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its_all_ogre
2007-03-13, 12:17 PM
ok strange request here.
how do you stop railroading players that are perfectly happy playing dnd like a hansel and greta style fairytale.

my players frequently approach things from the 'well obviously we need to do 'x' because its been placed here for that reason'

very little roleplay too, but that is less of a concern.

there is no thinking outside the box and i'm getting bored of it personally. i am finding that i HAVE to railroad them cause leaving them to make decisions takes for ages(seriously ambushing 3 goblins took 45 mins of planning at one stage.....they were level 5!)

Fixer
2007-03-13, 12:18 PM
Two words:

Red Herrings

(I use them to great effect with my players and they work wonderfully.)

clarkvalentine
2007-03-13, 12:25 PM
Maybe that's how they want to play.

Talk with them. Present some options, see what sort of game they're really looking for. Some people like a very linear, Hansel-and-Gretel sort of game (I like that description :D )

JaronK
2007-03-13, 12:35 PM
Give them honest choices without indicating one way or another. Start simple... they can take the fast road, but it's infested with bandits, or the slower road through the mountains, but that'll take more survival abilities.

Later you can get to big decisions.

JaronK

iceman
2007-03-13, 12:38 PM
Instead of railroading them to fit into your plot, instead allow them to make their decisions. It is now however up to you to come up with the consequences of their actions and decisions. If they take too long to come to a decision about ambushing three goblins have twenty more show up because they waited too long. Or if they make a poor decision about something then bad things are bound to happen.

Suvarov454
2007-03-13, 12:47 PM
I'm more concerned with knowing if you are having fun! Being a DM is a lot of work, and if you're getting bored because of your players' style, then you need to figure out how to spruce things up. I agree with clarkevalintine that you shouldn't try to force your players into acting in a way they don't want, but I also agree with JaronK and iceman that you should identify logical consequences of the actions they do take.

One final note, if your players seem to like being led through the adventure, you may want to save yourself the time and effort of writing your own adventures and start using modules from Living Greyhawk. :smallbiggrin:

Shrew
2007-03-13, 01:03 PM
I have noticed that most people who play DND are more into creating character concepts than creating a story with their characters. At times it feels like a video game mind set of "I go here kill this monster, and get stuff". The only solution I have used is to reward experience points, and items for creativity, and thinking outside the box. Problem I run into as a DM is my puzzles are easy for me to understand, but not always easy for the players to figure out.

kamikasei
2007-03-13, 01:08 PM
If your players would actually enjoy a game where they have to work out what to do next and it's not blatantly signposted for them...

Talk to them. Tell them that, in fact, the plot isn't intended to be blatantly signposted and that there will be, at any given point, more than one thing thing they can try that will get them somewhere. Explain that there will be many things that will not have any relevance to other things, so that if they're looking for the villain and the shopkeeper happens to mention that there's a dragon in the mountain, the dragon won't necessarily secretly be guarding the key to the ruins where the villain is hiding.

Back up your words by DMing in such a way that players really won't be able to pick out the one obvious route they're meant to take, and will instead have to think about their goals and investigate what will help them achieve them. See Rich's "flavor" article on the Gaming section of the site for more info.

Justin_Bacon
2007-03-13, 01:11 PM
there is no thinking outside the box and i'm getting bored of it personally. i am finding that i HAVE to railroad them cause leaving them to make decisions takes for ages(seriously ambushing 3 goblins took 45 mins of planning at one stage.....they were level 5!)

Were they having fun planning the ambush? Then I wouldn't worry about it.

Basically, the only real solution is to talk to them about it. One of the worst gaming experiences of my entire life was when I attempted to bring my sandbox-style of GMing to a group that was conditioned to railroaded adventures.

Ultimately, it may not work. Your styles of gaming may simply be incompatible. With the group I had (for a blessedly short time), they just kept looking at me and waiting for me to tell them what to do. Even talking to them about the fact that the game world was wide open and all they had to do was bite at something or choose a direction and the action would flow from there did no good. They were constantly grinding to a halt and waiting for a DMPC to appear and guide them to the next plot point (which is apparently how their previous DM had run things).

Dausuul
2007-03-13, 01:24 PM
Were they having fun planning the ambush? Then I wouldn't worry about it.

QFT. A lot of the time, when I want to take a load off and take a break as DM, I hand my PCs a tricky situation with no pre-planned solution. "Well, here you are. The necromancer's castle is over there. You gotta figure a way to bust into it without getting your souls eaten. Let me know what you come up with." Then I lean back and let them argue and plot and scheme, while I have some pizza and think about where things are going to go next. Depending on how much time we have and how much the players enjoy strategizing, they can spend an hour or more planning their next move.

If they come up with a clever idea, and they usually do, it works and I let them run with it. If not, I have a backup plan in mind to avoid a TPK. ("Okay, you got caught and now you're in the dungeon. The necromancer is going to come eat your souls in three days. There's a skeleton in the cell next door and a crotchety old man who brings you food. You've got three days to come up with a way out.")

As long as you have a group that enjoys that, it's cool. Some groups don't. If that's the case, you can either gently guide them toward a compromise style--every so often you present them with choices that don't have a pre-selected right answer, but where there are still just a couple of clearly defined options--or ask someone else to take over DMing for a while.

