"Reasonable" Wishes

[Dalebert]

I believe PF is quite different from 3.5. For one thing, there's no xp cost. It's all costly component based. I think 3.5 might allow you to just wish for magic items up to a certain value. Not sure about Pathfinder.

So aside from the guidelines given, what IS a reasonable wish? I don't think there's a RAW answer. I'm curious of your opinions.

For instance...

Can you wish for magic items? How valuable? A scroll of a spell (so you could learn it)? How high a level? Can you just wish to know a certain spell or have it appear in your spellbook? What about Limited Wish?

Can you wish to change your race? If so, would it be an instant change or a permanent effect (dispellable)?

I encourage others to ask as well. What do you think your character might wish for if they get the opportunity?

[Segev]

The PFSRD provides the answer, if you're talking about PF's Wish. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wish) No, you can't make magic items with it safely. Anything not in that list is "dangerous."

I don't know if that counts as "reasonable" or not to you; my assumption (unless you tell me otherwise) is that what the PFSRD calls "dangerous" is synonymous with what you would call "unreasonable."

[Dalebert]

Anything not in that list is "dangerous."

It doesn't actually say anything not on the list is dangerous. It says trying to "produce greater effects than these" is dangerous. That still leaves some ambiguity.

Let's take one of my examples. If I were trying to make the case for changing a character's race, I would point out that it states Wish is capable of a full resurrection. It's clearly capable of reincarnate (4th lvl) which creates a fresh body, most likely of a different race, and then retrieves your soul from beyond and puts it into that body. Does it therefore seem reasonable to essentially create a new body (radically transform yours) without even having to retrieve a soul from the outer planes? On the other hand, it's better than reincarnate in the sense that it's not random--you're picking the race, but it is a wish, after all, along with Miracle, the most powerful spell in the game.

[BWR]

Considering it has a gp cost, and barring stuff like Blood Money, I would probably allow Wish to create magic items up to 4000 gp without much trouble. Possibly up to 5000gp. If all the spell is doing is converting money to item, it's not a big deal, especially if you have crafters and magicmarts easily available - it just saves a bit of time. If you end up paying more for less, all the better. The defition of 'reasonable' will always be hard to pin down. If you interpret 'reaosnable' as 'allowed by some questionable readings of RAW' you will get very different results than 'doesn't mess up my low-powered campaign'.
Wish being the game changer it is, I think the most important question is: 'will this single Wish mess up my campaign?', followed by 'will this mess up my campaign if they do it regularly?'
Most players are sensible creatures and will toe the line if you give them some guidelines or just say ' you can do it now, but not too often'.

Edit: brain fart. PF Wish needs 25000 gp of diamonds, not 5000 gp. I'd probably allow it to make items up to 20000 gp in value without much complaint. Case by case judgement on power level of item up to 25000 gp.

[Dalebert]

Most players are sensible creatures and will tow the line if you give them some guidelines or just say ' you can do it now, but not too often'.

We need Wish police kind of like paradox in the Mage game.

[Segev]

Changing a character's race would be replicating Polymorph Any Object, but making it Instantaneous. I'd say that's within the power of it as long as the race was not a significant power boost to the target. As you're also referencing Reincarnation as a guideline, using that spell's race list would probably clinch it. But yes, it's a bit of a judgment call.

When I had a PC wish "to be prettier than her sisters," I mechanically had that give her +1 Cha and fluff-wise literally make her more beautiful. So I may be a lenient DM; my take on it is that a wish should first see if it can be reasonably done by something similar to the mechanics of the "safe" wishes. Only twist it when it can't, and then generally to make it fit there if possible. The real devious twists only occur if they've angered the wish-granting entity (so usually not an issue if they are casting the spell, themselves) or the wish itself has natural unforeseen consequences without need for twisting. If they're really going beyond the pale, maybe I'd twist it to the point of cruelty, but it would take a lot. (That said, if making it fit into the list of "safe" wishes causes some unforeseen consequences... not likely, though, unless there's no better way to do it.)

[Pex]

As long as the player is not using Wish to Win D&D the DM should not have the player Lose D&D for using Wish.

An "uber"powerful effect that's not permanent should be alright, Wishing for the effect to last 1 round per caster level. For example, a player might Wish everyone in the party has the use of a particular feat including all prerequisites for 1 round per caster level. Teamwork feats are a good candidate. Other ideas:

30 resistance for all energy types

A Natural 1 is never an automiss/autofail for any roll.

