Beast Master and the number of animal companions

[Melcar]

I am trying to understand this PrC in terms of total number of animal companions and what level these animal would be on.

Now lets say we have a level 5 ranger, who takes this PrC at level 6. Thus being level 5 ranger 1 beast master. The ranger gains an animal companion at level 4, and in all affairs are counted as being half druid level. Thus a level 5 ranger would count as a level 2.5 druid (2 rounded down). Now beastmaster says that it gains an animal companion at level 1, and that beastmaster counts as being a druid +3, thus a level 1 beast master counts as a level 4 druid in terms of animal companions. Does this mean, that the level 5 ranger, who takes this PrC, gains another animal companion at this level and the another at level 4, 7 and 10, for a total of 5 animal companions or a total of 4?

And in terms of level, it says that beast master and any other class that gives an animal companion stacks. Does that mean that our character in mention would count in all aspects for all animal companions as a of level 6 druid? (level 5 ranger/2 = 2 and level 1 Beastmaster +3 = 4 TOTAL +6)?


I have never really spent much time of druid/ranger stuff, so this is all new stuff for me.

[Ellowryn]

For a Ranger, you would have 1 animal companion as a 6th level druid (2 for Ranger, 4 for Beastmaster). The additional animal companions are just a class feature of Beastmaster so you would indeed get additional companions at class level 4,7,and 10 for a total (at Character level 15) of 4 animal companions at Druid levels 15,10,7,and 4 respectively (the additional companions don't benefit from your ranger levels).

[Melcar]

For a Ranger, you would have 1 animal companion as a 6th level druid (2 for Ranger, 4 for Beastmaster). The additional animal companions are just a class feature of Beastmaster so you would indeed get additional companions at class level 4,7,and 10 for a total (at Character level 15) of 4 animal companions at Druid levels 15,10,7,and 4 respectively (the additional companions don't benefit from your ranger levels).

Thanks... Although I follow your line of thought, I kind of also feel that it kind of contradicts the ability of the beastmaster


Animal Companion (Ex): A beastmaster gains the service of a loyal animal companion. See the druid class feature, pages 35-36 of the Player's Handbook. Treat the beastmaster as a druid whose level is equal to the beastmaster's class level + 3. A beastmaster can select one of the animals available to a 1st-level druid and then apply the modifications as appropriate for a 4th-level druid's animal companion, or she can select a typical version of one of the animals available to a 4th-level druid.

As a beastmaster gains class levels, her animal companion gains Hit Dice and other special abilities just as a druid's animal companion does. Use the beastmaster's class level + 3 to determine the animal companion's special abilities. If a beastmaster already has an animal companion from another class, her beastmaster class levels stack with class levels from all other classes that grant an animal companion. For example, a 5th-level druid/2nd-level beastmaster would be treated as a 10th-level druid for the purpose of improving the statistics of her animal companion (and which alternative animal companions she could select).

As far as I read it, you gain an animal companion at level 1, 4, 7 and 10 of this PrC, and any other animal would simply be added to the pool of animals? To me it also looks like the character would have a total level and not a ranger level pool and a beastmaster/druid pool of levels for the animals... Meaning that at total character level 15 (5 ranger/ 10 beastmaster) it would count as a level 15 druid in terms of animal companions. (2 for ranger and 13 for beastmaster, for all of its animal companions? Do I have it all wrong?

[eggynack]

That section replaces the initial rule for the gained animal companion. It's not in addition to it. As for the extra companions, those are completely unrelated for rules purposes, and don't stack with anything but beastmaster level. Thus, the ultimate capstone of the class is basically a completely unadvanced and unadvancable (unless you use natural bond, which only works on one companion) riding dog. Frigging hate beastmaster, in other words.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That section replaces the initial rule for the gained animal companion. It's not in addition to it. As for the extra companions, those are completely unrelated for rules purposes, and don't stack with anything but beastmaster level. Thus, the ultimate capstone of the class is basically a completely unadvanced and unadvancable (unless you use natural bond, which only works on one companion) riding dog. Frigging hate beastmaster, in other words.

