OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Oko and Qailee]

This durkon stuff is gonna make me cry :(

[Mando Knight]

So, will Durkon be able to outwit the vampiric usurper using his superior ability to observe connections in behavior? Stay tuned!

[CoffeeIncluded]

New comic AND the Korra season 4 trailer! Today's pretty awesome!

And the evil spirit's incapable of seeing the connection...oh, this is gonna be good.

[Yana]

Would someone be so kind as to elaborate as to what that connection is?

[OnlineDM]

Little Durkon is so cute!

And Yana, I believe it's about the "When should I wait until being asked to help versus jumping right in."

[Silva Stormrage]

Would someone be so kind as to elaborate as to what that connection is?

Durkon got into the habit of wanting to help but not wanting to interfere and mess with others when he is helping.

In the childhood memory he tries to help without asking and he makes things worse

In the more recent memory he instead just assumes that Roy doesn't need help unless he explicitly asks for it

[Oko and Qailee]

In the first story Durkon was too eager to help and later on he couldn't figure out he was supposed to help

[Leviting]

Well if it count for anything, it took me about ten seconds to make the connection too. What's interesting is how Ms. Thundershield hosted many dinner parties, yet was too poor to buy new dishes, and measured her wealth in coppers.

[Oko and Qailee]

It's odd that Durkula can't make obvious logical connections between the two events though

[Keltest]

There is now officially a plan. I like that.

[ThePhantom]

Hehe, Durkon may be mostly unable to act, but he can still annoy his unwanted guest with Dwarf humor. :smallbiggrin:

Also, we have his middle name, I think that's a first.

[Twelvetrees]

This looks good. What the heck does Durkon think is so good, though?

[Kefkafreak]

This looks good. What the heck does Durkon think is so good, though?

That the rest of the party will notice something's wrong with him when he helps them without asking?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I love seeing his memories.

I honestly bought the connection Durkon gave at first. :smallredface:

[Gnoman]

Well if it count for anything, it took me about ten seconds to make the connection too. What's interesting is how Ms. Thundershield hosted many dinner parties, yet was too poor to buy new dishes, and measured her wealth in coppers.

With a missing arm, her labor options are probably very limited. I'd be inclined to suspect that she's living under a fixed income provided in thanks of whatever cost her the arm in the first place.

[Bad Wolf]

What's the smokey thing in the last panel?

[Burner28]

Talk about painful puns! Elan, eat your heart out!:smalltongue:

On a different note, it's great to see further insight into Durkon's character.

Also, Allotrope is his middle name? Hmmm, interesting.

[Lkctgo]

I wonder what the HPOH is asking Durkon to show to generate these memories. Also, I'm a little confused with Durkon's endgame here.

[Steveio]

This looks good. What the heck does Durkon think is so good, though?

HPoH seemingly can't determine the emotional connection between Durkon's memories. To hazard a guess, I'd say Durkon plans on giving incorrect information to his bloodsucking parasite by playing off of this.

Or he plans on being as obnoxious as possible to the HPoH. Either way, it's going to be great.

[NerdyKris]

Well if it count for anything, it took me about ten seconds to make the connection too. What's interesting is how Ms. Thundershield hosted many dinner parties, yet was too poor to buy new dishes, and measured her wealth in coppers.

Potluck dinners. She might be hosting, but it's entirely possible and likely that the family and friends are providing the food for her to cook or contributing in some way.



What's the smokey thing in the last panel?

The airship with the damaged engine.

[gornt]

I don't get the emphasis on something in the last panel

[DaggerPen]

1. Oh hey, first person perspective! I wasn't expecting to get any of that, but it looks really cool here.

Also, no wonder Durkon's so passive in battle usually. Possibly a little on the nose here, but it's still a really great development for him.

Finally, it's really interesting to note that the HPOH clearly doesn't understand, well, people. Sure looks like Durkon will be able to play that to his advantage... this will be fun.

[Martok]

I completely cracked up at Durkon's middle name being "Allotrope". Too funny!





I don't get the emphasis on something in the last panel
The short version: Durkon has figured out that if he feeds the right memories to Durkula, he can trick him into behaving in ways Durkon normally wouldn't, thus alerting the Order to there being something amiss with their pal.

As a bonus, he can also annoy the crap out of Durkula in the process. :smallbiggrin:

[Zarzar]

I'm still thinking that Durkon's only real plan is to give partial memories about important events that would mess with Durkula's understanding of things, which would lead someone to acknowledge the memory gap and put 1 and 1 together.


My bet is with the reunion with Hilgaya in the dwarven lands. If Durkon only gives Durkula the intimacy memory without the moral high ground afterglow, Hilgaya will pick up on it immediately. And who else to know about undead abominations than a cleric? (Bonus points if she's high enough level to cast resurrection).

[Bird]

That devious look from Durkon made me very happy.

Love the pretty panel of the Mechane at the end, too.


Also, Allotrope is his middle name? Hmmm, interesting.
It is interesting. I recalled that allotropes had something to do with diamonds--which fits thematically for dwarves--but had to look it up for more information:


Allotropy or allotropism (from Greek ἄλλος (allos), meaning "other", and τρόπος (tropos), meaning "manner, form") is the property of some chemical elements to exist in two or more different forms, known as allotropes of these elements. Allotropes are different structural modifications of an element;[1] the atoms of the element are bonded together in a different manner. For example, the allotropes of carbon include diamond (where the carbon atoms are bonded together in a tetrahedral lattice arrangement), graphite (where the carbon atoms are bonded together in sheets of a hexagonal lattice), graphene (single sheets of graphite), and fullerenes (where the carbon atoms are bonded together in spherical, tubular, or ellipsoidal formations).
Any thoughts on why this fits for Durkon? Or was it just picked because it's a humorously technical geological/chemical term?

[DaggerPen]

I don't get the emphasis on something in the last panel

I think it's just the usual "pull back for reflection" panel signifying the end of a sequence. My bet, we'll catch up with Team Evil next update, or at least skip ahead to Tinkertown.

[Starknight62040]

Awesome. I love the early look at Roy and Durkon.

[Kish]

It's odd that Durkula can't make obvious logical connections between the two events though


This looks good. What the heck does Durkon think is so good, though?
The High Priest of Hel's inability to draw obvious connections.

[tomandtish]

Alternate title: Chaotic Kermit

[Ron Miel]

More dwarf wit....

Durkon and Roy pulled the corpse to the village. So, basically it was toad away?


d+r

[Jaxzan Proditor]

My bet, we'll catch up with Team Evil next update

Really hope it's this one.

[grandpheonix]

Holy wisdom modifier batman!

No really tthough. Durkula doesnt have high wisdom apparently. Durkon on the other hand...

[ORione]

Would someone be so kind as to elaborate as to what that connection is?

In the first memory, Sigdi tells Durkon that he should ask people if they want help instead of jumping in.

In the second memory, Durkon asks Roy if he wants help instead of jumping in.

[Oko and Qailee]

The High Priest of Hel's inability to draw obvious connections.

Man, why'd you quote me, now I seem like a total jerk.

Not too far from the truth, but still.

[oppyu]

I still loathe not-Durkon with a burning fury of a thousand planets of pure burning fury.

It's nice to see Durkon getting some backstory. But wow, I hate not-Durkon so much.

[Coppertop]

I enjoy his middle name.

Being both a bit of a geological pun, and joking about the vampirism

(Allotropes being different expressions of the same element. Both Durkon and HPoH are priests of dwarven Gods expressed very differently) If it means something else, so much the better :smallbiggrin:

[Raphite1]

In before people start complaining about the inconsistency in the HPoH's pronunciation of "something," despite Rich holding our hands and making sure it's clear it was an intentional clue by giving a counter example within the same comic and having Durkon call it out.

I can't wait to get more details of Durkon's plan!

Edit: My first thought was that Durkon hoped that the HPoH's failure to mimic his "always ask before getting involved" behavior could lead to Roy discovering his identity, which is why Durkon decided not to explain the real connection between the memories. I also thought the HPoH's "somethin'" pronunciation was a sign that Durkon's memories were changing the HPoH subtly, but that is seemingly inconsistency with Durkon's hopes of the HPoH accidentally revealing itself, Durkon clearly noticed the change and seemed happy about it. Hmm.

[Rodin]

Any thoughts on why this fits for Durkon? Or was it just picked because it's a humorously technical geological/chemical term?

Well, he's currently existing in two different forms - Durkula, and Durkon.

Also a neat connection: When Durkon saw Belkar getting eaten, he immediately jumped in and helped without asking if Belkar needed help.

[CrispyCriminal]

Leave it to a dark servant of a goddess of death to lack the ability to recognize his vessel's own social strictures.

The ones that aren't based on religion anyways, I'm sure Followers of Thor are quite straight forward with their beliefs instead of dancing around it with their tongues like the priests of Loki.

[SaintRidley]

Is it wrong to be very much amused by the fact that in order to understand what this strip means you need to possess the skill the High Priest of Hel lacks?

[DaggerPen]

In before people start complaining about the inconsistency in the HPoH's pronunciation of "something," despite Rich holding our hands and making sure it's clear it was an intentional clue by giving a counter example within the same comic and having Durkon call it out.

I can't wait to get more details of Durkon's plan!

Edit: My first thought was that Durkon hoped that the HPoH's failure to mimic his "always ask before getting involved" behavior could lead to Roy discovering his identity, which is why Durkon decided not to explain the real connection between the memories. I also thought the HPoH's "somethin'" pronunciation was a sign that Durkon's memories were changing the HPoH subtly, but that is seemingly inconsistency with Durkon's hopes of the HPoH accidentally revealing itself, Durkon clearly noticed the change and seemed happy about it. Hmm.

... man, I didn't notice that dropped g on the HPOH's part, and now I'm really curious what it could mean.


Also a neat connection: When Durkon saw Belkar getting eaten, he immediately jumped in and helped without asking if Belkar needed help.

... wow, well spotted. That one completely flew by me.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'm wondering if the title refers both to Durkon's struggles with the High Priest of Hel and Roy's struggles with the monster. :smallamused:

[LadyEowyn]

I'm enjoying seeing more of Durkon's life. Good comic.

If this is the end of this story segment, fingers crossed for seeing what's going on with Team Evil in the next comic.

[ORione]

I'm curious about something. Is the monster Roy fights something from a D&D book? Does anyone recognize it?

[AsteronIronhoof]

Am I the only one who chuckled at Durkon's joke? Anyone?

[Canisius]

So, in D&D, you're vamped until the vamp is killed with a stake (or sunlight). Is Rich inventing new lore here? I mean, I love it, but I can't see how it fits in with the monster manual - i.e. - the slain person has a struggle with the evil spirit. Or is this a special case, since Durkon's been possessed by the High Priest of Hel?

I'm so confused.

[sayntfuu]

Somethin' is an anagram for Mesh Into.

[Ivrytwr]

Hopefully, Durkon is on his way to gaining the upper hand. But I am just liking Durkula less and less, course he is the bad guy.
3 Pages, woot! Thanks Giant!

[Midnight Lurker]

I wonder just how many OotS-world vampires have been killed because of their inner real selves out-thinking their spiritual captors.

It might explain some facets of stereotypical vampire behavior...

[Dandria]

So the vampire has problems understanding the concept of, what, learning a lesson? I can see how that could turn out to be a problem for him, yes.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

So, in D&D, you're vamped until the vamp is killed with a stake (or sunlight). Is Rich inventing new lore here? I mean, I love it, but I can't see how it fits in with the monster manual - i.e. - the slain person has a struggle with the evil spirit. Or is this a special case, since Durkon's been possessed by the High Priest of Hel?

I'm so confused.

The Giant is essentially creating his own lore about vampires. For more information about vampires, you can check out the links in my sig.

[Broken Crown]

I'm curious about something. Is the monster Roy fights something from a D&D book? Does anyone recognize it?

It appears to be a giant frog. They were in the AD&D Monster Manual, which is appropriate for a battle early in Roy and Durkon's careers.

I'm looking forward to seeing how Durkon uses this revelation of the HPoH's weakness to his advantage. Suspense! Thanks, Giant!

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'm wondering if the title refers both to Durkon's struggles with the High Priest of Hel and Roy's struggles with the monster. :smallamused:

Both?

edit: It might also be a froghemoth, given the tongue grapple.

[ellindsey]

Both?

edit: It might also be a froghemoth, given the tongue grapple.

That, and the three eyes. On the other hand, froghemoths are usually depicted having tentacles, and not being so frog-shaped.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[captain fubar]

I wonder wether the fight with the slaad was a scene from before the comic started, or a false memory that Durkon created and that would have gotten a bonus to the bluff check because its what the vampire wanted to see.

[Anarion]

Also a neat connection: When Durkon saw Belkar getting eaten, he immediately jumped in and helped without asking if Belkar needed help.

That's more than neat, it's critically important. Durkon has been part of the order for a long time. Durkula won't tip off Roy by helping a party member. What would tip off Roy is if Durkula out thinks himself and steps in to do good for some third party they've never met before...without asking.


So the vampire has problems understanding the concept of, what, learning a lesson? I can see how that could turn out to be a problem for him, yes.

The vampire, an inherently evil and, more importantly here, not lawful being, missed out on the concept of respecting the rights and individuality of others. It's a subtle thing, but the point is that in trying to masquerade as being good, he's going to mess up in a way that Is indicative that he isn't Durkon.

[DaggerPen]

I wonder wether the fight with the slaad was a scene from before the comic started, or a false memory that Durkon created and that would have gotten a bonus to the bluff check because its what the vampire wanted to see.

1. Is that a Slaad? I don't think it's a Slaad - those have two eyes and more humanoid, right? Plus, while the art has upgraded a lot, we saw a red slaad here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html).

2. I don't get the impression he can create false memories. He's got to have tried enough to have rolled a natural 20 on a Bluff check well before this if it were possible. Plus, he seems genuinely introspective when the second memory comes up.

[Jasdoif]

With a missing arm, her labor options are probably very limited. I'd be inclined to suspect that she's living under a fixed income provided in thanks of whatever cost her the arm in the first place.Indeed. She mentioned "Pension Day", after all.

[Vinsfeld]

Allotrope!

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I wonder wether the fight with the slaad was a scene from before the comic started, or a false memory that Durkon created and that would have gotten a bonus to the bluff check because its what the vampire wanted to see.
I doubt because I think that if Durkon could bring up false memories he would have done so long before.

[CaDzilla]

The HPoH is using only a slightly better charisma score to make concentration checks now. Even though he's wiser/smarter/prettier than Durkon, he still can't concentrate as well.

[Prospekt]

So uh, in the panel where Roy is stabbing through the Toad thingie, he's wearing the Belt of Giant's Strength. Dammit, now I'm one of those people... (Also, inb4 The Giant tells me he doesn't know what I'm talking about. :smalltongue: )

Anyway, my wisdom must be not so high because it took me a few re-reads to figure out what Durkon learned from this. :smalltongue: Really interesting development, and I cannot wait to see how/when he dupes the HPoH using this.

[stupidlazybum]

I think the giant might have gotten some inspiration for this strip from the new 5E monster manual's table of contents, which I just happened to be looking at when I read the strip.

[theNater]

I don't get the emphasis on something in the last panel
It's subtle enough that I assume the Giant wants it to surprise some people, so I'm putting it in spoilers.
There is no emphasis on something. The emphasis is on somethin', which Durkula just said. In the privacy of Durkon's mind. Where there is no one to fool.

Durkula is gaining Durkon's accent as he absorbs Durkon's memories. What else of Durkon's might Durkula pick up?

[SaintRidley]

The vampire, an inherently evil and, more importantly here, not lawful being, missed out on the concept of respecting the rights and individuality of others. It's a subtle thing, but the point is that in trying to masquerade as being good, he's going to mess up in a way that Is indicative that he isn't Durkon.
The vampire is indisputably Lawful, given its use of Planar Ally.

