Pimp my Bard

[mister__joshua]

I'm creating a character for our new 5e game starting next week and I'm looking to play a Lore Bard. I really like everything about the character's style, and plan to play with a focus on enchantment where possible. My only real problem is that our DM normally tends to run combat-heavy at times, and this is where the class looks a little weak. I don't want to fall behind or be useless in some circumstances so I'm looking at ways to mitigate this.

These are a few ideas I've come up with. I've no idea how well each would work, but they're things I'm thinking about

1: Take a level of Fighter
Pros: This would give good weapon and armour proficiencies and a +2 Ranged style. If taken first would also give Con save proficiency. Would use a longbow in combination with Haste or Swift Quiver.
Cons: Requires a high investment in Dex. Would require Sharpshooter to be effective. Would get spells a level later than a standard Bard.

2: Take 2 levels of Warlock
Pros: This would give Eldritch Blast with Agonising Blast for good sustainable damage. Would also give access to a couple of great spells like Hex and Armour of Agathys. Only requires focusing on Charisma.
Cons: Delaying spells gained by 2 levels. Missing out on a feat/stat if we hit level 20

3: Take a level of Sorcerer
Pros: Would give 4 additional Cantrips such as Fire Bolt and Shocking Grasp for good utility. Dragon heritage would give constant AC13 and a hit point. A couple of extra spells known such as Shield. Charisma focus.
Cons: Not as damaging as the Warlock. Delays spells by 1 level.


That's all I've got so far. I'd appreciate any thoughts or suggestions on the best way to go. I will be alongside a Wizard, a Fighter, a Monk and a Paladin. I can't think of any way that doesn't sacrifice spell levels, except just using Magical Secret to pick up Fire Bolt but that alone isn't a good pay-off I don't think. I'm unsure how some of the Warlock and Bard abilities work together, like the spell recovery.

Cheers

[Yorrin]

Well, it sounds like you've got a pretty good idea of your options. I get the impression you've played 3.5? Unlike 3.5, 5e does not hold to the golden rule of "dont give up caster levels." In fact, the multi with Sorc doesn't loose you any spell slots at all- thanks to multiclassing rules on casting. Warlock is an interesting dip for a bard, as you've now got a couple 1st level slots that refresh on a short rest, making your healing/buffing/social spells go a bit further.

[mister__joshua]

Yeah, I played most of my D&D in 3.5, but what I meant was that although I'm losing no castings (and even gaining some in the Warlock's case) I am delaying my access to higher level spells available. How important that'll be I don't know. I can still use the slots to overcast, but won't be rocking some of the big ones til later.

[Yagyujubei]

all of those things are good choices. I dont see though why you would list needing to invest in DEX or CHA as cons for the first two options....as a bard your main stats are dex and con to begin with, so it synergizes perfectly.

strictly speaking two levels in warlock gives you the most bang for your buck imho. Sure you delay bard spells for two levels, but you get 2 short rest spell slots. one of which can be sleep which is horribly useful early on, and eldritch blast is some of the easiest to obtain scaling reliable damage for CHA based characters, plus you get the two invocations (well one since you'll want agonizing blast) which add some really useful at will effects (devils sight and arcane eye seem like strong choices here).

you would lose your final ability bump though...

EDIT: and with Bard, getting some of the higher spell slots a bit later isnt quite as bad as it would be with other classes, due to magical secrets. the reason for this is because you get access to paladin and ranger spells, which scale a bit harder because the classes get access to 5th level spells so late. what I mean to say is that there are some ranger/paladin 5th lvl spells that put other 5th level spells to shame, so picking those up with magical secrets would offset getting the higher spell slots at least a bit.

[Person_Man]

My thoughts:

The Bard is not weak in combat. You can use weapons that deal 2ish points less damage then martial classes, and when a difficult combat occurs you can usually win it with a single spell. Seriously, read the Bard's spells, some are awesome. And then remember that you can choose from anyone's spell list once you hit mid levels.

If you're going to use weapons as your primary at-will damage option above level 5+ then you basically need the Extra Attack class feature. So if you want to be a Lore Bard, then you'll probably want to rely on Cantrips instead of weapons once you get to level 5ish+.

Variant Human can spend his 1st level Feat to get additional Cantrips, if lack of at-will options is really that big of a a concern for you. Half-Elf is also considered a very strong option for any Cha based class, since you can get +2 Cha, +1 to any two other ability scores (presumably Dex and Con), Darkvision (which is very important at low levels if your DM pays attention to the illumination rules), Advantage vs Charm, Immune to magical sleep, and two extra Skill proficiencies of your choice.

Warlock spells like Hex and Armour of Agathys are useful because the Warlock can replenish his spell uses with a Short Rest and are always cast out of the highest level spell the Warlock can cast up to 5th level. They're useful for a couple of encounters, but then you either get hit and lose Concentration or the spell just burns out on its own, but then you take a Short Rest and cast them again. (That's also why the Warlock only gets so few spell uses per Short Rest). The Bard replenishes his spell uses with a Long Rest, and his spells don't scale unless they're cast out of higher level slots. So Warlock/Bard is useful to bump up your at-will damage by a few points, but not for much else.

If you really want to multi-class, Paladin 2/Valor Bard 18 would also be worth considering, since Paladin provides armor and weapon proficiencies, Fighting Style, Lay on Hands, and Smite. Smite provides bonus damage, and is fueled by spell uses. Because the Bard spells and spell uses scale more quickly then the Paladin, and the Bard can also cherry pick the Paladin or Ranger spells that add additional damage + effect (which can be stacked with Smite), this combination has some of the best burst damage potential.

[mister__joshua]

@Yagyujubei

Yeah, Dex is already his second highest stat but if using it as a main attack then I think it'd want to be maxed eventually, or at least I'd feel the need to push it higher than it is currently


@Person_Man

Cheers for all that. I won't consider Paladin as a option as the party already contains one, but it's a nice idea. I have no doubt that Bards are excellent in combat. My fear is that, based on past experience, things can get a bit heavy going encounter-wise in our campaigns and compared to the other casters Bards don't really seem to have the same fall-back options as the others. As you said, to remain doing physical damage (I'm currently using a crossbow, which is fine at level 1) I'd need a regular second attack at some point and as I wanted to go the Lore route that isn't coming. The Cantrip option is then Fire Bolt or taking the Warlock levels. I aren't sure if Fire Bolt on it's own is too good (without the extra damage a Sorc or Evoker would get).
My character is already a Half-Elf, but thanks for the suggestion anyway.

I thought Hex at level 1 would still be a good spell, as with the Eldritch Blast it's an extra 4d6 damage. I don't know how useful the ability check bit is as I don't think it applied to attacks or saves, but still handy.

I'm really quite confused about how the Pact Magic recovery thing works when multi-classing. I assume I'd just be able to recover 2 1st level spell slots in a short rest, which is still quite nice even if I had to cast the Warlock spells I had at a higher level.

[Yagyujubei]

you're correct about the MC pact magic rules, you just get two first level slots that refresh on short rest. HOWEVER they don't have to be warlock spells in those two slots just to be clear, although I don't know why they wouldn't be.

Also, I really feel like Hex would apply to saves since those are ability checks which is what makes it so good, you can soften up enemy resistance for a save or suck spell beforehand.

I saw in your thread on the official forums that you had been considering shortbow+swiftquiver, but that's going to yield less dps than a straight agonizing EB would deal at every level so I would avoid it.

Honestly it might be strongest to grab Agonizing EB and then take lore bard the rest of the way. you have EB+Hex which can last up to 8 or 24 hours depending upon which slot you put it in for your consistent dps, and then you can have a huge amount of utility and control from your bard spell list.

[Yorrin]

Also, I really feel like Hex would apply to saves since those are ability checks which is what makes it so good, you can soften up enemy resistance for a save or suck spell beforehand.

Nope. There are three d20 rolls in this game: checks, saves, and attacks. Checks =/= saves.

[Yagyujubei]

Nope. There are three d20 rolls in this game: checks, saves, and attacks. Checks =/= saves.

eh...it would still be useful to cripple perception if he was playin a stealthy character then

[mister__joshua]

I saw in your thread on the official forums that you had been considering shortbow+swiftquiver, but that's going to yield less dps than a straight agonizing EB would deal at every level so I would avoid it.

Honestly it might be strongest to grab Agonizing EB and then take lore bard the rest of the way. you have EB+Hex which can last up to 8 or 24 hours depending upon which slot you put it in for your consistent dps, and then you can have a huge amount of utility and control from your bard spell list.

Haha. There's a benefit to having the same username everywhere!

Yeah, that is what I was thinking. Also taking 2 levels of Warlock, although slowing your access to new spells, by level 20 is actually a good thing from a pure spellcasting. You don't lost any progression, know 3 more spells and have 2 more slots over a straight Bard. edit: I was wrong about that. I mistakenly thought Warlock advanced multiclass spellcasting. Instead you're trading a level 6 and 7 slot for 2 level 1 ones. You do know 3 more spells though. This is before factoring in the Eldritch Blast and invocation that I'm picking it up for. The trade off is one Feat/Stat increase and the Bard capstone ability to recover one Inspiration use on Initiative, which I think is a pretty good trade.

How necessary is the Spell Sniper feat to my chances? I'd like to pick it up but I'm weighing it against Resilient Con and Wis, and +2 Cha twice.

[Uldric]

The only thing with using Hex with a Bard is that most of the great Bard control spells require concentration.

[Yagyujubei]

Haha. There's a benefit to having the same username everywhere!

Yeah, that is what I was thinking. Also taking 2 levels of Warlock, although slowing your access to new spells, by level 20 is actually a good thing from a pure spellcasting. You don't lost any progression, know 3 more spells and have 2 more slots over a straight Bard. This is before factoring in the Eldritch Blast and invocation that I'm picking it up for. The trade off is one Feat/Stat increase and the Bard capstone ability to recover one Inspiration use on Initiative, which I think is a pretty good trade.

How necessary is the Spell Sniper feat to my chances? I'd like to pick it up but I'm weighing it against Resilient Con and Wis, and +2 Cha twice.

hmm, it is important because enemies will be getting partial cover way way more than you would expect (for instance any time your allies are meleeing it theres a good chance theyre also obscuring it from you) but even so I would say warcaster is more important to have if you werent already factoring it into your feat choices. although getting proficiency in CON is strictly better in the long long run, advantage will be more useful for lower to mid levels until your PB starts getting really big.

werent your starting stats incredibly high to begin with?

[mister__joshua]

The only thing with using Hex with a Bard is that most of the great Bard control spells require concentration.

Yeah, I think Hex in this case would be cast when needed rather than kept up all day like a Warlock would use it. Even if it doesn't see loads of use I like the fluff of Hexing people and think it fits the character quite well. I also intend to pick up Bestow Curse for example.

@Yagyujubei

I haven't posted my stats before. They're not incredibly high, but they're pretty good. someone else posted a Bard with ridiculous stats so maybe you saw that.

Anywho, mine are 12, 13, 13, 14, 14, 15. No one great stat but a good balance. We decided to risk it and all use single roll (as in, only roll one array) so I came out pretty good.
As a half-elf I went:
Str: 12
Dex: 15 (+1)
Con: 14 (+1)
Int: 13
Wis: 13
Cha: 14 (+2)

giving me
Str: 12 /+1
Dex: 16 /+3
Con: 15 /+2
Int: 13 /+1
Wis: 13 /+1
Cha: 16 /+3

Because of how I placed them Resilience Con and Wis would both give me a +1 stat bonus as well as the save proficiency, and I'd like to use the other 2 boost to bump Cha to 20. I'm not sure that Spell Sniper or War Caster can give similarly good bonuses.

As a Half-elf Lore Bard the guy is also a skill machine with 7 proficiencies at level 1 and 3 more at level 3 Bard. I'm even tempted to take the invocation which gives 2 more proficiencies so he has 12, but there are some other cool ones I'm considering.

I think one of the final factors in my decision though was that conceptually Lore Bard and Warlock fit together really well. Both are seekers of magical knowledge, but taking different approaches.