The Summoner - a case for Tier 1

[neonchameleon]

The Summoner is a clear Tier 2 class at a minimum. Massive amounts of raw power and tricks. They are spontaneous casters with closet nine (or at least eight - they fall away right at the top) levels of spells. But I think they creep into Tier 1 through the side door - and as normal I'm going to try to demonstrate this at level 13. So first let's look at the tier system.


The Tier System

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite (Spell to Power Variant)

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and easily world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges), Eurdite (No Spell to Power)

Tier 2, obviously. A summoner is competitive as a spellcaster with a sorcerer (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VAc_eoV_uwQoRjxgaofIGyPcdwLgaCzVJbjynN3ONao/edit#). Doesn't win - but once you take away the Sorcerer's way in to tier 1 (Paragon Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge) for Expanded Arcana (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/expanded-arcana) for those unaware) the Summoner not just has the pick of most of the best sorcerer spells, but gets some of them early (like Haste as a second level spell). Tier 2 on that alone.

The Summoner also has a second Tier 2 feature - Summoning. This, on its own, would make the Summoner Tier 2. It's one of the most flexible top level wizard spells - that they can do 3+Cha modifier times per day. I'll go into that later.

It has a Tier 3 feature - the Eidolon. Without much except the Eidolon you'd have an adequate fighter and pretty good scout.

It also has a second, hidden tier 3 feature - being the best class at Use Magic Device in the game once you take into account that it's Charisma-primary and can spend Evolution Points on itself. At level 13, a Summoner should have a Charisma of at least 20 - and a +4 Cloak on top of that for a total of +7. 13 ranks as a class skill for +16. And an Evolution Point spent for a further +8. Total: +31, meaning that on a 2 they can cast from 13th level scrolls - or fake a Wis of 18. They can use magic items of any class (including the book of scrolls) almost as well as members of that class - and if scrolls are freely available (as they are for Tier 1 wizards) Summoners can decipher them more easily and cast them almost as well. (That +8 really comes in handy here). On its own, having a UMD that leaves rogues turning green with envy wouldn't be enough - but it's very useful. If scrolls are freely available, Summoners can make full use of the loose leaf ring binder spellbook. And if they aren't, wizards are struggling. Also throw in that they can't just make use of everyone else's items other than weapons and armour, they can make better use than anyone else of metamagic rods (such as using a Lesser Dazing Rod on Wall of Fire) and they can create wands that no one else can - like Wands of Wall of Stone and Wands of Teleport. (And Potions of Stoneskin).

But does this combine for enough for Tier 1?

I'm going to say yes for two reasons. First that the Summoner Summon Monster X SLA is of different kind to the spell family Summon Monster X, and second that even as a spontaneous caster, there's enough broken out of combat stuff that the Summoner is at least a match for the divine casters (they might be missing some of the Wizard's really useful spells like Contingency and Limited Wish, but they have plenty of useful spells like Simulacrum, Greater Teleport, and Wall of Stone). They aren't broken in all the way wizards are - but wizards aren't broken in all the way Summoners are either.

The Summon Monster SLA is more powerful than the wizard spell of the same level because of the standard action. But fundamentally this doesn't make it a tier different from the spell in the same way that if a fighter was to do a million damage per sword swing it would still be tier 2. Broken - but not broken in all directions.

The Summon Monster SLA is fundamentally different from what a wizard can do for the other reason. The duration. At level 13 the spell will last 78 seconds. A useful length of time to handle an immediate problem - but by the short duration's nature you can't send the summon that far from you. The SLA will last 13 minutes - and monsters like Air Elementals fly at 100ft. Bralani Azata (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/azata/bralani) are both smart and can fly at 100ft per move action with perfect maneuverability - and they speak Truespeech. And you summon d4+2 of them at a time (and can probably give one or two of them an Evolution Point (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/evolved-summoned-monster) thanks to the ACG). This is a level of flexibility for independent operation and spreading out that the wizard simply can't match - even if the wizard tries Prying Eyes (http://paizo.com/prd/spells/pryingEyes.html) there may be more of them but the eyes aren't capable of using their own initiative - or of defending themselves or any of a number of other things including orchestrating rescues while the summoner themself plays decoy. Or of lightning bolting enemies. Intelligent long lived spellcasting servants (with 80hp and DR10 in the case of the Bralani) are a difference in kind rather than a simple upgrade. The only way a wizard is matching that is with a Simulacrum, and Simulacra simply aren't expendible (even if created with Blood Money).

And before the argument is made that the Bralani has a limited spell list, your point is? You're also telling me that d3+1 Succubi (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/succubus) for almost quarter of an hour aren't significantly different to d3+1 succubi for just over a minute? I mean, of course, with the Detect Thoughts (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-thoughts) spell - and the ability to cast over and over again until the save is failed. A minute or even less won't get much out of someone - a dozen will. Also succubi may be fast at working a room - but even they can't normally get the target out in a minute.

This is just scratching the surface; one of the big points of Summon Monster is that just by preparing the one spell you have a vast array of spells available. The ability to summon intelligent monsters with their own spell lists changes the nature rather than merely the effect of the spell into a type of broken the wizard can't match.

As for flexibility, Summon Monster X is the most insanely flexible family of spells in the game. And the Summoner can cast more of them for longer than anyone else - with our Charisma of 24, the Summoner can cast ten of them at the highest in a day before even touching their spell allocation. A 13th level wizard is doing well to get three castings of Summon Monster VII or equivalent spells.

This doesn't, of course, mean that the Summoner can match all the ways the wizard is broken - despite the vast array of spells their summons can cast they are, of course, missing Limited Wish and Contingency amongst others. But let's look at the other tier 1 spell lists. The Cleric (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/spell-lists---cleric) and Druid (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/spell-lists---druid).

Druid's easier. What spells are there that the Druid gets on their 6th and 7th level lists that genuinely affect the strategic situation of the game? Control Weather - possibly. Heal? Probably - but its only use is in combat healing, and the Summoner can just replace their summons. Air Walk? We have teleport and overland flight over here. And greater teleport. Changestaff? How cute! Rampart? I like it - but I already have Wall of Stone. Stone Tell? Nice. I'll take my elementals. Wall of Stone? Was one of the two spells I picked up at level 10. Find the Path? I think I took Greater Teleport. Epidemic or Plague Storm? I can at least summon a Daughter of Urgathoa. So I don't think that the Druid is broken in kind in more or further reaching ways than the Summoner with their Teleports, Simulacrums, broken versions of Summon Monster, et al. (Both do horrible things to the action economy of course).

Cleric? Greater Dispel? I've not picked it up - but I can summon a Dispel at will. Create Undead? vs Simulacrum? Glyph of Warding? OK. Symbols? I'll give you that - if you can set them up. Create Demiplane Lesser? Not had time to pick that up as a spell yet. Resurrection? Another one. Greater Scrying? Got me there. So yes, there are quite a few spells (mostly defensive) that the Cleric can cast that are situation-affecting in a way a Summoner can't match. The Cleric can heal much better (remember there are summons that heal), can Scry, and create defensive structures like Symbol. The Summoner meanwhile is vastly better at getting places with Teleport (or even Greater Teleport), Phantom Steed, and possibly a Flight spell can Simulacrum and Planar Bind, can scout, can do terrible things to the action economy, and is generally at least as flexible.

So if either divine Tier 1 class (or for that matter the Witch) is Tier 1 then so too is the Summoner.

Am I missing anything big?

[brandnewb]

Your arguments sound reasonable. My big comment is that I thought Summoner was generally recognized as Tier 1. I don't comment here on Gitp much so I don't know what the general opinion on Summoner is here. That said I have always thought people tended to view summoners as T1 powerful with broken action economy.

A summoner can basically be the whole party on his own. While the wizard may have a few sweet spells up his sleeve that the summoner lacks he still needs friends. When it comes to the summoner why ever even bother including a tank in the party? summoner's Eidolon has it covered. Need healing? Ill summon a buddy to do that. And so on...

[Psyren]

A few things that come to mind:

- The most obvious difference between your summoner and the normal casters is that the other casters can just prepare the spell they need directly. For example, if a Cleric wants to have a Heal ready, he can just prep it - he does not have to summon something that can cast Heal and then command it to use its heal on an ally when it appears. This distinction particularly matters when it comes to things like readied actions and contingencies, both staples of high-level caster play.
- Yes, the equal-level Wizard/Cleric get fewer SM spells per day - but unlike you, nothing is stopping them from having more than one of their high-level summons out at a time.
- If your eidolon is out, you need to dismiss it (a standard action) before you can use your SM SLA. If your eidolon is not out before combat, chances are you are less protected than an equal-level wizard or cleric due to having a less versatile list.
- The summoner's SLA has a higher power floor (standard action, lasts longer.) However, the actual spells have a higher power ceiling due to metamagic (rods), spell specialization etc.

You're also still relying on one tool to do a variety of jobs. It is a versatile tool, but still only one tool - if that tool is kept from working (due to Dimensional Lock or Forbiddance for example), the wizard and cleric will still be T1. But you have only one major trick before you have to rely on your spell slots. Being able to break the game, but only in limited ways, is the definition of T2.

[Anlashok]

Your arguments sound reasonable. My big comment is that I thought Summoner was generally recognized as Tier 1.

Nope. Generally considered T2 because they lack some of the truly worldbreaking tricks or ability to reliably end encounters on a whim of the ninth level casters.

With a few random people insisting they're T3 because of their narrow focus, but most people just quietly laugh at them the same way you laugh at someone who thinks monks are good.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Screw the eidolon; go Master Summoner and you can spam your SLA to your heart's content.

Having ran a game with a summoner PC, I can say with confidence they are a powerhouse of a class. The player focused on the eidolon, but their spell casting is legit, and a master summoner would be even more powerful.

Aside from their SLA, they don't have the casting stamina of a full caster, similar to the problems faced by bards. I'm with the OP, though; I consider summoners tier 1, or at least on a similar platform as the sorcerer. The master summoner pushes the envelope even further, though.

[Spore]

I am going to make a longer post but I will throw in my major arguments now.

- Fixed spell list not exchangable.
- While important spells are on the list, highly specific problem solvers didn't make the list.
- Eidolon and Summons are quite limited in use per day.
- (not extended) summoning lists are actually pretty boring up to the higher levels of it.
- Planar Binding is as tricky to use because some DMs consider it broken at all times (even if used sensibly) and will invoke major costs to it

Statement: Summoner and Eidolon are actually more like TWO T3 characters with incredible synergy. The summoner on its own just sucks.

[Snowbluff]

@ Sporregg:
1) Planar Binding is for weaboos. Simulacrum is how you really get things done.:smalltongue:

More seriously, DM complaints aren't really considered in a Tier discussion. That's like saying a wizard will have his spellbook jacked every session.
2) Summon Monster at the top level can be done more often than an equivalent level caster would have spell slots of that level.

Personally, I say T2, simply by definition. In terms of power, there isn't a fine distinction in power between T1 and T2. It's just that a summoner can lose out by not picking the right spells as spells known.

[Vortenger]

Psyren and Sporeegg touched on all the major points. While a summoner can break a game, they do not have access to a wide variety of ways to do it. The DM can adjust for their limited repertoire, and that lands them in T2 by default (the very quintessence of, in fact). Probably near the top of the litter, but T2 nonetheless. (After playing a 'summoner as sorcerer' build for over a year, I feel pretty confident in that assertion.)

[Spore]

More seriously, DM complaints aren't really considered in a Tier discussion. That's like saying a wizard will have his spellbook jacked every session.


Still you play with people not with a computer with hard rules set upon very liberal spells like Planar Binding. And this spell HEAVILY varies upon DM discretion.

You could get an overpriced mercenary with supernatural abilities. Or you could get a creature able to singlehanded solve a whole plot point on its own. Personally I am just waiting for our Cleric to summon a Shadow Demon to possess our rogue BBEG and solve the entire 2 year spanning campaign in under 6 seconds.

[Snowbluff]

Still you play with people not with a computer with hard rules set upon very liberal spells like Planar Binding. And this spell HEAVILY varies upon DM discretion.

