Feat of a Werewolf

[quotemyname]

Hey guys... I am gonna start playing a homebrew campaign soon, and my character will be a werewolf. I took barbarian at first level, because with DR 10/silver, and the physical stat boosts of lycanthropy, the character is pretty much made for the fighter type already.

I am stuck on his feats though. my HD allows me three feats and i am just not sure as to what to pick. ( my DM allows holding feat slots until one meets prerequisits, this is a house rule, so i don't necessesarily have to take all the feats now, i can wait until some better options open up. but i would rather not wait too long.)

One custom feat that is part of the campaign setting is only for werewolves. i plan to hold my third feat to get this when i meet the required BAB +4. this feat adds an additional +2 to all stat bonuses granted by lycanthropy (+2str, +4dex, +4con, +2wis, becomes +4str, +6dex, +6con, +4wis) and an additional round is added to the barbarian rage ability. the downside to this feat is that whenever there is a full moon, the character is required to take hybrid form, any time he is attacked he must make a will save DC 10 + damage dealt, or fly into a berserker rage, attacking whatever is closest.

So i have one of my feats pretty much locked down, but as far as the other two i am stuck! I would like to see my werewolf simply use his natural attacks to maul every opponent that he goes up against, but i have considered that this choice may leave me in the dust during later levels when the other PC's have +3 flaming burst bastard swords and so on. can natural attacks really keep up with magic weapons late-character development? is it worth going through the hassle of using his claws and bit at all? or should i just stick with the greatsword that i gave him for the time he spends in human form?

ANY suggestions you guys have would be great.

Things i have considered:

Monster Manual feats such as improved natural attack, and multiattack. These feats are the ones that i would most like to pick and use. These would do well for the theme of mauling opponents, but can they stand up to the competition late game?

the generic first level human barbarian path: power attack, and cleave, a devistating combo, for sure. but it is a bit bland, and i would prefer not to have to resort to this. unless of course it has the potential of leading to something later on that would be utterly devistating. that would be the only reason i would consider it. its just so common and tasteless...

improved grapple path: what better way to maul somebody than if they cannot fight back with thier weapons? i would still get my natural attacks... but i would lose dex to AC, and there would probably be a slew of other penalties for making grapple my main combat objective.

So i guess the monster manual feats would be my first choice right now. but anything you guys can come up with that i have not thought of would be great. i have about two weeks till i start the game, and i can always hold feats if suggestions are still pouring in after that.

[PinkysBrain]

If you are going to go berserk anyway you might as well become a frenzied berserker ... so take the prerequisite feats for that.

[quotemyname]

well the berzerk will not be controlled by me. thats when i plan to say to my fellow characters, "here is a length of chain, tie me to that tree and come back in the morning. oh, and its probably better if you don't ask questions."

please remember, that they do not necessarily know that i am a werewolf yet.

[silentknight]

I would suggest the MM feats.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Multi-attack, Improved Natural Attack... The list goes on.

[quotemyname]

I want to make a second revision for all of those that are helping me here.

ive requested help on the character building thread as well. see that post here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18300&page=12

my dm will allow most 3.5 books except for that cheap stuff, sadly, i know he does not like the frenzied berzerker class. its too broken he says.

as far as improved naturall attack: Claws or Bite?

[Quietus]

Look at which would benefit the most from increasing. If you're looking at 1d4/1d6 on claws/bite, improved natural isn't really worthwhile. Of course, it's always nice if you have a spare feat laying around to make it all 1d6's.

I'd grab multiattack first, because it fits the mauling aspect, and particularly in the early levels, it'll make you that much scarier. Later on, you may want to consider two-weapon fighting (for when those fights show up that require you to punch through unusual DR, so you can keep your maul - go for spiked gauntlets, bladed gauntlets [arms & equipment], or kukris). Something else you may want to consider is levels of Monk; You can Flurry for your regular attack routine, then use your natural weapons as secondaries at -5. With multiattack, it's only at -2. That's always entertaining - "Yeah, I flurry, get four attacks, then follow up with a claw-claw-bite".

Also, look into Rend. There's a few different ways to get it, see if your DM allows it from any of the books he's letting you use.

[Aximili]

Something else you may want to consider is levels of Monk; You can Flurry for your regular attack routine, then use your natural weapons as secondaries at -5. With multiattack, it's only at -2. That's always entertaining - "Yeah, I flurry, get four attacks, then follow up with a claw-claw-bite".
You can't flurry in a round you attack with non-monk weapons.

[Clementx]

You can't flurry in a round you attack with non-monk weapons.

I'm almost positive that secondary natural weapon attacks are still allowed to be added to the end, assuming you didn't use the limb in your flurry. You aren't allowed to mix non-monk weapons into your BAB-and-Flurry-bonus attacks, but natural weapons are outside the normal order. Probably an FAQ (so who knows what that is worth).

[The_Snark]

Consider the Warshaper, also from Complete Warrior; you qualify with the werewolf template and BAB+4, nothing else needed, and it gives you some nice shapechanging abilities.

Natural weapons can keep up if you can get your hands on an Amulet of Mighty Fists, or if you can persuade the DM to use the Necklace of Natural Weaponry from Savage Species, which provides magic benefits to natural weapons for pretty much the same price as the weapon would; of course, applying it to multiple weapons increases the cost accordingly.

[Fizban]

You can improve your natural attacks with magic just like anyone else, but it'll be more expensive most of the time and you might need custon items. It'll also probably raise questions as to why you, supposedly a human, need these obvously villanous items to enhance claws and teeth.

Amulet of Natural attacks, DMG. Adds an enhancement bonus to all natural attacks of the creature wearing it, costs three times the cost of the same enhancement on a normal weapon. One could possibly put things like flaming on it too, if desired, but it's not in the RAW.

Kensai, PrC in Complete Warrior, can spend xp to enhance his signature weapon, which may be natural attacks. Not really in the theme of your charcter however.

Actually, that's all I can think of at the moment.

[cupkeyk]

Warshaper 4 and/or Bear Warrior 4. You turn into a long limbed bear wolf human hybrid. Yummy

[Zincorium]

Warshaper 4 and/or Bear Warrior 4. You turn into a long limbed bear wolf human hybrid. Yummy

Warshaper 4 is very good, but bear warrior 4 is like fighter 3, the only reason you'd take it is so you can get bear warrior 5, when you gain brown bear form. And it both requires and only works when your character is in a rage or frenzy, so it's not all that good for this character anyway.

[TheOOB]

Consider taking some martial feats from the Tome of Battle, if not going straight into a martial adept class. Any warrior type can gain benefit from some manuvers and staces.

[Darrin]

my dm will allow most 3.5 books except for that cheap stuff, sadly, i know he does not like the frenzied berzerker class. its too broken he says.

What about 3.0 material? See if he'd allow Snow Tiger Berserker at 1st level (Unapproachable East, FR). Allows you to full attack at the end of a charge with light weapons.

[TheOOB]

Wait? Frenzied beserker is too broken? I hope your DM doesn't allow wizards, clerics, and druids.

Frenzied Beserker is extreamly powerful for a melee class, but melee classes tend to be fairly weak as a rule compared to spellcasters, so the class still is of a decent overall power level, if your party doesn't mind the best of being killed when you fail a will save that is.

[AtomicKitKat]

Meh, if you fail a Will save that easily, Calm Emotions, Hold Person, etc.

Where do you get Rend from?

Thayan Gladiator would power up your naturals, but probably not so good for theme.

I'm almost positive that Bear Warrior's bear rage will override your form, so that you're basically just a stronger bear when you rage. If you go Dragon Devotee 3(Races of the Dragon), you can justify the need for claw/bite improvements. It also opens you up to taking Dragon Disciple, which is not good for a caster, but excellent for a melee type. Flying wolf(wo)man for the DFA win!

[quotemyname]

wow... you guys gave me alot to think about. thanks! the things i most like are the suggestions about monk levels and everything, besides monk being the best base class in the game (arguably of course) you get all those free feats and everything. the ability to flurry and then follow up with three natural attacks at only a -2 to everything is just amazing.

im also gonna look at the warshaper class, the amulet of mighty fists, necklas of natural weaponry, and amulet of natural attacks.

its a shame that all these items are amulets...