Weapon damage is always maxed.

All critical threats confirm.

Immunity to some condition or energy drain, ability drain etc.

In a combat situation the player is using up a resource, either an item charge or a 9th level spell slot including a 25,000 gp gem. He has leeway.

[Psyren]

If the player wishes for something crazy you can always just tone it down via the "partial fulfillment" clause. You don't have to screw them.

[grarrrg]

You don't have to screw them.

But, but, but...they're asking for it!

[Snowbluff]

There is actually a trait that messes with the loopholes a trait may have.

[Dalebert]

You don't have to screw them.

I understand the temptation though, even with a "reasonable" wish. There are just so many stories that incorporate entities that screw with people making wishes. Genies are obvious examples and the X-Files episode is a recent one that comes to mind. The whole idea of having what you want just handed to you for free just seems like a core principle to examine in stories. It's the whole TANSTAAFL principle.

I also understand why there's some inherent leniency that seems to come with it when you cast it yourself-- "You spent years adventuring and training yourself up to be an arch mage and now you're shelling out 25k gp. You didn't just happen upon an Efreet ring. You earned it."

[Snowbluff]

It's called Thoughtful Wish-Maker.

[Psyren]

I also understand why there's some inherent leniency that seems to come with it when you cast it yourself-- "You spent years adventuring and training yourself up to be an arch mage and now you're shelling out 25k gp. You didn't just happen upon an Efreet ring. You earned it."

I actually take the opposite viewpoint - if I gave you a wish it's because I want you to use one. Think about it, how are the PCs going to come across an Efreet ring if I don't put one in the dragon's hoard, the dusty shop with the queer smells, or on the lich's fingerbone? And if I make it totally useless, you'll just sell, sunder or ignore the next one you find.

If you simply take Wish yourself though, chances are you'll run through the safe uses over time and eventually start wishing for things like castles or kingdoms.

[Dalebert]

If you simply take Wish yourself though, chances are you'll run through the safe uses over time and eventually start wishing for things like castles or kingdoms.

A bigger wiener... That's what my friend said he would wish for anyway. I sure don't need to! *ahem*

[Psyren]

A bigger wiener... That's what my friend said he would wish for anyway. I sure don't need to! *ahem*

Enjoy your 25000gp jumbo hotdog :smallbiggrin:

[Extra Anchovies]

Enjoy your 25000gp jumbo hotdog :smallbiggrin:

Hm. How big would that be? According to PHB, a chunk of meat costs 3 sp. We'll assume that's about... eight ounces, maybe? Which means our 25,000 gp jumbo hot dog will weigh over 41,500 pounds.

Yup, that's jumbo alright.

[Psyren]

Nah, you'd just get a garden-variety 7-Eleven "jumbo hotdog" that merely cost you 25k.

[BWR]

Hm. How big would that be? According to PHB, a chunk of meat costs 3 sp. We'll assume that's about... eight ounces, maybe? Which means our 25,000 gp jumbo hot dog will weigh over 41,500 pounds.

Yup, that's jumbo alright.

A sausage probably costs a bit more than just a chunk of meat. Add in that it could be made from exotic meats and rare spices, and it could be quite a bit smaller than that.

On the subject of Wishes and penises, a friend of mine and his group found a magic ring at one point. They didn't have the means to identify it, so they decided to identify it through trial and error. So they started throwing themselves into small ravines (it wasn't a Ring of Feather Fall), attacking eachother (not a Ring of Protection) and similar things. It being late at night, the players were tired and not thinking quite clearly, and of them, as a joke, said 'I put on the ring and say "I wish I was invisible, I wish I had a 2 meter schlong". '
They correctly identified it as a Ring of Two Wishes.

Similarly, early on in our gaming career, our party got a ring and the wizard wasted all three wishes wishing for food.

[Zubrowka74]

Speaking of Wishes... (http://xkcd.com/1086/)

[Psyren]

Speaking of Wishes... (http://xkcd.com/1086/)

Also this: http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2740
And this: http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3279

[Segev]

Nah, you'd just get a garden-variety 7-Eleven "jumbo hotdog" that merely cost you 25k.

No, the garden-variety ones are made by elves, and are vegetarian.

[Psyren]

No, the garden-variety ones are made by elves, and are vegetarian.

What you did there, I see it :smallbiggrin: