Immortality as an Oracle's Curse?

[JonathonWilder]

I'm considering an Oracle character, more particularly a human Ancient Lorekeeper following the Lore mystery path, and I would like to find a way of making the character effectively ageless and if possible have it be an Oracle's curse.

The question is how to make immortality mechanically disadvantageous, a penalty that the character must overcome?
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People have gone back and forth in debating whether immortality is a curse or a blessing but the examples cited for such are normally social and emotional in nature. Outliving family, friends, loved ones, exc and not physical in nature.

An important note: In this case, when I speak of immortality I speak of someone that does not or cannot age and cannot die of old age. They can still be harmed or kill as normal, and have no immunities except for perhaps immunity to magical aging. Th idea of any sort of resistances may also be tossed,at least at first, so as to better be able to created a disadvantageous effect.

One idea I have as part if the curse could be that the character cannot kill themselves nor purposefully or willingly put themselves into harm's way even to save another.
Though really that isn't a strong disadvantage and may be more an annoyance then anything else.

Another idea perhaps is for the character to be 'Eternally Hunted' by one or more Outsiders of opposed alignment, cursed to run away and never be able to seek death.

[Larkas]

Do you want a simple, mechanical way? Just give them all the cumulative penalties and bonuses linked to age. Such a character would be immortal, but not eternally youthful.

[aleucard]

Immortality is one of those things that is a Roleplaying Curse rather than a Mechanical Curse. Unless if the method used to grant Immortality has side effects (or the condition itself is a side effect), I can think of no way to make immunity to aging a mechanically bad thing. Chucking the poor sod into isolation and letting him/her/it percolate for a few centuries might work, but then it's not the Immortality doing the real leg-work in that scenario, it just accelerates it.

EDIT: Larkas, there's several types of character that would call that at least a fair trade, and the penalties aren't really THAT much. Going for a Green Mile approach is interesting, but it doesn't really feel like that much of a drawback unless if you're expected to actually fight in a non-mental way in that condition (and just casting don't cut it, and nor does Shapechanging).

[Zaq]

Maybe give him a penalty to skill points. As an ageless creature, it's very hard for him to learn new things and master new tricks the way other people do. In order to preserve its own sanity, his brain has simply adapted to be less flexible than that of mortal creatures. He's very, very stuck in the old ways, and he just can't learn new things very easily.

[Larkas]

EDIT: Larkas, there's several types of character that would call that at least a fair trade, and the penalties aren't really THAT much. Going for a Green Mile approach is interesting, but it doesn't really feel like that much of a drawback unless if you're expected to actually fight in a non-mental way in that condition (and just casting don't cut it, and nor does Shapechanging).

Agreed. However, +3 Cha for -6 Con (the most directly relevant attributes in this case) isn't exactly a trivial choice. Besides, -6 Str can be really annoying if you're using encumbrance rules.

[Jack_Simth]

Agelessness, of itself, really shouldn't cost you much, if anything. Most games do not last long enough for the ageing tables to matter. Seriously, when was the last time a character changed age categories by something other than some form of magical curse? So by and large, being ageless (of itself) has no mechanical impact on the game.

As to how to make a disadvantage of it... maybe something related to having too much in the way of experiences for a mortal mind? Maybe... pick one specific class of humanoid (required backstory element: you spent a LOT of time amongst such peoples), and every time you encounter one, you must make a will save (DC ... oh, 15-ish?) to avoid being Dazed for 1d4 rounds because they look so incredibly similar to someone you've previously met that you're overwhelmed with memories of that person.

As to bonuses... at 5th, 10th, 15th... add Identify, Ancestral Memory (Refluffed as YOU have run across it before, not one of your ancestors), and Vision (likewise) respectively to your list of spells known.

[Red Fel]

Hmm... Can't age, and can't die of old age? I've got a few options.

Option 1: The character does not age because the body rejuvenates itself daily. As a result, however, improvements to the body require more effort to take effect. Skills that key off of the physical attributes (Str, Con, and Dex) require double the skill points to improve. Further, there is a cap on the maximum increases that can be applied to the physical attributes (e.g. he can receive no more than +3 to any physical ability score, combined from all sources).