Diggorian
2007-03-13, 01:34 PM
ok strange request here.
how do you stop railroading players that are perfectly happy playing dnd like a hansel and greta style fairytale.

my players frequently approach things from the 'well obviously we need to do 'x' because its been placed here for that reason'

I run alot like how Dausuul describes which is great cause the players entertain themselves and you can stretch a little work longer. This highlights a great advantage of improvisation in DMing. If they start to take too long I usually narrate some fluff that shows time is passing in game.

I'd advise writing the adventure such that the most obvious choice X for scenario 1 has been prepared for because it's so obvious. Think of the easiest way you'd tackle an encounter and write obstacles to that strategy or twists that complicate it. This way you get entertained by nothing but out-of-the-box tactics.

3 goblin sentries can be ambushed a bunch of ways. Unless, two hide up trees as archers and one in the underbrush has a great Balance modifier and the Run feat to summon reinforcements/raise the alarm. PC's must deal with inaccessible archers and catch the runner weaving between cover.

Plus, tighten up your pacing. Players get five real time seconds to declare their action, but pause the countdown to answer questions their five senses can answer (remember Spot and Listens are move actions during combat).

Does this help?

PnP Fan
2007-03-13, 01:43 PM
Easy, don't railroad them. That's how you stop. If it takes forever for them to make decisions/plan, then give them a little verbal pressure. Dont' be a jerk, just say things like, "okay, what's the plan?" or "what are you going to do?". I would avoid adding more goblins/whatever when they take to long to make decisions. You'll be reinforcing their overly cautious behaviour. ("Whew! Good thing we waited to plan, otherwise more goblins/orcs/whatever would have ambushed us!). If things get really bad, point out how long they've spent accomplishing nothing and encourage them to take action. I would avoid things that truly shake them up for a while, if they are all planners. You might reinforce their behavior.

JadedDM
2007-03-13, 06:51 PM
My own players are like that. They like to be railroaded, I think. Whenever I give them choices, they tend to get overwhelmed. They are so afraid of making the 'wrong' choice, they tend to idle and not make a decision at all. Twice I've tried to set up a completely non-linear campaign, and both times it failed horribly, because the party would never do anything and the game would become terribly boring.


I haven't really figured out how to get around this. Just go with it, for now. At least it's less work for you. Try and give them small choices throughout the game, to get them used to the idea. Maybe, with time, they'll start to branch out a bit.

The Valiant Turtle
2007-03-13, 08:14 PM
It sounds like a good sit down and chat with the players is definitely in order. Explain to them that this isn't a videogame. You are telling a story together and you want their help. Then start telling them about the world and about what is going on in it. Tie some of it into their character backgrounds (If they haven't made backgrounds make small bits of background up for them). They may be assuming that you have a plot that you want them to follow, we've seen plenty of stories of DM's who got upset that the PC's "ruined the plot." They may just need permission to do all that they can to ruin your plot, you might even challenge them to do so!

It takes a while to adjust to a more open game, but once they learn to trust that there truly is adventure over every horizon they will probably have a lot more fun.

its_all_ogre
2007-03-14, 03:53 AM
thanks to all for feedback.
thinking of quitting for a few weeks to start writing up new stuff, we'll see!

valadil
2007-03-14, 11:53 AM
I think you should discourage them from being railroaded by railroading them into making a decision. You're giving them all the time in the world to come up with something. Take the time away, and make them improvise something on the spot, but have the session prepared in such a way that their decision is pivotal. Just make them make a decision and move on.

One problem I've seen with a lot of GMs who want an open ended game is that the idea of open ended means you pick one of two paths, and eventually those paths will splits too. That isn't open ended - it's just as scripted as a standard railroad game. Your players may have confused your game with one of those choose your own adventure stories. They expect to go along the neat little path until they come to a fork in the road. It sounds like you already do this, but try to avoid enumerating all their options for them. Make sure they're the ones coming up with the options. Putting them in a situation where they do this with a timer (for instance in the ambush, I don't know what the setup was, but if you had them spy the goblins coming down the road via spyglass, and they knew the goblins would be there in five minutes your players would have just as much choice in what to do, but they'd have to react a lot more quickly and not use so much game time).

CASTLEMIKE
2007-03-16, 08:49 PM
You are the director and storyteller.

Little things:

Out of the blue occassionally ask or confirm the group lineup like you do for combat and surprise encounters.

Roll some dice occassionally just for fun :) and watch their reactions

Let them do off the wall time consuming things (gets boring after a while) and occassionally roll wandering monsters or adventure/campaign theme encounters from BBEGs

Tax collectors are nice

Consider having a Soul Locked party antagoinst +0 Template Herroes of Horror Monster Dies and they gain experience but the monster keeps coming back without level lost like the resurrection of a ghost until specifically killed.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-16, 08:56 PM
I keep a d20 ready for sprucing things up. When the players make a decision that I can imagine being good or bad, I roll it. 10 or less, something bad happens to them. 11 or better, something good (or nothing at all) happens to them. You could do it with a coin just as easily. Bonus points for painting half of your face.

Kiero
2007-03-17, 06:00 AM
Maybe that's how they want to play.

Talk with them. Present some options, see what sort of game they're really looking for. Some people like a very linear, Hansel-and-Gretel sort of game (I like that description :D )

Bingo! And only the third post in. If that's what they enjoy, what's the problem?

Course if the issue is as the GM you're not enjoying it, then we have a different problem.