestial since it came first i guess?

[Greenish]

..apprently i dont understand LA either then.. i thought that meant your effective lvl was 8 ( 7+1 in this case) but you brought your guy in as a lvl 1 for class and needed as much exp a lvl 8 needed to lvl up to 9? ..also if thats not the case does that mean he gets to roll hp for 8 lvls before being played?..and if so does he use the class hd of d6 or the half dragon with its +1 to racial hd ..which i have no idea what that would be since he has 2 templates..celestial since it came first i guess?Here, have a handbook. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook)

The long and the short of it is, though, that if you're starting the game with PCs at level 1, he doesn't get to be a half-dragon or half-celestial.

[finaldooms]

guess im guna read that thread lol ..and we are starting at lvl 3 actually..currently have a half celestial/half dragon ..as i stated.. a stone giant..a warforged..and 2 others that i dont know of yet ..pretty much i know the half/half is guna be op for a while untill we get to lvl 5 for the group ( not counting ECL but class lvl ) then im guna start throwing dragons at us because everyone complains about not have enough dragons ..so im guna stuff them down everyones throat pretty much and im making items that pretty much call dragons to us ..hoping this works out

[Forrestfire]

ECL is equivalent to class level.

If your game is level 3, currently, your party is:


Warforged with 3 class levels = ECL 3
Stone Giant (14 hit dice, 4 LA) with 3 class levels = ECL 21
Half-Dragon, Half-Celestial (total LA 7) with 3 class levels = ECL 10


This is a very, very lopsided party. Stuff that challenges the stone giant will likely instantly squash the warforged and half/half, for example.

[Sir Garanok]

Let's say you have a rogue level 3 half-celestial/half-dragon.

He has 3 hit die from his class and none from the templates.

So,as correctly mentioned, he is practically a level 10 character.(with very low hp i am afraid)

In order to level up he needs to gets xp as a level 10 character would,to become a level 4 rogue.

SRD says:
Increase base creature’s racial HD by one die size, to a maximum of d12. Do not increase class HD.

So since celestial has no hd's it is just 3d6 + constitution hp

[ShurikVch]

With +7 LA and 1 character level or racial hit die, you can't start before level 8. Actually, he can, if he use LA variant from PGF
In that case, for every +1 LA character gain:

• –1 on skill checks and ability checks.
• –1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
• –1 on level checks (including caster level checks).
• –1 to the DC for any spell he casts or any other ability he uses that allows a saving throw.
• –1 to any constant Armor Class bonus granted by race, such as a natural armor bonus or the svirfneblin’s constant dodge bonus.
• –1 to racial level adjustment (to make the character effectively 1st level).

[Telonius]

If your party really wants to play those characters from level 3, there is a way to do that. The sourcebook "Savage Species" has some rules for playing high-HD or Level Adjustment monsters starting at very low levels. Instead of taking levels in Duskblade, for example, you'd take levels in "Half-Dragon." The general idea is that the class splits up the bonuses to increase gradually, rather than giving them all at once at level 1.

Stone Giant is fully statted out in the book.

(EDIT: Unfortunately the Half-Dragon savage progression was on WotC's website, and has now vanished into the ether).

[Forrestfire]

Half-dragon is right here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a).

[Telonius]

Ahh, thanks! Google doesn't seem to have caught up to all those files moving around on Wizards' site yet. (All the results I got were to friendly neighborhood "expert data hunters" and mirror pages).

[finaldooms]

If your game is level 3, currently, your party is:


Warforged with 3 class levels = ECL 3
Stone Giant (14 hit dice, 4 LA) with 3 class levels = ECL 21
Half-Dragon, Half-Celestial (total LA 7) with 3 class levels = ECL 10


This is a very, very lopsided party. Stuff that challenges the stone giant will likely instantly squash the warforged and half/half, for example.[/QUOTE]



bwhaha..wow if thats what the stone giant is then i have a big problem .-. and it also means my *vets* have been playing these way wrong D:
...also this didnt quote right and i have no idea why
.... also i know i keep editing this but i just realized i forgot to ask my question in here ..what if they are using multiple inherited templates? like the half/half ..does that mean for the first 4 lvls he would need to do half celestial. and then the next 3 lvls he needs to do half dragon?

[OldTrees1]

.... also i know i keep editing this but i just realized i forgot to ask my question in here ..what if they are using multiple inherited templates? like the half/half ..does that mean for the first 4 lvls he would need to do half celestial. and then the next 3 lvls he needs to do half dragon?

Inherited templates are gained before you gain class levels. So the minimum ECL of a half celestial/half dragon is ECL 8 (0 Racial Hit Dice, +4LA, +3LA, 1 class level).