[DaggerPen]

The vampire is indisputably Lawful, given its use of Planar Ally.

... all the posts we've spent debating whether the HPOH is Lawful, and this is the first time I've seen that come up. Excellent point, and I think that should settle it.

[Peelee]

Well, it's two days early, but i find this an acceptable birthday present.

[Porthos]

This update makes me happy. And not just because a pet theory I was musing about a few days ago looks a bit strengthened right now. :smalltongue:

Might as well continue the theorizing. Characters throughout the strip have had Fatal Flaws that have led to either huge setbacks or their undoing.

Do we know enough about the HPoH to call a Fatal Flaw yet? Perhaps. Right now I'm leaning toward a combination of arrogance and impatience. We've seen time and time again already that the HPoH really doesn't have much patience, which is ironic for an immortal.

Sure, he's willing to play a long game when it suits him. But he gets bored easily. He doesn't like wasting time with what he sees as unimportant things. Instead of just stringing Belkar along, he gives in to temptation and starts messing around with him.

But early to call a defining trait. But it's not too soon to suspect it, either. :smalltongue:

Secondly, he does seem to be more than a bit arrogant. It's not just in his extremely self-assured attitude, it's his dismissive attitude toward anything he deems as unimportant. Or, worse, he doesn't understand.

This is a very very VERY bad combo to have when it comes to flaws. It can lead you to not only overlook things, but dismiss them as being not worth a person's time to figure out. As we have seen time and time again, a person can be as smart or as wise as they come. But if they have willful blind spots... Well, it can be a problem is all I is noting. :smallwink:

[NihhusHuotAliro]

So.

Allotrope.

Anyways, ouch, those cowls and dishes. THere was a time not so long ago when those were expensive and passed down through generations. WHen silverware was something you bought item by item from a catalog. Poor Durkmom.

[colanderman]

1. Is that a Slaad? I don't think it's a Slaad - those have two eyes and more humanoid, right? Plus, while the art has upgraded a lot, we saw a red slaad here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html).

I thought it was a Froghemoth myself. (Though those usually have tentacles in addition to legs?)

[Midnight Lurker]

I thought it was a Froghemoth myself. (Though those usually have tentacles in addition to legs?)

Froghemoths have three eyes on a single retractable eyestalk, and tentacles in place of forelegs. And they're open content so the Lawyers can't get in the way. So this is most likely "just" a giant frog with three eyes.

[GAAD]

It's sort of a tradition for me to make a list of everything that happened in the latest strip. Well, actually, I don't know if it can be considered a tradition yet, since I only did it once so far, but darn it, I'm making it a tradition now.
Kudos to those who recognize the above passage.
What Happened:

We learned Durkon's middle name, which is apparently a geological pun.
Durkon tried to help his mum with the dishes.
Sigdi measured her life in cp.
Sigdi waited for her pension.
Durkula revealed that he is easily bored.
Durkon revealed an ingrained desire for inactivity caused by Sigdi's lessons.
Roy told off Durkon.
Roy and Durkon killed a frog beast.
Durkon realized said ingrained desire for inactivity.
Durkula failed sixth grade English.
Durkon told the same boring joke five hundred times.
Since everybody else is spoilering these for those who didn't realize it: <White text> Durkula ACCIDENTALLY used Durkon's accent in a statement.
Durkon realized that Durkula is accidentally utilizing his manner of speech.
Nobody fixed the airship.
Rich drew a final panel that kind of looks like an eye looking forward, thereby providing a visual stealth punchline to the final piece of dialogue.
Durkon has All O' the Tropes. ALL OF THEM.

[Darth Paul]

I gotta say it;

I'm starting to feel a little sorry for Jerkon. (Jerkula?)

That's if the story takes the shape we expect it to and the HPoH gets revealed in some way due to his own fatal flaws, which we are beginning to see exist. Early on he was so diabolically evil and perfectly in control that it was easy to hate him and feel nothing else, but (as with all good fictional villains) the more I learn about him the more he is relatable. After all, he seems to be a guy doing his job. It's a dirty, rotten job, but if he doesn't do it, he has no existence! What would we do as a conjured spirit, shoved into a body for a specific purpose? And maybe- just maybe- there is a possibility for a Heel-Face Turn somewhere down the line...

[Lissou]

I've been really enjoying Durkon's memories. Looks like the second one is from before they recruited the rest of the party.

I saw the connection right away (I mean, switch from "always ask before helping" to Durkon asking too much before helping seemed obvious to me) so I was surprised that Durkula didn't. I'm not sure exactly how Durkon is planning on exploiting that, though.

With the last panel being a wider view of the Mechane, I'm excited to see what comes next. Usually, when it's used as a reminder of where something takes place, it's at the beginning of a page, not the end. So maybe we'll be moving to a different group next?

[Vinsfeld]

So uh, in the panel where Roy is stabbing through the Toad thingie, he's wearing the Belt of Giant's Strength. Dammit, now I'm one of those people... (Also, inb4 The Giant tells me he doesn't know what I'm talking about. :smalltongue: )


LOL! Nice catch!

[137beth]

The frog fight reminded me of Durkon trying to interpret V's grunts when V was paralyzed from the ghasts in DCF.

....and so, cracks in Hel's plan begin to emerge!

[Essex]

It seems to me that Durkon learned four fairly important things here:

1). The vampire doesn't necessarily understand memories that it sees.

2). The vampire does not recognize general patterns of behavior from specific instances.

3). He can lie to the vampire.

4). He can annoy the vampire enough to make it stop paying attention to his memories.

[Itrogash]

1. Is that a Slaad? I don't think it's a Slaad - those have two eyes and more humanoid, right? Plus, while the art has upgraded a lot, we saw a red slaad here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html)

well, Slaads are pure beings of Chaos, so they can look whatever damn pleases them. Or whatever doesn't please them. Chaos is fickle.

[Gusion]

This is getting boring enough I hope they stake Durkon just to put an end to this part of the story.

[A Tad Insane]

So Durkula can't evolve as a person? That's what I'm getting, considering he didn't pick up on how two events caused Durkon to change.

[gorocz]

I enjoy his middle name.

Being both a bit of a geological pun, and joking about the vampirism

(Allotropes being different expressions of the same element. Both Durkon and HPoH are priests of dwarven Gods expressed very differently) If it means something else, so much the better :smallbiggrin:


Also, since Durkon is pretty much a living dwarven stereotype, you could say that he fits... all o' tropes. :elan: Am I right? ... ... ... No? Ok, I'll let myself out again.:smallfrown:

[Emanick]

Heh. "Allotrope."

It's funny because he's a dwarf, and he follows all the tropes about dwarves, and...

All. O'. [The.] Trope[s].

I assume that was intentional, or this post will become even more embarrassing than it already is. :smalltongue:

[deworde]

My theory is that Durkon's just realised that the HPoH doesn't get that memories aren't just useful information, they build your character.

Before, he'd been assuming that the HPoH had a defence against this, now he's hoping that absorbing the right memories can make the HPoH feel guilt or make some other mistake.

This is backed up by the super subtle thing I didn't originally notice, which implies the process has already begun.

[DaggerPen]

Also, since Durkon is pretty much a living dwarven stereotype, you could say that he fits... all o' tropes. :elan: Am I right? ... ... ... No? Ok, I'll let myself out again.:smallfrown:


Heh. "Allotrope."

It's funny because he's a dwarf, and he follows all the tropes about dwarves, and...

All. O'. [The.] Trope[s].

I assume that was intentional, or this post will become even more embarrassing than it already is. :smalltongue:

Three pages, and then two in a row. What are the chances, huh?

[Aquillion]

This looks good. What the heck does Durkon think is so good, though?Durkon figured out that while he has to show his memories to Durkula in order to answer his questions, he can show them in a way that Durkula doesn't understand (or which Durkula misunderstands), and, presumably, use that to cause Durkula to act suspiciously.

[Ron Miel]

Heh. "Allotrope."

It's funny because he's a dwarf, and he follows all the tropes about dwarves, and...

All. O'. [The.] Trope[s].

I assume that was intentional, or this post will become even more embarrassing than it already is. :smalltongue:

An allotrope is a chemical that can exist in two or more different forms, like carbon can be graphite or diamond.

I'm wondering if its a reference to his two forms, living and undead.

[Peelee]

....(as with all good fictional villains) the more I learn about him the more he is relatable....

Darth Vader. Greatest villain ever, not relatable (I'm talking OT here. You really don't want my rantings on the prequels). Samesies for pretty much any Disney villain. Or Bond villain. Or, to have all the subtlety of a sledgehammer, Xykon.

Good villains need not be relatable, is what I'm saying. And more often than not, they aren't.

[DaggerPen]

Darth Vader. Greatest villain ever, not relatable (I'm talking OT here. You really don't want my rantings on the prequels). Samesies for pretty much any Disney villain. Or Bond villain. Or, to have all the subtlety of a sledgehammer, Xykon.

Good villains need not be relatable, is what I'm saying. And more often than not, they aren't.

I'd say that villains need not be relatable, but more often than not, they should be human. You can have a Xykon or a Joker here or there to great effect, but to have most villains should have some redeeming trait or self-doubt or understandable motive or something, both to make them more compelling and to preserve the horror factor when you get a villain who's just a complete monster.

(Not that you're implying otherwise, it just got me thinking.)

[Gift Jeraff]

:roy: From now on, if one member of the team is being eaten, go ahead and assume you should do something about that.

That's exactly how Durkon died. It's like poetry.

[DaggerPen]

:roy: From now on, if one member of the team is being eaten, go ahead and assume you should do something about that.

That's exactly how Durkon died. It's like poetry.

:durkon: Belkar? D'ye need help, lad? Or are ye good?
:belkar: Nunhn.
:durkon: "No"? Was that' a "No, I'm good," or a "No, I need help"? Are ye still think'n it over?
:belkar: Nunhn.
:durkon: Wait, was that a "No, I'm thinkin' it ov'r," or was it a "No, I need help," or a "No, I'm good"?

[Bird]

I'd say that villains need not be relatable, but more often than not, they should be human. You can have a Xykon or a Joker here or there to great effect, but to have most villains should have some redeeming trait or self-doubt or understandable motive or something, both to make them more compelling and to preserve the horror factor when you get a villain who's just a complete monster.

(Not that you're implying otherwise, it just got me thinking.)
The reason it's important for villains to be recognizably human is that they force us to consider the nature of humanity, and the worse parts of ourselves. A boogeyman or a demon can be threatening and used to great effect in a story, but doesn't cause the same existential unease that a Redcloak or a Magneto or a Humbert Humbert does. If we sort of like Humbert Humbert, and cannot deny that he's recognizably human, he forces us to examine our own morality. Xykon does not.

On a related point, the villain-who-is-a-person satisfies the desire psychological complexity in literature, because she or he is complex. By contrast, a villain like Joker or Mephistopheles is effective because he brings out complex behavior in Batman or Faust. And villains like Cthulhu and the wolf in Little Red Riding Hood stand in for a general malevolence in the universe as much or more so than they operate as characters in their own rights.

[To qualify the above: I do not deny complete monsters like Xykon can have their own charm (I love the character), and can force readers to think in their own way.]

[Faltenin]

Maybe Durkon sees connections everywhere, but HPOH knows that correlation does not imply causality and will not come to conclusions based on one single piece of second-hand anecdotal evidence?

(or maybe I'm reading too much into this webcomic :smallbiggrin: )

[Faltenin]

BTW, nice second name, Durkon!

For the non-science geeks out there, "allotrope" means that an element can exist in two (or more) different forms, like carbon can be black graphite or shiny diamond....

or you know, Durkon can be both a cleric of Thor and the HPOH... nice prophetic name ye gave me, Mama! :durkon:

[Killer Angel]

Allotrope got a plan!!! :smalltongue::smallsmile:

[Gnoman]

Indeed. She mentioned "Pension Day", after all.

What I was trying to say was that "finding a few coppers" to pay for the bowls may well have been less a statement based on poverty than it was a reallocation of a fixed resource that she would have to take from something else.

[ti'esar]

I've been trying and trying to come up with something to say that someone hasn't already said, so I think I'll just give up and say I really liked this one.

And I really hope that, if this is the end of a chapter, we're in for a cutaway to Team Evil next strip.

[Adventurer]

Holy wisdom modifier batman!

No really tthough. Durkula doesnt have high wisdom apparently. Durkon on the other hand...
...Durkon on the other hand acted like he had a negative wisdom modifier in the toad monster battle. I mean, your friend is obviously been eaten by a monster and you let him be eaten because he didn't ask for help? Even Elan wouldn't be that stupid, especially based on something his mother had told him when he was just a child... to which he still hanged on to in the most literal sense. It's like he never matured even a little bit since then... was there never a situation in his life where he needed to help someone without that someone telling him to do so, in all those decades after the first memory? Heck, his own mother helped that dwarf who fell off the ladder in #947 without him asking for help, if it was Durkon in her place (and age) he would have let him die thanks to that reasoning. Just like Roy could easily have died from that toad monster. Seriously, there is a line between being considerate as to when you should help someone and to being utterly irresponsible and mindnumbingly stupid.

[hamishspence]

Given that Roy was now inside the creature's mouth - any whacks to the creature's head risk damaging Roy as well. Still, Durkon could have gone for somewhere else on the creature.

Not helping people in the middle of a fight can have a number of reasons. For example:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HelpingWouldBeKillstealing

[Varthonai]

That's more than neat, it's critically important. Durkon has been part of the order for a long time. Durkula won't tip off Roy by helping a party member. What would tip off Roy is if Durkula out thinks himself and steps in to do good for some third party they've never met before...without asking.



The vampire, an inherently evil and, more importantly here, not lawful being, missed out on the concept of respecting the rights and individuality of others. It's a subtle thing, but the point is that in trying to masquerade as being good, he's going to mess up in a way that Is indicative that he isn't Durkon.

It's not about the vampire missing out on the true nature of Good, or of respecting the rights and individuality of others. What the vampire doesn't understand is character development--i.e., the ability of living beings to have experiences that change them.

This is a consistent theme in the comic--immortality stops your character from developing, because being confronted with your mortality is what forces you to think about your legacy and your impact on the world. Right-Eye accused Redcloak of not having ever matured since he first put on the Crimson Mantle. Xykon has been unable to develop interest in any new activities since he became a lich, leaving him with no possible recourse for pleasure but sadism (since his non-violent interests like terrible coffee are now denied to him). Tsukiko discovered the hard way that wights, despite being intelligent undead, are not capable of learning real affection. The spirits in Celestia assume forms that reflect their inner selves upon death and remain static in them forever (e.g. baby Eric Greenhilt, young and promiscuous Sara Greenhilt, curmudgeonly old Eugene Greenhilt, powerful warrior Horace Greenhilt). The personality of everyone who is immortal is frozen*, but everyone who is living and mortal has the capacity to change--even seemingly incorrigible and unrepentant murderers like Belkar.

And appropriately enough, Belkar has already (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html) accused Durkula of not understanding how character development works. What Durkon has realized is that Durkula doesn't merely have a poor grasp of character development, he literally cannot fathom it due to his very nature. So I don't think it's jumping the gun at all to call this a Fatal Flaw. It ties in with too many of the story's other themes. I know I wouldn't be able to resist if I was writing it.

Whatever happens to bring about Durkula's undoing though, it won't happen soon enough to save his homeland from destruction.


*though there have been some exceptions! Redcloak experienced character development when he decided to stop throwing away hobgoblin lives based on a childhood grudge. Malack presumably experienced character development when he formed a sincere bond of friendship with Tarquin. Sabine has formed an apparently genuine and enduring love for Nale. Unclear whether these apparent inconsistencies are deliberate or not on the Giant's part.

