Making a Beholder CR10-ish

[Blackhawk748]

So we are playing an E6 game and my character has a beholder in his background (it stole an artifact that his grandfather was protecting, it may not still have it but we still will prbly fight it) So how would we go about downgrading the standard Beholder to CR 10 while still maintaining its Huge size?

[Forrestfire]

Nitpick: Beholders are large.

I think that the first step would be to do something about the Save or Dies and Save or Loses it has. Downgrading them to damage or debuffs is probably a good idea. Making it unable to Violent Thrust with its telekinesis eye ray might also be a good thing. Also, lower the amount of shots it can put out a turn, probably.

[Novawurmson]

Hrm. The young (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-young-cr-1) template from Pathfinder could help for one step.

Alternatively, have you thought about altering the encounter? Adding help to the PC's side, giving the PCs favorable terrain, etc.?

[Blackhawk748]

Nitpick: Beholders are large.

You are correct, why did i think the were Huge? Whatever.

I was thinking of changing Disintegrate to Scorching Ray, Fear, Inflict Mod, Sleep, and Slow can stay, with lowered CL obviously. So we need to replace Finger of Death, Telekinesis, Charm Monster, Charm Person and Flesh to Stone.

[PraxisVetli]

Is there a reason a Gauth won't work?

[Silva Stormrage]

If an E6 party can take down a balor they should be able to handle a beholder :smalltongue:

Depending on your party optimization level and such. Getting a scroll of ray deflection (Artificer) would be ludicrously important and valuable.

[Blackhawk748]

Well heres our party comp (so we can have the Beholder at the proper level)

Me: Dwarven Knight, i have Shield Ward and im pretty much trying to be an iron wall
Orc Barbarian/Rogue, TWF with standard Rage, hes gonna keep taking Rogue levels
Cleric, has the Mercy and Luck Domains, also to a KoK Class sub so he has lower hit points but all Conjuration Healing Spell are one spell level lower for him. Hes the Ultimate Healmonkey.
Aasimar Sorc, Impromptu Metamagic so he can use Fell animate and he has Corpse Crafter and Destructive Retribution, hes gonna minion-mance and get one level of Wild Mage.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Director and an Eye of the Deep in Lords of Madness are both CR 8. The Eye of the Deep is aquatic, and the Director typically has some sort of dominated vermin that it will use as a mount, in which case it would need a huge size vermin, if you're going for size.

A Director with a Giant Wasp advanced to 15 HD (CR 6) should be an EL 9 encounter, and if you give them both the elite array it would be an EL 10 encounter.

[PraxisVetli]

A Director and an Eye of the Deep in Lords of Madness are both CR 8. The Eye of the Deep is aquatic, and the Director typically has some sort of dominated vermin that it will use as a mount, in which case it would need a huge size vermin, if you're going for size.

A Director with a Giant Wasp advanced to 15 HD (CR 6) should be an EL 9 encounter, and if you give them both the elite array it would be an EL 10 encounter.

I for one generally second everthing Biffo (can I call you Biffo?) says.

[Tvtyrant]

I would replace the two Save or Die rays with weaker spells (Vampiric Touch and Bestow Curse) so that the Beholder is not just ganking your party members.

Drop the CL down by a little bit, and give its rays a 1 turn delay so it isn't firing like the Strobelight of Death.

[Bronk]

I think it would be easier to work it into the story more. Maybe when the beholder stole the artifact from the PC's ancestor, it was gravely wounded and a number of it's eye stalks were cut off. Maybe that also decreased its charisma score, so the DCs are lower. In the meantime, it might have tried to fix itself up using some of the abilities that it could get from the Occular Gems from Dragon 313 (mind fog, poison, ray of exhaustion) that negate the stalk's original function.

[Blackhawk748]

I think it would be easier to work it into the story more. Maybe when the beholder stole the artifact from the PC's ancestor, it was gravely wounded and a number of it's eye stalks were cut off. Maybe that also decreased its charisma score, so the DCs are lower. In the meantime, it might have tried to fix itself up using some of the abilities that it could get from the Occular Gems from Dragon 313 (mind fog, poison, ray of exhaustion) that negate the stalk's original function.

Well thats definitely an idea, ill discuss that with my DM.

Still trying to think of a good replacement for Flesh to Stone, while we can deal with it in E6 ive never liked using, let alone fighting against, a flat save or "die". As the fight can be decided by one bad roll, its not really my idea of fun, though Poison fits a bit better.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Still trying to think of a good replacement for Flesh to Stone, while we can deal with it in E6 ive never liked using, let alone fighting against, a flat save or "die". As the fight can be decided by one bad roll, its not really my idea of fun, though Poison fits a bit better.

You could make it like the 5e Cockatrice version: Fort save vs entangled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#entangled)+immobilized, and if that save was failed they make a Fort save one round later vs being petrified for 24 hours. It's not a permanent, but it completely removes them from the fight and basically guarantees their death if the party loses the battle.

[Blackhawk748]

You could make it like the 5e Cockatrice version: Fort save vs entangled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#entangled)+immobilized, and if that save was failed they make a Fort save one round later vs being petrified for 24 hours. It's not a permanent, but it completely removes them from the fight and basically guarantees their death if the party loses the battle.

Wow, i did something similar to this to the Basilisk, glad to see WoTC did it too.

[Telok]

Actually a 6th level party can take down a beholder if they are well prepared for it and can gain surprise.

Beholders are slow (20' move), weak (10 Str), have a lousy Reflex save (+5), and have an 11 touch AC. Smokesticks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#smokestick) can be used to shut down it's eyes and nets can keep it near the melee people. Just make sure to surround it with people under Silence spells and it has to guess every shot with the 50% miss chance. If you don't have anyone who can Blind Fight you can always have your spellcasters unload Ref 1/2 damage spells right above your heads. Also, poison. Five or six hits of Purple Worm poison ought to put it down pretty well and is surprisingly affordable.

Not saying it isn't dangerous, but if you have expendable minions and can get a decent touch AC it's quite doable.