You can advance the additional companions with the feats from DR#325, but you'd have to take them for every companion seperately. It's a lot of effort for very little gain. It's also rather annoying to play in practice because you have to take actions for 5 creatures every round while barely accomplishing anything.

[Deox]

http://oyster.ignimgs.com/mediawiki/apis.ign.com/futurama/thumb/4/4d/Zookeeper.jpg/460px-Zookeeper.jpg

Especially when he asks hawk to fetch the gemerald.

[Melcar]

That section replaces the initial rule for the gained animal companion. It's not in addition to it. As for the extra companions, those are completely unrelated for rules purposes, and don't stack with anything but beastmaster level. Thus, the ultimate capstone of the class is basically a completely unadvanced and unadvancable (unless you use natural bond, which only works on one companion) riding dog. Frigging hate beastmaster, in other words.

Im not sure I understand what you mean? Could you perhaps explain how this replaces the initial rule, not just adding to it? And how would the animals be unadvancable? That's not at all as I read it.

If it says that classes that gives an animal companion stacks with beast master. How can that not then translate into the ranger and beastmaster being counted as one? Like a 10th level ranger/ 10th level beastmaster being counted as a level 18 druid? You simply look Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#theDruidsAnimalCompanion) and as the 10th level beast master/ 10th ranger is a total of level 18 druid that would indicate that the animals gained would have +12HD, +12 nat. AC, +6str/dex, +7 bonus tricks. the next in line would then count as level 15, then level 12, then 9.

It also says that this combined level (in the example, level 18) would also be derterminant for which new animal campanions she would want. It might be badly worded, but in short as I read it, its exactly like a druid in terms of animal companions, except that it gains more animals and that it gains +3 levels. So actually better than druid, in terms of animal companions only.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The first companion stacks at Beastmaster + other levels +3. The others don't. Look for the last paragraph under "Extra Animal Companion".

Other class levels in classes that offer an animal companion don't stack for the purpose of determining the power of a beastmaster's additional animal companions, nor do they allow her to choose additional animal companions from the alternative lists.

So your second companion has a maximum effective druid level of 7 (Beastmaster -3), the third has a maximum EDL of 4 (BM -6) and the fourth has a maximum EDL of 1 (BM -9).
Since even the animal companion of a single-class druid tends to fall behind at higher levels you can see how the Beastmasters additional companions are already mostly worthless by the time you get them.

[Melcar]

The first companion stacks at Beastmaster + other levels +3. The others don't. Look for the last paragraph under "Extra Animal Companion".


So your second companion has a maximum effective druid level of 7 (Beastmaster -3), the third has a maximum EDL of 4 (BM -6) and the fourth has a maximum EDL of 1 (BM -9).
Since even the animal companion of a single-class druid tends to fall behind at higher levels you can see how the Beastmasters additional companions are already mostly worthless by the time you get them.

For some reason I missed this paragraph. This is quite contradictory to the first couble of paragraphs... The whole point of the class just died right there. How on earth could I have missed that...


Ok... Sooo if I want to have a ranger, that optimizes his animal companion, preferable either getting more or even more powerful companions like magical beasts what then do I do? WHat classes, feats ect.? WHat do I do?

[sleepyphoenixx]

There isn't much official content that improves a rangers animal companion. Wild Cohort is okay but lacks several animal companion features, Share Spells being the most important imo.
You can play a druid/prestige ranger instead, if your DM allows UA.

Beast Heart Adept (DS) allows you several magical beast companions but it has the same restrictions as Beastmaster, only they affect the first companion too.
Totem Companion (ECS) lets you trade your animal companion for a magical beast but it costs 2 feats and the list is pretty underwhelming imo.
Zhentarim Skymage (LoD) lets you get anything flying as a mount, with share spells. It's pretty much restricted to evil though and requires arcane casting.

Then there's the classes that grant you something (often a specific creature) as a special mount. Knight of the Iron Glacier, Ashworm Dragoon, Aglarondan Griffonrider, Knight of the flying Hunt, Moonsea Skysentinel, Triadic Knight, Knight of the Blue Moon, Great Rift Skyguard... and a few others i don't recall without looking them up.
They all have some things in common though. Usually the creature is rather weak, Special Mount progression generally isn't that impressive to begin with and their class features are generally underwhelming to nonexistent. I'm not sure if any of them mesh well with a ranger build so you'll have to look them up. They are generally stackable with the Theurgic Mount/Theurgic Bond stuff from Dr#325 though, if that's allowed.

