PIMP my Rogue/Warlock

[Costantine10]

We are playing an adventure in Ravenloft. We are a really large group. We have a open hand monk, life cleric, battle master fighter, wizard(trasmutation) valor bard, wild magic sorcerer. And me.
A archfey warlock/rogue, for now i'm really pround of my character, when not in battle i stealth, ambush, persuade, investigate, scout ecc ecc, i'm more effective than the bard for the skillmonkey role.
But i want to be more effective in battle. So now i'm level 6 and i can change something, feats, ability score and other things( we betatested and now we can start playing seriously).
So i'm here asking for advices, i love the fluff of my character, i love the outofcombat utility, but i want to be more effective in battle.
Maybe i'm going bladepact warlock( magic longbow) for 2 attacks and assassin. But i'm not really sure.


We have 2 tankish pc in the party the fighter( polearm master + sentinel) and the lifecleric( + spells), 1 agile melee combatant( monk), 1 all-in melee combatant( + spells and buff) the bard, 1 balter( sorcerer), 1 god spellcaster( wizard).
So probably i must fulfill the role of the ranged guy. Advices?

[SliceandDiceKid]

Blade pact warlock requires a melee weapon, I'm pretty sure.

I don't think rogue and warlock mesh too well in terms of fulfilling the ranged role. But if that's what you want to do, eldritch blast +agonizing blast can be the most devastating, especially when paired with the hex spell. But you didn't list what levels of warlock or rogue you took, or your current ability scores.

If you'll do that, it will be possible to assist you in altering/confirming your build.

[Costantine10]

Blade pact warlock requires a melee weapon, I'm pretty sure.

melee weapon or a magic weapon... the magic weapon can be a ranged weapon

[SliceandDiceKid]

"You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it"

Also it's called pact blade, not pact weapon.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Just because it later refers to the weapon as a magic weapon doesn't mean you can choose to make it a ranged weapon.

With high charisma, you won't need a bow anyway. Eldritch blast makes bow damage laughable a few levels from now.

[Costantine10]

"You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it"

Also it's called pact blade, not pact weapon.


" you can trasform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual..."

Magic weapon --- not melee magic weapon, so magic bow can be a pact weapon

[SliceandDiceKid]

" you can trasform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual..."

Magic weapon --- not melee magic weapon, so magic bow can be a pact weapon

Lol that is allowing you to make a magic melee weapon into your pact weapon. Not change the core concept of the feature. House rule for RP value, if you want. But you're just reading what you want.

[MustacheFart]

" you can trasform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual..."

Magic weapon --- not melee magic weapon, so magic bow can be a pact weapon

Agreed. RAW means technically any magic weapon could be made into a pact weapon. Want to really abuse it? Well it says the ritual takes 1 hour. A wizard/sorcerer can cast Magic Weapon and concentrate on it for 1 hour. Magic Weapon says that a non-magical weapon becomes a magical weapon with a +1 for the duration of the spell. Have either your sorcerer or wizard cast the spell on a normal bow, maintain it while you perform your ritual, and BOOM! pact weapon using the "magic weapon"!

The above strat could be applied to anything really. Like that castle's huge cannon? Go for it! Want to summon a catapult to launch the monk over the wall? You can do it! In another thread I mentioned doing it to a net. That way you could cast the net onto a bad guy and if they can't get out of it within 1 min they could be taken away to an extra dimensional space with it. The pact weapon feature says it returns to an extra dimensional space if apart from you for 1 min. So this would require that your DM rule the entangled creature would go with it. If you can keep them in the net for 1 min they totally should. I called this my Pokemon Master build in the terrible builds thread. Think about! Toss in the sleep spell for a "sleep powder" affect to make the creature aka pokemon easier to catch. Don't forget charm person when you call them back out. A master pokemon trainer needs to be able to control his new pokemon.

In any case, there's a huge hole in the pact weapon feature as I mentioned above that would allow you to theoretically summon ANY weapon. Sure, a logical DM will probably shoot it down but hey, nobody can provide a rule in the book that says it wouldn't work.


----

As to your actual character, I would go a totally different route than Blade pact. I would pick up Pack of the Chain and then get the Imp familiar. Sure, you could shoot for the long game and go Pact of the Tome for all the ritual goodness but magic seems to be pretty much covered in your group. With the Imp familiar you have an at-will invisible scout that can only aid you in all the out of combat sneaky stuff.

Also! Rogue sneak attack states that you can sneak attack if an enemy of your target is within 5' and is not unconscious. Nothing says they have to be visible! This means your Imp can shoot into range on any target you wish and then you can sneak attack away. While he uses up one of your actions to attack, he is completely free to move around without using your actions. Just don't have him attack but simply sit there. Much like that ghost/phantasm familiar, I believe it was a hexblade, could get in 3.5 He's basically a sneak attack guarantee.

As for feats, pick up Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter. Combo those with your imp, sneak attack, and Assassin's Assassinate for some potent damage.

[MustacheFart]

Lol that is allowing you to make a magic melee weapon into your pact weapon. Not change the core concept of the feature. House rule for RP value, if you want. But you're just reading what you want.

He's not wrong. RAW he is correct that it would apply to non-melee magic weapons. RAI is another matter.

[Costantine10]

Agreed. RAW means technically any magic weapon could be made into a pact weapon. Want to really abuse it? Well it says the ritual takes 1 hour. A wizard/sorcerer can cast Magic Weapon and concentrate on it for 1 hour. Magic Weapon says that a non-magical weapon becomes a magical weapon with a +1 for the duration of the spell. Have either your sorcerer or wizard cast the spell on a normal bow, maintain it while you perform your ritual, and BOOM! pact weapon using the "magic weapon"!

The above strat could be applied to anything really. Like that castle's huge cannon? Go for it! Want to summon a catapult to launch the monk over the wall? You can do it! In another thread I mentioned doing it to a net. That way you could cast the net onto a bad guy and if they can't get out of it within 1 min they could be taken away to an extra dimensional space with it. The pact weapon feature says it returns to an extra dimensional space if apart from you for 1 min. So this would require that your DM rule the entangled creature would go with it. If you can keep them in the net for 1 min they totally should. I called this my Pokemon Master build in the terrible builds thread. Think about! Toss in the sleep spell for a "sleep powder" affect to make the creature aka pokemon easier to catch. Don't forget charm person when you call them back out. A master pokemon trainer needs to be able to control his new pokemon.

In any case, there's a huge hole in the pact weapon feature as I mentioned above that would allow you to theoretically summon ANY weapon. Sure, a logical DM will probably shoot it down but hey, nobody can provide a rule in the book that says it wouldn't work.


----

As to your actual character, I would go a totally different route than Blade pact. I would pick up Pack of the Chain and then get the Imp familiar. Sure, you could shoot for the long game and go Pact of the Tome for all the ritual goodness but magic seems to be pretty much covered in your group. With the Imp familiar you have an at-will invisible scout that can only aid you in all the out of combat sneaky stuff.

Also! Rogue sneak attack states that you can sneak attack if an enemy of your target is within 5' and is not unconscious. Nothing says they have to be visible! This means your Imp can shoot into range on any target you wish and then you can sneak attack away. While he uses up one of your actions to attack, he is completely free to move around without using your actions. Just don't have him attack but simply sit there. Much like that ghost/phantasm familiar, I believe it was a hexblade, could get in 3.5 He's basically a sneak attack guarantee.

As for feats, pick up Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter. Combo those with your imp, sneak attack, and Assassin's Assassinate for some potent damage.



Oh cool.. so a warlock 3/rogue 17? But i think i'll go for the sprite familiar cuz he is more fey-fluff for my background.

Invocation: devil's sight and one with shadow.

[Yagyujubei]

Lol that is allowing you to make a magic melee weapon into your pact weapon. Not change the core concept of the feature. House rule for RP value, if you want. But you're just reading what you want.

no. Strictly RAW, once you get a magical longbow you can make that into your pact weapon. whether or not that's how it was intended, it wouldn't be a stretch at all for players to argue this point to the DM and be a bow wielding bladepact lock.

[MustacheFart]

Oh cool.. so a warlock 3/rogue 17? But i think i'll go for the sprite familiar cuz he is more fey-fluff for my background.

Invocation: devil's sight and one with shadow.

If you're going to go all the way to rogue 17 and believe you have a good shot at getting there then I would go Thief over Assassin. You lose the auto-crit but you gain some good stuff fit the character and the level 17 capstone feature is marvelous. Otherwise, I would possibly drop a few levels of Assassin Rogue for maybe some levels elsewhere such as warlock (or fighter for action surge plus ranged combat style).

[SliceandDiceKid]

Don't forget to grab the thirsting BLADE invocation

[Yagyujubei]

Don't forget to grab the thirsting BLADE invocation

an arrowhead is a blade dont worry about it.

[SliceandDiceKid]

an arrowhead is a blade dont worry about it.

It can be. However, I think you missed the point.

That felt good...

[Costantine10]

If you're going to go all the way to rogue 17 and believe you have a good shot at getting there then I would go Thief over Assassin. You lose the auto-crit but you gain some good stuff fit the character and the level 17 capstone feature is marvelous. Otherwise, I would possibly drop a few levels of Assassin Rogue for maybe some levels elsewhere such as warlock (or fighter for action surge plus ranged combat style).



I think we never finish at 20th level.

I think assassin is better cuz you have advantage on your first attack and with only one attacck is really usefull.
Maybe 1 level in fighter is good, for heavy crossbow, archery style and action surge. Crossbow expertise + sharpshooter and i can be a sniper, darkness spell + devil's sight + one with shadow and i'm invisible. Now i have to think better, for now i'm a rogue 3 assassin/ archfey warlcok chain pact 3, with an imp for familiar. STR 8, DEX 16, CON 14, WIS 10, INT 14, CHA 14. Half elf.
Next level rogue 4 and crossbow expertise, next level warlock 4 and sharpshooter... and next?

[Yagyujubei]

It can be. However, I think you missed the point.

That felt good...

I'm sure I didnt, you capitalized BLADE to imply that the wording of the invocation is evidence that bladepact should only work with bladed weapons, to which I replied that arrowheads are technically blades, thus debunking your comment. so in fact I think you missed the point.

further, by the logic of your post a bladepact warlock cant choose a club or a warhammer as their pact weapon? they aren't BLADEs after all are they?

[SliceandDiceKid]

I'm sure I didnt, you capitalized BLADE to imply that the wording of the invocation is evidence that bladepact should only work with bladed weapons, to which I replied that arrowheads are technically blades, thus debunking your comment. so in fact I think you missed the point.

further, by the logic of your post a bladepact warlock cant choose a club or a warhammer as their pact weapon? they aren't BLADEs after all are they?

To the first, the arrow wouldn't be your pact weapon. I'll allow you the final remark on that topic, if you'd like.

To the second, many clubs throughout human history have, in fact, featured debris with sharpened edges. But I'm done here.

[Yagyujubei]

To the first, the arrow wouldn't be your pact weapon. I'll allow you the final remark on that topic, if you'd like.

To the second, many clubs throughout human history have, in fact, featured debris with sharpened edges. But I'm done here.

indeed, then make the arrows your pact weapons. there's no reason an arrow couldn't be a melee weapon, and it's bladed, so you can just summon pact arrows and fire them from a mundane bow just like you could summon a dagger and throw it. sure the arrows would disappear after a time but the damage has already been done.

and as for your second comment, true, but many clubs didn't. Can a pact lock not use those? or the previously mentioned hammers? or a staff? or a whip?

[MustacheFart]

To the first, the arrow wouldn't be your pact weapon. I'll allow you the final remark on that topic, if you'd like.

To the second, many clubs throughout human history have, in fact, featured debris with sharpened edges. But I'm done here.

I think what you're missing man is that just as easy as you can apply your focus on the word "blade" to clubs and the like, he can take the word "blade" metaphorically to mean any weapon. It wouldn't be the first time that blade has been used to represent a weapon and not specifically melee ones.


To the OP, I would suggest NOT using the heavy crossbow. Instead pick up Hand cross bows. Yes, they do a little less damage but the rogue is already proficient with them and with Crossbow Sniper that means you can fire a second one as part of a bonus action. This means that instead of being limited to 1 attack per round you have at least 2 attacks now. This is important for ensuring you land that sneak attack.

If you wanted to squeeze in 5 levels of fighter or one of the other Extra Attack granting classes then you could probably switch back to the Heavy Crossbow though the extra bonus attack from using hand crossbows with Crossbow Expert would still stack with any Extra Attack thus making it still the better option. Don't forget that Sharpshooter lets you attack at max range with no penalty. The max range of a hand crossbow is still plenty long enough.

EDIT: Tossing in Skulker probably wouldn't be a bad idea for the build. It means that when you're sneaking around if you miss your attack they don't automatically see you. Therefore, you could take another round of surprise to pop a shot off.

[Person_Man]

If you want to be the "ranged guy" then it seems like maybe Warlock 2/Sorcerer 18 would be the way to go instead. That way you could spam Eldritch Blast for 1d10 + Cha + 10 ft push (up to four times, depending on your character level) and then when you really need it use an area of effect spell + Metamagic to blow up lots of enemies at once.

Rogue is much more of a single kill per round sniper class. If you wanted to go that way instead, you might want to go Fighter 5/Rogue 15, which would give you martial weapons, +2 to hit from Archery Fighting Style, Action Surge, a couple Battlemaster maneuvers, a Feat (presumably Sharpshooter), and Extra Attack, then you get your Sneak Attack, Assassinate, Evasion, and Uncanny Dodge. First round damage with Action Surge, Sneak Attack, Assassinate, Superiority Dice (which are doubled on a critical hit), and Sharpshooter would be ridiculous. I know that you already have another Battlemaster Fighter, but there's no reason you couldn't both start that way and then focus on different things. They actually complement each other fairly well.

[Yagyujubei]

thinking about it more the "rules" for what form your blade can take are incredibly vague. I wonder how far you could stretch that to give yourself an edge...

My blade is invisible, so I should get advantage on my first attack against each opponent if not every attack.

I summon a blade of malleable living acid that obeys my mental commands. it can corrode solid material and form change to suit different situations.

I summon a blade made entirely of bright light that illuminates the area around me, or a blade of deepest black that absorbs light.

I summon a segmented chain blade that can be released into a whip of razor sharp steel

the possibilities are endless assuming your DM doesnt call instant shenanigans