Once again, Kobolds prove they are greater then us...

[Rijan_Sai]

While doing some...*ahem*..."acedemic" research into melee weapons that do d2 damage, I came upon a realization:

Kobolds get Slight Build (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), which means that they can wield Tiny weapons without penalty.

A Tiny Kukri, based on the Wepon Size and Damage chart (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize), would seem to do 1d2 damage.

Using this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18045621&postcount=11) build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18047645&postcount=20) concept, (without DoD and size increases) taking 2-3 Fighter levels for feats, and a level or two of Cleric (or have a friendly one willing to cast healing spells on you, *coughCohortcough*) along with enough Crusader/RKV levels to get IL 15 (Bloodlines may be of help here,) you have a creepy little lizard making a great mulitude of attacks for NI damage...every round. (And since Imbued Healing has a duration of 1 minute per spell level, there should be plenty enough time to do all the mass damage you want.)

I realize this may not be new, but I've never seen anyone talking about the Kolbod Overlords in connection with D2 Crusader before.

Anyway...just my random thought for the day!

[Zombulian]

Yup. That idea has been around for a while. Not necessarily with Kobolds though. The one I know is called The Spoon Crusader... cuz he hits things with a spoon.

[Zaq]

Personally, I like a halfling (or other Small race) using a whip, doing NI subdual damage. He doesn't kill anyone, but they'll never, ever wake up on their own.

[Ellowryn]

Personally, I like a halfling (or other Small race) using a whip, doing NI subdual damage. He doesn't kill anyone, but they'll never, ever wake up on their own.

Wasn't there a rule somewhere that if you took twice your maximum hit points in subdual damage you still died? Cause you can beat someone to death with a sap, it just takes a bit.

[Sith_Happens]

Wasn't there a rule somewhere that if you took twice your maximum hit points in subdual damage you still died? Cause you can beat someone to death with a sap, it just takes a bit.

Nope. Gets really funny when you notice that starvation and thirst only ever deal nonlethal damage.

[Waddacku]

In Pathfinder, nonlethal damage in excess of your maximum HP (not current) is treated as lethal damage (unless you have regeneration). So taking a further max HP nonlethal beating will put you at 0 HP for real.

[WhamBamSam]

I like the glorious kobold master race as much as anyone, but this doesn't seem like a huge point in the favor of their use for d2 crusaders. Their ability to take epic feats is a pretty big deal though. Distant Shot+Bloodstorm Blade+d2 crusader chicanery can mean infinite damage to everything to which you have line of sight if you can fit all the feats in.

My personal favorite d2 crusader, though, is a Mercury Dragon using Great Flyby Attack or Paimon's Dance of Death to deal infinite damage to every enemy along a 200ft flight path with a bite attack reduced to d2 damage with the spell Blunt Natural Weapons.

[Extra Anchovies]

Where exactly in the rules does Dragonwrought (or being Dragon type) allow for epic feats? I believe that it's true, but don't know which rules allow it...

[WeaselGuy]

Where exactly in the rules does Dragonwrought (or being Dragon type) allow for epic feats? I believe that it's true, but don't know which rules allow it...

edit: quote from Draconomicon - pg 66: Epic Feats: These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels.

since Dragonwrought allows kobolds to be considered as true dragons, thus negating the negative side effects of advanced age, kobolds can start out as venerable, technically "a dragon of at least old age"

edit: they aren't true dragons, but it doesn't matter for this purpose, as i'v already said a little further down...

[KingSmitty]

This makes it even easier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=11744061&postcount=9)

theres a reason i saved that post, i can never remember myself where to find it

[Pan151]

since Dragonwrought allows kobolds to be considered as true dragons

Which is extremely debatable, last that I checked...

[WhamBamSam]

edit: quote from Draconomicon - pg 66: Epic Feats: These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels.

since Dragonwrought allows kobolds to be considered as true dragons, thus negating the negative side effects of advanced age, kobolds can start out as venerable, technically "a dragon of at least old age"It doesn't say anything about true dragons. It says "a dragon of at least old age." Dragonwrought Kobolds' ability to ignore ability score penalties for aging is also unrelated to being a true dragon. It's printed plain as day beneath the kobold aging table on page 39 of Races of the Dragon.

The true dragon argument matters only for a very small number of (admittedly very good) things. The majority of Dragonwrought Kobold cheese either comes from direct statements about the race, direct statements about the feat, or from being a dragon (true or otherwise).

[WeaselGuy]

It doesn't say anything about true dragons. It says "a dragon of at least old age." Dragonwrought Kobolds' ability to ignore ability score penalties for aging is also unrelated to being a true dragon. It's printed plain as day beneath the kobold aging table on page 39 of Races of the Dragon.

The true dragon argument matters only for a very small number of (admittedly very good) things. The majority of Dragonwrought Kobold cheese either comes from direct statements about the race, direct statements about the feat, or from being a dragon (true or otherwise).


( Races of the Dragon, p. 100)

[General]

You were born a dragonwrought kobold, proof of your race's innate connection to dragons.
Prerequisite
1st level only, Kobold,
Benefit
You are a dragon wrought kobold. Your type is dragon rather than humanoid, and you lose the dragonblood subtype. You retain all your other subtypes and your kobold racial traits. Your scales become tinted with a color that matches that of your draconic heritage. As a dragon, you are immune to magic sleep and paralysis effects. You have darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. You gain a +2 racial bonus on the skill indicated for your draconic heritage on the table on page 103.
Special
Unlike most feats, this feat must be taken at 1st level, during character creation. Having this feat allows you to take the Dragon Wings feat at 3rd level.

Ok, so it doesn't say you're a true dragon. But it does say that your type is dragon, which, unless I am mistaken, means that if you are at least old age, then you are a dragon of old age, qualifying for epic feats by the ruling in Draconomicon. Which actually doesn't matter if you are true or not, and my earlier post had an error anyways.

[Erik Vale]

edit: quote from Draconomicon - pg 66: Epic Feats: These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels.

since Dragonwrought allows kobolds to be considered as true dragons, thus negating the negative side effects of advanced age, kobolds can start out as venerable, technically "a dragon of at least old age"

No, they aren't treated as true dragons.

However the listing that gives dragons epic feats [the top bit] allows all dragons, not just true.

[KingSmitty]

whether or not it is allowed by RAW aside, what epic feats would you choose?

also, are there any tasty feats you can get with the dragon type as a prereq?

for instance, how can i get a breath weapon without having to take Draconic Heritage + Draconic Breath? the races of the dragon version of Draconic Heritage gives you the dragonblood subtype, where the complete arcane does not.. I'd say in RotD dragonwraught removes the subtype and draconic heritage brings it back, is strange.

[WhamBamSam]

I'm actually pretty strongly on the side of the argument that says Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons. It just bears pointing out that a lot of kobold cheese is completely unambiguous, and doesn't rely on that interpretation.


whether or not it is allowed by RAW aside, what epic feats would you choose?

also, are there any tasty feats you can get with the dragon type as a prereq?

for instance, how can i get a breath weapon without having to take Draconic Heritage + Draconic Breath? the races of the dragon version of Draconic Heritage gives you the dragonblood subtype, where the complete arcane does not.. I'd say in RotD dragonwraught removes the subtype and draconic heritage brings it back, is strange.A lot of Epic Feats have skill prereqs that prevent you from getting them without some means of breaking the skill cap (say Inspire Greatness+Psychic Reformation or the cheesy bloodline interpretation), but there are a few good ones.

Epic Toughness can be a particularly abusive option at low levels.

Infinite Deflection and Exceptional Deflection together let you just swat ranged projectiles and ray spells away, which is a solid defensive option. Throw on Reflect Arrows and you can send them back at the attacker.

Distant Shot is fun, and the listen prereq can be met by level 17 (so in time for your level 18 feat) though it makes for a feat intensive build.

Improved Combat Reflexes+Evasive Reflexes+Thicket of Blades+a buddy running the same combo is infinite movement. Tornado Throw windup, anyone?

There are a number of others besides these which are good for various things.



The dragon type is actually a great tool for qualification, thanks to this little nugget of bad writing in Races of the Dragon.
Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers or spells that require the dragonblood subtype.


As for breath weapons, Draconic Breath really isn't worth the spell slots it uses up. The Metabolic Fire graft in RotD will give you a 6d8 breath weapon of any energy type, but it's expensive. There are several ways to get breath weapons through class levels, and a few spells and things that'll give you one temporarily (I'm fond of Palarandusk's Fire Breath). I've gone into it in some detail in the Handbook in my sig, though I think that breath blasting is one of the few things that you can actually do better with other dragons than with kobolds.

[Ruethgar]

Kobolds are true dragons by technicality since Races of the Dragon has the complete and most updated list of true dragons "published to date" it does not technically include Races of the Dragons itself as it was not published at the time of the creation of that rule. However, if your DM doesn't go by such a strict RAW ruling(an entirely logical choice), Kobolds would indeed not be True Dragons as RotD overrides previous classifications of true dragons, also note that pretty much all Dragon Magazine Dragons lose their true status with RotD(Purple, Orange, Yellow, Tome, and Hex).