Leadership can work if your DM allows it, but it doesn't actually grant any animal companion features. You might as well use diplomacy/wild empathy/handle animal at that point and just get companions straight out of the book.

[prufock]

Ok... Sooo if I want to have a ranger, that optimizes his animal companion, preferable either getting more or even more powerful companions like magical beasts what then do I do? WHat classes, feats ect.? WHat do I do?

1. Be a nonhumanoid (oddly, warforged qualify), and take the Fangshield Ranger substitution level at 4th. It gives you animal companion just like the normal ranger, but at +2 effective druid level (so 4 / 2 + 2 when you get it = 4; would be 12 at 20th).

2. If evil take Feral Animal Companion (+2 Str & Con); if good take Exalted Companion.

3. Natural Bond. Effective Druid Level +3 up to your HD. You're now up to EDL 15 at 20th.

4. Still dip Beastmaster for 1 level, for that nice +3. Now at EDL 18.

5. The Abolisher PrC is nice for rangers. Improves favoured enemy and animal companion, and grants wild shape. No direct improvements to your AC except that levels stack, but still a nice class.

6. Lion of Talisid is also a decent PrC, but with one crappy prerequisite.

7. If in FR, be an elf and take Aerenal Companion, which is +3 effective druid level for baboons only. Okay if you want a baboon, useless otherwise.

8. See if you can train your AC with the Warbeast template.

9. Vadalis Beastkeeper, if playing in Eberron, at level 5 will apply the Magebred template.

S'all I got right now.

EDIT: Oh yes, remember too that your AC gets feats as normal for gaining HD. Also items.

1. If it has a good alignment and Int 3+, it can take Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty. VoP is normally crappy for PCs, but on an AC is not so bad, since you'd probably be limiting the equipment you assign to it anyway.

2. If not VoP, remember to get it flight somehow, and boost its natural armor and natural attacks with an amulet of natural attacks + natural armor.

3. Mage Slayer is an interesting feat to give it, if it's going to be up close with spellcasters.

4. Improved Natural Attack and Multiattack (if it has multiple natural weapons) are good investments.

5. Martial Study/Stance can get it maneuvers, Shape Soulmeld can get it some incarnum item, Bind Vestige could be interesting.

[Melcar]

1. Be a nonhumanoid (oddly, warforged qualify), and take the Fangshield Ranger substitution level at 4th. It gives you animal companion just like the normal ranger, but at +2 effective druid level (so 4 / 2 + 2 when you get it = 4; would be 12 at 20th).

2. If evil take Feral Animal Companion (+2 Str & Con); if good take Exalted Companion.

3. Natural Bond. Effective Druid Level +3 up to your HD. You're now up to EDL 15 at 20th.

4. Still dip Beastmaster for 1 level, for that nice +3. Now at EDL 18.

5. The Abolisher PrC is nice for rangers. Improves favoured enemy and animal companion, and grants wild shape. No direct improvements to your AC except that levels stack, but still a nice class.

6. Lion of Talisid is also a decent PrC, but with one crappy prerequisite.

7. If in FR, be an elf and take Aerenal Companion, which is +3 effective druid level for baboons only. Okay if you want a baboon, useless otherwise.

8. See if you can train your AC with the Warbeast template.

9. Vadalis Beastkeeper, if playing in Eberron, at level 5 will apply the Magebred template.

S'all I got right now.

EDIT: Oh yes, remember too that your AC gets feats as normal for gaining HD. Also items.

1. If it has a good alignment and Int 3+, it can take Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty. VoP is normally crappy for PCs, but on an AC is not so bad, since you'd probably be limiting the equipment you assign to it anyway.

2. If not VoP, remember to get it flight somehow, and boost its natural armor and natural attacks with an amulet of natural attacks + natural armor.