[Fax Celestis]

Multiplying the price by 1.5 makes them slotless...

[quotemyname]

okay so... after looking at all the stuff you guys gave me (thanks again for all that) i think i will go for the following, provided my DM allows for an alignment change halfway through the character progression. (i think i can justtify it story-wise)

1 - monk - multiattack, Powerattack, hold Feat
2 - monk -
3 - barbarian -
4 - barbarian - Hold Feat
5 - barbarian - Change Held Feat to (that lycanthrope one), change held feat to Improved Natural Attack (Claws)

6 - Warshaper -
7 - Warshaper - Cleave
8 - Warshaper -
9 - Warshaper -

I have not yet decided on the later levels, i can either continue my barbarian progression, to get some more DR, or try for Frenzied Berzerker. I would of course change my feat progression to meet the prerequisits for that. i think power attack and cleave are just a good general fighter-type feat progression to fill in some of the blanks there.

let me know what you think!

[Zincorium]

okay so... after looking at all the stuff you guys gave me (thanks again for all that) i think i will go for the following, provided my DM allows for an alignment change halfway through the character progression. (i think i can justtify it story-wise)

1 - monk - multiattack, Powerattack, hold Feat
2 - monk -
3 - barbarian -
4 - barbarian - Hold Feat
5 - barbarian - Change Held Feat to (that lycanthrope one), change held feat to Improved Natural Attack (Claws)

6 - Warshaper -
7 - Warshaper - Cleave
8 - Warshaper -
9 - Warshaper -

I have not yet decided on the later levels, i can either continue my barbarian progression, to get some more DR, or try for Frenzied Berzerker. I would of course change my feat progression to meet the prerequisits for that. i think power attack and cleave are just a good general fighter-type feat progression to fill in some of the blanks there.

let me know what you think!

Your DM lets you hold your feats? Weird. That's a great deal for the players, but most DMs don't want to go against RAW on the subject.

As I see it, one of your main problems is going to be a low BAB, due to the level adjustment and animal hit dice, and monk and warshaper are really only going to compound that problem. It's not that important if you really, seriously intend to only fight in werewolf form, but it's a problem if you're in your non werewolf (human?) form, where you not only have lower stats but rely on iterative attacks to attack more than once, since TWF is pretty much a waste.

Monk is a mixed bag, the saves are good, evasion is handy, and the AC bonus somewhat makes up for not wearing armor, but I'd really avoid flurrying and attacking with your natural weapons as secondary unless you can't avoid missing. With a low BAB (8 for a 14th ECL character unless you're doing werewolf much differently than is standard), a -7 on your attacks is going to make them very unlikely to hit, dramatically reducing damage, and power attack is pretty much unusable, which is a shame because you get a 1 for 1 return on every attack you have, and that will increase if you get FB. Go for fewer attacks rather than a whole bunch which have no chance of hitting.

Also, the fifth level of warshaper may not be a good idea. Flash morph is fairly lackluster for a capstone ability, and you lose another point of attack bonus. You're effectively taking a -1 to attack and losing a class level of abilities somewhere else to change the action you use on the first round of combat only.

[quotemyname]

yea thats what i was thinking! would it be better you think to just stick with barbarian, (during the first two levels) since i can wear a chainshirt anyway (and combined with my massive dex bonus maybe even studded leather) AC will not be a problem. my human form (yes human) will be packing a longsword and a heavy steel shield just in case things go awry and its unfavorable for me to shapchange.

its only a move action to drop the shield (or part of a move action given my +1 BAB) and a free action to drop the sword, so i can close the distance and change to hybrid form on the first round of combat that i decide to, and be ready to full attack the round afterwards.

I am somewhat confused as to your shorthand... i don't recall ever hearing the following acronyms... TWF? FB - Frenzied Berzerker?

I did not include the fifth level of warshaper in the setup above because i recognized exactly that problem that you noticed. the lack of BAB and a lackluster ability. i would rather go Barb and get the increased HD and possibly some more abilities.

i have been thinking about the Frenzied Berzerker class, and if i forgo the improved natural attack, then i might be able to start getting frenzied berzerker starting 11th level. ill take intimidating rage and destructive rage and be set with FB untill epic levels. the revised list should look something like this:

1 - barb - multiattack, power attack, hold feat
2 - barb -
3 - barb - replace held feat with (that lycanthrope one)
4 - Warshaper(WS) - Cleave
5 - WS -
6 - WS -
7 - WS - Intimidating Rage
8 - Barb -
9 - Barb -
10 - Barb - Destructive Rage
11 - Frenzied Berzerker (FB) -
12 - FB -
13 - FB - Improved natural attack (claws)
...
20 - FB -

The FB levels would allow me to dive into the fray (almost quite literally) with little to no worry about my safety. (As long as there is a cleric around to bring me back up after the frenzy ends) What with the DR from silver, and AC thats naturally above 20, and probably some magic items to boost my attack damage (and maybe AC as well), i should be in pretty good shape.

even with losing 4 points of AC when in frenzy, i will still be between 16-18 (not counting magic item enhancements which i am sure to have by the time that i am 20th level) which is not that bad...

this is all considering that i can talk the DM into allowing me to use FB...

again, thanks for your help, and as always, input is welcome.

[Fax Celestis]

You may want to consider ferocity (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) instead of rage (provided your DM lets it qualify as rage for feats, prcs, et al). It'd make your Dex bonus stellar.

[Collin152]

Seriously, to keep up with your allie's magical weaponry, Kensei is the way to go. "Eat my +2 Spell Storing Claws!"

[Caelestion]

Multiplying the price by 1.5 makes them slotless...
Actually, it doesn't. Multiplying all but the most expensive item by 1.5 allows them all to be put in one item. Doubling them allows them all as slotless items.

[quotemyname]

more very good suggestions, thank you. as for ferocity, my dex bonus with the werewolf bumps is already higher than it needs to be, to the point that i can't wear most armor without it capping off at the max dex bonus stat of that armor. i already have to go down to studded leather, and so i don't think ferocity is the way to go, but thank you.

The clarifications about the items is great, but i don't think kensai is the way to go for this character, he is after all predominantly chaotic. This is not like the RPGA, changing your alignment is NOT a free action.

[Collin152]

Eh. See if you can get a houseruled prerequisite change, as it's the only way your natural attacks can compare to magical weaponry. Hm... Vorpal Bite, anybody?

[Fax Celestis]

Eh. See if you can get a houseruled prerequisite change, as it's the only way your natural attacks can compare to magical weaponry. Hm... Vorpal Bite, anybody?

Mmm....brains.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Savage Species has an magical Item called Necklace of of Natural Weapons which most people appear to completely glaze over when reading that book. Basically it means you can wear them to give your natural attacks properties. You wear a +2 Wounding Necklace of Natural Weapons and one of your natural weapons becomes +2 and Wounding. You can get them enchanted to affect multiple natural weapons.

[Collin152]

I thought Savage Species was 3.0?

[Fax Celestis]

I thought Savage Species was 3.0?

It is indeed.

[Collin152]

It is indeed.
So is it valid material for this build?

[Piccamo]

All 3.0 material is valid until an updated version comes out.

[Aximili]

All 3.0 material is valid if the DM thinks it should be.

[Collin152]

I repeat: for this build.

[quotemyname]

Well... i don't think i have savage species to begin with, so the point very well may be moot.

I have come across another problem. If i want FB by 11th, then as it stands now, i would have to give up getting improved naturall attack until very late levels. this leaves my damage dice with something to be desired. however, if i throw in two levels of fighter (instead of Barb, possibly at 2 and 3) i can pick up power attack and cleave as my two bonus feats there. this would allow me to get improved natural attack much earlier. now the question is, are the extra feats worth losing two potential levels of the barbarian bonus HP and abilities?

a penny for your thoughts...

[Piccamo]

Most of the time a melee character's damage does not come from weapon dice. It comes from Power Attack, Strength Bonus, Dex Bonus (with that maneuver in ToB), Sneak Attack, Skirmish, etc. How much average damage do you gain from Improved Natural Attack? It may end up being a waste of a feat.