Option 2: The character does not physically age, but the mind has become addled by years of life. Take a -2 penalty to all Wis checks and Wis-based skill checks. (This penalty does not apply to Will saves.) Further, if the character must make an Int check or Int-based skill check while under duress (e.g. any circumstance that prevents one from taking 10 on a roll), he must make a Will save or else become dazed for 1 round, as his mind reels trying to sort through several lifetimes' worth of information to find the needed knowledge.

Option 3: The character's continued life beyond his appointed lifespan is an abomination against the natural order. Treat him as an Aberration instead of his usual type whenever it would be detrimental to him (e.g. when confronted with a Favored Enemy-type ability). Additionally, his unnatural life causes life itself to reject him. Treat him as an Undead instead of his usual type whenever it would be detrimental to him (e.g. when faced with spells like Detect Undead or abilities like Smite Evil). He does not receive any advantages of these types, and his actual type does not change. Should a circumstance arise that would require him to be treated as both Aberration and Undead, choose whichever one would be most detrimental, at DM's discretion.

[atemu1234]

If he's truly immortal (no aging and no dying) then it'd be great for a player. But have the character be your best roleplayer and have him be thousands of years old, you've got a recipe for a highly angsty character. I'd make him a martyr whose only goal is to wind up dead, and he has searched for millenia to find out how, but even now he still can't.

Hope you start at high levels.

[aleucard]

Total immortality kinda throws balance out the window. How about rather than just simply not being killable it's impossible to make it stick? In effect, after a given amount of time depending on how total his death was, he respawns either where his body lays or (if it's destroyed) nearby his party members and dazed for about a minute. That makes sure that the only way to deal with him isn't just to push him through a Gate to a black hole or something, while still maintaining total immortality if it's really that important.

[Jack_Simth]

Total immortality kinda throws balance out the window. How about rather than just simply not being killable it's impossible to make it stick? In effect, after a given amount of time depending on how total his death was, he respawns either where his body lays or (if it's destroyed) nearby his party members and dazed for about a minute. That makes sure that the only way to deal with him isn't just to push him through a Gate to a black hole or something, while still maintaining total immortality if it's really that important.

If he's truly immortal (no aging and no dying) then it'd be great for a player. But have the character be your best roleplayer and have him be thousands of years old, you've got a recipe for a highly angsty character. I'd make him a martyr whose only goal is to wind up dead, and he has searched for millenia to find out how, but even now he still can't.

Hope you start at high levels.
Per the original poster, in the original post:

An important note: In this case, when I speak of immortality I speak of someone that does not or cannot age and cannot die of old age. They can still be harmed or kill as normal, and have no immunities except for perhaps immunity to magical aging.

[aleucard]

Per the original poster, in the original post:

I knew that much, I was just commenting on the variant proposed by the second guy you quoted. I just simply feel that it's too easy to make a mechanical downside feel shoehorned for something like this, though there's been some good ideas posted already. I'd in general prefer something of this nature being purely a Roleplaying aspect rather than having to actively interact with game mechanics as doing it this way would enforce.

[jjcrpntr]

If he's truly immortal (no aging and no dying) then it'd be great for a player. But have the character be your best roleplayer and have him be thousands of years old, you've got a recipe for a highly angsty character. I'd make him a martyr whose only goal is to wind up dead, and he has searched for millenia to find out how, but even now he still can't.

Hope you start at high levels.

If it's a great roleplayer have the player play the character as you said but that he really wants to die as he's seen all his friends/loved ones grow old and die over the centuries. So he's constantly doing stupid stuff in combat because he has no regard for his own safety.

[JonathonWilder]

Agelessness, of itself, really shouldn't cost you much, if anything. Most games do not last long enough for the ageing tables to matter. Seriously, when was the last time a character changed age categories by something other than some form of magical curse? So by and large, being ageless (of itself) has no mechanical impact on the game.

As to how to make a disadvantage of it... maybe something related to having too much in the way of experiences for a mortal mind? Maybe... pick one specific class of humanoid (required backstory element: you spent a LOT of time amongst such peoples), and every time you encounter one, you must make a will save (DC ... oh, 15-ish?) to avoid being Dazed for 1d4 rounds because they look so incredibly similar to someone you've previously met that you're overwhelmed with memories of that person.

As to bonuses... at 5th, 10th, 15th... add Identify, Ancestral Memory (Refluffed as YOU have run across it before, not one of your ancestors), and Vision (likewise) respectively to your list of spells known.
My thoughts exactually on the first part, if kept only to the effects of the aging table to not aging and dying of old age, such effects are unlikely to come about during the course of a normal campaign.

Onto your suggestions, they are probably among the most helpful in considering Immortality/Ageless as an Oracle's Curse. Though I might suggest a distraction penalty to wisdom checks, perception checks and/or initiative checks over Dazed as people, conversations, or events taking place remind the character of his past. Though not will saves.


Hmm... Can't age, and can't die of old age? I've got a few options.

Option 1: -snip-
Option 2: -snip-
Option 3: -snip-

First for all of these remember that while Oracle's Curse offers disadvantages, as an Oracle goes up in level advantages are also gained.

The first two options could work, individually, no I would ask what benefits the Oracle word games they go up and level.

The third often is not as much to my liking, especially since oracles are chosen to be a deity's servant and being treat as an aberration or undead could raise some questions if the deity is opposed to these two things.



Per the original poster, in the original post:
Thank you fo pointing this out.
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Also,...I would personally like the acquiring of skills to be left alone, especially if the player who picks this Oracle's Curse starts the character at a higher age then the norm of their race because for all intents and purposes they are already 'behind'. Sure on can make a case fo physical based skills but a penalty to all skills gained I would say is too great a cost.

Remember this needs to line up with other Oracle's Curses.

[grarrrg]

especially since oracles are chosen to be a deity's servant and being treat as an aberration or undead could raise some questions if the deity is opposed to these two things.

Oracles are explicitly NOT tied to a specific deity.
"Unlike a cleric, who draws her magic through devotion to a deity, oracles garner strength and power from many sources, namely those patron deities who support their ideals. Instead of worshiping a single source, oracles tend to venerate all of the gods that share their beliefs."
Even if they choose to favor one specific deity, that deity's opinion matters little in the Oracle still receiving their powers.

There is also nothing preventing any given Oracle from taking/getting any given Curse.
You could have a Chaotic Oracle with the Legalistic Curse.
Or a Life Oracle with the Consumed Curse.

Heck, some would even say that it is MORE fitting if the Curse goes against the Mystery/deity/whatever of a character.
That's why it's called a "curse", instead of a "happy fun time".


Remember this needs to line up with other Oracle's Curses.

The other Oracle Curses vary pretty wildly in terms of power/impact.
Tongues is a common choice because it's basically a low-impact "do nothing" Curse. If enough people in the party take your selected language, then there is effectively _zero_ penalty. Granted the upside is almost non-existent as well so...

Compared to Deaf or Clouded Vision, either of which is a sizable burden (at least for the first how many levels).



Finally, do remember that Immortality is widely seen as a desirable thing in game, and that multiple Oracle Mysteries grant immortality as part their Final Revelations (Heavens, Time, Solar...).

[hamishspence]

If one is a dragon, an inability to get physically older vastly limits one. No increase in size, damage of breath weapon, gaining of SLAs, etc.

[JonathonWilder]

-correnting my mistake-

Finally, do remember that Immortality is widely seen as a desirable thing in game, and that multiple Oracle Mysteries grant immortality as part their Final Revelations (Heavens, Time, Solar...).
My apologize, it was fairly late when I posted that. I am not certain where I got the idea Oracles where chosen by deities, whether they were willing or unwilling about this not mattering.

Well given what I want to see from my Ageless curse, I would see wanting it to fall in line with Deaf and Clouded Vision, with its strong penaltiesstarting out but with fairly good advantages later on... as a good balance.

Finally, yes I understand it is considered advantagous and an in game reward for many classes counting the Oracle, but this Curse by its nature must come at a cost starting out and really has a ton of support in stories and lore.

Though giving consideration to the fact many Oracle's Mysteries give immortality I would admit making sure the curse's penalties and bonuses don't mess with with the immortality given as final revelations.