3. Mage Slayer is an interesting feat to give it, if it's going to be up close with spellcasters.

4. Improved Natural Attack and Multiattack (if it has multiple natural weapons) are good investments.

5. Martial Study/Stance can get it maneuvers, Shape Soulmeld can get it some incarnum item, Bind Vestige could be interesting.



Very cool.... Can you explain why it would need +3 int to get the VoP feat line?

[Extra Anchovies]

Very cool.... Can you explain why it would need +3 int to get the VoP feat line?

I think that's so it can have a non-neutral alignment. Exalted Companion should do the trick.

[Nihilarian]

If your DM allows it, you could do Beast Heart Adept/Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion to keep advancing your monstrous companions. Also ask if Natural Bond can be taken for Monstrous Companion.

[Dread_Head]

Or another way to get a decent mount is to go Paladin 5 / Beastmater 1 then take 10 levels in Halfling Outrider and the Devoted Tracker feat. Then use a way to get the magical beast you want as your paladin mount. It now adds both special mount and animal companion perks to the same creature and Halfling outrider increases both your animal companion and special mount at each level so you double up on the benefits. Or if you want a more ranger focused build go ranger 4 / cleric 1 / prestige paladin 2 / beastmaster 1 / halfling ourider 10 with the devoted tracker feat and you have a special mount level of 15 and an ac level of 16(18 or 19 with natural bond) at level 18 and apply both sets of bonuses to the same creature.

[prufock]

Or another way to get a decent mount is to go Paladin 5 / Beastmater 1 then take 10 levels in Halfling Outrider and the Devoted Tracker feat. Then use a way to get the magical beast you want as your paladin mount. It now adds both special mount and animal companion perks to the same creature and Halfling outrider increases both your animal companion and special mount at each level so you double up on the benefits. Or if you want a more ranger focused build go ranger 4 / cleric 1 / prestige paladin 2 / beastmaster 1 / halfling ourider 10 with the devoted tracker feat and you have a special mount level of 15 and an ac level of 16(18 or 19 with natural bond) at level 18 and apply both sets of bonuses to the same creature.


Beastmater

I know it's a typo, but hahaha!


Very cool.... Can you explain why it would need +3 int to get the VoP feat line?


I think that's so it can have a non-neutral alignment. Exalted Companion should do the trick.

And yes, animals normally have netural alignment, but exalted feats require good alignment, so it needs Int 3+. Exalted Companion or the Planar Ranger Companion sub level will do it, as could any of the methods to get monstrous beast companion (Beast Heart Adept, Totem Companion, etc).

[Melcar]

Ok... so we get a celestial wolf, use its ability score increase at HD 4 to boost int to 3, and then give it at 3rd and 6 HD Sacred vow and VoP??? Is that the right way to do it?

Another question? Can an animal with 3+ int take class levels? And if yes? How would it gain levels?

[Extra Anchovies]

Ok... so we get a celestial wolf, use its ability score increase at HD 4 to boost int to 3, and then give it at 3rd and 6 HD Sacred vow and VoP??? Is that the right way to do it?

Another question? Can an animal with 3+ int take class levels? And if yes? How would it gain levels?

A celestial/fiendish creature has a base intelligence of 3 anyways, so Exalted Companion nets you that. Also, animal companions don't gain experience points, their advancement is derived from yours; sadly, this means we can't have pet bears with Swordsage levels.

[Troacctid]

The Share Soulmeld feat from Magic of Incarnum gives your animal companion a ton of great buffs as long as it's within five feet of you and you have soulmelds shaped.

[Melcar]

A celestial/fiendish creature has a base intelligence of 3 anyways, so Exalted Companion nets you that. Also, animal companions don't gain experience points, their advancement is derived from yours; sadly, this means we can't have pet bears with Swordsage levels.

Ok... So raw wise we could not substitude its HD increase with lets say fighter levels?

[Runeclaw]

Ok... So raw wise we could not substitute its HD increase with lets say fighter levels?

Not for an Animal Companion, no. To do this, you'd need to go the Leadership route and use Awaken or a template to increase Int. But then you run into a problem where most of the animals have LA: - , so you'd have to negotiate with your DM.

If you manage all that, there are of course much better class levels than Fighter to give your pet.

[Extra Anchovies]

Not for an Animal Companion, no. To do this, you'd need to go the Leadership route and use Awaken or a template to increase Int. But then you run into a problem where most of the animals have LA: - , so you'd have to negotiate with your DM.

If you manage all that, there are of course much better class levels than Fighter to give your pet.

Like Druid going into Beastmaster! Then you can awaken their companion, too! And give that companion druid levels! And then get books thrown at you by the DM!

[Melcar]

Like Druid going into Beastmaster! Then you can awaken their companion, too! And give that companion druid levels! And then get books thrown at you by the DM!

Whats wrong with a little wolf apolcalypse?

[Baroknik]

So... This makes me want to play a VoP druid/beast master that uses all of his bonus exalted feats on getting multiple celestial companions that have VoP (except the last one bar chaos shuffling a racial feat).

[eggynack]

So... This makes me want to play a VoP druid/beast master that uses all of his bonus exalted feats on getting multiple celestial companions that have VoP (except the last one bar chaos shuffling a racial feat).
It doesn't look like you'd need to take exalted companion more than once, as the feat just directly adjusts the list you can pull from rather than swapping power to each individual companion. VoP probably isn't particularly necessary as a result.

[Vogonjeltz]

I'd bear in mind that you could, with only 6 levels of Ranger and 10 Beastmaster levels, get a T-Rex as a companion, something that's out of reach for a Ranger and would otherwise require 8 levels of Ranger and 12 of Druid (assuming you wanted to maximize Ranger levels)

[Deadkitten]

There are feats and such in Pathfinder that allow you to advance your effective druid level for your animal companions ,but that is in pathfinder.....

[Max Caysey]

Whould anyone here allow a ranger or druid to actually give the sacred vow and vow of poverty to their celestial Animal companion?

[Extra Anchovies]

Whould anyone here allow a ranger or druid to actually give the sacred vow and vow of poverty to their celestial Animal companion?

If it was of good alignment and had an intelligence of 3 or higher? I'd allow it for a Ranger (cuz their companions are kinda sucky). Not for a druid though.

[eggynack]

Whould anyone here allow a ranger or druid to actually give the sacred vow and vow of poverty to their celestial Animal companion?
There's a decent chance, yeah. Druids have access to significantly more powerful feats than this one, after all, especially when you factor in all of the reasonably relevant downsides, including the animal companion losing two of its feats on this, losing the ability to be equipped, and being occasionally behind on advancement. I'm not even sure that this is better than companion spellbond.

[Extra Anchovies]

There's a decent chance, yeah. Druids have access to significantly more powerful feats than this one, after all, especially when you factor in all of the reasonably relevant downsides, including the animal companion losing two of its feats on this, losing the ability to be equipped, and being occasionally behind on advancement. I'm not even sure that this is better than companion spellbond.

Indeed. Barring your AC from using magic items means no flying bears :smallfrown: Also, yeah. It costs two feats. That could mean giving up (or at least delaying) Improved Natural Attack or something similar.

If I ever play a gestalt game, I'm going to play a VoP Druid//Incarnate, and always talk about how useless magic items are. Druid//Totemist is more flavorful, but I can get more passive stuff from Incarnate.

[Max Caysey]

You guys dont think that an animal companion with vow of powerty, would be too powerful? And what about he idea that the animal would have to take vows? Its not very smart... could it actually understand the consept?

[eggynack]

You guys dont think that an animal companion with vow of powerty, would be too powerful? And what about he idea that the animal would have to take vows? Its not very smart... could it actually understand the consept?
As I already said on the first point, there are better feats. There's natural spell, obviously, as well as greenbound summoning, rashemi elemental summoning, aberration wild shape, dragon wild shape, probably exalted wild shape, likely companion spellbond, and just for kicks, I'll toss versatile spellcaster on there too. Whether this is too powerful, well, that depends on the game, but if you want to ban this, you'll probably want to ban a lot of other stuff first.

On the second point, the celestial companion has three intelligence, which means that it's able to understand concepts and make decisions on stuff of this nature. This is the intelligence range at which a creature is allowed to be a PC, and the celestial companion, being celestial, is about as good as it gets. I don't see much in the way of a reason to not allow the companion access to VoP on a rules basis.