[Judge_Worm]

I don't think the bit with Roy and the toad ever happened, I think Durkon's feeding HPoH false information.

[ti'esar]

Not helping people in the middle of a fight can have a number of reasons. For example:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HelpingWouldBeKillstealing

That's not exactly a Lawful Good line of reasoning, though.

[Turgon]

I am really enjoying the flashbacks to Durkon's past.

And Durkon finally glimpses a silver lining in his predicament! :smallsmile:

Thanks for your work, Giant.

[GooeyChewie]

Hehe. His middle name is "all a trope."

[theNater]

...Durkon on the other hand acted like he had a negative wisdom modifier in the toad monster battle. I mean, your friend is obviously been eaten by a monster and you let him be eaten because he didn't ask for help?
You never know; getting eaten might have been part of Roy's plan. Remember the arena fight against Thog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html)? Somebody jumps in there and pulls Roy out of Thog's way, the pillars don't get smashed.

Roy is a crazy man, despite all the sensible talk and planning he does. It's one of the things I love about him.

It's not about the vampire missing out on the true nature of Good, or of respecting the rights and individuality of others. What the vampire doesn't understand is character development--i.e., the ability of living beings to have experiences that change them.

This is a consistent theme in the comic--immortality stops your character from developing, because being confronted with your mortality is what forces you to think about your legacy and your impact on the world.
I suspect that in Durkula's case, it's actually the opposite. He doesn't understand growth because he's never done it, rather than having stopped. Remember, he was created mere days ago. His only experience with how people learn and grow is what he's absorbed from Durkon, and he's still in the earliest stages of that.

[gerryq]

HPoH seemingly can't determine the emotional connection between Durkon's memories. To hazard a guess, I'd say Durkon plans on giving incorrect information to his bloodsucking parasite by playing off of this.

Or he plans on being as obnoxious as possible to the HPoH. Either way, it's going to be great.

My take is that Durkon has realised that the vampire spirit has no understanding of human motivation, and he can use this to mislead it. [Think of the Sandestins used by magicians in Jack Vance's books. They are powerful spirits but they take all instructions literally.]

Of course, the story also suggests that Durkon himself is not the ideal person to be trying to play such games! But at least he has figured out that there are connections to figure out, and that the spirit won't get it.

[Lheticus]

This is intriguing indeed! I won't waste breath speculating on what plan Durkon is brewing against Darkon, but I can't wait to find out. ^_^

[stsasser]

Durkula has Aspergers?

[Neoriceisgood]

Really looking forward to whatever Durkon's planning to do next.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't think the bit with Roy and the toad ever happened, I think Durkon's feeding HPoH false information.

Again, I doubt it because if Durkon could feed the High Priest of Hel false information he would have done so earlier and done something to reveal himself.

[SaintRidley]

:roy: From now on, if one member of the team is being eaten, go ahead and assume you should do something about that.

That's exactly how Durkon died. It's like poetry.

Roy killed Durkon. Just what would the Deva say now?


Kidding.

[Shining Wrath]

Durkon has spotted the HPOH's weakness: evil spirits birthed in the halls of Hel herself don't have good Insight skills. At all. Evil dude doesn't understand what it is to be a living creature that grows and matures and feeds one experience into another.

Not certain how Durkon will use this realization, but he seems to have an idea.

[elros]

I really enjoyed the update:
1) it give insight into Durkon's nature, and I always appreciate the character development in this webcomic:
2) it explains how a Tier 1 character has been so ineffective so far- he just doesn't step up and use his powers to their fullest. His greatest combat moment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0859.html) happened when (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html) Roy created the plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0855.html). When he is alone he can be an effective caster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html), come up with effective combat tactics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0873.html), and figure out how to exploit enemies's weaknesses (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0875.html).
3) it shows that Durkon can use this time time to be introspective and learn things about himself. That will not only help him trick the HPoH, but it turns his condition into a chance for self improvement, and not just a hopeless imprisonment.
4) it shows that the Giant is ready move on and show other parts of the story, which I'm eager to see.

[DanaK]

Durkula has Aspergers?

Just because he's blind to normal mortal social behaviors doesn't mean that's what it is. He's an evil spirit forced into a mortal body, fumbling his way through each day.
He's not human, he's not even a dwarf.

[Jay R]

I'm wondering if the title refers both to Durkon's struggles with the High Priest of Hel and Roy's struggles with the monster. :smallamused:

Also the internal struggle Durkon has had between wanting to help and obeying his mother not to help without permission.


So Durkula can't evolve as a person? That's what I'm getting, considering he didn't pick up on how two events caused Durkon to change.

No, the high priest can't understand how people evolve. Not the same thing at all. The fact that Durkon's accent slipped in when he wasn't trying to fool anybody shows that some degree of evolution can and will happen.

When you add the fact that by attempting to pretend to be a better teammate and not a psychopath, Belkar has actually become a better teammate and less of a psychopath without Belkar noticing, and that this has been a major theme for the last story arc, it suggests that maybe attempting to be Durkon will affect the high priest's character without the high priest noticing.

[LuisDantas]

It's odd that Durkula can't make obvious logical connections between the two events though

I believe we are meant to take that as evidence that the vampire's dark soul, being a construct from Hel's realm, has unusual thought patterns.

He lacks the ability to care about making harm to others, and with that comes the lack of ability to fully grasp certain human motivations and taboos.

[Jay R]

I believe we are meant to take that as evidence that the vampire's dark soul, being a construct from Hel's realm, has unusual thought patterns.

He lacks the ability to care about making harm to others, and with that comes the lack of ability to fully grasp certain human motivations and taboos.

It's worth remembering that he has existed for only a few days. How could he possibly understand long-term growth?

[LuisDantas]

Also, we have his middle name, I think that's a first.

I think so as well. I wonder if this will connect with Redcloak's chemical elementals in some way.


What's the smokey thing in the last panel?

The Mechane's exaust fumes.


This looks good. What the heck does Durkon think is so good, though?

The obviously short reach of the Vampire's ability to empathise. It may be used to fool him and to make him expose himself.


HPoH seemingly can't determine the emotional connection between Durkon's memories. To hazard a guess, I'd say Durkon plans on giving incorrect information to his bloodsucking parasite by playing off of this.

Right now I would guess that he will build a false memory - or simply lie to the Vampire - stating that he and Roy came to an understanding about how much initiative he is supposed to have, using a justification that will jump to Roy and the others as obviously false. For instance, "Roy asked me not to interfere unless he is being literally eaten, because he needs to raise the most possible XP alone in order to enact blood vengeance on his father". With any luck, such a lie could end up being stated by the Vampire and all but ensure the realization of his control over Durkon's body.


I don't get the emphasis on something in the last panel

It is to show that Durkon has a very different "something" in mind.

[Incom]

*though there have been some exceptions! Redcloak experienced character development when he decided to stop throwing away hobgoblin lives based on a childhood grudge. Malack presumably experienced character development when he formed a sincere bond of friendship with Tarquin. Sabine has formed an apparently genuine and enduring love for Nale. Unclear whether these apparent inconsistencies are deliberate or not on the Giant's part.

Interestingly, at least in the first case, Redcloak was confronted with someone else's mortality. It's likely that Malack and Sabine also learned loyalty from Tarquin and Nale, respectively, though presumably through means that didn't result in anyone dying (could have saved them from violent ends though).

[rodneyAnonymous]

It is to show that Durkon has a very different "something" in mind.

He is repeating the evil spirit in the previous panel, who said "somethin'".

[LuisDantas]

It's worth remembering that he has existed for only a few days. How could he possibly understand long-term growth?

Well, he has learned the language, basic memories and much of the behavior of Durkon well enough to actively attempt to emulate it.

Even so, I think there is something to what you say. I have a hunch this will connect to the surprising lack of Hel worshippers. Maybe Hel is literally unaware of character growth, and therefore can't guide her Priest towards emulating it.

[Keltest]

You know, it took me a couple reads, but I noticed that before engaging the frog thing, Roy announced "Im going in." before promptly being swallowed by the frog. So Durkon wasn't just being an idiot there, he had a reason to think Roy might be planning something rather than suffering the consequences of being a pure melee fighter.

[Lheticus]

Also the internal struggle Durkon has had between wanting to help and obeying his mother not to help without permission.



No, the high priest can't understand how people evolve. Not the same thing at all. The fact that Durkon's accent slipped in when he wasn't trying to fool anybody shows that some degree of evolution can and will happen.

When you add the fact that by attempting to pretend to be a better teammate and not a psychopath, Belkar has actually become a better teammate and less of a psychopath without Belkar noticing, and that this has been a major theme for the last story arc, it suggests that maybe attempting to be Durkon will affect the high priest's character without the high priest noticing.

Verrrrry interesting. Your theory has won a subscriber--though I have my doubts as to this leading to any significant impact in the limited timeframe likely remaining in the story. It may just wind up as something that COULD have happened.

[Willis888]

Remember, he was created mere days ago. His only experience with how people learn and grow is what he's absorbed from Durkon, and he's still in the earliest stages of that.

That's a great point!

We're watching HPoH's childhood. Formative memories from Durkon's childhood are apparently effecting the development of the spirit.

HPoH (almost literally born yesterday) doesn't realize it yet, but Durkon may be able to use boredom to induce a psudo-hypnotic, suggestible state of consciousness in HPoH. While in this state of craving mental sustenance, the memories Durkon chooses to show will encourage behavior changes in HPoH.

[Peelee]

I don't think the bit with Roy and the toad ever happened, I think Durkon's feeding HPoH false information.
In addition to the rather excellent point of

Again, I doubt it because if Durkon could feed the High Priest of Hel false information he would have done so earlier and done something to reveal himself.
do you have any clues from the comic that it is false? Or is this just baseless guessing?

[Canisius]

You know, something just occurred to me. Durkon has that little flash of recognition when he's talking to Durkula: "In what way?" "Ye really don't..?"

Perhaps what he's realized is that, although Durkula has ownership of his mind and memories, he doesn't own Durkon's own thoughts & plans. Durkon immediately sees the link between the two memories, but Durkula doesn't have access to that realization. It might be something Durkon can use against the vampire.

[BrotherMirtillo]

We've got multiple people predicting that Durkon will show inappropriate information to not-Durkon because not-Durkon won't know the difference between behaviors that fit patterns versus ones that don't.

That's also my reading on it, but I have to wonder what situation would allow this to happen. If not-Durkon demands a certain subject, how could Durkon match that subject while leaving out something crucial? Here's one guess of mine:

-They land in gnome territories, and a gnome police officer starts eyeing the crew up and down, suspecting they’re up to no good.
-The vampire cleric gets put on the spot for some diplomacy, and he demands information on what to say to a nosy official.
-The real Durkon would be calm, methodical, and respectful of the local law as much as possible (so long as his fellow party members are safe).
-However, Durkon produces a memory (possibly from his relatively-unbridled youth) of someone who tried overextending his authority until Durkon or somebody else finally put him back in his place.
-The vampire cleric tells the gnome to shove off.

Of course, there will be some big gaping chances for the vampire cleric to cobble together an explanation, but it should be fun to watch either way.




It's not about the vampire missing out on the true nature of Good, or of respecting the rights and individuality of others. What the vampire doesn't understand is character development--i.e., the ability of living beings to have experiences that change them.

This is a consistent theme in the comic--immortality stops your character from developing, because being confronted with your mortality is what forces you to think about your legacy and your impact on the world.

I suspect that in Durkula's case, it's actually the opposite. He doesn't understand growth because he's never done it, rather than having stopped. Remember, he was created mere days ago. His only experience with how people learn and grow is what he's absorbed from Durkon, and he's still in the earliest stages of that.

Great, now I'm picturing him as a baby, all wandering and poking at stuff to see what happens. I know that's not who he is, but still, I can feel my mental eyes crossing trying to see him as immature and adult at the same time. It should be a hoot to see the next thing that he can't fathom.

Of course, the combination of these two posts would mean that not-Durkon never has grown and he is never going to grow -- at least, not in the biological sense. We'll see if Rich will choose to link mentality and biology for purposes of character potential.


Durkula has Aspergers?


Just because he's blind to normal mortal social behaviors doesn't mean that's what it is. He's an evil spirit forced into a mortal body, fumbling his way through each day.
He's not human, he's not even a dwarf.

Both intriguing posts, but if the situation develops closer to stsasser's take on it, then I can say there are quite a few things that would bewilder someone with that style of blind spot.

In fact, maybe the true reveal of this strip is the "dinner party" joke! Calling it now: not-Durkon is going to blow his cover by failing to laugh at the most ancient and beloved dwarven inside jokes and/or trying to crack a "joke" that's in horrible taste.

[canpinter]

So HPoH cant really understand what motivates people, It can only mimic he might just revel himself when he doesn't show his durkons normal level of insight into people.

[Geddoe]

Really reminds me of the giant frog fights on the way to a fortress in the pc Temple of Elemental Evil.

[Windscion]

This is a consistent theme in the comic ... The personality of everyone who is immortal is frozen*, but everyone who is living and mortal has the capacity to change--even seemingly incorrigible and unrepentant murderers like Belkar.

Quoted to disagree. In Celestia the spirits remain on the level Roy visited only until they were ready to move up higher. (As noted by Roy's Archon, who ought to know. I don't feel like finding the actual strip #.) And Redcloak isn't a good counterexample anyway, as he is mortal -- he just doesn't age.

[TheMiningDwarf]

It's been said in the thread that Durkula is incapable of understanding character growth but the change in accent shows that that's what's happening to him. It's like Durkon has his own little Belkar in his head :smallbiggrin:

[Jay R]

I don't think the bit with Roy and the toad ever happened, I think Durkon's feeding HPoH false information.

Durkon is acting to himself like it's real, since he just saw something in it he hadn't seen before. He couldn't say this aboot somethin' he'd just made up.

:durkon::I ne'er really thought aboot ... I mean, I ne'er really put those t'gether...


You know, something just occurred to me. Durkon has that little flash of recognition when he's talking to Durkula: "In what way?" "Ye really don't..?"

Perhaps what he's realized is that, although Durkula has ownership of his mind and memories, he doesn't own Durkon's own thoughts & plans. Durkon immediately sees the link between the two memories, but Durkula doesn't have access to that realization. It might be something Durkon can use against the vampire.

More directly, the high priest doesn't see everything he's thinking about - just his memories. And Durkon just successfully lied to him (about the connection being a dinner party). He now knows that he can feed the high priest a memory that's true, with commentary that's false.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Durkula has Aspergers?

Sure, why not.

[daryen]

Am I the only one that thinks that last panel make a great background image?

[GAAD]

Am I the only one that thinks that last panel make a great background image?

No. But you ARE the only one who bothered to comment.
Until now! That would look epic.

[Emperordaniel]

:durkon: Belkar? D'ye need help, lad? Or are ye good?
:belkar: Nunhn.
:durkon: "No"? Was that' a "No, I'm good," or a "No, I need help"? Are ye still think'n it over?
:belkar: Nunhn.
:durkon: Wait, was that a "No, I'm thinkin' it ov'r," or was it a "No, I need help," or a "No, I'm good"?

Wasn't that :vaarsuvius:, not :belkar:?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Wasn't that :vaarsuvius:, not :belkar:?

I believe that DaggerPen was talking about when Malack killed Durkon, on how things might have gone if Roy hadn't had that little talk with Durkon.

[kiapet]

And so we find a chink in the HPoH's armor.
A small one, and I'm not really sure what Durkon can do with it, but at least it's there!