The fact stands, this is something I want and instead of telling me it wont work or shouldn't work... perhaps you can offer how it can work and be balanced?


If one is a dragon, an inability to get physically older vastly limits one. No increase in size, damage of breath weapon, gaining of SLAs, etc.
Are you suggesting physical penalties and using a dragon as an example? I'm not cetain what you're saying as this is not about dragons.

[grarrrg]

The fact stands, this is something I want and instead of telling me it wont work or shouldn't work... perhaps you can offer how it can work and be balanced?

I never said "immortality will never work".

Learning how things don't/can't work can be just as helpful as suggesting things that may work.
For example: Red Fel suggested 'being so old you count as undead', which you shot down due to misinterpretation. After correction 'so old count as undead' is back on the table for consideration.

And power-wise, Curses vary wildly, so people need not be constrained (too much) by thinking it has to be at "this" specific power-level. Most anything is open.

And I do have a few idea churning in the back of my head, just nothing worth posting about yet.

[Khosan]

Another possibility could be that the Oracle's soul/body/whatever feeds off their own magical energy to keep them alive. Primary aspect of the curse would be reduced spellcasting, lowering the number of spells they can cast per level by 1, like a handful of other class archetypes do. That seems significant enough to me, but if you want to push it further (or change it) another possibility would be limiting the bonus spells the Oracle gets from their Mystery.

In return, you could give the Oracle a modified Inspiration pool from the Investigator, or something like it anyway. Feels like it fits into the idea pretty well.

At 5th, 10th and 15th, when the curse 'advances,' you could either offer a few choices based on Investigator talents, increase the size/number of the Inspiration die or offer more ways to use the die.

[Red Fel]

First for all of these remember that while Oracle's Curse offers disadvantages, as an Oracle goes up in level advantages are also gained.

The first two options could work, individually, no I would ask what benefits the Oracle word games they go up and level.

The third often is not as much to my liking, especially since oracles are chosen to be a deity's servant and being treat as an aberration or undead could raise some questions if the deity is opposed to these two things.

Well, then, let's consider the options in light of what powers would be attendant.

Option 1: The curse of the body outside of time. Although your body is hard to change, this can be a blessing as well as a curse. Possible benefits: Fast Healing, Regeneration, every morning upon awakening you are the subject of a single Restoration spell, no components required.

Option 2: The curse of the ancient mind. Although the years may have muddled your mind, your have become a receptacle of knowledge, and your will is like iron. Possible benefits: Treat all Knowledge skills as class skills and make all Knowledge checks untrained, reroll Will saves against ongoing effects (as per Legalistic), cast Commune 1/(time period) as an SLA.

Option 3: The curse of the unnatural. As nature chooses to reject you, so do you ultimately reject nature. Gain progressively the benefits of the Undead and/or Aberration type. (You know, like Darkvision, immunity to sleep or bleed effects, immunity to nonlethal or ability damage or drain, that sort of thing.) Pick out what works and make a progression.

And as an aside, as others have observed, Oracles aren't automatically affiliated with a deity. If one is, and that deity is opposed to unnatural things, then that deity probably wouldn't do something as unnatural as creating an ageless being. It seems contradictory, to me.

[dascarletm]

I would give him increasing penalties to social skills. This would be as people age and grow around him, he remains the same but detached (think Dr. Manhattan).

I'd treat it differently than the other curses. You get all the benefits at the start, but the penalties keep increasing. If they soloclass Oracle, then this won't matter too much, but if they don't then just make the penalties based of character level.

[deuxhero]

Are you suggesting physical penalties and using a dragon as an example? I'm not cetain what you're saying as this is not about dragons.

Actually, it doesn't have to be a dragon. Making the penalty being stuck with a child's body (you're immortal but you are TOO young) and the associated negatives is a good start for a mechanically disadvantageous curse.

[thematgreen]

I played an immortal wizard who couldn't age, nor die from age and was not effected by anythng that drops his physical stats, nor negative levels.

He was terrified of everything because he had worked so hard to achieve non lichdom immortality and knew it could be taken away.