[Troacctid]

I would definitely allow the animal companion to take VoP if the PC is also taking it.

[Max Caysey]

I would definitely allow the animal companion to take VoP if the PC is also taking it.

What if the PC did not take VoP?

[Melcar]

I think its interesting that people would allow the animal to take the feats Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty. A full leveled animal would gain so much from this.

[eggynack]

I think its interesting that people would allow the animal to take the feats Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty. A full leveled animal would gain so much from this.
It's not about how much you gain from this, but about how much you could gain by doing not-this. On a druid, which is a class running possibly the best feat list in the game, what you could be doing otherwise is absolutely massive.

[Svata]

Eh, ability scores only get one so far, and there only a handful of good exalted feats.

[Melcar]

It's not about how much you gain from this, but about how much you could gain by doing not-this. On a druid, which is a class running possibly the best feat list in the game, what you could be doing otherwise is absolutely massive.

I was specifically refering to the animal taking the feats, not the druid or the ranger.

As I see it, a level 7 druid could have its exalted wolf companion, which would now be a magical beast, with all those perks, gain Sacred Vow at 3rd HD and Vow of poverty at 6th HD.

I would very much like to see what else you guys have for the animal companion... I dare you :smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

I was specifically refering to the animal taking the feats, not the druid or the ranger.

As I see it, a level 7 druid could have its exalted wolf companion, which would now be a magical beast, with all those perks, gain Sacred Vow at 3rd HD and Vow of poverty at 6th HD.

I would very much like to see what else you guys have for the animal companion... I dare you :smallbiggrin:
That's not really the main cost to the overall build though. Animal companion feats aren't that great, after all, and power derived from animal companion itemization is reasonable but not spectacular. The biggest opportunity cost is in the druid feat. If you ignore that, then yeah, this is obviously a fantastic option.

[Coidzor]

You guys dont think that an animal companion with vow of powerty, would be too powerful? And what about he idea that the animal would have to take vows? Its not very smart... could it actually understand the consept?

No. Mostly it cuts down on bookkeeping, which I approve of.

Int 3 Human can, Int 3 Fleshraker can.

[Melcar]

That's not really the main cost to the overall build though. Animal companion feats aren't that great, after all, and power derived from animal companion itemization is reasonable but not spectacular. The biggest opportunity cost is in the druid feat. If you ignore that, then yeah, this is obviously a fantastic option.

Indeed... I am aware that the druid itself have spectacular options, but SV and VoP is so far the best options I have seen for the companion. I would add improved natural attack, but besides that.

[eggynack]

Indeed... I am aware that the druid itself have spectacular options, but SV and VoP is so far the best options I have seen for the companion. I would add improved natural attack, but besides that.
I'm just not particularly sure why you'd be surprised that folks would allow this though, given that it's not especially overpowered in the larger sense.

[Ettina]

You guys dont think that an animal companion with vow of powerty, would be too powerful? And what about he idea that the animal would have to take vows? Its not very smart... could it actually understand the consept?

Just use Awaken on them.

[eggynack]

Just use Awaken on them.
Doesn't really work, as awakening an animal companion makes it not your animal companion.

[Theomniadept]

Or another way to get a decent mount is to go Paladin 5 / Beastmater 1 then take 10 levels in Halfling Outrider and the Devoted Tracker feat. Then use a way to get the magical beast you want as your paladin mount. It now adds both special mount and animal companion perks to the same creature and Halfling outrider increases both your animal companion and special mount at each level so you double up on the benefits. Or if you want a more ranger focused build go ranger 4 / cleric 1 / prestige paladin 2 / beastmaster 1 / halfling ourider 10 with the devoted tracker feat and you have a special mount level of 15 and an ac level of 16(18 or 19 with natural bond) at level 18 and apply both sets of bonuses to the same creature.

You probably want Paladin 6 for the Planar sub level at 6 to make it Celestial.

[Melcar]

You probably want Paladin 6 for the Planar sub level at 6 to make it Celestial.
Indeed. Celsestial makes it way better!