Elite Array Question 3.5

[Chester]

OK, I'm a bit dense, but I'm missing this....what would the elite array for a young adult blue dragon with a few levels of sorcerer look like?

[sideswipe]

if you are asking what abilities go where then this is most likely

14
12
13
10
8
15

then add dragon stuff.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm not going to comment on your density or lack thereof, but your question makes no sense. Dragons have ability scores based on their age category. They do not use the elite array or any other prearranged combination of ability scores other than the ones they are given. Adding levels in Sorcerer or any other class does not change this.

Even if it were the case, the elite array does not change depending on what creature or character class it is applied to. It is always 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 (arranged in whatever order you wish).

Perhaps if you could rephrase your question into one that is more meaningful, we might better be able to help you.

[sideswipe]

I'm not going to comment on your density or lack thereof, but your question makes no sense. Dragons have ability scores based on their age category. They do not use the elite array or any other prearranged combination of ability scores other than the ones they are given. Adding levels in Sorcerer or any other class does not change this.

Even if it were the case, the elite array does not change depending on what creature or character class it is applied to. It is always 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 (arranged in whatever order you wish).

Perhaps if you could rephrase your question into one that is more meaningful, we might better be able to help you.

i think he meant using the improving monster rules to give it the elite array. so i gave a suggestion on how you would do it.

[Hamste]

I'm not going to comment on your density or lack thereof, but your question makes no sense. Dragons have ability scores based on their age category. They do not use the elite array or any other prearranged combination of ability scores other than the ones they are given. Adding levels in Sorcerer or any other class does not change this.

Even if it were the case, the elite array does not change depending on what creature or character class it is applied to. It is always 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 (arranged in whatever order you wish).

Perhaps if you could rephrase your question into one that is more meaningful, we might better be able to help you.

I think the idea is if you were to replace a dragon's stats with elite array what order would you put them in. Though to be honest I'm not 100% sure.


I was ninja'd

[Chester]

i think he meant using the improving monster rules to give it the elite array. so i gave a suggestion on how you would do it.

Yes, thanks for clarifying!

[KillianHawkeye]

If that's the case, you can place the ability scores any way you want. You can determine the racial ability score modifications by subtracting 10 (if even) or 11 (if odd) from the listed ability score. For a young adult blue dragon, that's +12 Strength, +8 Constitution, +4 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, and +4 Charisma.

Since we are now talking about individual NPCs, there is no general guideline about which numbers you should place in which ability score. Some dragons might prefer to have a high Strength and other scores good for melee combat, while others might prefer a high Intelligence for skills or a high Charisma for spellcasting. It's whatever you want at that point.

[Cruiser1]

OK, I'm a bit dense, but I'm missing this....what would the elite array for a young adult blue dragon with a few levels of sorcerer look like?
Every monster's unbuffed stats are (some array + racial modifiers). Most monsters use the standard array (all 10's and 11's). Some monsters like dragons have very high racial modifiers (meaning the array has less effect), while humans have no racial modifiers (meaning the array determines everything).

The elite array of (15,14,13,12,10,8) when compared to the standard array is (+4,+4,+2,+2,0,-2). That means you can upgrade any monster known to be based on the standard array to elite array, by taking the ability adjustments of (+4,+4,+2,+2,0,-2) and distributing them where you want.

[Extra Anchovies]

A quick, sorta-shortcut for applying Elite Array to monsters: Add five to their important score (in this case, Charisma), four to their next most important (dexterity, I'd say), then three, then two, then zero, and then reduce their least important score by two. Assuming Cha>Dex>Wis>Int>Con>Str, it would be like so for a young adult blue:

Str 21 (base 23, -2 elite)
Dex 14 (base 10, +4 elite)
Con 19 (base 19, +0 elite)
Int 16 (base 14, +2 elite)
Wis 18 (base 15, +3 elite)
Cha 24 (base 14, +5 elite, +5 [1 per 4 HD; I'm assuming at least two levels of sorcerer. Add another 1 for every four levels above 2nd])

From this, we can conclude that dragons somehow manage to be even scarier than normal once you start adding things on. I'd say pretty much any PC class other than rogue (and other skillmonkeys1) or monk counts as an "associated level" for a dragon, so up the CR by 1 per class level (the elite array adjustment doesn't stack with class level adjustments).

1However, a dragon Factotum would be pretty terrifying, considering how high their intelligence scores get.

[ace rooster]

A quick, sorta-shortcut for applying Elite Array to monsters: Add five to their important score (in this case, Charisma), four to their next most important (dexterity, I'd say), then three, then two, then zero, and then reduce their least important score by two. Assuming Cha>Dex>Wis>Int>Con>Str, it would be like so for a young adult blue:

Str 21 (base 23, -2 elite)
Dex 14 (base 10, +4 elite)
Con 19 (base 19, +0 elite)
Int 16 (base 14, +2 elite)
Wis 18 (base 15, +3 elite)
Cha 24 (base 14, +5 elite, +5 [1 per 4 HD; I'm assuming at least two levels of sorcerer. Add another 1 for every four levels above 2nd])

From this, we can conclude that dragons somehow manage to be even scarier than normal once you start adding things on. I'd say pretty much any PC class other than rogue (and other skillmonkeys1) or monk counts as an "associated level" for a dragon, so up the CR by 1 per class level (the elite array adjustment doesn't stack with class level adjustments).

1However, a dragon Factotum would be pretty terrifying, considering how high their intelligence scores get.

You don't get extra abilities for standard racial hit dice. Boosts are skipped if you start at too many HD. The ogre barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm#ogreBarbarian) is an example, and only gets 1 extra ability boost. The 2 sorc levels take the HD to 20, so he gets one boost. Other than that good method for applying the elite array. Personally I prefer dragon warblades, remembering that racial HD add 1/2 initiator level. :smalleek:

[Divide by Zero]

OK, I'm a bit dense, but I'm missing this....what would the elite array for a young adult blue dragon with a few levels of sorcerer look like?

To determine a creature's stat modifiers from its base stats, you subtract 11 if it's odd, or 10 if it's even. For a young adult blue dragon:

Str 23-11 = +12
Dex 10-10 = +0
Con 19-11 = +8
Int 14-10 = +4
Wis 15-11 = +4
Cha 14-10 = +4

So take the elite array, arrange it in whatever order you like, then apply those modifiers to it.

[Jeff the Green]

A quick, sorta-shortcut for applying Elite Array to monsters: Add five to their important score (in this case, Charisma), four to their next most important (dexterity, I'd say), then three, then two, then zero, and then reduce their least important score by two.

Be careful with this, though. Be sure to reduce all odd abilities by 1 first or you could end up with an effective array of 16, 15, 14, 12, 10, 8, which is noticeably better.

[Extra Anchovies]

Be careful with this, though. Be sure to reduce all odd abilities by 1 first or you could end up with an effective array of 16, 15, 14, 12, 10, 8, which is noticeably better.

Thanks for catching that, I always forget that bit. Why, why, why oh why did they think it was a good idea to give all the monsters three odd scores? Sure, it looks nicer, but when adding class levels it just makes stuff more complex ("subtract 10 from each score" is easier than "subtract 10 from each even score and 11 from each odd score").