[Sesharan]

I assumed that Durkon's discovery was that he can have multiple memories that apply to the same lesson, and the HPoH isn't interested enough in Durkon to go looking for the one that's affected his character the most. So (for example) if a teammate were being eaten, Durkon could show the HPoH the first of those two memories, and he'd probably act on it because he's impatient and doesn't want to spend thought-hours looking for every single memory that could possibly apply to that situation.

[Darth Paul]

Darth Vader. Greatest villain ever, not relatable (I'm talking OT here. You really don't want my rantings on the prequels). Samesies for pretty much any Disney villain. Or Bond villain. Or, to have all the subtlety of a sledgehammer, Xykon.

Good villains need not be relatable, is what I'm saying. And more often than not, they aren't.

Why is Vader not relatable? Or I suppose "understandable" is the word I should have chosen? And even more so in the light of the prequels (whatever you think of the acting... yeah, I know...). He's a tragic figure who was a hero first. He lost everything he had except his wife, was desperate to keep her, and thought he had only one option- joining Team Evil- which would give him the power to save her.

I'm not comparing the HPoH, just saying that he's starting to develope a personality and flaws and motivations beyond "mess with Durkon's head and do my mistress' bidding", and thus is becoming a full character.

I have to disagree with your last line. I think the best villains are exactly what we fear we could become, given exactly the right (or wrong) reasons.

[Judge_Worm]

Again, I doubt it because if Durkon could feed the High Priest of Hel false information he would have done so earlier and done something to reveal himself.

I think he can't give HPoH bad info when it is requested, but I don't know about when it is offered. Also, Roy is wearing his current outfit, and the art for those panels doesn't look as detailed, so either Rich got a little lazy or something's fishy with that memory.

[Origamite]

Durkula uses "somethin'". Is Durkon rubbing off on him?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think he can't give HPoH bad info when it is requested, but I don't know about when it is offered. Also, Roy is wearing his current outfit, and the art for those panels doesn't look as detailed, so either Rich got a little lazy or something's fishy with that memory.

The High Priest of Hel said "Show me something like that" which is a request. Roy's old and new outfits have almost no differences, and the belt is not there. I don't find the art to be less detailed" it's certainly more detailed than the art was for a large part of the strip's history.

[ORione]

I think he can't give HPoH bad info when it is requested, but I don't know about when it is offered. Also, Roy is wearing his current outfit, and the art for those panels doesn't look as detailed, so either Rich got a little lazy or something's fishy with that memory.

Roy's wearing the same outfit he's always worn. The artwork has changed, not his wardrobe.

[Canuck617]

I also missed the emphasis on "somethin'" Durkon made regarding Durkoff's evolving speech patters. This is why I like the forum. That, and the explanation on Allotrope. I thought it had to do with enzymes somehow. I don't think it's got anything to do with his future vampirism. I think GooeyChewie has a better connection here albeit just a pun


Hehe. His middle name is "all a trope."

Get it? It would be an epic level pun on The Giant's part if it's true. The diamond explanation tracks a bit. Also, I think a few others mentioned it before, but it wasn't until here that I got it.

Now for something meaningful... I'm digging all this Durkon/Durkoff side story. Keep it coming! Also, to elaborate on Durkoff's evolving speech patterns/unintended character growth, does it remind anyone else of Lasciel from the Dresden Files in that Durkon is affecting Durkoff as Dresden affected Lasciel? I don't want to spoil too much, but I'll say that's the only similarity I'm referring to, and not the other differences I'm leaving out. Just a thought.

[Zea mays]

Oooh, Durkon might give his friendly neighborhood brain-parasite a name. That would simultaneously provide interesting character development, and elate some forumites who abhor fan-made nicknames.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Oooh, Durkon might give his friendly neighborhood brain-parasite a name. That would simultaneously provide interesting character development, and elate some forumites who abhor fan-made nicknames.

Oh, definitely. Finally having a real name would be a blessing.

[ericgrau]

You know, something just occurred to me. Durkon has that little flash of recognition when he's talking to Durkula: "In what way?" "Ye really don't..?"

Perhaps what he's realized is that, although Durkula has ownership of his mind and memories, he doesn't own Durkon's own thoughts & plans. Durkon immediately sees the link between the two memories, but Durkula doesn't have access to that realization. It might be something Durkon can use against the vampire.


Not only that, but while Durkula notices individual memories he doesn't notice connections between them. He also doesn't notice the full meaning behind them, especially when it's not of interest such as a moral lesson. Additionally while Durkula chooses what to do with Durkon's memories, Durkon can choose to reveal particular memories. Durkon can use this to communicate with Roy by showing a memory or two connected memories with a special meaning that Durkula doesn't realize.

[DaggerPen]

I believe that DaggerPen was talking about when Malack killed Durkon, on how things might have gone if Roy hadn't had that little talk with Durkon.

That's the one, yeah.

[Emperordaniel]

I think he can't give HPoH bad info when it is requested, but I don't know about when it is offered. Also, Roy is wearing his current outfit, and the art for those panels doesn't look as detailed, so either Rich got a little lazy or something's fishy with that memory.

:haley: Pssst! Judge_Worm, it's an art upgrade, we're supposed to pretend we were always drawn this way. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html)

[ackmondual]

Ok... so we've established they're still on an airship :smalltongue:

[LuisDantas]

On a second reading, I realize something that some of you have ben hinting at: the Vampire has asked for a story, but did not specify that it needed to be a memory as opposed to a made up tale. It is unclear which of the two the frog fight was. And Durkon has just established that it is definitely possible to lie to him even while he is trapped in his own mind.

[r2d2go]

I'm sure someone has already quipped about this, but...

If a surname can save a soldier's life, can a middle name save Durkon's soul? :smalltongue:

[chy03001]

Roy: "OK... new party rule: From now on, if one member of the team is being eaten, go ahead and assume that you should do something about that."

Heh... was that a nudge at Belkar's predicament?

[M.A.D]

Heh, now it's "Durkon A. Thundershield" in my head-canon :smallamused:

Also, what Durkon learns today is (1) The HPoH doesn't understand people's behaviour, and (2) he can't read Durkon's thoughts, only memories perceived by him via the 5 senses. We've had enough hints pointing to both in previous strips, but now that Durkon knows it, what's gonna happen next?


Who knows what you know is as important as knowing it in the first place.
Unrelated, but I've always thought that this quote is also intended to poke at us readers. Sometimes, we argue about some characters' behaviours because we know things from the narrative POV, without considering that those same characters don't know or don't remember the same things.

[pendell]

Excellent strip.

The takeaway I'm getting from this is Durkon is excited and pleased because he has found a way to deceive the Helish being currently inhabiting his body.

To wit, the creature has full access to his memories, but it did not inherit his ability to process those memories. Even if Durkula cannot himself change or adapt, he should at least be able to spot connections and logical patterns. But it appears these simple life lessons are so alien to an undead spirit from the darkest places of the world that it cannot understand them even intellectually -- at least, not without having it spelled out by Durkon. Which Durkon has no interest in doing.

Durkon has found a flaw in the vampire-spirit, which he evidently seems to believe he can exploit.

Ironically, this kind of mind game will play to Durkon's strengths. Durkon, being lawful, deceives by telling less than the full truth or by putting an alternate gloss on bare facts. He doesn't fabricate events -- and now he doesn't have the option. He must show truthful memories to the vampire, but he is under no obligation to truthfully interpret the images he displays.

I don't immediately see how this will result in a plan .. .but then, if it was obvious it wouldn't be much of a story.


An excellent update. Thank you, Rich!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lheticus]

Just to throw in a couple of pennies, it kinda makes sense that Durkula (okay fine, Darkon's not catching on, I get the hint already) can't read Durkon's thoughts. Durkon DID die after all, and when the HPoH was created, Durkon's body was no longer Durkon's body, but the HPoH's body. Durkon's spirit doesn't interact with his old brain at all other than being trapped there.

In other words, it's the HPoH's brain, Durkon's just "living" in it. His thoughts as a spirit are independent of the thoughts of his former physical brain.

[F.Harr]

Go Dukon! Bore that bastard!

[Dalek Kommander]

So, in D&D, you're vamped until the vamp is killed with a stake (or sunlight). Is Rich inventing new lore here? I mean, I love it, but I can't see how it fits in with the monster manual - i.e. - the slain person has a struggle with the evil spirit. Or is this a special case, since Durkon's been possessed by the High Priest of Hel?

I'm so confused.

The D&D Vampire template doesn't say much more than that vampires are evil, and the original person cannot be raised by any method (including methods that don't require the original body) until the vampire is destroyed. It doesn't say whether the original person will remember being a vampire or have any lingering alignment issues after being raised, much less specify exactly where his soul was in the interim.

In short, what passes for "established" D&D Vampire lore is an almost completely blank slate. Rich just filled it in a bit more creatively than some GMs might have.

[Pyron]

...Durkon on the other hand acted like he had a negative wisdom modifier in the toad monster battle. I mean, your friend is obviously been eaten by a monster and you let him be eaten because he didn't ask for help? Even Elan wouldn't be that stupid, especially based on something his mother had told him when he was just a child... to which he still hanged on to in the most literal sense. It's like he never matured even a little bit since then... was there never a situation in his life where he needed to help someone without that someone telling him to do so, in all those decades after the first memory? Heck, his own mother helped that dwarf who fell off the ladder in #947 without him asking for help, if it was Durkon in her place (and age) he would have let him die thanks to that reasoning. Just like Roy could easily have died from that toad monster. Seriously, there is a line between being considerate as to when you should help someone and to being utterly irresponsible and mindnumbingly stupid.

I think this is an example of his mother's bad advice and poor parenting. We see that she doesn't follow the "don't help unless that person asks" rule, but she that's the lesson she drills into her son's head. It does explain why Durkon is such a relatively passive individual; he grew up with a parent who repressed his desire to do good rather than nurture it.

[Keltest]

I think this is an example of his mother's bad advice and poor parenting. We see that she doesn't follow the "don't help unless that person asks" rule, but she that's the lesson she drills into her son's head. It does explain why Durkon is such a relatively passive individual; he grew up with a parent who repressed his desire to do good rather than nurture it.

I think saying "she drilled it into her son's head" is overstating things a bit. Durkon clearly had a large takeaway from that, but since one of the plot points of the latest strip is that he didn't realise just how much he was affected by it, it couldn't have been something his mother impressed upon him overmuch.

[Pyron]

I think saying "she drilled it into her son's head" is overstating things a bit. Durkon clearly had a large takeaway from that, but since one of the plot points of the latest strip is that he didn't realise just how much he was affected by it, it couldn't have been something his mother impressed upon him overmuch.

I disagree, the fact that he just realized how much was affected by it just shows how deep the lesson was impressed upon him.

Examine the after dinner scene. Another parent who had been thrilled to have a son who's willing to help at the table and would tell them to grab another stack. Having a son who's willing to help would be a great bonding experience and a way to teach him valuable lessons.

Instead, she yells "I'm na helpless!". She's someone who has to prove that she's capable of doing everything with just one arm. In most circumstances, this is a noble trait, but not at the expense of her child's development.

[Keltest]

I disagree, the fact that he just realized how much was affected by it just shows how deep the lesson was impressed upon him.

Examine the after dinner scene. Another parent who had been thrilled to have a son who's willing to help at the table and would tell them to grab another stack. Having a son who's willing to help would be a great bonding experience and a way to teach him valuable lessons.

Instead, she yells "I'm na helpless!". She's someone who has to prove that she's capable of doing everything with just one arm. In most circumstances, this is a noble trait, but not at the expense of her child's development.

I think you misunderstand me. Im not saying it didn't affect him deeply, because it obviously did. What i'm saying is that his mother didn't intend for it to affect him that deeply, and that it wasn't an often repeated lesson. If it had been, there wouldn't have been a disconnect between the two memories we see at all; Durkon would have recognized the connection between what happened and how he was raised a long time ago (shortly after the frog incident, for example) rather than just now.

[theNater]

I disagree, the fact that he just realized how much was affected by it just shows how deep the lesson was impressed upon him.
Everything impresses deeply upon him; he's intensely lawful by nature. That his mother didn't adapt her parenting techniques perfectly to this isn't bad parenting; it's normal parenting. Every child is different, and no parent gets everything right. She tried to use this moment to teach him to help carefully, so he doesn't do more harm than good. He didn't quite take it right, and that happens sometimes.

Examine the after dinner scene. Another parent who had been thrilled to have a son who's willing to help at the table and would tell them to grab another stack. Having a son who's willing to help would be a great bonding experience and a way to teach him valuable lessons.

Instead, she yells "I'm na helpless!". She's someone who has to prove that she's capable of doing everything with just one arm. In most circumstances, this is a noble trait, but not at the expense of her child's development.
Sometimes a child's help actually makes the work harder. Consider Bart Simpson's cranberry sauce (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoptLoEj_tk).

And she doesn't go straight to "I'm na helpless". She says "I can get 'em meself", which is an absolutely reasonable and polite way of refusing help. The yelling only starts when Durkon actually grabs the dishes she is holding, which is not acceptable behavior.

[ORione]

Anyway, I think that asking someone if they need help instead of just assuming that they do is generally a good thing, for exactly the reason Sigdi says.

For example, I've heard stories from people who use canes who were in the process of opening a door, when someone else opened it to try to help them. Then the person with the cane falls over because they had been leaning on the door while they were opening it.

I really don't think that saying that Durkon should ask whether someone needs help was impairing his development. Sigdi also said that Durkon's wanting to help was a good instinct. It's not like she knew that the thing with the frog was going to happen. Blaming her for that would be a bit like blaming Roy for Durkon getting killed, since that happened when he did something about a teammate getting eaten.

[Prospekt]

On a second reading, I realize something that some of you have ben hinting at: the Vampire has asked for a story, but did not specify that it needed to be a memory as opposed to a made up tale. It is unclear which of the two the frog fight was. And Durkon has just established that it is definitely possible to lie to him even while he is trapped in his own mind.

No, it's pretty clear the fight with the frog happened because of the correlation between the two memories. It's kind of the whole point of the strip- analyzing the results of Durkon's passive nature due to what his mother told him, and how the HPOH doesn't see that. That's what Durkon is basically "thinking out loud" about- how his childhood influenced the way he acts. He just didn't realize it until now.

[Origamite]

Not only that, but while Durkula notices individual memories he doesn't notice connections between them. He also doesn't notice the full meaning behind them, especially when it's not of interest such as a moral lesson. Additionally while Durkula chooses what to do with Durkon's memories, Durkon can choose to reveal particular memories. Durkon can use this to communicate with Roy by showing a memory or two connected memories with a special meaning that Durkula doesn't realize.


Wait; can Durkula read Durkon's really recent memories, like after he was vamped? Any plans could be anticlimactically spoiled in a second, if Durkula can see them.

[Throknor]

I believe that DaggerPen was talking about when Malack killed Durkon, on how things might have gone if Roy hadn't had that little talk with Durkon.

You're a frickin' vampire, Malack! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0872.html)

He states outright that it had nothing to do with Belkar, and everything to do with the sense of betrayal he felt. Since Hilgya this was Durkon's first real out-of-partly friend he's made, and he turned out to be an undead abomination. Helping Belkar quickly became secondary to dealing with Malack. I think his reaction would have been exactly the same if he found Malack was drinking from a clearly willing person.

There are other situations that show him helping without asking (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html). I just feel too much is being read into the 'eating a party member'. Durkon noticed something about how to show his memories, possibly controlling the order they appear from how they relate. If he can use that to limit what is seen to old memories that would confuse the party he might stand a chance of raising their doubts.

[Throknor]

Wait; can Durkula read Durkon's really recent memories, like after he was vamped? Any plans could be anticlimactically spoiled in a second, if Durkula can see them.

He can't read Durkon's mind; he can just force him to project memories of what he's seen. So whatever plan he comes up with would be secret to his own mind. The only two things he can do are talk in his mind as much as he wants or unwillingly project his own memories of events. The question is just how much control he has over those projections and I think he just realized he has more than he thought.

[happycrow]

No, it's pretty clear the fight with the frog happened because of the correlation between the two memories. It's kind of the whole point of the strip- analyzing the results of Durkon's passive nature due to what his mother told him, and how the HPOH doesn't see that. That's what Durkon is basically "thinking out loud" about- how his childhood influenced the way he acts. He just didn't realize it until now.

And lo and behold, Count Durkula is unable to learn "valuable life lessons." Classic case of story-over-stats. Brilliant.

[Lombard]

This was my favorite Dangling Durkon strip so far.

:roach:

[DaggerPen]

Anyway, I think that asking someone if they need help instead of just assuming that they do is generally a good thing, for exactly the reason Sigdi says.

For example, I've heard stories from people who use canes who were in the process of opening a door, when someone else opened it to try to help them. Then the person with the cane falls over because they had been leaning on the door while they were opening it.

I really don't think that saying that Durkon should ask whether someone needs help was impairing his development. Sigdi also said that Durkon's wanting to help was a good instinct. It's not like she knew that the thing with the frog was going to happen. Blaming her for that would be a bit like blaming Roy for Durkon getting killed, since that happened when he did something about a teammate getting eaten.

While I know this is from an early strip, this combined with Durkon's "My mum taught me tha' I should always take feelings like that, and bury them inna deep dark part o' my soul and nev'r ev'r talk about 'em again. That's tha dwarven way," I kind of suspect that Durkon's mother delivered a lot of "not meant to be applicable to every situation ever" lines that young Durkon misinterpreted and internalized way more than she ever realized. Which, if my guess is right, doesn't make her a terrible mother - it makes her a regular, fallible human - er, dwarven being who's trying to raise a kid alone while and one-handed who's trying to make sure he knows how to behave but can't read her child's mind.

[ti'esar]

Ooh, that's an interesting idea. And I don't know why people keep assuming that our biggest glimpse into Durkon's psyche until now won't be relevant to this Durkon-centric arc just because it's from an early strip. I mean, yeah, there are a few things in DCF like Roy carelessly slaughtering defenseless goblins that should probably be overlooked, but a lot of the cast's backstories were first established there.


You're a frickin' vampire, Malack! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0872.html)

He states outright that it had nothing to do with Belkar, and everything to do with the sense of betrayal he felt. Since Hilgya this was Durkon's first real out-of-partly friend he's made, and he turned out to be an undead abomination. Helping Belkar quickly became secondary to dealing with Malack. I think his reaction would have been exactly the same if he found Malack was drinking from a clearly willing person.

This is, in fact, explicitly not the case. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?272979-So-Malack/page5&p=14785214#post14785214)

[ORione]

While I know this is from an early strip, this combined with Durkon's "My mum taught me tha' I should always take feelings like that, and bury them inna deep dark part o' my soul and nev'r ev'r talk about 'em again. That's tha dwarven way," I kind of suspect that Durkon's mother delivered a lot of "not meant to be applicable to every situation ever" lines that young Durkon misinterpreted and internalized way more than she ever realized. Which, if my guess is right, doesn't make her a terrible mother - it makes her a regular, fallible human - er, dwarven being who's trying to raise a kid alone while and one-handed who's trying to make sure he knows how to behave but can't read her child's mind.

Yeah, that sounds about right.

[Reddish Mage]

While I know this is from an early strip, this combined with Durkon's "My mum taught me tha' I should always take feelings like that, and bury them inna deep dark part o' my soul and nev'r ev'r talk about 'em again. That's tha dwarven way," I kind of suspect that Durkon's mother delivered a lot of "not meant to be applicable to every situation ever" lines that young Durkon misinterpreted and internalized way more than she ever realized. Which, if my guess is right, doesn't make her a terrible mother - it makes her a regular, fallible human - er, dwarven being who's trying to raise a kid alone while and one-handed who's trying to make sure he knows how to behave but can't read her child's mind.

I cannot see how Sigdi could ever teach Durkon regarding love to "always take feelings like that, and bury them inna deep dark part o' my soul and nev'r ev'r talk about 'em again" and call it the dwarven way. Durkon misinterpreting what she says to be that seems a bit of a stretch.

[DaggerPen]

I cannot see how Sigdi could ever teach Durkon regarding love to "always take feelings like that, and bury them inna deep dark part o' my soul and nev'r ev'r talk about 'em again" and call it the dwarven way. Durkon misinterpreting what she says to be that seems a bit of a stretch.

I could see, as an example, her telling the story of the death of Durkon's father as having died as part of a mission, and her as having to barrel along despite that, or even let him go off to certain death, because sometimes doing your duty means putting aside personal feelings for the sake of the mission, etc., and Durkon internalizing that as strongly as he seems to have internalized "don't help people without asking," which I doubt she meant to the extreme Durkon took it to.

(Note: there is no real evidence that Durkon's father died this way, it's just an example of a situation that may have resulted in her saying something like that.)

[Dracon1us]

kudos to mama Durkon...but this character arc is really dragging me down.

the priest of hela look like a lame c-list character

Giant, I love you. but "Now can we please resume saving the world" ?

please?
please?
pretty please?

[Porthos]

Giant, I love you. but "Now can we please resume saving the world" ?

please?
please?
pretty please?

Probably not. :smalltongue: :smallwink:

[Dracon1us]

Probably not. :smalltongue: :smallwink:


I know, I know. and I agree!

but I feel that we are all trapped with this lame priest of hel ... in a wonderful story with great epic and interesting villains, he is a giant road block.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

While I know this is from an early strip, this combined with Durkon's "My mum taught me tha' I should always take feelings like that, and bury them inna deep dark part o' my soul and nev'r ev'r talk about 'em again. That's tha dwarven way," I kind of suspect that Durkon's mother delivered a lot of "not meant to be applicable to every situation ever" lines that young Durkon misinterpreted and internalized way more than she ever realized. Which, if my guess is right, doesn't make her a terrible mother - it makes her a regular, fallible human - er, dwarven being who's trying to raise a kid alone while and one-handed who's trying to make sure he knows how to behave but can't read her child's mind.

I think this makes a lot of sense, and I want it to be proven by the next memories.

[Sange]

One thing this shows, I think, even if Durkoff existed before possessing Durkon, is that he has absolutely no experience.

[janusmaxwell]

Just made the connection. 953, When Belkar first smelled a rat and tried to call out Durkula on it. Durk helped out with the proper spell, without being asked. A few more instances like that of "Taking the Initiative" which is something that regular Durkon had to be "re-taught" how to do, and everyone will get wise that there's someone else in Durkon's body.

A few more instances of this, with the parasite spirit not being able to see connections in Durkons memories which have/will influence his behavior which the team is aware of and he'll be outted.

[pendell]

Just made the connection. 953, When Belkar first smelled a rat and tried to call out Durkula on it. Durk helped out with the proper spell, without being asked. A few more instances like that of "Taking the Initiative" which is something that regular Durkon had to be "re-taught" how to do, and everyone will get wise that there's someone else in Durkon's body.

A few more instances of this, with the parasite spirit not being able to see connections in Durkons memories which have/will influence his behavior which the team is aware of and he'll be outted.

Unlikely. It will be seen as character development by the rest of the party.

The way I see it, it is almost impossible for the party to leap to the conclusion that Durkon's body is possessed by a malign spirit which is only PRETENDING to be him ... to know this, they are going to either need some source of extraplanar knowledge, or Durkula is going to have to drop the ruse himself. And even if he did, I believe it 99% likely that the party would ask "Why? Why is Durkon betraying us?" Instead of "That isn't Durkon."

Whatever Durkon does, and however Durkon says, it will be explained either as normal character development or due to his change of status. You can't expect a man who is solely powered by negative energy to act in exactly the same way as a normal man, any more than you can expect a man with three beers in him to act in the same way as a sober man. But it's still the same man under influence -- it's not the same as an entirely different hostile spirit hijacking his body.

I frankly don't see how any of us in the audience would have reached that conclusion if Rich hadn't explicitly rubbed our noses in it in the last book. I don't see any way that Durkula can be tricked into admitting it, so absent some source of divine revelation I don't think the party will figure it out until the penny drops.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Keltest]

Unlikely. It will be seen as character development by the rest of the party.

The way I see it, it is almost impossible for the party to leap to the conclusion that Durkon's body is possessed by a malign spirit which is only PRETENDING to be him ... to know this, they are going to either need some source of extraplanar knowledge, or Durkula is going to have to drop the ruse himself. And even if he did, I believe it 99% likely that the party would ask "Why? Why is Durkon betraying us?" Instead of "That isn't Durkon."

Whatever Durkon does, and however Durkon says, it will be explained either as normal character development or due to his change of status. You can't expect a man who is solely powered by negative energy to act in exactly the same way as a normal man, any more than you can expect a man with three beers in him to act in the same way as a sober man. But it's still the same man under influence -- it's not the same as an entirely different hostile spirit hijacking his body.

I frankly don't see how any of us in the audience would have reached that conclusion if Rich hadn't explicitly rubbed our noses in it in the last book. I don't see any way that Durkula can be tricked into admitting it, so absent some source of divine revelation I don't think the party will figure it out until the penny drops.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Given that these are the OOTS forums, I suspect that a great many people would latch onto a theory about Durkon being possessed for one reason or another. And even if the comic continued exactly as it is now, minus the scenes where we actually see the spirit doing things in his head, we would still see Belkar go over the edge twice.

[Sange]

While I know this is from an early strip, this combined with Durkon's "My mum taught me tha' I should always take feelings like that, and bury them inna deep dark part o' my soul and nev'r ev'r talk about 'em again. That's tha dwarven way," I kind of suspect that Durkon's mother delivered a lot of "not meant to be applicable to every situation ever" lines that young Durkon misinterpreted and internalized way more than she ever realized. Which, if my guess is right, doesn't make her a terrible mother - it makes her a regular, fallible human - er, dwarven being who's trying to raise a kid alone while and one-handed who's trying to make sure he knows how to behave but can't read her child's mind.
I don't think the Saddest. Comic. Ever strip should be considered in regard as to Sigdi's personality, as Rich most likely did not have a clear image of Sigdi yet. At that point she was just a plot device.

[GigaGuess]

Not only that, but while Durkula notices individual memories he doesn't notice connections between them. He also doesn't notice the full meaning behind them, especially when it's not of interest such as a moral lesson. Additionally while Durkula chooses what to do with Durkon's memories, Durkon can choose to reveal particular memories. Durkon can use this to communicate with Roy by showing a memory or two connected memories with a special meaning that Durkula doesn't realize.


This is something I'm gathering here. A few things are falling into place here.
1.) Durkula's pretty easily bored. After a few "growing up" memories, he's already kinda "yadda yadda yadda"ing them, and potentially missing critical information.
2.) Durkula's lazy. He doesn't really look that far beyond memories given, so if Durkon volunteers memories, as long as it's not too easily given, he doesn't seem like he'll look a gift horse in the mouth.
3.) Durkula's not gathering/bothering with the emotional connections in the memories, and thus, isn't connecting them as a sequence of cause and effect, but rather as a series of snippets to gain information from, and finally
4.) Durkula can gain memories, but he can only go by the commentary Durkon gives.

Some WMG here, but this implies to me that Durkula can potentially vet the memories he provides to fit a narrative he wants to tell, give a bit of misleading information and potentially gain a toehold. Not much of one, and definitely only to be used once in a pretty critical moment, but something.

Also, while the speech pattern is something of note, it's not the primary thing Durkon's twigging into, as his revelation comes prior to that.

[Porthos]

Yeah, let's talk about this horrible, terrible parent for a second.

This woman, facing a decent amount of stress, has a precocious kid dancing around her when said kid accidentally causes (in her situation) incredibly valuable and necessary household items to smash to a million pieces.

What does this horrible, bad, parent do in reaction?

Well, first, she breaks out the Three Name Rule. :smallannoyed: And, even worse, snaps a small, tiny, insignificant little sentence saying look at the bad thing you've just done.

The monster. :smallmad:

Then, of all things, she calmly and visibly swallows her anger, and remembers that she's dealing with a kid. Her kid. The kid she loves more than anything. And so she flips on a dime to reassure him and try to impart some wisdom into him. She takes the time to comfort him and to let him know that, all things considered, this wasn't that bad. She also then encourages him to try to think of others first before doing what he thinks should be done.

Geez, when it's put that way, it's a miracle that Durkon turned out as well as he did!

What a terrible parent Sigdi turned out to be! :smallsigh:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/BuckGodot/Icons/icon_sarcasm.gif~original :smallwink:

[ti'esar]

And even if the comic continued exactly as it is now, minus the scenes where we actually see the spirit doing things in his head, we would still see Belkar go over the edge twice.

That's hardly proof of anything except that the vampirized Durkon has a nasty streak, though. I think a lot of people would come to the same conclusion as Roy: that's it's basically the same as V and Belkar's old prank wars.

[Keltest]

That's hardly proof of anything except that the vampirized Durkon has a nasty streak, though. I think a lot of people would come to the same conclusion as Roy: that's it's basically the same as V and Belkar's old prank wars.

Again, this being the OOTS forums, I don't think there is a scenario out there that doesn't explicitly state that Durkon is possessed that wouldn't result in people claiming he is still old Durkon.

[Lheticus]

sic

I thought we were past this and onto "Durkon is an incurable literalist who has a hard time not applying directions given to him to ABSOLUTELY ALL POSSIBLE SITUATIONS."

It kind of makes me wonder if the prophecy was the only reason he was sent away from the Dwarven Lands. (It's been established already that that prophecy was REAL, right?)

[ti'esar]

Again, this being the OOTS forums, I don't think there is a scenario out there that doesn't explicitly state that Durkon is possessed that wouldn't result in people claiming he is still old Durkon.

Believe me, I'm well aware of the nature of the forums. I'm just skeptical of the claim that Durkon's behavior so far would get most people to think he was possessed without needing to see into his head.

Although this is all hypothetical and debating it is kind of silly, really.

[Keltest]

Believe me, I'm well aware of the nature of the forums. I'm just skeptical of the claim that Durkon's behavior so far would get most people to think he was possessed without needing to see into his head.

Although this is all hypothetical and debating it is kind of silly, really.

Yeah, it is, but silly discussions are somewhat more interesting that pointing out that Durkon is in fact not passive.

[eusticepious]

Why did Hel's Priest fail to see the similarity between the two stories? It's because he was looking for a hack-and-slash story from the slimy-frog not a moral lesson. Durkon associated the two because he views himself in a moral battle with evil and is looking for moral lessons from people he trusts.

Noticing or failing to notice similarities between events / memories is a theme Rich likes in this story (or maybe just one I like to remark on). My favorite way it has played out so far is in which party-member remembers Blackwing exists and when. Very few forum-folk commented on the similarity between
strip 179 ("Liar, Liar") (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0179.html) and strip 674 ("The Elf who Cried Raven") (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0674.html). The similarity between these two strips is intentional, glaring, and part of Rich's story, how he is playing with us.

I'm eager for this narrative to resolve itself and just now learned that Rich plans for it to play out in a different context, between Durkon and Hel's high priest, strongly opposed characters in many ways.

[Bird]

Just made the connection. 953, When Belkar first smelled a rat and tried to call out Durkula on it. Durk helped out with the proper spell, without being asked. A few more instances like that of "Taking the Initiative" which is something that regular Durkon had to be "re-taught" how to do, and everyone will get wise that there's someone else in Durkon's body.