However, as has been mentioned earlier, you are in luck, some templates have been converted into template classes (templates that can be taken +1LA at a time and can be taken before/in between/after class levels).
Half Dragon in 3 levels (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a)

So the Half Celestial / Half Dragon could start as a _insert race race_ Half Celestial Duskblade 1 [ECL 5] and then gain Half Dragon over the next 3 levels

[finaldooms]

.. i honestly dont see why anyone would want to play a monster after starting this thread lol, this just seems like way to much work for very little reward ..and just to confirm ..the half/half would be a lvl 8 pc ..so it would have 5 lvls over the rest of the party ( the ones with a +0 LA) if i started the majority at lvl 3

[torrasque666]

Aye, but that stone giant is much higher. 18 levels above the rest of the party.

[finaldooms]

yea..im guna have to change that stone giant.. or look at those lvl by lvl templates and see if i can work one out for him ..all this stuff just proves im new to this XD

got another question then...epic lvl is 21+ right? does epic only count for your class lvls? or is it your ECL ? had this issue a few games ago with a lizardfolk we had ( +1LA) ..his class lvl was 19 though..then 20 after killing a dragon in 2 rounds.
anyways..was he at epic range ( for epic rules ) at ECL 20 or ECL 21?

[SimonMoon6]

.. i honestly dont see why anyone would want to play a monster after starting this thread lol, this just seems like way to much work for very little reward ..

The point is to discourage people from playing monsters. Otherwise, nobody would ever play mere humans.

[finaldooms]

The point is to discourage people from playing monsters. Otherwise, nobody would ever play mere humans.

i can understand that after looking at this lol..at least the warforged is guna be simple

[OldTrees1]

.. i honestly dont see why anyone would want to play a monster after starting this thread lol, this just seems like way to much work for very little reward ..and just to confirm ..the half/half would be a lvl 8 pc ..so it would have 5 lvls over the rest of the party ( the ones with a +0 LA) if i started the majority at lvl 3

Many others have noticed this too.
Personally I like this solution: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?192151-Community-Based-Monster-Classes-VII

This way you can start each character at ECL 3:
Stone Giant 3
_Insert Race_ Half Celestial 1 / Half Dragon 1 / Duskblade 1
Warforged _Insert Class_ 3

[torrasque666]

Just wait until he takes all 5 levels of the Warforged Juggernaut Prestige Class. Becomes immune to basically everything you can throw at him. Except stunning and petrification in my experience.

[finaldooms]

i think i talked him into running as an artificer..which im ok with since we will need stronger weapons lol..his other choice was a monk with the vow of poverty and it ends up annoying me since i cant give him anything if it isnt cursed ( he has to give it away or throw it away otherwise) ..and i like that thread that was added..probly guna use that cause it makes sense

btw HD ? ..would that be the total lvl of a caracter ? always thought HD was the number of dice needed to roll for hp aka lvl 15 fighter rolls 15 d10 .. and lvl 5 fighter/ 10 rogue rolls 5d10 and 10d6 still =15

[OldTrees1]

i think i talked him into running as an artificer..which im ok with since we will need stronger weapons lol..his other choice was a monk with the vow of poverty and it ends up annoying me since i cant give him anything if it isnt cursed ( he has to give it away or throw it away otherwise) ..and i like that thread that was added..probly guna use that cause it makes sense

btw HD ? ..would that be the total lvl of a caracter ? always thought HD was the number of dice needed to roll for hp aka lvl 15 fighter rolls 15 d10 .. and lvl 5 fighter/ 10 rogue rolls 5d10 and 10d6 still =15

HD(all dice used for hp including any dice from race) + LA = ECL (aka true level)

[Necroticplague]

btw HD ? ..would that be the total lvl of a caracter ? always thought HD was the number of dice needed to roll for hp aka lvl 15 fighter rolls 15 d10 .. and lvl 5 fighter/ 10 rogue rolls 5d10 and 10d6 still =15
O.k., you're right on that point.

However, we also frequently use "HD" to indicate how many of those dice a person has, which is useful to resist a lot of spells that target based on HD (sleep, Word (Holy, dictum, blasphemy), circle of death). So in both cases, that character has 15 HD. If you don't have any LA, your ECL=HD. However, if you have any LA, your ECL=HD+LA. Classes provide their own HD (that would be the d4-12, although save and BAB progression is usually lumped in because its all part of the same progression), except in the case of official monster classes (which often have levels without HD), or template classes. Your Type can also provide HD (like the Giant should have 14 HD from the Giant type, giving him 14d8, BAB+10/+5, FORT+9,REF+4,WILL+4, and 34+17*int skill point before any class levels).

Yeah, your earlier assessment about how much being a monster PC sucks is pretty much on the dot. LA is a vicious killer, and RHD are only marginally better.

[finaldooms]

awsome that means i got it mostly right, just need to remember HD is pretty much what your ECL is guna be :) ..guna have to talk to my friend who wants the stone giant cause now that im having to look at all this i dont think there is anything i could throw at even just him that wouldnt accidently kill the whole party

[finaldooms]

now the fun part of explaining this to the guys who " know better " bwhahha

[ShurikVch]

now the fun part of explaining this to the guys who " know better " bwhahha If he wish to play "stone giant", I may suggest for him Half-Giant with Half-Ogre and Mineral Warrior (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) templates.
Large Giant (earth)
+14 Str, -4 Dex, +10 Con, -4 Int, -2 Wis, -4 Cha;
Burrow at ½ Land speed
Low-light vision, Darkvision 60’
+7 natural armor
DR 8/adamantine
Fire Acclimated (+2 racial save)
Powerful Build - count as Huge
Naturally Psionic (2 pp)
Stomp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/stomp.htm), 1/day
Earth Strike, 1/day
Level Adjustment: +3

(It's large giant with stone skin, but without any racial HD, and with smaller LA)

[finaldooms]

well..after explaining the half/half to the guy who wanted to do that..he changed his mind and is guna look for something else go figure lol..the guy who wants the stone giant il look into that :) or i might use the create a monster class thread that was put up earlier because i found that rather intresting as well

[Ruethgar]

If he wish to play "stone giant", I may suggest for him Half-Giant with Half-Ogre and Mineral Warrior (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) templates.
Large Giant (earth)
+14 Str, -4 Dex, +10 Con, -4 Int, -2 Wis, -4 Cha;
Burrow at ½ Land speed
Low-light vision, Darkvision 60’
+7 natural armor
DR 8/adamantine
Fire Acclimated (+2 racial save)i
Powerful Build - count as Huge
Naturally Psionic (2 pp)
Stomp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/stomp.htm), 1/day
Earth Strike, 1/day
Level Adjustment: +3

(It's large giant with stone skin, but without any racial HD, and with smaller LA)

This, for the giant it will probably be the best option. You could also go Goliath which are flavorfully similar to stone giants. As to the half dragon celestial, Dragonwrought Kobold with Chaos Shuffle in the backstory(experimented on by a dragon for example) to get rid of his two racial feats so you can take Dragon Wings and Dragon Tail then you can take the Celestial or Half Celestial templates to taste.

[torrasque666]

Wait, what racial feats do kobolds have?

[Thurbane]

Side question: is there actually any rule that says an ECL 8 character can't adventure alongside ECL 1 characters? The above half-celestial/half-dragon duskblade won't get his second class level until the others hit 9th level, and will be earning significantly less XP than his team mates along the way, so they may even hot 10th or so before he gets to 2nd (ECL 9).

[OldTrees1]

Side question: is there actually any rule that says an ECL 8 character can't adventure alongside ECL 1 characters? The above half-celestial/half-dragon duskblade won't get his second class level until the others hit 9th level, and will be earning significantly less XP than his team mates along the way, so they may even hot 10th or so before he gets to 2nd (ECL 9).

Nope. It can even make an interesting campaign for some groups.

[Forrestfire]

There's no rule against it, but it would make things very awkward. On one hand, he's going to have some more utility compared to them and have some ok damage from stats and breath weapon. On the other hand, he will have 1 hit die worth of HP until level 9, and past a few levels in, almost every enemy is going to one-shot him, since his templates have no real defensive abilities built in.

[finaldooms]

my half half apprently is using this character from another game and was using a thing the last DM gave him.. he was allowed to have a total of 32hp at starting lvl instead of just the 6+ con he shoulda got.. his dm jsut made things weird

[OldTrees1]

Would you post this custom PC? Since it is the wild card, we can give better advice with more information.

I suspect the best option forward would be to estimate the fair ECL of the custom PC (WotC tends to make unfair Level Adjustments) and then start everyone at that ECL (using the homebrewed monster classes and/or more balanced substitutions like Mineral Warrior)

[finaldooms]

he decided to change over to a half celestial only , which im ok with and dont care about now lol..and the stone giant went with the homebrewed option ( only needs 8lvls in giant and gains more bonuses based on HD hurrah ..so still good potentil later on) sorry for all the hassle with this and thanks alot for all the help :) il be browsing around on here alot more now that i made an account lol ..spent the whole last night untill work reading all various threads that my attention

edit : also ..he doesnt have all the extra stuff written down on the half/half which makes it hard to explain ..just asking him i heard something about being allowed to roll 2d10+ 2d6 + something else .which makes this just sound really freaken weird.. i AM guna let him use his HD for the half celestial so he can get more spells/abilities since he is guna focus on the spell part of duskblade ..and it requires RHD otherwise from what i saw