Whenever we hit a dangerous situation it rolled a d6.
1- He would flee combat as quickly as possible
If unable to run must reroll the d6 every round
until the end of combat , -4 on all will saves

2- Shaken Status for every round of combat

3- Always go last in a round, -2 on all will saves

4- Perform normally, -2 on all will saves

5- Perform normally, -2 on all will saves

6- Flee in 1d6 rounds
If unable to run must reroll the d6 every round
until the end of combat. -4 to Will saves



It worked well to balance that he could never die nor be effected by level drain/stat drain, but 4 out of 6 times he was severely hampered

[Jack_Simth]

My thoughts exactually on the first part, if kept only to the effects of the aging table to not aging and dying of old age, such effects are unlikely to come about during the course of a normal campaign.

Onto your suggestions, they are probably among the most helpful in considering Immortality/Ageless as an Oracle's Curse. Though I might suggest a distraction penalty to wisdom checks, perception checks and/or initiative checks over Dazed as people, conversations, or events taking place remind the character of his past. Though not will saves.
Hmm... well, some of the Curses are -4 to a semi-common something that's readily easily avoided (Blackened: Weapon attack rolls [and it gives you offensive spells, which aren't affected], Wasting: -4 to most Charisma-based skills [which you'll only need to roll if you're planning on being the party face ... which you don't get the skills for]), so yeah, something like -4 to [Knowledge, Intelligence, and Spellcraft checks] related to current events or recent developments within the last 300 years (such as, say, a spellcraft check to ID a recently-developed spell, a Knowledge check to know stuff about the current king, et cetera) would probably be in line.

[grarrrg]

Alright, so the most obvious problem with an Immorality Curse is the fact that you need to be OLD enough for it to actually 'do' anything.
Memory loss (skill points/skill checks) are thematic and all, but what if you are _actually_ only 30 years old? How do you really justify it then?

And having a Curse with a prerequisite (i.e. "must be at least Venerable to take this Curse") does not seem like a solid plan.

What if part of the curse is "regardless of your actual age, treat your age category as 2 steps higher than normal (if this would put you older than Venerable, then your Aging Bonus/Penalty to Stats becomes +4 all Mentals, -10 all Physicals)". This way it doesn't matter what actual age your character is, the curse will still do 'something'.
One of the later bonuses could be something along the lines of "reduce Stat Age Penalties by 1/2". This also has the added effect of still playing (mostly) nicely with the Mysteries that have 'immortality' as their Capstone.

Yes the 'dragon problem' comes up, and you can either specifically disallow it ("your race must be prone to normal aging penalties"), or go with the gentleman's agreement that is already in place, such as: Merfolk have no Legs, thus they cannot take the Lame curse due to flavor reasons ("One of your legs is permanently wounded").

[JonathonWilder]

Alright, so the most obvious problem with an Immorality Curse is the fact that you need to be OLD enough for it to actually 'do' anything.
Memory loss (skill points/skill checks) are thematic and all, but what if you are _actually_ only 30 years old? How do you really justify it then?

And having a Curse with a prerequisite (i.e. "must be at least Venerable to take this Curse") does not seem like a solid plan.
Thank you, I was just going to bring that up, as unless we have the curse limit h player in what sort of character they can play severely by forcing theit character to start at an old age many of the suggestions wouldn't exactly work.

Onto your suggestion... I originally said I wanted my character to be ageless, unaging. Meaning penalties to physical stats would kind of go against this.

I believe I have found a base/core idea to this that give no bonus or penalties but we can build on to add penalties and bonuses:
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Endless (Ex)
One with this special quality ceases to age once it achieves a certain point in its life cycle, most often sometime after reaching adulthood but prior to its equivalent of middle age. They exist in a special kind of physiological stasis, counteracting all the consequences of advancing years that usually lead to frailty and eventually death. While they must still perform all the necessary sustaining actions (eating, sleeping, breathing, and so on) normally demanded of their type, they never suffer ~om any sort of physical deterioration or consequent reduction in Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. Lacking this special insight into their own mortality, and the incentive to find new, less taxing ways to deal with challenges, they also never gain any improvements to their Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma due to advancing age.