A few more instances of this, with the parasite spirit not being able to see connections in Durkons memories which have/will influence his behavior which the team is aware of and he'll be outted.
Durkon was re-taught, though. We've seen Durkon heal without being asked, snap a bunch of ents without being asked, etc. Durkula taking the initiative isn't enough to arouse suspicion--though the parasite is liable to slip in multiple ways.

[oppyu]

Unlikely. It will be seen as character development by the rest of the party.

The way I see it, it is almost impossible for the party to leap to the conclusion that Durkon's body is possessed by a malign spirit which is only PRETENDING to be him ... to know this, they are going to either need some source of extraplanar knowledge, or Durkula is going to have to drop the ruse himself. And even if he did, I believe it 99% likely that the party would ask "Why? Why is Durkon betraying us?" Instead of "That isn't Durkon."

Whatever Durkon does, and however Durkon says, it will be explained either as normal character development or due to his change of status. You can't expect a man who is solely powered by negative energy to act in exactly the same way as a normal man, any more than you can expect a man with three beers in him to act in the same way as a sober man. But it's still the same man under influence -- it's not the same as an entirely different hostile spirit hijacking his body.

I frankly don't see how any of us in the audience would have reached that conclusion if Rich hadn't explicitly rubbed our noses in it in the last book. I don't see any way that Durkula can be tricked into admitting it, so absent some source of divine revelation I don't think the party will figure it out until the penny drops.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

*cough* Large segments of the forum readership did reach that conclusion. You called us racists who failed to grasp one of the core concepts of OOTS.

[thumbprince]

I don't get the emphasis on something in the last panel

A good knock knock joke. Like the interrupting cow one.

[Reddish Mage]

Probably not. :smalltongue: :smallwink:


I know, I know. and I agree!

but I feel that we are all trapped with this lame priest of hel ... in a wonderful story with great epic and interesting villains, he is a giant road block.

I have to agree the plot is being bogged down. Over the last 20 strips we have gotten an unusual proportion of strips in which only two characters are having dialogue unless you count the flashback device. The flashbacks seem pretty detached not only from the external events but also from each other without a plot (either internal to the flashbacks or a connection to the greater story) to tie them together.

Despite the Giant's protestations that this is a character-driven story, by far the majority of the comic strips have advanced the plot in some significant way since the introduction of the Linear Guild way back in 43 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0043.html). Fortunately, I read the last panel as a sign the flashbacks have ended and the next strip we will reach Tinkertown.

[GAAD]

Yolo memes,

I just realized something. We need to add to my list:

Durkon is slowly losing his accent.

In panel 7 of the last page, Durkon says: "Yer gonna haf ta watch me tell tha same knock-knock joke about five hunnerd times in Primary School."

About.

Not. Aboot.

Note that Durkon normally utilizes two "O"'s instead of a "U" with that word.

Durkula, the colloquial term that I shall be using in the remainder of this post to describe the vampiric spirit acting as the High Priest of Hel and currently infesting the body of the dwarf Durkon Thundershield, vocalized one word in Durkon's accent in a sentence chock full of "unaccented" Common. A panel before that, Durkon vocalized one word he used to alter due to his accent in a sentence chock full of accented words.

In addition, we (and Durkon) are aware that once all of Durkon's memories are absorbed by the vampire, Durkon will enter "eternal dormancy". To reiterate, Durkon's memories are not being shown, but absorbed. Wouldn't it make sense if his accent was being absorbed (read: taken away from him) as well?

We know that the vampire is now slowly gaining access to Durkon's memories and accent. It would be aesthetically intriguing for Durkon to slowly lose his own verbal features AS Durkula gains them.

Hashtag,
GAAD.
I owe it to you guys to put SOMETHING in white text, as per my gimmick, but I couldn't find any ideas... Hey look, is that a demonic duck of some sort?!

[Keltest]

-snip-

Theres a couple things wrong with your theory. The first is that Durkon's accent is inconsistent at best. Pointing to any given example and saying "he always says X, but here he said Y!" doesn't mean anything as far as the plot is concerned, because Rich doesn't keep a dictionary of Durkon by his desk when he writes the character.

The second flaw is that no matter what accent he spoke with, dwarvish or "standard", it would be based on his memories of learning the language. Since dormancy is closer when he is lower on memories, he would be losing the ability to speak at all, rather than with an accent, because the same things that give him an accent also give him the ability to speak.

[Kornaki]

I only just noticed the internal struggles title also refers to Roy's fight with the frog.

You may now resume your regular programming.

[TheMiningDwarf]

Yolo memes,

I just realized something. We need to add to my list:

Durkon is slowly losing his accent.

In panel 7 of the last page, Durkon says: "Yer gonna haf ta watch me tell tha same knock-knock joke about five hunnerd times in Primary School."

About.

Not. Aboot.

Note that Durkon normally utilizes two "O"'s instead of a "U" with that word.

Durkula, the colloquial term that I shall be using in the remainder of this post to describe the vampiric spirit acting as the High Priest of Hel and currently infesting the body of the dwarf Durkon Thundershield, vocalized one word in Durkon's accent in a sentence chock full of "unaccented" Common. A panel before that, Durkon vocalized one word he used to alter due to his accent in a sentence chock full of accented words.

In addition, we (and Durkon) are aware that once all of Durkon's memories are absorbed by the vampire, Durkon will enter "eternal dormancy". To reiterate, Durkon's memories are not being shown, but absorbed. Wouldn't it make sense if his accent was being absorbed (read: taken away from him) as well?

We know that the vampire is now slowly gaining access to Durkon's memories and accent. It would be aesthetically intriguing for Durkon to slowly lose his own verbal features AS Durkula gains them.

Hashtag,
GAAD.
I owe it to you guys to put SOMETHING in white text, as per my gimmick, but I couldn't find any ideas... Hey look, is that a demonic duck of some sort?!

I believe the Eternal DormancyTM the hosts of vampires experience is more because once the vampire has enough knowledge on how to get by in the world they would stop talking to the host altogether like right now seems to stage where Durkula has to keep looking in the textbook because he doesn't know the answers off the top of his head.. only the textbook is Durkon. It would be interesting but I think it's unlikely that Durkula is going to become a fusion of Durkon and himself beyond simply sharing memories.

[DaggerPen]

Yolo memes,

I just realized something. We need to add to my list:

Durkon is slowly losing his accent.

In panel 7 of the last page, Durkon says: "Yer gonna haf ta watch me tell tha same knock-knock joke about five hunnerd times in Primary School."

About.

Not. Aboot.

Note that Durkon normally utilizes two "O"'s instead of a "U" with that word.

Durkula, the colloquial term that I shall be using in the remainder of this post to describe the vampiric spirit acting as the High Priest of Hel and currently infesting the body of the dwarf Durkon Thundershield, vocalized one word in Durkon's accent in a sentence chock full of "unaccented" Common. A panel before that, Durkon vocalized one word he used to alter due to his accent in a sentence chock full of accented words.

In addition, we (and Durkon) are aware that once all of Durkon's memories are absorbed by the vampire, Durkon will enter "eternal dormancy". To reiterate, Durkon's memories are not being shown, but absorbed. Wouldn't it make sense if his accent was being absorbed (read: taken away from him) as well?

We know that the vampire is now slowly gaining access to Durkon's memories and accent. It would be aesthetically intriguing for Durkon to slowly lose his own verbal features AS Durkula gains them.

Hashtag,
GAAD.
I owe it to you guys to put SOMETHING in white text, as per my gimmick, but I couldn't find any ideas... Hey look, is that a demonic duck of some sort?!

Interesting theory, but as someone who has spent a ludicrously long time helping out over at the Transcription of the Stick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?338747-The-Transcription-of-the-Stick) project, and who has, due to the Durkon translation policy, had to pick through his accent a few zillion times, I have to say - Durkon's accent is ludicrously inconsistent. Don't read too much into it. If there's a word Durkon has said more than once, I can probably find two separate pronunciations of it.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Durkon is boring and so is his back story.

This fell to the level of pointless filler for me after the first one or two Durkon-Durkula interactions.

[Pyron]

I think you misunderstand me. Im not saying it didn't affect him deeply, because it obviously did. What i'm saying is that his mother didn't intend for it to affect him that deeply, and that it wasn't an often repeated lesson. If it had been, there wouldn't have been a disconnect between the two memories we see at all; Durkon would have recognized the connection between what happened and how he was raised a long time ago (shortly after the frog incident, for example) rather than just now.

I'd argue that the lesson was repeated enough. Every weekly dinner party, he'd watched his mother clean up the place by herself and that same instinct to help was there. Only now it's suppressed by the doubt that his mother planted in his mind.

It reached the point where Durkon just stood there while another person was about to be eaten alive. It also explains his inaction on the Azurite refugee fleet, when his best friend was having a mental breakdown, but wouldn't do anything because V never asked for help.

Also, I would not assume that Durkon should have recognized the connection earlier. If this lesson scared him to the point of inaction when it came to a life-or-death situation, then it's not something we can assume is fixable with a quick 'oh yeah!'. Plus, he did not have a reason to think about it back then when Roy's pep talk suggested that Durkon's just not used to working in a team.


And she doesn't go straight to "I'm na helpless". She says "I can get 'em meself", which is an absolutely reasonable and polite way of refusing help. The yelling only starts when Durkon actually grabs the dishes she is holding, which is not acceptable behavior.

If she felt that grabbing the dishes was unacceptable, then she could have said "Don't grab the bowls in my hand" or "Your toppling the dishes" or "You'll hurt yourself" (because the dishes might fall and smack him in the face), all these phrases would have been more common in that situation.

Instead, in her anger, she screams that she's not helpless. Those are the first words that come out of her mouth, and it says a lot about her. It shows that deep down, she's a prideful woman who feels the need to accomplish everything on her own. Next, consider her cultural upbringing. Dying in a heroic battle is noble, and those who don't die in this fashion are dishonored. Perhaps, deep down, Sigdi fears that dying at an old age with her injury will have her judged in the afterlife as being dishonorable in the afterlife. Unless she can always prove that she's never helpless. Even when the only person in the room is her impressionable child.

This doesn't make her a monster. But it shows us how deep she's flawed and the impact it has on both her and her son. It shows that at times her pride overrides her parenting instincts. We also see that it's Durkon who paid the price during the toad battle.

Furthermore, if we accept that her pride and fear of a dishonorable death as a significant influence on Durkon's development and as a secret catalyst for his prophecy and adventure career. Then it hints of the ultimate tragedy that Sigdi, inadvertently, sacrificed her son's soul to save her own. It's a stretch, but quite thematic.

Finally, if we want to keep up with the arc's theme on self-fulfilling prophecies, then think about this. Child!Durkon never asked for help, but Sigdi helped him and made things worse. Ironic if you think about it.

[Keltest]

I'd argue that the lesson was repeated enough. Every weekly dinner party, he'd watched his mother clean up the place by herself and that same instinct to help was there. Only now it's suppressed by the doubt that his mother planted in his mind.

It reached the point where Durkon just stood there while another person was about to be eaten alive. It also explains his inaction on the Azurite refugee fleet, when his best friend was having a mental breakdown, but wouldn't do anything because V never asked for help.

Also, I would not assume that Durkon should have recognized the connection earlier. If this lesson scared him to the point of inaction when it came to a life-or-death situation, then it's not something we can assume is fixable with a quick 'oh yeah!'. Plus, he did not have a reason to think about it back then when Roy's pep talk suggested that Durkon's just not used to working in a team.

Again, missing my point. Durkon clearly internalized it, that was the whole point of the latest strip, but Durkon's Mother did not regularly repeat the lesson. Had it been something she repeated at the end of every week when he tried to help, he would have quickly realized how much it affected him, because he had so much outright exposure to the lesson.




If she felt that grabbing the dishes was unacceptable, then she could have said "Don't grab the bowls in my hand" or "Your toppling the dishes" or "You'll hurt yourself" (because the dishes might fall and smack him in the face), all these phrases would have been more common in that situation.

Instead, in her anger, she screams that she's not helpless. Those are the first words that come out of her mouth, and it says a lot about her. It shows that deep down, she's a prideful woman who feels the need to accomplish everything on her own. Next, consider her cultural upbringing. Dying in a heroic battle is noble, and those who don't die in this fashion are dishonored. Perhaps, deep down, Sigdi fears that dying at an old age with her injury will have her judged in the afterlife as being dishonorable in the afterlife. Unless she can always prove that she's never helpless. Even when the only person in the room is her impressionable child.

This doesn't make her a monster. But it shows us how deep she's flawed and the impact it has on both her and her son. It shows that at times her pride overrides her parenting instincts. We also see that it's Durkon who paid the price during the toad battle.

Furthermore, if we accept that her pride and fear of a dishonorable death as a significant influence on Durkon's development and as a secret catalyst for his prophecy and adventure career. Then it hints of the ultimate tragedy that Sigdi, inadvertently, sacrificed her son's soul to save her own. It's a stretch, but quite thematic.

Finally, if we want to keep up with the arc's theme on self-fulfilling prophecies, then think about this. Child!Durkon never asked for help, but Sigdi helped him and made things worse. Ironic if you think about it.


I think you and I have a different definition of "scream". She didn't even appear to raise her voice. And given that Durkon's expressed motivations for helping her were that he had two arms to carry dishes with, it is still absolutely an appropriate thing to say to get him to stop and to show that his "help" is absolutely unappreciated.

edit: for that matter, she did tell him to let go before saying that she wasn't helpless.

[Catticus]

946 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html) - "He struggles within me, but he cannot resist providing me with his memories when I call upon them. He is powerless to influence our plans."

948 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html) - "The sooner I absorb all your memories, the sooner I can stop talking to you."

954 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html) - "I've seen enough of your memories to know how much you value the Rules."

957 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html) - "Sorry! The memory you searched for could not be found."

962 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0962.html) - "So, what, now you see something and a memory just pops up?"

930 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0930.html) - "Don't look at me like that, there were like a ton of hints on this one."

I'd wager my last stash (of catnip, you degenerate) that the answer's in the strip. If only I understood Dwarven. Or Giant.

[ORione]

Instead, in her anger, she screams that she's not helpless.

:smallconfused: What about Sigdi in the second panel looks angry or scream-y to you?

[Pyron]

:smallconfused: What about Sigdi in the second panel looks angry or scream-y to you?

Perhaps 'angry' was not the right word I was looking. So, I will concede on that point.

Still, out of the things she could have said, out of all the things that could go wrong, she chooses to remind Durkon that she not helpless over other, more reasonable, warnings. I still say that's significant.

[unbjorn]

Also, I'm a little confused with Durkon's endgame here.

He he doesn't necessarily have one yet, but now has some information for how he can use the HPOH's weaknesses. One goal would be to tell the OOTS that he isn't really himself right now. For example, he might string together selective memories of Shojo, Nale masquerading as Elan, and Tarquin, all in order to make a connection about people who aren't what they appear to be on the surface. And so on, Durkon (like this forum) has lots of free time to work out all kinds of scenarios along these lines.

[Porthos]

Perhaps 'angry' was not the right word I was looking. So, I will concede on that point.

Still, out of the things she could have said, out of all the things that could go wrong, she chooses to remind Durkon that she not helpless over other, more reasonable, warnings. I still say that's significant.

Perhaps I was too sarcastic in my prior post*, so let me tell you why I think that Sigdi was being an EXCELLENT parent.

* On second thought, nope. :smalltongue:

In a moment of stress and losing-cool, she immediately turned to comforting Durkon and reassuring him.

That some may agree or disagree with the wisdom imparted is really neither here nor there, as that's a matter of personal taste. She wasn't thinking of herself when she bent down to Durkon. She was making sure that her son knew that things weren't really that bad.

That is, again, excellent parenting.

That Durkon is so blessedly Lawful that he might have taken that advice to an unhealhty degree is, I would wager, on Durkon not Sigdi.