You could get an overpriced mercenary with supernatural abilities. Or you could get a creature able to singlehanded solve a whole plot point on its own. Personally I am just waiting for our Cleric to summon a Shadow Demon to possess our rogue BBEG and solve the entire 2 year spanning campaign in under 6 seconds. 1) You're confusing Binding and Ally. You don't have to pay jack for a bound critter. You don't take a penalty for not offering anything. It's the bonuses that are subject to DM adjudication, so with someone like not interested in playing ball we could just skip the roleplay.
2) It is a computer. I could say wizard are born without fingers because I think spells are overpowered. That wouldn't affect their tier, which is based on the rules and not how DMs use them. And that's just me being facetious. A vast majority of "T1" effects would shut down on similiar DM fiddlywinks.
3) Are you a player? In which case, I suggest Cthulu simulacra. Shadow Demons are easy to control, but DC 19 Will is hard to work with.

A summoner could magic jar the guy himself with a higher chance of success, too.

[Psyren]

For Binding, the DM does have agency - the "impossible or unreasonable commands" clause.

For Simulacrum - the DM chooses/makes the final determination on exactly what abilities this version of the creature gets. Furthermore, the DM must provide the rubies.

[Snowbluff]

For Binding, the DM does have agency - the "impossible or unreasonable commands" clause.

For Simulacrum - the DM chooses/makes the final determination on exactly what abilities this version of the creature gets. Furthermore, the DM must provide the rubies.Nothing says I can't lie about the obstacles it will face or the reward.

Blood money. The rules are clear on how it works. Appropriate for the level simply means a 6th level simulacrum of a wizard won't have the spells of a 12th level real wizard. A 3 HD rogue simulacrum would only have 3 ranks in hide. Monster abilities are not gated by what's appropriate, and the bare minimum you'll get something of your level in terms of the abilities. Regardless of whether or not it has it's wish SLA (a 17th level ability), a Cthulu with half HD is still an 18 HD engine of non-euclidean madness, and I still get my chuckles.

I have a suggestion for you. The Tier list is for players. It's a starting point. "How does this work, before the DM comes charging in." You should make a "Stop Having Fun List" where people aren't allowed to use forethought or creative use their abilities. Of course, don't call it that and don't do it the way I said to, but that's where this discussion would be on topic. :smalltongue:

[137beth]

There isn't really a power distinction between tier 1 and tier 2. Sorcerers have all the power of wizards. Arguably, they have even more with improved spells per day. The seperation between tiers one and two is entirely a matter of versatility, and the summoner doesn't have nearly as much going for it on that front as either the cleric or druid. Or even witch.

[Psyren]

Nothing says I can't lie about the obstacles it will face or the reward.

Certainly not, but that falls under Bluff, and there too the DM has a lever: "some lies are so improbable that it is impossible to convince anyone that they are true."

But yeah, if you somehow managed to convince a monster that something unreasonable was reasonable, that would positively affect your chances, sure.


Blood money. The rules are clear on how it works.

Indeed they are, and it won't work on a spell that takes 12 hours to cast. :smalltongue:


Regardless of whether or not it has it's wish SLA (a 17th level ability), a Cthulu with half HD is still an 18 HD engine of non-euclidean madness, and I still get my chuckles.

Well, that depends on what the "appropriate abilities of a 18-HD Cthulhu" are. Since such a being does not actually exist anywhere, it would have to be built from the ground up, and which abilities were scaled back as opposed to missing entirely would depend on the person building it, which would generally be the DM. Even if the player got to construct it, the DM would still have to approve it.



I have a suggestion for you. The Tier list is for players. It's a starting point. "How does this work, before the DM comes charging in." You should make a "Stop Having Fun List" where people aren't allowed to use forethought or creative use their abilities. Of course, don't call it that and don't do it the way I said to, but that's where this discussion would be on topic. :smalltongue:

Some spells are written with a necessity for DM input - including both of the ones you listed. That's just how they are. It's possible to have fun with both of these spells without duplicating Lovecraftian horrors or binding wish-granting entities; at least, it is for other players. If that is indeed the only way for you to have fun with such spells, then perhaps such a list may indeed be needed - for you.

[neonchameleon]

A few things that come to mind:

- The most obvious difference between your summoner and the normal casters is that the other casters can just prepare the spell they need directly. For example, if a Cleric wants to have a Heal ready, he can just prep it - he does not have to summon something that can cast Heal and then command it to use its heal on an ally when it appears. This distinction particularly matters when it comes to things like readied actions and contingencies, both staples of high-level caster play.

It's a distinction - but due to the way Summoner summoning works, it's just as fast to summon a monster that then casts a spell.


- Yes, the equal-level Wizard/Cleric get fewer SM spells per day - but unlike you, nothing is stopping them from having more than one of their high-level summons out at a time.

Depending how the Summoner is specced for spells, there's nothing preventing a Summoner having more than one SM out at the same time. Indeed if they want to really go for the heavy end of the hammer a Summoner should take Summon Monster - and a Rod of Quicken.


- If your eidolon is out, you need to dismiss it (a standard action) before you can use your SM SLA. If your eidolon is not out before combat, chances are you are less protected than an equal-level wizard or cleric due to having a less versatile list.

If your Eidolon is out and built for it having the Eidolon out should make it very difficult for the enemy to sneak up on you - an evolution point and max skill ranks in both Stealth and Perception is fairly impressive.

As for a less versatile list, slightly (other than your Summon Monster)

- The summoner's SLA has a higher power floor (standard action, lasts longer.) However, the actual spells have a higher power ceiling due to metamagic (rods), spell specialization etc.


You're also still relying on one tool to do a variety of jobs. It is a versatile tool, but still only one tool

No you aren't. Spells known by a L13 Sorceror outside their bloodline: 23. Spells known by a L13 Summoner excluding their Summon Monster: 22.


- if that tool is kept from working (due to Dimensional Lock or Forbiddance for example), the wizard and cleric will still be T1. But you have only one major trick before you have to rely on your spell slots.

No you don't. You have lots of major tricks from Summon Monster. You might as well say that Wizards have only one trick, spellcasting, and if that tool is kept from working (due to Anti Magic Field) they are stuffed. Yes, it's possible to hard-counter a Summoner - but it's equally possible to hard-counter a Wizard.

As for Dimensional Lock, that's only a soft counter. First you've left the spells. Second it's only a 20ft radius - and the range of Summoning is much further than that. If you can summon a monster outside the lock they can then charge in.


Being able to break the game, but only in limited ways, is the definition of T2.

The wizard can not break the game in more ways than they have spells. Ergo the wizard is T2.


Aside from their SLA, they don't have the casting stamina of a full caster,

This is granted. On the other hand this is not a practical limit. Summoners who focus on their SLA - either going Master Summoner or using their Eidolon as a scout or Skill-dolon have significantly more casting stamina than any ordinary full caster. They can cast a Summon Monster SLA once for each spell the full casters can cast from their top two spell levels.


similar to the problems faced by bards. I'm with the OP, though; I consider summoners tier 1, or at least on a similar platform as the sorcerer.

Sorcerer pulls ahead at level 19; the Summoner doesn't have meaningful 6th level spells.


I am going to make a longer post but I will throw in my major arguments now.

- Fixed spell list not exchangable.
- While important spells are on the list, highly specific problem solvers didn't make the list.

Does this mean you don't believe Clerics and Druids are tier 1?


- Eidolon and Summons are quite limited in use per day.

So are high level spells.


- (not extended) summoning lists are actually pretty boring up to the higher levels of it.

This I'll grant; without Summon Good Monster or the like the high point of Summon Monster is Summon Monster VII. Summon Monster IX in particular is a disappointment - and Summon Monster VII will frequently be used for multiple Summon Monster VIs or even a small horde of Summon Monster Vs. I was specific about level 13, and it wasn't just chosen for tradition.


Statement: Summoner and Eidolon are actually more like TWO T3 characters with incredible synergy. The summoner on its own just sucks.

Rebuttal: The Summoner has flexibility for two T2s on its own. It has a spell selection that can challenge the sorcerer for at least the first 15 levels of the game, and Summon Monster SLA is gamebreaking so T2.


Psyren and Sporeegg touched on all the major points. While a summoner can break a game, they do not have access to a wide variety of ways to do it. The DM can adjust for their limited repertoire, and that lands them in T2 by default (the very quintessence of, in fact). Probably near the top of the litter, but T2 nonetheless. (After playing a 'summoner as sorcerer' build for over a year, I feel pretty confident in that assertion.)

They've got a pretty big range of ways. I'd argue they have at least as many ways as either Druid, Cleric, or Witch. Does this mean the Wizard is the only T1 PF class?

[neonchameleon]

There isn't really a power distinction between tier 1 and tier 2. Sorcerers have all the power of wizards. Arguably, they have even more with improved spells per day. The seperation between tiers one and two is entirely a matter of versatility, and the summoner doesn't have nearly as much going for it on that front as either the cleric or druid. Or even witch.

What can Cleric, Druid, or Witch do that Summoner can't? Because there are a fair few things the other way (not least of which is Teleportation).

[Snowbluff]

I'm willing to bet there are things a wizard can do that a Summoner can't.


Indeed they are, and it won't work on a spell that takes 12 hours to cast. :smalltongue:
The component will be consumed when I cast the spell. There's no need to worry about it turning to blood. Rounds and actions don't exist out of combat, anyway.



Well, that depends on what the "appropriate abilities of a 18-HD Cthulhu" are. Since such a being does not actually exist anywhere, it would have to be built from the ground up, and which abilities were scaled back as opposed to missing entirely would depend on the person building it, which would generally be the DM. Even if the player got to construct it, the DM would still have to approve it. All of the abilities are scaled by it's HD innately. The game defines how many feats and skill points a being would lose from the lost HD. Everything past that is actually homebrew.


Some spells are written with a necessity for DM input - including both of the ones you listed. That's just how they are. It's possible to have fun with both of these spells without duplicating Lovecraftian horrors or binding wish-granting entities; at least, it is for other players. If that is indeed the only way for you to have fun with such spells, then perhaps such a list may indeed be needed - for you.
Additionally, the DM input isn't mandatory. This is a seventh level wizard and I just told this Babau to cast darkness are not things affected by DM input. Saying no is what is. That's what your statements are outside the realm of the RAW Assumption and therefore outside of the Tier discussion. How you rule these spells is beyond irrelevant to the topic at hand, which is why I suggested a thread were it wouldn't fall on deaf ears. Furthermore, if it were somehow relevant, it's a failure in the relative sense. All of the abilities are subject to DM tomfoolery, which is a subjective matter we can't allow into an attempt at an objective listing.

[Psyren]

@neonchameleon:

It's a distinction - but due to the way Summoner summoning works, it's just as fast to summon a monster that then casts a spell.



Depending how the Summoner is specced for spells, there's nothing preventing a Summoner having more than one SM out at the same time. Indeed if they want to really go for the heavy end of the hammer a Summoner should take Summon Monster - and a Rod of Quicken.



If your Eidolon is out and built for it having the Eidolon out should make it very difficult for the enemy to sneak up on you - an evolution point and max skill ranks in both Stealth and Perception is fairly impressive.

As for a less versatile list, slightly (other than your Summon Monster)

- The summoner's SLA has a higher power floor (standard action, lasts longer.) However, the actual spells have a higher power ceiling due to metamagic (rods), spell specialization etc.



No you aren't. Spells known by a L13 Sorceror outside their bloodline: 23. Spells known by a L13 Summoner excluding their Summon Monster: 22.



No you don't. You have lots of major tricks from Summon Monster. You might as well say that Wizards have only one trick, spellcasting, and if that tool is kept from working (due to Anti Magic Field) they are stuffed. Yes, it's possible to hard-counter a Summoner - but it's equally possible to hard-counter a Wizard.

As for Dimensional Lock, that's only a soft counter. First you've left the spells. Second it's only a 20ft radius - and the range of Summoning is much further than that. If you can summon a monster outside the lock they can then charge in.



The wizard can not break the game in more ways than they have spells. Ergo the wizard is T2.

1) It's true that it's just as fast - during your turn. But outside your turn - which is generally when readied actions and contingencies happen - the monster can do nothing when it appears. (Not that there is even a way to combine the latter with a summon SLA.)

2) "A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time."

3) Right, it's good to have the Eidolon out. But if it's out you have to get rid of it (see below.)
3a) "Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned."
3b) "The eidolon remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard action)."

4) You appeared to have quoted me on the metamagic point rather than addressing it.

5) Summoners have comparable spells known to a sorcerer, yes. But their list is not nearly as versatile and they get much fewer spells/day. They do get quite a few discounted spells though.

6) AMF is only a 10-foot radius, and requires a caster to be standing there maintaining it. Forbiddance meanwhile is a 60ft. cube per level with each casting that lasts forever. Lock has a smaller radius, but at days/level per casting, blanketing a wide area with it is easy.

7) But they have many more tools than simply relying on summons. An enchanter for instance could let you summon something and then steal it with a readied dominate before you can command it to do anything, or paralyze it with a readied hold. Best of all, it's still active, so you can't even summon anything else until you manually get rid of it yourself. An abjurer can block it out using the methods described. An illusionist can fool it, or fool you, or fascinate it so that it can't act, or a number of other tactics. An evoker can nuke both of you. A conjurer can summon two bralanis to your one etc. A necromancer already had a pile of minions out weeks before you got there, or he readied an action to panic your summon so it can't do anything but flee etc. That's what it truly means to be T1 - they have a dozen potential counters for every one tactic of yours.




The component will be consumed when I cast the spell. There's no need to worry about it turning to blood. Rounds and actions don't exist out of combat, anyway.

If your blood doesn't transform into rubies then you can't cast Simulacrum.
And if rounds don't exist, then Blood Money is nonfunctional.


All of the abilities are scaled by it's HD innately. The game defines how many feats and skill points a being would lose from the lost HD. Everything past that is actually homebrew.

My point exactly - it is homebrew. There is no such monster in any Bestiary as an 18 HD Cthulhu, so you have to homebrew one.



Additionally, the DM input isn't mandatory. This is a seventh level wizard and I just told this Babau to cast darkness are not things affected by DM input.

What do those two creatures have to do with Planar Binding and Simulacrum?

[Snowbluff]

If your blood doesn't transform into rubies then you can't cast Simulacrum.
And if rounds don't exist, then Blood Money is nonfunctional.
By the same reasoning, you can't talk.



My point exactly - it is homebrew. There is no such monster in any Bestiary as an 18 HD Cthulhu, so you have to homebrew one. Yes there is. It's called one hit with 18 permanent negative levels. It's not homebrew if it's a part of the mechanical rules. The game tell me how many HD it has, and from that we know what it's other abilities are.


What do those two creatures have to do with Planar Binding and Simulacrum?
Three guesses. :smalltongue:
One is made by a 14th level wizard casting simulacrum. The other is a bound creature being asked to perform a standard action.
This post was for your benefit. I've already pointed out how tragically irrelevant and wasteful it is.

[Psyren]

By the same reasoning, you can't talk.

How so? Rounds are mentioned in the spell text - not talking. You can use blood money with silenced spells just fine.


Yes there is. It's called one hit with 18 permanent negative levels. It's not homebrew if it's a part of the mechanical rules. The game tell me how many HD it has, and from that we know what it's other abilities are.

Nope - negative levels (even permanent ones) don't reduce HD in Pathfinder. A Cthulhu with 18 negative levels would still have 36 HD, it would merely be treated as 18 for a small subset of level-dependent effects. So an 18HD Cthulhu would not exist and must be created from scratch.

(Also, Cthulhu is immune to negative levels, so here again you're homebrewing a monster that does not exist.)



Three guesses. :smalltongue:
One is made by a 14th level wizard casting simulacrum. The other is a bound creature being asked to perform a standard action.
This post was for your benefit. I've already pointed out how tragically irrelevant and wasteful it is.

A simulacrum of a humanoid with 14 class levels is easy to adjudicate - simply use the version of that creature that existed 7 levels ago. And asking a Babau to dispel magic is certainly reasonable/possible by most metrics, since it loses nothing by doing so, though asking it to help you fight its Balor master might not be.

[Nihilarian]

I'd be more inclined to bump the sorcerer up to tier 1, honestly.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I'd be more inclined to bump the sorcerer up to tier 1, honestly.As with the summoner, they don't meet the most important requirement for tier 1 after power that can break a game: They can change how they break the game very single day. Wizards can, theoretically, know any spell in the game, so they are inherently more versatile. Human Sorcerers can know 63 plus a few more with feats/however you want to count summon monsters.

While there certainly have been some trick to run sorcerers up to tier 1 *cough* paragon surge *cough* they aren't there anymore. They're inherently limited in how many ways they can conquer a challenge, and thus what challenges they can conquer. I's important to remember that this isn't the same as saying they're less powerful than sorcerers, just that they're less versatile.

[Nihilarian]

As with the summoner, they don't meet the most important requirement for tier 1 after power that can break a game: They can change how they break the game very single day. Wizards can, theoretically, know any spell in the game, so they are inherently more versatile. Human Sorcerers can know 63 plus a few more with feats/however you want to count summon monsters.

While there certainly have been some trick to run sorcerers up to tier 1 *cough* paragon surge *cough* they aren't there anymore. They're inherently limited in how many ways they can conquer a challenge, and thus what challenges they can conquer. I's important to remember that this isn't the same as saying they're less powerful than sorcerers, just that they're less versatile.I was actually specifically thinking of the new Mongrel Mage archetype, which can change it's bloodline (including spells) on a day to day basis. Between that, Paragon Surge and the racial options that add 1 spell per level, their inclusion in tier 2 is starting to feel more and more arbitrary.

[Anlashok]

I's important to remember that this isn't the same as saying they're less powerful than sorcerers, just that they're less versatile.

The question here is when does that versatility stop mattering? Yes. Undoubtably wizards are more versatile than sorcerers, but with the incredible number of spells the sorcerer has access to that extra versatility starts to have some serious diminishing returns, to the point where the sorcerer's superior class options might actually let it start pulling ahead in Pathfinder.

Every splatbook that has good spells pushes things in the wizard's favor though.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I was actually specifically thinking of the new Mongrel Mage archetype, which can change it's bloodline (including spells) on a day to day basis. Between that, Paragon Surge and the racial options that add 1 spell per level, their inclusion in tier 2 is starting to feel more and more arbitrary.Arbitrary categories are going to be arbitrary like that, but the sorcerer is certainly pushing up against the ceiling in Pathfinder. It's certainly possible that in a non-TO game, a sorcerer could be equal or maybe greater to a wizard in actual play.Paizo has given their spontaneous 9th level casters a lot of nice things, to the point where it could be argued that Oracles broke into tier-0 territory when paragon surge was still more bonkers.

[Nihilarian]

Arbitrary categories are going to be arbitrary like that, but the sorcerer is certainly pushing up against the ceiling in Pathfinder. It's certainly possible that in a non-TO game, a sorcerer could be equal or maybe greater to a wizard in actual play.Paizo has given their spontaneous 9th level casters a lot of nice things, to the point where it could be argued that Oracles broke into tier-0 territory when paragon surge was still more bonkers.Did Paragon Surge get nerfed? I must have missed it.

[Anlashok]

Did Paragon Surge get nerfed? I must have missed it.

Sort of. Paizo released some non-errata errata that states that if you take a feat with Paragon Surge that has multiple options within that feat (so extra arcana, weapon focus, skill focus), you're locked into your first selection forever.

[grarrrg]

No you aren't. Spells known by a L13 Sorceror outside their bloodline: 23. Spells known by a L13 Summoner excluding their Summon Monster: 22.

Both classes may 'know' similar numbers of spells, but what about _selection_?
Spells _available_ to a L13 Sorcerer: 800+
Spells _available_ to a L13 Summoner: 220+
(based on the last time I downloaded the Spells Database from the SRD).

Sorcerers get to choose from around 4 times as many spells as the Summoner can. Yes, many of those spells are likely crap, but there are more than enough decent ones, especially if you are a Sorcerer.


The wizard can not break the game in more ways than they have spells. Ergo the wizard is T2.

The Wizard can know every (wizard list) spell ever, and can break the game with different spells every day.

The Summoner knows a few dozen spells, but is stuck with the same spells every day.


Sort of. Paizo released some non-errata errata...
With the way PF handles things, FAQ's are essentially Errata.

[andreww]

Sort of. Paizo released some non-errata errata that states that if you take a feat with Paragon Surge that has multiple options within that feat (so extra arcana, weapon focus, skill focus), you're locked into your first selection forever.
Not forever, just for that day. That's a rather large difference.

Also the PF sorcerer still has Razmiran Priest for fairly easy access to Tier1 given it gives them access to virtually the entire cleric/druid/paladin/inquisitor/shaman/antipaladin list.

[Snowbluff]

Not forever, just for that day. That's a rather large difference.

Also the PF sorcerer still has Razmiran Priest for fairly easy access to Tier1 given it gives them access to virtually the entire cleric/druid/paladin/inquisitor/shaman/antipaladin list.

I concur. I would have sorc listed as T1 with an addendum like how Binder's T2 entry is.

[Nihilarian]

So Paragon Surge, Mongrel Mage and Razmiran Priest are all options that get the sorcerer to tier 1, and the human favored class bonus... doesn't quite make it, but certainly helps. The question is: how many exceptions until it's easier just to bump sorcerer up a tier?

[Squirrel_Dude]

So Paragon Surge, Mongrel Mage and Razmiran Priest are all options that get the sorcerer to tier 1, and the human favored class bonus... doesn't quite make it, but certainly helps. The question is: how many exceptions until it's easier just to bump sorcerer up a tier?2 isn't quite enough. Paragon Surge, even if it came back to it's more bonkers state, will always be a unique situation that requires an exception because it's such TO cheese isn't available for 1/4 of character levels.

Razmiran Priest is somewhat similar: It takes until level 9 to get his special ability, and I'm still not convinced it's that great. It certainly makes the UMD check easier, but it's not allowing the sorcerer to do anything he couldn't already do. If you pump your UMD score up high enough, you can achieve the same results, and you don't have to expend (mostly pointless level 1 spells) to do it.

Mongrel Mage is a very solid class, and I can see why it would push the class to tier 1, but once you start bringing up archetypes things get really weird. Do we only count the archetypes that make a class stronger? Would the bad archetypes outweigh/drag down the good one? If we rank archetypes separately, would the Master Summoner sit on a different tier than the summoner which would sit on a different tier than the Synthesist Summoner (a troublesome but ultimately less powerful archetype)?

Currently the answer to the last question is "yes." While it can means that a class has many different exceptions/entries on the tier list, it's easier than trying to weigh every single archetype as part of a class.

[andreww]

Razmiran Priest is somewhat similar: It takes until level 9 to get his special ability, and I'm still not convinced it's that great. It certainly makes the UMD check easier, but it's not allowing the sorcerer to do anything he couldn't already do. If you pump your UMD score up high enough, you can achieve the same results, and you don't have to expend (mostly pointless level 1 spells) to do it.
Razmiran Priest remains amazing. Sure UMD'ing divine scrolls is something you can do anyway but not expending those scrolls makes a huge difference. A level 4 scroll of freedom of movement is 700gp per use. The Razmiran Priest pays that once, the UMD sorcerer pays it potentially every time he encounters something with a real risk of grappling you. It will save you huge amounts of money in the long run and gives masses of flexibility.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Razmiran Priest remains amazing. Sure UMD'ing divine scrolls is something you can do anyway but not expending those scrolls makes a huge difference. A level 4 scroll of freedom of movement is 700gp per use. The Razmiran Priest pays that once, the UMD sorcerer pays it potentially every time he encounters something with a real risk of grappling you. It will save you huge amounts of money in the long run and gives masses of flexibility.I forgot the part about not expending charges, as that makes adding items much more akin to adding spells known.

I'm not sure it will save you a ton of money, though. It will certainly save you trips to the local magic store, major religious center, crafting time or whatever, but I was under the impression that consumable items don't continue to count against your WPL once you use expend them.

[137beth]

Don't forget about the arcane bloodline sorcerer with access to robe of arcane heritage, who learns every spell by repeatedly donning and removing their RoAH:smalltongue:

[andreww]

Don't forget about the arcane bloodline sorcerer with access to robe of arcane heritage, who learns every spell by repeatedly donning and removing their RoAH:smalltongue:
Pretty sure that doesn't work. As soon as you take off the robe then you lose access to the New Arcana level which is giving you access to the spell and therefore lose it.

You can use this trick to have access to different spells each time you put it on but you eventually level out of being able to do I.

[Psyren]

Mongrel Mage is a very solid class, and I can see why it would push the class to tier 1, but once you start bringing up archetypes things get really weird. Do we only count the archetypes that make a class stronger? Would the bad archetypes outweigh/drag down the good one? If we rank archetypes separately, would the Master Summoner sit on a different tier than the summoner which would sit on a different tier than the Synthesist Summoner (a troublesome but ultimately less powerful archetype)?

Currently the answer to the last question is "yes." While it can means that a class has many different exceptions/entries on the tier list, it's easier than trying to weigh every single archetype as part of a class.

Archetypes are indeed ranked separately, just like ACFs were in the original tier list. (E.g. Mystic Ranger and Wildshape Ranger were ranked separately from the original.)

[neonchameleon]

@psyren
2) "A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time."[/quote]

"In this way". A Summoner can not have more than one Summon Monster SLA active at one time. This does not mean you can not cast Summon Monster as a spell however many times you have spell slots to cast it.


5) Summoners have comparable spells known to a sorcerer, yes. But their list is not nearly as versatile and they get much fewer spells/day. They do get quite a few discounted spells though.

They get most of the best spells discounted tbh. And this was the point about metamagic rods - Summoners make better use of them than Sorcerers for obvious reasons.


7) But they have many more tools than simply relying on summons.

Yes they do. A Summoner who simply relies on summons is tier 2. A Summoner who realises that they are also close to a sorcerer in magical ability is a whole different kettle of fish.

As for your counters? the entertaining thing is that most of them don't work. And the rest of them require you to play a game of paper-scissors-stone where you have to write down your decision on a piece of paper in advance. If the summoner wins initiative readied actions are a problem. And if the summoner summons multiple creatures most of your suggestions get crushed by the action economy.


An enchanter for instance could let you summon something and then steal it with a readied dominate before you can command it to do anything, or paralyze it with a readied hold.

And get laughed at. They've actually lost out on the action economy, taking one of your summons away, while the other d3 or even d4+1 tear them a new one.


Best of all, it's still active, so you can't even summon anything else until you manually get rid of it yourself.

Mmm... nope. "If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends." So they lost out heavily.


An illusionist can fool it, or fool you, or fascinate it so that it can't act, or a number of other tactics.

That depends how they do it. If you know you're going up against an illusionist, you bring out the monsters with tremor sense - and multiple ones so you can check the illusions.


An evoker can nuke both of you.

And you can nuke the Evoker unless they are lightning immune. Except that you are spread out, and if the contingency is set up to return fire all that will happen is that they've nuked one of your d4+2 Bralani Azata. The rest nuke the Evoker. Goodbye.


A conjurer can summon two bralanis to your one etc.

How? A conjurer's summons last twice as long (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/conjuration) They don't get twice as many.


A necromancer already had a pile of minions out weeks before you got there, or he readied an action to panic your summon so it can't do anything but flee etc.

The pile of minions that are already created? How are you going to control them? The panic? What spell are you using? Fear in its piddly 30' cone? Again, your readied action gets one of my summons. That's not going to be enough.


That's what it truly means to be T1 - they have a dozen potential counters for every one tactic of yours.

So T1 means that you have a bag of tricks, half of which don't work and the rest of which can be countered by a Summoner - other than having an entire mob of undead (and even then the Summoner breaks out the magic circle summons). Riiiight. When even your dojo tricks don't work you're in trouble. And Summon Monster is a very good soft counter for a vast array of tricks.




Both classes may 'know' similar numbers of spells, but what about _selection_?
Spells _available_ to a L13 Sorcerer: 800+
Spells _available_ to a L13 Summoner: 220+
(based on the last time I downloaded the Spells Database from the SRD).

Sorcerers get to choose from around 4 times as many spells as the Summoner can. Yes, many of those spells are likely crap, but there are more than enough decent ones, especially if you are a Sorcerer.

There are actually more than enough decent ones for the Summoner. If you look at the Summoner's list, it contains most of the best Sorcerer spells, and discounted at that.

[Psyren]

@psyren
"In this way". A Summoner can not have more than one Summon Monster SLA active at one time. This does not mean you can not cast Summon Monster as a spell however many times you have spell slots to cast it.

Right, but your OP was talking about the advantages of the SLA. If you go down to the spell, you're no better off than the wizard and sorcerer are (actually you're worse off, because yours only goes up to SM8 and you are on a slower progression than the wizard), plus you're wasting precious spells known on something you already get free as an SLA, and you have fewer spells/day than the sorcerer or the specialist wizard get.



They get most of the best spells discounted tbh. And this was the point about metamagic rods - Summoners make better use of them than Sorcerers for obvious reasons.

But you can't use metamagic rods with your SLA, which means you're using the spell and the points above apply.



And get laughed at. They've actually lost out on the action economy, taking one of your summons away, while the other d3 or even d4+1 tear them a new one.

If you're summoning d3 or d4+1, you've dropped down to lower-than-maximum summons, which are basically cannon fodder. Assuming they even pose a threat, nearly any AoE would do the trick.


Mmm... nope. "If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends." So they lost out heavily.

Point, you can end it by summoning something else once your turn rolls around again. Of course, depending on the effect they use, they can hit both you and your summons all at once, thus putting the attrition game squarely in their favor. For example, Waves of Exhaustion as a 60ft. cone is very likely to hit everything you summon + you with one casting, rendering you much more vulnerable to a follow-up attack.


And you can nuke the Evoker unless they are lightning immune. Except that you are spread out, and if the contingency is set up to return fire all that will happen is that they've nuked one of your d4+2 Bralani Azata. The rest nuke the Evoker. Goodbye.

Oh noes, 7d6 lightning! At these levels, resist energy is blocking 30 points, which means that on average ALL of your Bralani combined are doing... zero. And that is just one of his spells.


That depends how they do it. If you know you're going up against an illusionist, you bring out the monsters with tremor sense - and multiple ones so you can check the illusions.

Er, which monsters have both helpful spells/SLAs and tremorsense? Bralani certainly don't.


How? A conjurer's summons last twice as long (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/conjuration) They don't get twice as many.

Quicken Rod + Acadamae Graduate = 2 summons per turn to your one.


Yes they do. A Summoner who simply relies on summons is tier 2. A Summoner who realises that they are also close to a sorcerer in magical ability is a whole different kettle of fish.

As for your counters? the entertaining thing is that most of them don't work. And the rest of them require you to play a game of paper-scissors-stone where you have to write down your decision on a piece of paper in advance. If the summoner wins initiative readied actions are a problem. And if the summoner summons multiple creatures most of your suggestions get crushed by the action economy.
...
So T1 means that you have a bag of tricks, half of which don't work and the rest of which can be countered by a Summoner-

Which ones don't work? Elaborate. You haven't said anything to stop the Forbiddance or DL for instance. For the single-target summons they have a bunch of counters, and for the multi-summons you're summoning creatures so weak they can either be swept away or outright ignored, plus there are AoE spells to counter those too. (Enchanters for instance, rather than using dominate or hold, can use spells like Deep Slumber, Confusion, Waves of Ecstasy/Exhaustion/etc., and that's assuming they don't just blast or dismiss them.

[neonchameleon]

Right, but your OP was talking about the advantages of the SLA. If you go down to the spell, you're no better off than the wizard and sorcerer are (actually you're worse off, because yours only goes up to SM8 and you are on a slower progression than the wizard), plus you're wasting precious spells known on something you already get free as an SLA, and you have fewer spells/day than the sorcerer or the specialist wizard get.

If you go to the spell you bounce between getting the new SLA when the wizard does and when the sorcerer does for the first 16 levels. Sorcerers only fall behind the curve when 9th level spells come into play. Classic definition for the tiers is at level 13.

Yes, Summoners are weaker than Sorcerers at levels 19 and 20. This I do not dispute. It is also irrelevant to normal play and to tier listings.


But you can't use metamagic rods with your SLA, which means you're using the spell and the points above apply.

And this is one of the many places you fall down in your analysis. You can't use metamagic rods with your SLA - but you have two separate summoning abilities. Once again you are not taking this into account.


If you're summoning d3 or d4+1, you've dropped down to lower-than-maximum summons, which are basically cannon fodder. Assuming they even pose a threat, nearly any AoE would do the trick.

Umm... nope. Have you ever seen mid-level summons in play by a skilled player? An Augmented (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/augment-summoning---final) Celestial (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/celestial-creature-cr-special) Dire Tiger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/cat-great/tiger/dire-tiger) (Summon Monster 6) has over 130 hit points, DR10/Evil, and Resist 15 vs Cold, Acid, and Electricity. Claiming that that d3+1 of them are canon fodder that can be taken out by nearly any AoE is risible. Chain Lightning (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/chain-lightning) cast by a 20th level caster would do one of them an average of just over half their hit points (assuming it wasn't electrical damage) and the rest half of that. Yes, specialist evokers are better at evocation than that. And 5 attacks at +20 to hit with a static modifier of +24 to damage when smiting is hardly an attack from cannon fodder.

For how much cannon fodder it isn't, the first dragon I found of about the right size was the Adult blue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon/chromatic-blue/adult-blue-dragon) at CR 13. DR 5/Magic, hit on 8s, and grappled on 11s by any of the first three attacks. Unless the dragon starts on the wing it's in a whole lot of trouble. (If it starts on the wing you use something else - unlike the wizard you choose when you cast the spell).

Even if you're going for d4+2 monsters they can still be pretty threatening. Same level 13 dragon. This time we're using Augumented Celestial Ankylosauri (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/dinosaur/ankylosaurus). The thing to remember about the Ankylosaurus is that when augmented it has a DC25 Daze attached to its tail. Which means its AoOs are a work of pure evil and it's a pretty good save or suck attack (in addition to 3d6+25 damage when smiting, 95 hp and DR 5/Evil). Two of them are going to shut down the dragon fairly well - especially as it is extremely unlikely to one-round one of them in melee. And the dragon (large, high natural armour, physically imposing) is the sort of thing you don't want to send an Ankylosaurus against - it's more for wizard smashing.


Point, you can end it by summoning something else once your turn rolls around again. Of course, depending on the effect they use, they can hit both you and your summons all at once, thus putting the attrition game squarely in their favor. For example, Waves of Exhaustion as a 60ft. cone is very likely to hit everything you summon + you with one casting, rendering you much more vulnerable to a follow-up attack.

This assumes that the summoner is a complete idiot. Waves of Exhaustion is a 60ft cone. Summon Monster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-monster) is short ranged - 25ft + 5ft/2 levels - or 60ft at 14th level. What this means is that for a level 14 spellcaster if I'm in range of their waves of exhaustion then they are in range to have me flank them with two summoned monsters when I summon. So I'm to the south, and I've cast a monster to the east of them and a monster to the west. Are they going to cast the Waves of Exhaustion in which direction exactly? Either it's exhausted me and has two summoned monsters in its face or it has two monsters in its face, one exhausted, and I'm fine and that guy isn't.


Oh noes, 7d6 lightning! At these levels, resist energy is blocking 30 points, which means that on average ALL of your Bralani combined are doing... zero. And that is just one of his spells.

Do you have it up? 10 minutes/level on the offchance I'm going to use this particular monster. Rather than that I'm going to pick any one of the dozen or so other good options. You're playing a white room game here against one throwaway option. And one almost always used to clear out chaff at that.


Er, which monsters have both helpful spells/SLAs and tremorsense? Bralani certainly don't.

Tremorsense - Earth Elementals and co. I don't need both. I just need one to get through your illusions and turn your caster into a squishy paste.


Quicken Rod + Acadamae Graduate = 2 summons per turn to your one.

=2 summons per turn to my two - if I use a summon spell and a (cheaper) Quicken rod of my own. Or if I think you've just used about half your best spells up I dimension door away and go hunting you again.


Which ones don't work? Elaborate. You haven't said anything to stop the Forbiddance or DL for instance. For the single-target summons they have a bunch of counters, and for the multi-summons you're summoning creatures so weak they can either be swept away or outright ignored, plus there are AoE spells to counter those too. (Enchanters for instance, rather than using dominate or hold, can use spells like Deep Slumber, Confusion, Waves of Ecstasy/Exhaustion/etc., and that's assuming they don't just blast or dismiss them.

Every single wizard counter except a divine spell that costs 1500GP and is out of reach of Limited Wish as it's 6th level (Forbiddance) or spamming an 8th level spell (Dimensional Lock) and fighting on home territory, and the skeleton army you've tried has either assumed a stupid summoner or failed miserably and I've shown how. Deep Slumber? Mainline combat summon monster 3 multiples are Earth Elementals. Confusion only works as long as you don't mind hitting your allies - I am always always going to summon monsters into places that make your life awkward. Dismissal - if I'm in the mood for d3+1 monsters I'm going to laugh at you. You've used your action to have a decent chance of undoing a third of mine. Counterspelling or reactive dispelling is better. At least your action can possibly be traded for mine - but the best you can do is break even in the action economy. You are making a grave mistake in your calculations when you assume that a DC 25 Stun (as for the Ankylosaurus at Summon Monster V) can be ignored under any circumstance except you having an AC in the 30s or you being really big. And how are you planning on blasting your way through 95 hit points with resistances and DR negligently?