Sorry, but not only do I fail to see the example of bad parenting here, I think it is the absolute and complete opposite. Hence my sarcastic post prior.

Now when it comes to her saying "I'm not helpless" I think we're really entering the realm of nitpicking here. Especially as by that point, Durkon was literally grabbing them out of her hands. There simply isn't time to construct a 'reasonable warning'.

Besides, I fail to see what is so wrong about that sentence in the first place. While trying to stay out of Real Life discussion, I think, and I can say this from some second hand personal experience, that having a healthy ego is pretty darn important to a person in Sigdi's situation.

Saying that she's not helpless is in fact probably a positive from where I am sitting, not a negative. If only for self-confidence reasons.

Still, as I said, she pivoted extremely quickly from a inward comment (I'm not helpless) toward an outward one (It's all right, you just wanted to help). If we're gonna get into analyzing character I'd say that says a heck of a lot more about her than anything else.

[Timy]

It seems that the memory of Roy being swallowed is not in the same continuity than the rest.

Otherwise, why Roy-being-swallowed would have his belt of giant strength and not in other panels ?

OR it means that memory is a fun thing and things can be altered (consciously or not) which could mean that Durkon is able to make FALSE memories !

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It seems that the memory of Roy being swallowed is not in the same continuity than the rest.

Otherwise, why Roy-being-swallowed would have his belt of giant strength and not in other panels ?

OR it means that memory is a fun thing and things can be altered (consciously or not) which could mean that Durkon is able to make FALSE memories !

Or it's an art error and doesn't undermine the message of the rest of the strip.

[theNater]

Whatever Durkon does, and however Durkon says, it will be explained either as normal character development or due to his change of status.
There are a few things Durkula could do that would, at the very least, require a great deal of explaining. Worshipping Hel, rather than simply going non-theistic, or ceasing to enjoy Parcheesi (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html), for example.

Large segments of the forum readership did reach that conclusion.
That conclusion was not supported by evidence at that time, and the Order has not gained significant evidence since.

I have to agree the plot is being bogged down. Over the last 20 strips we have gotten an unusual proportion of strips in which only two characters are having dialogue unless you count the flashback device. The flashbacks seem pretty detached not only from the external events but also from each other without a plot (either internal to the flashbacks or a connection to the greater story) to tie them together.
Even if we count the flashbacks as part of a conversation between Durkon and Durkula, that brings the total to 5 of the last 20 being a two-character dialogue only. I am not convinced that is unusually high; what's the overall proportion of such strips?

I'm also not sure why you think the flashbacks aren't connected to the greater story. If nothing else, the party is headed in the general direction of dwarven lands, where most of the people in the flashbacks dwell. I strongly suspect we'll be seeing some of the characters we're meeting through the flashbacks in the present.

It reached the point where Durkon just stood there while another person was about to be eaten alive.
Have you met Roy? This guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html). Right here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0355.html). Y'know, him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0430.html). And again (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0686.html). Plus one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html).

Dude would absolutely get eaten alive on purpose if he believed there was a tactical advantage to it.

Instead, in her anger, she screams that she's not helpless. Those are the first words that come out of her mouth...
That is, as Keltest has pointed out, not true. You are pretty heavily editing events in an attempt to make them fit your desired narrative. The Giant has a good narrative going; why not try to follow it, instead?

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Great character piece, but am I the only one thinking this strip should probably have been later in this particular arc? It seems like Durkon's setting Durkula up for a mistake which will reveal him, but we're going to have to wait a very long time for that to happen.

As for setting Dukula up with little things, if Durkon tries it, sooner or later Durkula will realise what's going on - likely long before anyone in the Order does.

[Keltest]

Great character piece, but am I the only one thinking this strip should probably have been later in this particular arc? It seems like Durkon's setting Durkula up for a mistake which will reveal him, but we're going to have to wait a very long time for that to happen.

As for setting Dukula up with little things, if Durkon tries it, sooner or later Durkula will realise what's going on - likely long before anyone in the Order does.

If the HPoH understood any mistakes that Durkon was tricking him into making, he wouldn't need Durkon's input and memories to pretend to be him at all.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

If the HPoH understood any mistakes that Durkon was tricking him into making, he wouldn't need Durkon's input and memories to pretend to be him at all.
It's not the mastakes Durkon tricks him into making, it's other people's responses to those mistakes alerting Durkula to them. That's the issue.

IMO, Durkon basically needs to string Durkula along until he can bring the hammer down on him in one massive event that leaves the Order in no doubt as to what's going on, and what they need to do about it - not create a little string of minor things that add up which the people may or may not notice, and if they do, Durkula's now tipped off, can potentially cover it up, and still has Durkon's soul to do unpleasant things to in retribution.

[AyuVince]

This is a consistent theme in the comic--immortality stops your character from developing, because being confronted with your mortality is what forces you to think about your legacy and your impact on the world. Right-Eye accused Redcloak of not having ever matured since he first put on the Crimson Mantle. Xykon has been unable to develop interest in any new activities since he became a lich, leaving him with no possible recourse for pleasure but sadism (since his non-violent interests like terrible coffee are now denied to him). Tsukiko discovered the hard way that wights, despite being intelligent undead, are not capable of learning real affection. The spirits in Celestia assume forms that reflect their inner selves upon death and remain static in them forever (e.g. baby Eric Greenhilt, young and promiscuous Sara Greenhilt, curmudgeonly old Eugene Greenhilt, powerful warrior Horace Greenhilt). The personality of everyone who is immortal is frozen*, but everyone who is living and mortal has the capacity to change--even seemingly incorrigible and unrepentant murderers like Belkar.

That's an amazing analysis! I think most readers (at least myself) have not made that connection. In fact, if this knowledge is the key to defeating Durkula, it might also help against the other immortal villains you have mentioned.

[Jay R]

Great character piece, but am I the only one thinking this strip should probably have been later in this particular arc?

Since I don't know what's coming next, and the author does, there is no way I could know where this should go as well as the author does.

I understand the desire to critique a literary work, but I have to read it first, just as I can't tell if a splotch of red is in the wrong place on a painting currently being painted.

[tiercel]

Nice to see Durkon pulling a Granny Weatherwax on his vampiric controller here ;) (But then, this tends to happen any time you listen to someone's accent for too long, especially from *inside their own head*.)

The tables begin to turn....

[Snails]

I like Varthonai's analysis, too, but Roy's Archon strongly implies that people can change in the afterlife, but it is a very slow process. Unless the Snarl rampages through the afterworlds or Thor is killed by Hel, time does not seem to be much of a concern.

[Snails]

Great character piece, but am I the only one thinking this strip should probably have been later in this particular arc? It seems like Durkon's setting Durkula up for a mistake which will reveal him, but we're going to have to wait a very long time for that to happen.

The last strip hinted at the potential for Durkon to game the HPoH. This strip proves as much, and, equally important, Durkon's explicitly realizes the possibility.

But it is a waiting game for Durkon. Durkon cannot force the issue.

As you said, he does not want to trip up the HPoH on a bunch of minor issues. My guess is he wants to be ready for a minor trip up that sends the HPoH running for info, and deliver info that will be horrifically misinterpreted by an inhuman being.

[Mith]

Nice to see Durkon pulling a Granny Weatherwax on his vampiric controller here ;)

Which book are you thinking of here? Lords and Ladies?

[Happy Gravity]

Which book are you thinking of here? Lords and Ladies?
Carpe Jugulum.

[BrotherMirtillo]

Nice to see Durkon pulling a Granny Weatherwax on his vampiric controller here ;) (But then, this tends to happen any time you listen to someone's accent for too long, especially from *inside their own head*.)

Which book are you thinking of here? Lords and Ladies?

Probably any of the books with Borrowing would work. I haven't read Carpe Jugulum, but I've read Lords and Ladies, Equal Rites, and Hat Full of Sky, and they'd all work for that new-body-altering-the-mind relationship. (Actually, so would Thief of Time. Pratchett seems to be fond of that dynamic.)

And now, I'm picturing Thor doing Durkon a favor by hanging a sign on the vampire cleric's back: "I ATEN'T DEAD."

[DaggerPen]

So I just crunched some numbers, and honestly, this past sequence really isn't that slow. We spent 16 updates mostly inside Durkon's head or on the Mechane, compared to the 11 updates Book 2 spent with the Order piddling around in some podunk town before even getting a hint of the Starmetal quest, the 21 Book 3 spent before they even got to Sunken Valley, the 15 Book 4 spent just in Roy's afterlife, and the whopping 25 Book 5 spent with the OOTS searching for Girard's Gate, only to find that it wasn't even there.

Mind you, you're under no obligation to like this plotline, but as book openings go, we're fairly standard here.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Since I don't know what's coming next, and the author does, there is no way I could know where this should go as well as the author does.

I understand the desire to critique a literary work, but I have to read it first, just as I can't tell if a splotch of red is in the wrong place on a painting currently being painted.
I don't know what's coming next (although I know I'll enjoy it), but I'm fairly sure that after setting up Durkon to become a vampire since pretty much the start of the comic, and bringing Hel in as another side, The Giant's not going to waste all that by having the Order discover what's going on with Durkon, beat Durkula out of him and resurrect him in the next 5-10 strips.

In fact, I'm not totally convinced Durkula will be gone by the end of this book. :smallwink:

But by bringing this up now, right near the start of the Durkula arc, we're now all waiting for Durkon to force Durkula into a slip very soon, and by the time it actually happens, we'll have forgotten about this strip (we're probably looking at something like 2016 at the earliest), so it'll be a little jarring, rather than having everyone thinking "oh yes, finally Durkon's plan pays off...".

Where as, had it come up, say halfway through the strips for book 6, when it seems that Durkula's got full control, we get a minor victory that gives hope, but also highlights the peril, and is a lot closer to the pay off.

But hey, The Giant's writing this, it's his story, he can tell it how he wants.

[ti'esar]

So I just crunched some numbers, and honestly, this past sequence really isn't that slow. We spent 16 updates mostly inside Durkon's head or on the Mechane, compared to the 11 updates Book 2 spent with the Order piddling around in some podunk town before even getting a hint of the Starmetal quest, the 21 Book 3 spent before they even got to Sunken Valley, the 15 Book 4 spent just in Roy's afterlife, and the whopping 25 Book 5 spent with the OOTS searching for Girard's Gate, only to find that it wasn't even there.

Mind you, you're under no obligation to like this plotline, but as book openings go, we're fairly standard here.

As has been said more than once, it's almost certainly the update speed skewing people's perceptions. Although looking at archived discussion threads, I know Sandsedge at least did seem to get a lot of "get on with it already" complaints of its own.

[Jay R]

But by bringing this up now, right near the start of the Durkula arc, we're now all waiting for Durkon to force Durkula into a slip very soon, and by the time it actually happens, we'll have forgotten about this strip (we're probably looking at something like 2016 at the earliest), so it'll be a little jarring, rather than having everyone thinking "oh yes, finally Durkon's plan pays off...".

Where as, had it come up, say halfway through the strips for book 6, when it seems that Durkula's got full control, we get a minor victory that gives hope, but also highlights the peril, and is a lot closer to the pay off.

But hey, The Giant's writing this, it's his story, he can tell it how he wants.

The story might be something very different than you expect. Durkon may try to use this in the next few strips, fail, and make things look more hopeless.

You can't decide what the right time to introduce this will be until after you know how and when it will be used.

[theNater]

It seems like Durkon's setting Durkula up for a mistake which will reveal him...
I can't agree with this assessment. Durkon is honest, almost to a fault, while Durkula is a creature literally created to deceive. For Durkon to attempt trickery would be pitting his weakness against the vampire's strength, which is not likely to end well. If Durkon's going to succeed, he needs to strike where Durkula is weak.

So where is Durkula weak? Well, this comic reveals that he can't understand the motivations behind behavior. Even when he's got it practically spelled out for him, he can't make those connections. Durkon, on the other hand, does know what makes people tick. He understands, and can use that understanding to provide guidance and advice. Indeed, this is one of the key duties of a Cleric.

Durkon's not going to trick Durkula, he's going to try to convert him. To transform him from an immoral worshipper of dishonor and death into some sort of decent person. And that has to start now, because

:belkar:: People don't just change who they are inside in an instant....It takes time, so you don't even know you're changing. Until one day, you're just a little different than you used to be and you can't even tell what the hell happened.

That's why the somethin' is so interesting. It was just days ago that Durkula was calling Durkon's accent ridiculous, and today he doesn't even realize that it's becoming his own.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The story might be something very different than you expect. Durkon may try to use this in the next few strips, fail, and make things look more hopeless.

You can't decide what the right time to introduce this will be until after you know how and when it will be used.

I agree. If your going to find fault in the comic, find it once that part of the comic has played out, not in assumptions you are making. The course of the comic could be very different from what you expect.

[tiercel]

Probably any of the books with Borrowing would work. I haven't read Carpe Jugulum, but I've read Lords and Ladies, Equal Rites, and Hat Full of Sky, and they'd all work for that new-body-altering-the-mind relationship. (Actually, so would Thief of Time. Pratchett seems to be fond of that dynamic.)

And now, I'm picturing Thor doing Durkon a favor by hanging a sign on the vampire cleric's back: "I ATEN'T DEAD."

In particular, I was thinking about Carpe Jugulum, not just because of "headology" but specifically because when Granny gets turned into a vampire (?) she manages to turn the tables by having Borrowed her own blood, thus "I ain't been vampired. You've been Weatherwaxed," and the vampires find themselves taking on her traits, yearning for tea, for instance...

Compare to Durkon here and his satisfaction that he can make Durkula slip into his own accent, not as a matter of camouflage to the outside world, but as a private slip when mentally communicating with/interrogating Durkon: that Durkula is actually potentially starting to become "Durkoned."

Also compare to Harry Dresden of the Dresden Files and his own mental passenger, particularly because not only does Dresden manage to "corrupt"/alter the copy of Lasciel the Temptress that winds up in his head after picking up one of the Denarii, but winds up getting her to take a mental bullet for him at a pivotal moment

If anything, this is the famous Nietzsche quote, "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you," run in reverse; the idea that good can "corrupt" evil just as evil can corrupt good (if, presumably, with more difficulty).

[ORione]

Durkon's not going to trick Durkula, he's going to try to convert him. To transform him from an immoral worshipper of dishonor and death into some sort of decent person.

Huh. Now, that's an interesting theory.

[sabremeister]

Durkon is boring and so is his back story.

This fell to the level of pointless filler for me after the first one or two Durkon-Durkula interactions.

This is Durkon being made interesting. If you prefer a "boring" character, go ahead and ignore the strips inside Durkon's head. I, and everyone else who likes characters with depth in the stories they read, will pay attention to them, as this is exactly how a character is given depth - with a background that tells us his motivations and viewpoints, ideas and philosophies.

After having recently completed a complete read-through of the comic, I can say there are at most five strips that can accurately be described as pointless filler: Mailcall, Return of Mailcall, Intermission, and the In Memoriam strips for Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson. Everything else contributes to either the story development, or character development.

[brian 333]

Is it weird that I liked all five of those? I mean, come on, who doesn't love a good expose on the doily.

[LadyEowyn]

I'd say there's more than those 5 that are basically filler - the one-note gag strips, for example. Including a lot of stuff from Book 1. I don't think you can make much of an argument that the Order looking for a bathroom is plot-crucial.

However, I'm really enjoying the current book. Character-development-rich comics (along with some action) like the ones we've been getting are excellent. They're a long ways ahead of strips like the "cart of gophers" pun-humour from Sandsedge. (I like funny comics, but puns are generally the lowest common denominator of humour.) Sandsedge did have a good character moments with Haley, and an excellent one with V.

[Dracon1us]

the most interesting character in this arc is durkon mother...that highlights how much lame and forgettable is the priest of hela

[factotum]

Is it weird that I liked all five of those? I mean, come on, who doesn't love a good expose on the doily.

Contrary to what some people would have you believe, "Filler" isn't a synonym for "Any strip I didn't personally like". :smallsmile: Filler can be entertaining so long as you take it as it is and don't expect massive story revelations or plot movement from it.

[Lheticus]

Contrary to what some people would have you believe, "Filler" isn't a synonym for "Any strip I didn't personally like". :smallsmile: Filler can be entertaining so long as you take it as it is and don't expect massive story revelations or plot movement from it.

If a word, ie "filler", is used commonly to contextually mean "any strip I didn't like/thought was boring/etc," does that not mean that in terms of connotation, it IS in fact a synonym for that? :smallwink:

Isn't evolving language wonderful? XD

[Jay R]

If a word, ie "filler", is used commonly to contextually mean "any strip I didn't like/thought was boring/etc," does that not mean that in terms of connotation, it IS in fact a synonym for that? :smallwink:

That depends on how commonly it's used that way. Evolving language does not make it impossible to use language incorrectly. If most people start using the word that way, and its original meaning becomes lost or muddled, then it can eventually evolve to include that meaning. "Sophisticated", "gentleman", "pompous" and many other words have lost their original meanings and evolved to new ones. But as long as most people, and all professional writers, know that filler means material that fills gaps, rather than continuing the story, then using it as something else is a mistake, not a new definition.


Isn't evolving language wonderful? XD

Yes, it is. But it's also slower than some people realize.

[brian 333]

Contrary to what some people would have you believe, "Filler" isn't a synonym for "Any strip I didn't personally like". :smallsmile: Filler can be entertaining so long as you take it as it is and don't expect massive story revelations or plot movement from it.

I meant by my comment that I think the comic would be less than it is without that 'filler' by whatever definition you give it. The five cited filler comics were not necessary and didn't drive the plot, but they were essential to making the comic what it is: a light-hearted romp through The Giant's playground.

Sure, the story is getting better as we see deeper and richer plot and character developments, but I hope Rich doesn't abandon the idea of fun for the sake of fun. And that's what the 'filler' material was.

If I got a vote, I'd vote for having another 'Questions' page, and preferably right in the middle of a deeply intense plot point. I'd advocate we see a side-quest full of silliness, just to remind us that, hey, it's a freakin' comic, not Lord Of The Rings.

Hmm, the Mechane needs repairs, so it may be a perfect time to side-quest for something silly, like a Ring of Jeans Summoning.

[Smolder]

At this point, any comic that doesn't involve characters shouting the names of their D&D abilities at each other will be accused of being filler.

[Pyron]

Again, missing my point. Durkon clearly internalized it, that was the whole point of the latest strip, but Durkon's Mother did not regularly repeat the lesson. Had it been something she repeated at the end of every week when he tried to help, he would have quickly realized how much it affected him, because he had so much outright exposure to the lesson.

We don't know if Sidgi repeated the lesson or not. But I get your point. You believe that if the lesson was repeated, then Durkon would have recognized it sooner because... the lesson was repeated. :smallsigh:

But, it doesn't matter if the lesson was said once, repeated or just reinforced. Neither scenario won't change the fact that the lesson sunk it or the impact it had.


I think you and I have a different definition of "scream". She didn't even appear to raise her voice. And given that Durkon's expressed motivations for helping her were that he had two arms to carry dishes with, it is still absolutely an appropriate thing to say to get him to stop and to show that his "help" is absolutely unappreciated.

edit: for that matter, she did tell him to let go before saying that she wasn't helpless.

You are correct. She did say 'Let go!' With an exclamation point (which is often used to show strong feeling or an increase in volume). But it is nitpicking, and it doesn't change the words that followed.



Have you met Roy? This guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html). Right here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0355.html). Y'know, him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0430.html). And again (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0686.html). Plus one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html).

Dude would absolutely get eaten alive on purpose if he believed there was a tactical advantage to it.

:roy: "New party rule: From now on, if one member of the team is being eaten, go ahead and assume that you should do something about that”



That Durkon is so blessedly Lawful that he might have taken that advice to an unhealhty degree is, I would wager, on Durkon not Sigdi.

There are other characters who are even more lawful than Durkon, but I doubt they would take Sigdi's advice to any unhealthy extremes. Lawful != Dumb.

Now, if you meant to imply Durkon fail to recognize that her advice doesn't apply in all situations based on who he is then you need to ask how he become that way? Thor did not slap this personality on him when he was growing up. Nor did Durkon wake up and said “I'm going to be so lawful that I'll take my mother's advice to unhealthy extremes”. It developed over his lifetime by everything around him. Including the biggest influence of them all: mommy.

Sidgi's advice crippled Durkon's development, and she never corrected it. I'm not letting her off the hook.

I also don't agree with the 'he's so lawful' argument because I re-examined the instances where Durkon was assertive in the comic. There were all the times he healed people without being asked, the Cliffport Battle with the Treants, rescuing Lein at the Azurite docks. Heck, he told Haley that she needed to be assertive and keep herself together when Roy died.

This is the blessedly lawful Durkon that we come to know during the comics. His passiveness during V's meltdown is the only noteworthy exception (that I can think of), but for the most part, he's not the person who needed to ask, and ask again (just to make sure it's okay) before helping people. Now that I understand this, I feel that I should give credit to the excellent parent in the strip.

:roy:

When Durkon was indecisive during the frog battle, Roy worked with him and helped him to become a more assertive team mate. Roy corrected Sigdi's mistake and taught Durkon that sometimes, you can't always wait until somebody asks for help. Something that wouldn't be possible if Durkon's alignment turned him into a lost cause.

I think it's wrong to blame a character's fatal flaw on their alignment. Saying that Durkon is too crippling passive because he's lawful is like saying Haley's trust issue stem from her being chaotic. That's just a cop-out.


Now when it comes to her saying "I'm not helpless" I think we're really entering the realm of nitpicking here. Especially as by that point, Durkon was literally grabbing them out of her hands. There simply isn't time to construct a 'reasonable warning'.

Besides, I fail to see what is so wrong about that sentence in the first place. While trying to stay out of Real Life discussion, I think, and I can say this from some second hand personal experience, that having a healthy ego is pretty darn important to a person in Sigdi's situation.

Saying that she's not helpless is in fact probably a positive from where I am sitting, not a negative. If only for self-confidence reasons.

It's not so much whether or not the sentence is wrong. My point is that it's significant. It's a subtle hint that speaks volume about her character. If you're going to argue that the sentence is a positive, then it doesn't enter the scope of nitpicking.

But, I still see it as a negative, because she already knows that she's not helpless. She just hosted a great dinner party and was complemented on her cooking. This is something she does every week. When Durkon was a toddler, she earned the gratitude of a dwarven worker, whose life she just saved from death. I think she has plenty of self-confidence.

But you know who else needed self-confidence? The little boy who wanted to help his mother. As a growing, impressible child nurturing that self-confidence is also very important. I don't buy that Durkon's help would have made things harder, not when Sidgi could have given him a task that he could handle (like gathering the silverware). The best, it still maintains her esteem, because she'd be doing the majority of the work, but it's let's her son in. So everyone wins.

But, when she protested that she's not helpless, she needed to defend her pride. She sacrificed her son's self-confidence for the sake of her ego. That's when it crossed the line from healthy to unhealthy. It also suggests that the advice she gave to Durkon was partially motivated to serve her needs. By telling her son that he should only help when asked to, Sidgi is able to do all the hard work she wants to without worrying about her son stepping in.


Still, as I said, she pivoted extremely quickly from a inward comment (I'm not helpless) toward an outward one (It's all right, you just wanted to help). If we're gonna get into analyzing character I'd say that says a heck of a lot more about her than anything else.

The thing is, if we're going to analyze a character, then we need to look at everything.

A good writer once said, “You reveal who you really are under stress—stress doesn't magically turn you into someone else unrelated to who you usually are. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16575337&postcount=79)“ The fact that she used these words when there was no time to construct a proper warning means that this is the first thought that crossed her mind, and the possibility that Durkon could get hurt or the dishes could break are thoughts that needed to be construct.

The fact that she composed herself to reassure her son. Well, I won't say that it's not important. I think it shows us the person Sigdi wants to be. She wants to be a good mother (I will buy that), but she has her inner demons. And they interfere with that goal.

[Jay R]

At this point, any comic that doesn't involve characters shouting the names of their D&D abilities at each other will be accused of being filler.

Any comic that is not about the main characters and the main quest is filler. So unless it has Baron Pineapple or Frudu and the Ming, then it's filler.

[Porthos]

*not gonna address the rest because I sense we're already starting to enter the territory of arguing around in circles*


Sidgi's advice crippled Durkon's development, and she never corrected it. I'm not letting her off the hook.

I disagree. 'Crippled' is FAR too strong of a word. Especially since, IMO, Durkon turned out to be a pretty good person.

If we're going to blame Sidgi for Durkon occassionally being too cautious (and, if you haven't guessed, I don't [or rather, it's not a 'blame' thing with me]), then we also have to credit her with how well Durkon turned out in other areas.

See, the whole problem I have with all of this goes back to your opening salvo:


I think this is an example of his mother's bad advice and poor parenting.

I see nothing in strip 963 as 'poor parenting'. In fact I maintain it is EXCELLENT parenting. Might have had unforeseen consequences, but, eh. We'll find out in the fullness of time.

I realize you disagree. Fair enuf.

Adding in things like "scaring" (seriously... scaring?) is simply too much. It should be reserved for people (at best) like Eugene or (at worst) Tarquin. In fact, doing a compare and contrast I think would go a pretty darn long way as to who is 'supposed' to be seen as a 'bad' parent in the strip by the narrative.

Call me crazy, but I have seen nothing, and I do mean nothing, that would suggest that Sidgi was a 'bad' or 'poor' parent. She's not perfect. She's not a parent who could see all ends. But since when do those exist?

Now in the future maybe we'll see more of Sidgi that will change my mind and move me closer to your camp. It's possible. But now? Right now? I think you are putting way too much weight on what is pretty much just showing how parts of Durkon's personality were shaped.

Finally, if Durkon had actually shown some level of being upset at his mother's advice in retrospect, or upset at how his mother treated him at any point in the narrative, then I'd agree that we'd have more fuel for the 'poor/bad parent' argument. But, again, so far at least it's been the exact opposite.

You might not like the advice that Durkon was given. That doesn't make it bad parenting though.

tl;dr: If we're gonna take Sidgi to task for Durkon's 'negative' qualities, we also have to credit her for Durkon's 'positive' ones. Besides, I don't feel we should consider Sidgi a bad parent until, you know, Durkon starts thinking/saying she was a bad parent. After all, he's probably in the best position to judge of all of us.

...

Besides Rich that is. :smalltongue:

[Pyron]

I see nothing in strip 963 as 'poor parenting'. In fact I maintain it is EXCELLENT parenting. Might have had unforeseen consequences, but, eh.


but, eh.

The unforeseen consequence is that a man could have died when Durkon had the ability to prevent that. I believe Sidgi should have foreseen this. She's an ex-sergeant, so she's no stranger to combat. She acted on instinct when she saved the miner from falling to said and it's what anyone would have done. If this wasn't her background, then I might be less critical.


Besides, I don't feel we should consider Sidgi a bad parent until, you know, Durkon starts thinking/saying she was a bad parent. After all, he's probably in the best position to judge of all of us.

I do not believe that my opinions, feeling or thoughts should be based on the say-so of another character. That leads itself to the appealing to authority fallacy. I rather draw conclusions based on my observations from what I see in the comic. The purpose of good art is to make us think, not to be told what to think. :smallwink:


If we're gonna take Sidgi to task for Durkon's 'negative' qualities, we also have to credit her for Durkon's 'positive' ones.

Nope. Sidgi should only get credit the positive/negative qualities that she had a hand in shaping. Would you give Tarquin credit for Elan's positive qualities?

[Keltest]

The unforeseen consequence is that a man could have died when Durkon had the ability to prevent that. I believe Sidgi should have foreseen this. She's an ex-sergeant, so she's no stranger to combat. She acted on instinct when she saved the miner from falling to said and it's what anyone would have done. If this wasn't her background, then I might be less critical. So youre saying that she should have predicted that Durkon would take the lesson in so deeply that he was still taking it literally as an adult with experiences of his own to draw on? Yeah, im pretty sure she cant be faulted for not predicting that. Now, maybe if Durkon had shown signs for the rest of his life with her that he was taking it literally, but based on what we know now she cant be blamed.

[Porthos]

Would you give Tarquin credit for Elan's positive qualities?

Since Tarquin and Elan barely had any interaction, no. No I wouldn't. :smallsmile: But since it seems that Sigdi was central to shaping Durkon's worldview, yes, I am going to presume that she had a hand in shaping them.

Why wouldn't I?


So youre saying that she should have predicted that Durkon would take the lesson in so deeply that he was still taking it literally as an adult with experiences of his own to draw on? Yeah, im pretty sure she cant be faulted for not predicting that. Now, maybe if Durkon had shown signs for the rest of his life with her that he was taking it literally, but based on what we know now she cant be blamed.

Let's not forget that Durkon was ticketed for life in the priesthood. He didn't become an adventurer until he was booted out of the Dwarven lands.

It's perhaps possible (and now I am most certainly specualting on next to no evidence) that she tried to steer him away from the violent life of a soldier/adventurer and toward something more peaceful. Yet still very Dwareven. If so, this sort of life lesson might not be out of place.

[Lheticus]

It's not so much whether or not the sentence is wrong. My point is that it's significant. It's a subtle hint that speaks volume about her character. If you're going to argue that the sentence is a positive, then it doesn't enter the scope of nitpicking.

But, I still see it as a negative, because she already knows that she's not helpless. She just hosted a great dinner party and was complemented on her cooking. This is something she does every week. When Durkon was a toddler, she earned the gratitude of a dwarven worker, whose life she just saved from death. I think she has plenty of self-confidence.

But you know who else needed self-confidence? The little boy who wanted to help his mother. As a growing, impressible child nurturing that self-confidence is also very important. I don't buy that Durkon's help would have made things harder, not when Sidgi could have given him a task that he could handle (like gathering the silverware). The best, it still maintains her esteem, because she'd be doing the majority of the work, but it's let's her son in. So everyone wins.

But, when she protested that she's not helpless, she needed to defend her pride. She sacrificed her son's self-confidence for the sake of her ego. That's when it crossed the line from healthy to unhealthy. It also suggests that the advice she gave to Durkon was partially motivated to serve her needs. By telling her son that he should only help when asked to, Sidgi is able to do all the hard work she wants to without worrying about her son stepping in.

(sic)

The fact that she composed herself to reassure her son. Well, I won't say that it's not important. I think it shows us the person Sigdi wants to be. She wants to be a good mother (I will buy that), but she has her inner demons. And they interfere with that goal.

I can't help but notice nobody seems to be addressing this part of Pyron's argument. I won't either--in fact I quite agree with the portion of it that I've quoted here. Is it just me or is it a commonplace tactic on this forum for anyone arguing against someone to completely gloss over significant swathes of someone's argument without even acknowledging that they are a portion of said argument? This is far from the first time I've seen something like that.

[Porthos]

I can't help but notice nobody seems to be addressing this part of Pyron's argument. I won't either--in fact I quite agree with the portion of it that I've quoted here. Is it just me or is it a commonplace tactic on this forum for anyone arguing against someone to completely gloss over significant swathes of someone's argument without even acknowledging that they are a portion of said argument? This is far from the first time I've seen something like that.

I'm not addressing it because I felt I already had (at least to my mind). And I dislike repeating myself over and over again. :smallwink: