PF Gunslinger help

[Oracle_of_Void]

So, I'm joining a campaign where the DM wants us to create level five characters in Pathfinder. I wanted to make a duel-wielding gunslinger. The DM has already approved the use of advanced firearms like revolvers and allows any Paizo splatbook. He runs a very optimized type of game; I'm still a little new to "min-maxing" so I would appreciate some advice on creating my character. The guidelines are:
-Level 5
-Equipment based on the Wealth-by-level chart
-Magic items are ok as long as I can afford them
-Duel-wields pistols (or rifles in you can efficiently pull that off I guess :smallbiggrin:
-Only use Paizo splat
-Maximum optimization without being silly (i.e., I don't want a Pun-Pun type of situation)

I am open to play any race, as long as its optimal. Thanks in advance for all your help! :smallsmile:

[AvatarVecna]

Before I can present a decent build for this character, I've got a few questions:

1) How does your DM feel about 3rd party options posted on the pfsrd? I don't think it's technically paizo stuff, but it's not too far off...

2) What's your DM's take on free action reloading; namely, do they think it should require a free hand to load in between attacks?

3) Are you set on the dual-gun idea, or is a solid sniper a worthwhile option, provided its capable (read: cheesy) enough for your tastes?

4) Are you asking for a lvl 5 build, or a lvl 20 build that's playable from 5 to 20?

EDIT: For the sake of my own irritating curiosity, I also must ask if your DM is willing to allow 3.5 material. I know it states paizo stuff; I'm asking for the sake of having as much info as possible; if he was willing to allow a feat or two, it could heavily impact any gunslinger build.

[grarrrg]

2) What's your DM's take on free action reloading; namely, do they think it should require a free hand to load in between attacks?

He did say Revolvers are allowed, so he shouldn't have to reload in combat for a while yet (once he builds up enough extra attacks though...)

[Oracle_of_Void]

Before I can present a decent build for this character, I've got a few questions:

1) How does your DM feel about 3rd party options posted on the pfsrd? I don't think it's technically paizo stuff, but it's not too far off...

2) What's your DM's take on free action reloading; namely, do they think it should require a free hand to load in between attacks?

3) Are you set on the dual-gun idea, or is a solid sniper a worthwhile option, provided its capable (read: cheesy) enough for your tastes?

4) Are you asking for a lvl 5 build, or a lvl 20 build that's playable from 5 to 20?

EDIT: For the sake of my own irritating curiosity, I also must ask if your DM is willing to allow 3.5 material. I know it states paizo stuff; I'm asking for the sake of having as much info as possible; if he was willing to allow a feat or two, it could heavily impact any gunslinger build.
1.) My DM was pretty firm about only Paizo when I asked him

2.)I think he would be okay with it as long as I could do it, RAW-wise

3.)I am sorta fond and attached to the idea of two guns. I just like the idea because it sounds fun.

4.)Level 5 build, but the campaign should last a while so it should be usable up to twenty, just in case.

5.) Asked my DM, he'd be willing to let some 3.5 in as long as it doesn't break the game.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Point-buy? 15, 20, 25?
Rolling method? what stats you have to work with make a difference. Unless you have four arms you can't dual wield rifles, they are always two handed weapons regardless of size.

Your first feats should be Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Deadly-Aim, even ignoring armor firing into melee can be a big drawback, especially when added to the cover bonus from shooting through an allies square. This gives you one more feat or two more feats if human. At this level rapid-reload isn't necessary. If you stick with revolvers you could probably put it off until 9th.

The problem with dual wielding is, reloading you need two free hands to reload and while weapon cords let you hold onto to your guns when you drop them. "a dangling weapon may interfere with finer actions." and really having a couple of 4lb guns attached to each hand by a 2ft cord sounds like it could interfere with a lot of things.

Then you have the feat investment, and paying to enchant two guns instead of one. Its a big mess.

[Ryulin18]

I'm interested to see how this goes. You sound like you've got a nice DM!

A few things I could recommend would be Pistolero (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/pistolero) and human for increasing grit points by a 1/4 ever level.

I will be watching, because gunslingers are fun!

[Oracle_of_Void]

Point-buy? 15, 20, 25?
Rolling method? what stats you have to work with make a difference. Unless you have four arms you can't dual wield rifles, they are always two handed weapons regardless of size.

Your first feats should be Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Deadly-Aim, even ignoring armor firing into melee can be a big drawback, especially when added to the cover bonus from shooting through an allies square. This gives you one more feat or two more feats if human. At this level rapid-reload isn't necessary. If you stick with revolvers you could probably put it off until 9th.

The problem with dual wielding is, reloading you need two free hands to reload and while weapon cords let you hold onto to your guns when you drop them. "a dangling weapon may interfere with finer actions." and really having a couple of 4lb guns attached to each hand by a 2ft cord sounds like it could interfere with a lot of things.

Then you have the feat investment, and paying to enchant two guns instead of one. Its a big mess.

The stat generation is 25 point buy. And I was thinking that to remedy the reload problem during long combats, maybe I could have multiple guns, like 4 or 5? One runs out, drop it and pull another out. Just an idea. Also, thanks! That is a pretty good start. I've only made melee type bruisers before, so I don't know which ranged combat feats are good.

[Lord Vukodlak]

The stat generation is 25 point buy. And I was thinking that to remedy the reload problem during long combats, maybe I could have multiple guns, like 4 or 5? One runs out, drop it and pull another out. Just an idea. Also, thanks! That is a pretty good start. I've only made melee type bruisers before, so I don't know which ranged combat feats are good.

Look at the price of a revolver(though you make them at half) and the price of of enchanting weapons and ask yourself would this really work?

[Oracle_of_Void]

Look at the price of a revolver(though you make them at half) and the price of of enchanting weapons and ask yourself would this really work?

I admit that money-wise, I might not have enough money to have the optimal enchantment on my guns. However, I still want some ideas on builds. The feats and pistolero archetype are very good starts for my consideration. I can always enchant my guns later with some questing money. Thanks for the responses.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Later level feats clustered shot to help with DR, Improved Precise Shot to take care of cover bonuses, far-shot will reduce the range increment penalties by half.

Oh and before I forget, Revolvers are not LIGHT weapons so dual wielding is a -4 penalty not -2.

[AvatarVecna]

The gunslinger has two main advantages: firstly, it's a pretty SAD class, only really needing Dex to be good, and Wis to be great; secondly, it's a full BAB class that reliably targets Touch AC. All things said and done, this combat style is designed for pure DPS, plain and simple. I've built ECL 20 characters that could take down Lucifer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/devils-unique/devil-lucifer-prince-of-darkness-tohc) in a single round, provided they were cheesed to hell and they got the drop on him. Everything less powerful just got blown away, no question.

Dual-wielding effectively is tricky, but not impossible. To do it by RAW, you need two things: free action reloading, and an extra hand of some sort. For the first, you need Rapid Reload and possibly alchemical cartidges; for the second, you probably need to dip. It's possible that the tiefling can qualify: one of their alternate racial features os a prehensile tail that you DM may or may not deem sufficient. If not, I doubt that a vestigial arm will be insufficient: dip alchemist for two levels with the vivisectionist archetype; youll get some extra fort and ref, some potion making skills, mutagens, 1 S die, and one discovery (vestigial arm).

Human is a good race, for the bonus feat; goblin's good too, since they get Dex +4 and a feat allowing them to wield medium firearms. If it's acceptable, tiefling is obviously preferable.

To dual wield with skill, you need rapid reload, point blank shot, deadly aim, precise shot, and two-weapon fighting. To be really good, weapon focus, rapid shot, and far shot are great as well. Because of the feats required to be good, a fighter 2 dip gets a couple feats. Getting you five feats by 5th level. Finally, if
your DM will allow 3.5 feats, i can't recommend 3.5 far shot enough: it increases your touch AC range.

Now for the more controversial point: if you can dual wield and free action reload, the revolver is inferior to the double barreled pistol. Double your attacks for an attack penalty; pretty powerful.

I apologize for not posting a build to 20; I'm in a game and am currently posting from my phone. Once i get home, i can properly research and build based on this character concept.

[Oracle_of_Void]

The gunslinger has two main advantages: firstly, it's a pretty SAD class, only really needing Dex to be good, and Wis to be great; secondly, it's a full BAB class that reliably targets Touch AC. All things said and done, this combat style is designed for pure DPS, plain and simple. I've built ECL 20 characters that could take down Lucifer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/devils-unique/devil-lucifer-prince-of-darkness-tohc) in a single round, provided they were cheesed to hell and they got the drop on him. Everything less powerful just got blown away, no question.

Dual-wielding effectively is tricky, but not impossible. To do it by RAW, you need two things: free action reloading, and an extra hand of some sort. For the first, you need Rapid Reload and possibly alchemical cartidges; for the second, you probably need to dip. It's possible that the tiefling can qualify: one of their alternate racial features os a prehensile tail that you DM may or may not deem sufficient. If not, I doubt that a vestigial arm will be insufficient: dip alchemist for two levels with the vivisectionist archetype; youll get some extra fort and ref, some potion making skills, mutagens, 1 S die, and one discovery (vestigial arm).

Human is a good race, for the bonus feat; goblin's good too, since they get Dex +4 and a feat allowing them to wield medium firearms. If it's acceptable, tiefling is obviously preferable.

To dual wield with skill, you need rapid reload, point blank shot, deadly aim, precise shot, and two-weapon fighting. To be really good, weapon focus, rapid shot, and far shot are great as well. Because of the feats required to be good, a fighter 2 dip gets a couple feats. Getting you five feats by 5th level. Finally, if
your DM will allow 3.5 feats, i can't recommend 3.5 far shot enough: it increases your touch AC range.

Now for the more controversial point: if you can dual wield and free action reload, the revolver is inferior to the double barreled pistol. Double your attacks for an attack penalty; pretty powerful.

I apologize for not posting a build to 20; I'm in a game and am currently posting from my phone. Once i get home, i can properly research and build based on this character concept.
Am I reading that right? That if I dual-wield double-barreled pistols, I pretty much get to attack the same guy 4 times? Of course, without free action reload, the reload time gets a bit silly. I appreciate all the info. Personally, I don't like the alchemist class, so I think that a Goblin with two fighter levels, medium revolvers will do me well. Trust me, I'd like an extra arm for reloading, but I am too biased about alchemists :smallbiggrin:. Its okay about the build to 20, I think I've got all I need now :smallsmile:. You've all been a great help!

[AvatarVecna]

I suggested alchemist because it has the most synergy; is the witch class accetable? It gets prehensile hair that can act as a third arm.
If you dont go the extra hand route, then dual revolvers is superior. That said, dual double barreled revolvers with rapid shot means potentially 6 attacks, although the penalty is significant enough for even the gunslinger to respect it.

[Feint's End]

Since Tiefling for Prehensile Tail has been mentioned I have to mention Vanara which are straight better for a Gunslinger. Boni to your 2 pumpstats and penalty to your dumpstat AND you got a prehensile for the realoading issue (again talk to your DM though ... it should work in theory).

[Oracle_of_Void]

@AvatarVecna: I'm not sure about the witch either....Did you say SIX shots? Hmm... I'll have to reconsider my biases.

@Feint's End: I've never heard of these guys, but you make a good point. On the one hand, I like the Goblin's +4 DEX but I need to use a feat if he's going to sue medium firearms. On the other hand, the Vanara tail might let me free action reload but the DEX bonus is smaller. I'll talk to my DM and see his ruling on this whole tail-reloading business.

[Feint's End]

@Feint's End: I've never heard of these guys, but you make a good point. On the one hand, I like the Goblin's +4 DEX but I need to use a feat if he's going to sue medium firearms. On the other hand, the Vanara tail might let me free action reload but the DEX bonus is smaller. I'll talk to my DM and see his ruling on this whole tail-reloading business.

Well the Goblin just has 2 higher dex as opposed to easier reload with the vanara (if your DM oks it). Honestly if you already sit at 20 2 more are not gonna be that great compared to the other option. The medium firearms isn't really good ... the increase in damage is small and you have to pay a feat to get there ... absolutely not worth it.

Also obligatory link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-vanaras) for Vanara

[Oracle_of_Void]

Well the Goblin just has 2 higher dex as opposed to easier reload with the vanara (if your DM oks it). Honestly if you already sit at 20 2 more are not gonna be that great compared to the other option. The medium firearms isn't really good ... the increase in damage is small and you have to pay a feat to get there ... absolutely not worth it.

Also obligatory link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-vanaras) for Vanara

Alright, I called my DM, we had a chat, and we have a ruling: A tail will let me free action reload for revolvers but not for any early firearms, including double-barreled pistols :smallfrown:. The way he sees it, to reload a revolver, the Vanara would use his tail to reach into his pocket, grab one of these things http://www.shootingillustrated.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/xW7575_SI_0200CLIP.jpg and stick in the gun. While to reload a black-powder gun would still take a standard action with rapid reload. So I guess Vanara would be better on that end.... Hmm...

[Feint's End]

Alright, I called my DM, we had a chat, and we have a ruling: A tail will let me free action reload for revolvers but not for any early firearms, including double-barreled pistols :smallfrown:. The way he sees it, to reload a revolver, the Vanara would use his tail to reach into his pocket, grab one of these things http://www.shootingillustrated.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/xW7575_SI_0200CLIP.jpg and stick in the gun. While to reload a black-powder gun would still take a standard action with rapid reload. So I guess Vanara would be better on that end.... Hmm...

That seems to be a very favourable ruling. Vanara would be a great choice for you then ... basically the best since it makes free action realoading really easy without investing into any other shenanigans.

Tiefling with Prehensile Tail is an option if you don't like the thought of playing a monkey but has subpar stats.

[AvatarVecna]

Considering your DM's ruling, I'd agree: unless you're willing to ignore your bias, free action reloading with double-barreled pistols isn't happening.

Also, to clarify on the 6 shots: let's say you were dual-wielding double-barreled pistols and using the rapid shot feat. You have a choice every round to either fire individual barrels, and make 3 attacks (standard+TWF+Rapid Shot), or you can turn each of those attacks into two attacks, making for a total of 6.

Vanara looks perfect, given the current DM rulings. And honestly, the advantage of Goblin isn't just the +4 Dex, or the Goblin Gunslinger feat, it's also the size bonus to attacks: when you're dual-wielding one-handed weapons, every bonus is worthwhile.

I'm gonna put together a sample build real quick and show off what it could do every 5 levels.

EDIT: Also, this is wrong.


While to reload a black-powder gun would still take a standard action with rapid reload.

Reloading a two-handed firearm is a full round action, or a standard action if you have Rapid Reload. Reloading a one-handed firearm (such as the double-barreled pistol) is normally a standard, or a move with Rapid Reload. Throw in some alchemical cartridges (which also reduce the reload time) and it now takes a free action to reload, allowing someone with an early one-handed firearm to reload in between shots; the only way to do this with a two-handed firearm is to be a gunslinger with the musket master archetype.

That stuff above? Pure, 100% RAW legal free action reloading; to do it while dual-wielding, you need an extra hand (hence the prehensile tail/vestigial hand/hair tentacle suggestions).

[Oracle_of_Void]

Considering your DM's ruling, I'd agree: unless you're willing to ignore your bias, free action reloading with double-barreled pistols isn't happening.

Also, to clarify on the 6 shots: let's say you were dual-wielding double-barreled pistols and using the rapid shot feat. You have a choice every round to either fire individual barrels, and make 3 attacks (standard+TWF+Rapid Shot), or you can turn each of those attacks into two attacks, making for a total of 6.

Vanara looks perfect, given the current DM rulings. And honestly, the advantage of Goblin isn't just the +4 Dex, or the Goblin Gunslinger feat, it's also the size bonus to attacks: when you're dual-wielding one-handed weapons, every bonus is worthwhile.

I'm gonna put together a sample build real quick and show off what it could do every 5 levels.

EDIT: Also, this is wrong.



Reloading a two-handed firearm is a full round action, or a standard action if you have Rapid Reload. Reloading a one-handed firearm (such as the double-barreled pistol) is normally a standard, or a move with Rapid Reload. Throw in some alchemical cartridges (which also reduce the reload time) and it now takes a free action to reload, allowing someone with an early one-handed firearm to reload in between shots; the only way to do this with a two-handed firearm is to be a gunslinger with the musket master archetype.

That stuff above? Pure, 100% RAW legal free action reloading; to do it while dual-wielding, you need an extra hand (hence the prehensile tail/vestigial hand/hair tentacle suggestions).

Gotcha. Thanks for the correction. Eagerly awaiting your build :smallsmile:.

[Deldramir]

I just built a 4th level Ratfolk Pistolero Gunslinger as a back up character for a game. 25 point buy system. Have a look it might help - Worth noting we're allowed flaws. I thought about going two pistols but I honestly couldn't be bothered with the alchemist cheese and once I thought <Edit: By thought I of course mean stole blatantly from The Good, The Bad and the Ugly> of the name there was no way he wasn't going to be Ratfolk. Also the Gunslinger feat is pretty OP, and the Deft Shootist deed does the same thing (with more pre-reqs) so if your DM doesn't allow the Gunslinger feat I would use your fighter bonus feats to build toward Deft Shootist.

*********

Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez otherwise known as ‘The Rat’
Ratfolk Gunslinger
Pistolero (Archetype)

Favoured Class: Gunslinger: Add a +1/2 bonus on initiative checks when the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point.

Ability Score Racial Traits: Ratfolk are agile and clever, yet physically weak. They gain +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, and –2 Strength

Stats:
Str: 12 +1
Dex: 19 +4
Con: 14 +2
Int: 13 +1
Cha: 5 -6
Wis: 14 +2

Initiative - 7

Wanted in Graysmere for High Treason for the theft of advanced weaponry.

Languages - Common, Dwarven

Skills: 5 per lvl
Acrobatics - 4+5+3 = 12
Craft Alchemy 1 rank - 1+1+3 = 5
Climb - 1+4+3 = 8
Knowledge Local - 1+5+3 = 9
Perception - 2+5+3+1 = 11
Stealth - 4+1+4 = 9
Disable Device - 4+3+1+3 = 11
Sleight of Hand - 4+1+3 = 8

Traits:

Criminal - Disable Device +1 and a class skill
(Campaign) Alert and Aware - +2 Initiative and +1 Perception

Flaws:
Non-combatant -2 melee
Pathetic - 2 Cha

Feats:
Bonus Gunsmithing
Bonus Weapon Proficiency (One handed firearms)
1st - Precise Shot
1st - Point Blank
1st - Rapid Shot
3rd - Weapon Focus (Pistol)
4th (bonus) - Gunslinger (SRD feat - Pathfinder Chronicles) or Dodge (for deft shootist deed is Chronicles stuff isn’t allowed)
5th - Deadly Aim
6th - Fighter level - bonus combat feat - Combat Reflexes
7th - Fighter level - bonus combat feat -Snap Shot (UC) and (Rapid Reload)
9th - Improved Snap Shot (UC)

[Lord Vukodlak]

Here's something of mine for an up coming campaign I'll be in where advanced firearms are also allowed.
So in an upcoming campaign, how upcoming is yet to be determined I've decided to play a goblin gunslinger. The campaign begins at level 4

History Gunn was never quite like other goblins he was born with a horribly deformity a fully developed sense of taste this might have led to his eventual starvation if he hadn't taught himself how to cook. However he was eventually studying a cook book and expelled from his tribe into the neighboring cavern where the tribe's Hobgoblin overlords lived. After a series of many beatings they taught him how to read so that he might actually use those cook books he simply stared at and guessed how things went based on the illustrations.

After a few years of beatings and cooking meals for his Hobgoblin overlords the entire tribe was wiped out by a group of adventurers. Gunn attempted to hide in a cupboard but the chain around his neck leading to a post gave away his hiding spot. However the half-orc of the group a gunslinger named Borfang took pity on him and made Gunn his personal Valet. From Borfang, he learned the discipline of the gunslinger.... well the skills of a gunslinger anyway and eventually set off on his own to be an adventurer, which concludes the first thirteen years of his life.

Personality: Having suffered years of abuse at the hands of his fellow and usually larger goblin cousins Gunn has lost his taste for inflicting it... but only after it was pointed out the Bugbear and Hobgoblin game of "goblin conkers" was quite similar to the game "rabbit conkers"

Gunn maintains his goblin love fire and explosions in addition to a ravenous hunger though his tastes now demand both quality and quantity. So he adventures to find new and exotic foods and good excuses to blow things up that will earn him praise rather then scorn.

His weapon whom he calls Herbert (though it actual name is Bob). Was originally a Flintlock though after an unexpected explosion it was melted down and the metal used in the construction of a revolver. According to Gunn, Herbert misses the feel of naked powder exploding inside him and that his new rotating cylinders tickle.



Strength
09
Dexterity
20
Constitution
14


Intelligence
12
Wisdom
14
Charisma
08



Goblins have -2 Strength, +4 Dexterity and -2 Charisma.
The Campaign is 20 Point Buy however additional points can not be gained by dumping stats ie I can't drop my charisma or strength any lower to use those points in something else.
the 4th level ability point went into dexterity.


Acrobatics 4 Ranks
Climb 1 Rank
Craft:Alchemy 1 Rank


Heal 4 Ranks
Perception 4 Ranks
Profession(cook) 1 rank


Stealth 4 Ranks
Survival 4 Ranks
Swim 1 Rank


Ride 1 Rank


Table's were codes were generated using the following link (http://www.teamopolis.com/tools/bbcode-table-generator.aspx)
Traits: Highlander[for stealth] and maybe Black Powder Fortune.

Feats; Point Plant Shot(1st), Precise Shot(3rd) and Deadly-Aim(4thb)
Languages: Common, Goblin and Orc

[AvatarVecna]

Here's the build, and the various snap-shots.


Race: Goblin (Over-sized Ears)

Attributes (before adjustments): 7/18/12/12/17/7 (25 pb)
Attributes (ECL 1): 5/22/12/12/17/5

Archetypes:
Fighter (Trench Fighter)
Alchemist (Vivisectionist)



ECL
Class Levels
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Attributes
ECL Feats
Bonus Feats
HP
Skills


1
Fighter 1
+1
+2
+0
+0
-
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
1d10+2
Perception 1/Stealth 1/Use Magic Device 1


2
Fighter 2
+2
+3
+0
+0
-
-
Rapid Shot
2d10+4
Perception 2/Stealth 2/Use Magic Device 2


3
Fighter 2/Gunslinger 1
+3
+5
+2
+1
-
Rapid Reload (double-barreled pistols)
-
3d10+5
Acrobatics 1/Craft (Alchemy) 1/Perception 3/Stealth 3/Use Magic Device 3


4
Fighter 2/Gunslinger 1/Alchemist 1
+3
+8
+5
+1
Wis +1
-
-
3d10+1d8+6
Acrobatics 2/Craft (Alchemy) 2/Perception 4/Stealth 4/Use Magic Device 4


5
Fighter 2/Gunslinger 1/Alchemist 2
+4
+8
+6
+1
-
Two-Weapon Fighting
-
3d10+2d8+7
Acrobatics 3/Craft (Alchemy) 3/Perception 5/Stealth 5/Use Magic Device 5


6
Fighter 3/Gunslinger 1/Alchemist 2
+5
+9
+6
+2
-
-
-
4d10+2d8+9
Acrobatics 3/Craft (Alchemy) 3/Perception 6/Stealth 6/Use Magic Device 6


7
Fighter 4/Gunslinger 1/Alchemist 2
+6
+9
+6
+2
-
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Quick Draw
5d10+2d8+11
Acrobatics 3/Craft (Alchemy) 3/Perception 7/Stealth 7/Use Magic Device 7


8
Fighter 4/Gunslinger 2/Alchemist 2
+7
+10
+7
+2
Dex +1
-
-
6d10+2d8+12
Acrobatics 3/Craft (Alchemy) 3/Fly 2/Perception 8/Stealth 8/Use Magic Device 8


9
Fighter 4/Gunslinger 3/Alchemist 2
+8
+10
+7
+3
-
Weapon Focus (Double-barreled Pistol)
-
7d10+2d8+13
Acrobatics 3/Craft (Alchemy) 3/Fly 4/Perception 9/Stealth 9/Use Magic Device 9


10
Fighter 4/Gunslinger 4/Alchemist 2
+9
+11
+8
+3
-
-
Weapon Specialization (Double-barreled Pistol)
8d10+2d8+14
Acrobatics 3/Craft (Alchemy) 3/Fly 6/Perception 10/Stealth 10/Use Magic Device 10


11
Fighter 4/Gunslinger 5/Alchemist 2
+10
+11
+8
+3
-
Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing)
-
9d10+2d8+15
Acrobatics 3/Craft (Alchemy) 3/Fly 8/Perception 11/Stealth 11/Use Magic Device 11


12
Fighter 5/Gunslinger 5/Alchemist 2
+11
+12
+9
+4
Dex +1
-
-
10d10+2d8+17
Acrobatics 3/Craft (Alchemy) 3/Fly 8/Perception 12/Stealth 12/Use Magic Device 12


13
Fighter 6/Gunslinger 5/Alchemist 2
+12
+12
+9
+4
-
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Initiative
11d10+2d8+19
Acrobatics 3/Craft (Alchemy) 3/Fly 8/Perception 13/Stealth 13/Use Magic Device 13


14
Fighter 7/Gunslinger 5/Alchemist 2
+13
+13
+9
+4
-
-
-
12d10+2d8+21
Acrobatics 3/Craft (Alchemy) 3/Fly 8/Perception 14/Stealth 14/Use Magic Device 14


15
Fighter 8/Gunslinger 5/Alchemist 2
+14
+13
+10
+5
-
Deadeye (3.5)
Clustered Shot
13d10+2d8+23
Acrobatics 3/Craft (Alchemy) 3/Fly 8/Perception 15/Stealth 15/Use Magic Device 15


16
Fighter 8/Gunslinger 6/Alchemist 2
+15
+14
+10
+5
Dex +1
-
-
14d10+2d8+24
Acrobatics 3/Craft (Alchemy) 3/Fly 10/Perception 16/Stealth 16/Use Magic Device 16


17
Fighter 8/Gunslinger 7/Alchemist 2
+16
+14
+11
+5
-
Deadly Aim
-
15d10+2d8+25
Acrobatics 3/Craft (Alchemy) 3/Fly 12/Perception 17/Stealth 17/Use Magic Device 17


18
Fighter 9/Gunslinger 7/Alchemist 2
+17
+15
+11
+6
-
-
-
16d10+2d8+27
Acrobatics 3/Craft (Alchemy) 3/Fly 12/Perception 18/Stealth 18/Use Magic Device 18


19
Fighter 10/Gunslinger 7/Alchemist 2
+18
+15
+11
+6
-
Hammer the Gap
Greater Weapon Focus (Double-barreled Pistol)
17d10+2d8+29
Acrobatics 3/Craft (Alchemy) 3/Fly 12/Perception 19/Stealth 19/Use Magic Device 19


20
Fighter 10/Gunslinger 8/Alchemist 2
+19
+16
+12
+6
Dex +1
-
Improved Critical (Double-barreled Pistol)
18d10+2d8+30
Acrobatics 3/Craft (Alchemy) 3/Fly 14/Perception 20/Stealth 20/Use Magic Device 20




Each snapshot will present the build's basic capabilities, assuming they were handed two masterwork double-barreled pistols, a level-appropriate pair of Dex gloves, and a handy haversack of as many alchemical cartridges as it can hold.

Full Attack options(within 20 ft; targets Touch AC)
--+9/+9 (Dual-wielding)
--+7/+7/+7 (Dual-wielding, Rapid Shot)
--+5/+5/+5/+5 (Dual-wielding, both barrels)
--+3/+3/+3/+3/+3/+3 (Dual-wielding, Rapid Shot, both barrels)

Damage
--1d6+1 per shot (+1d6 Sneak Attack)

Criticals
--x4

At this point, your damage potential has more to do with the sheer number of attacks you can take; options will come along later that give more attacks, and give attack/damage bonuses per attack. Getting SA regularly would be great, so magical support that makes lots of enemies FF would be wonderful.


Full Attack options (within 20 ft; targets Touch AC)
--+16/+16/+11/+11 (Dual-wielding)
--+14/+14/+14/+9/+9 (Dual-wielding, Rapid Shot)
--+12/+12/+12/+12/+7/+7/+7/+7 (Dual-wielding, both barrels)
--+10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+5/+5/+5/+5 (Dual-wielding, Rapid Shot, both barrels)

Damage
--1d6+11 (+1d6 Sneak Attack)

Criticals
--x4

Getting Dex to damage and some feat support has really allowed this character to start shining at this point. What's really killer is the Touch AC targeting: if you get within 20ft of this guy, he's going to fill you with holes, which is exactly what his job is. His abilities as party scout are also really coming into play: magic can substitute for swimming and climbing, and he's quiet enough to break into a place without being noticed (being small-sized with a huge Dex is a big help here).



Full Attack Options (within 30 ft; targets Touch AC)
--+25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15 (Dual-wielding)
--+23/+23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13 (Dual-wielding, Rapid Shot)
--+21/+21/+21/+21/+16/+16/+16/+16/+11/+11/+11/+11 (Dual-wielding, both barrels)
--+19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+9/+9/+9 (Dual-wielding, Rapid Shot, both barrels)

Damage
--1d6+35 (+1d6 Sneak attack)

Criticals
--x4

Okay, it's starting to get pretty ridiculous. I mean, did you see all of those attacks?! And how high the attack bonuses are going against Touch AC?! Okay, now add in that your bad boy is now getting Dex to damage from 3 separate sources! Admittedly, this character took two 3.5 feats between ECL 10 and ECL 15 (Deadeye, giving Dex to damage, and Ranged Weapon Mastery, giving +2 attack and damage to ranged piercing weapons the character uses), but it shouldn't be too difficult to get the DM's approval at this point, especially considering the shenanigans the mages are no doubt getting up to at this point. Also, at this point, Initiative is even higher than ever.


Full Attack options (within 30ft; targets Touch AC)
--+32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17 (Dual-wielding)
--+30/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20/+20/+15 (Dual-wielding, Rapid Shot)
--+28/+28/+28/+28/+23/+23/+23/+23/+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13 (Dual-wielding, both barrels)
--+26/+26/+26/+26/+26/+26/+21/+21/+21/+21/+16/+16/+16/+16/+11/+11 (Dual-wielding, Rapid Shot, both barrels)

Damage
--1d6+38 (+1d6 Sneak Attack)

Criticals
--19-20, x4

Combat Options
--Deadly Aim: all attacks -5, all damage +10
--Clustered Shot: all damage is added up before DR is applied
--Hammer the Gap: every attack gets a cumulative +1 to its attack roll for every attack that's hit so far this round

Look at that. Just look at that. That is amazing. I don't care if it's not the most optimal gunslinger build ever, it's awesome. DPR is at an all-time high, to the point that magical support is hardly necessary to take things down.


I'm going to come back to this in just a few minutes to show off some damage calculations to see what this character could kill at ECL 20. For now, I'll let the numbers speak for themselves.

EDIT:

If you replace the masterwork pistols with +5 pistols, you can do about 200 damage to Orcus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/demon-lords/demon-lord-orcus-tohc) after DR, without any help. I'm sure there's lots of useful spells that could be used to make Orcus nothing more than a quick speed bump; for example, Haste (or anything granting the equivalent) will give an extra attack, or two if both barrels are employed.

[grarrrg]

The way he sees it, to reload a revolver, the Vanara would use his tail to reach into his pocket, grab one of these things http://www.shootingillustrated.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/xW7575_SI_0200CLIP.jpg and stick in the gun. While to reload a black-powder gun would still take a standard action with rapid reload. So I guess Vanara would be better on that end.... Hmm...

Your DM has (overall) made a sound ruling, as RAW the Vanara/Tiefling tail doesn't help with reloading.
As written it can only "retrieve small, stowed objects", so it technically cannot hold a Firearm (which is what normally kills it for use in TWF-Gun builds).
The "retrieve a speed-loader" part can makes some sense so points there.

As for early firearms, you still need to resort to 3rd hand stuff, or the feat-chain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/grit-feats/gun-twirling-grit) to Free-Action-Holster

[AvatarVecna]

As written it can only "retrieve small, stowed objects", so it technically cannot hold a Firearm (which is what normally kills it for use in TWF-Gun builds).

Neither tail was expected to hold a weapon, just retrieve a "small, stowed object", as per their description: namely, a bullet.

That feat looks actually useful; on a less feat-intensive build, it would be quite useful.

[Theomniadept]

Not gonna lie, if you're playing Gunslinger you're gonna tick off the DM reeeeaaaalll fast. But, I will help you so you can see exactly why:

Take 5 levels of the Pistolero archetype. Buy two cheap weapon cords, which allow you to pick up the weapon attached to them as a swift action. Here's how TWF PIstolero with weapon cords goes down:

Start of round have one gun not drawn but on its cord, the other drawn.
Fire and reload as a free action until you are out of primary hand attacks.
Drop gun from primary (free action), draw off-hand gun (swift action).
Fire all attacks with offhand gun, reloading as a free action.
Start of next round you repeat this.

It's a standard action to reload a single barrel of a one-handed pistol. Combine Rapid Reload and Lightning Reload to make this a free action.

Note that this is a stupid powerful build. Your weapon of choice is the double-barreled pistol, of which you can fire both barrels and reload them as a free action. You're talking with TWF at 16th level with Rapid Shot you're getting 14 attacks a round, doing 1d8 + Dex damage on each, with your Dex as your attack bonus at full BAB, -4 to all attacks for doubling the number of attacks you do. Once you get two +5 guns to ignore all DR that can be bypassed by metal and alignment, you're doing (1d8 + 5 + Dex mod) x 14. No, you won't miss, you're targeting Touch AC. Assuming 18 Dex that's an average 180 damage a round, at a range of 20 feet.

Gunslinger is also heavily SAD. Dexterity powers your attack, damage (somehow), AC, reflex saves (a good save), initiative, Acrobatics (because you totally needed to be able to tumble away before murdering someone), and Sleight of Hand (to draw a hidden gun before unleashing bullet hell on them). You may as well invest in Disable Device because with such a high Dex you'll pretty much be able to disarm traps as well as a Rogue. Also Stealth because sneaking before killing is always a good thing.

Your next prioritized stat is Wisdom for all those grit points to ensure if you do misfire you don't break your gun, which also powers your Will saves (your ONE bad save), and your Perception (now you have scouting capabilities). And third is your Constitution because you've just covered all your bases and now you can invest into HP. Did I mention that in your training of standing far away and shooting things you somehow have the hit die and fortitude save of a guy whose training includes wearing full plat, holding a tower shield, and swinging a heavy weapon?

Seriously, your 3 prioritized scores are all save scores, you have two good saves, and you power almost all your combat off of one score. You can do more damage than any other class at a range, eventually taking Improved Snapshot to threaten 15 feet with AoOs on your pistols, effectively causing enemies to take two attacks before they can try to hit your maxed AC and your d10 HD. He's going to throw a dragon at you and watch helplessly as you murder it in one round. Remember how Wraithstrike was broken in 3.5? Paizo didn't want to listen to that so they decided to build entire weapons with that effect inherent in them.

[AvatarVecna]

@Oracle_of_Void

Theomniadept brings up some good points, but each has it's downsides.

1) Gunslinger (Pistolero archetype) gets the Deadeye deed at level 7 instead of level 1. To remind you (and them), this is the deed that let's you target Touch AC; you're giving that up for at least a few levels (if you go straight pistolero) and probably many more (if you dipped for various reasons).

2) Dual-wielding pistols (what the pistolero is supposed to be good at) requires a lot of feats; gunslinger has some good perks, but it doesn't give as many bonus feats as a few fighter levels would. But dipping for the feats necessary to be a decent gunman means delaying your pistolero's ability to target Touch AC (see point 1).

3) Lightning Reload is a gunslinger 11 deed; taking straight gunslinger is better for snipers than dual-wielders for many reasons (including point 2), and when you consider that you can spend money on this instead of class levels, I think we know which option is superior.

4) The point about weapon cords is a bit off, too: you only get one swift action per turn. Granted, the method he suggests makes sure to only use one per turn, but that means that you never have your swift action, since you need it for drawing your pistol.

5) I hate the Snap Shot feat tree because it takes too long for you to get decent at something that shouldn't be necessary in the first place: in an opponent is getting within 15 ft of you, it's because either your teammates failed to keep it from getting to the ranged combatant, or you failed to riddle them with bullets when you had the chance. This gives me opportunity to bring up another couple of points worth keeping in mind...

Other than that, they know what they're talking about; it's only when they start discussing specific mechanics that it becomes a little weird. As for my points unrelated to their advice...

A) If you want to extend your Touch AC range, you have a few options...
--1) Far Shot (3.5): This extends your range increment, which is the basis for your Touch AC range.
--2) Distance weapon enhancement: See above; it's like that.
--3) Ranged Weapon Mastery (3.5): I used it in my sample build for a reason: it extends your range by 20ft.
--4) Extra Grit feat: The Deadeye deed costs 0 grit to target Touch AC within the first range increment, and 1 grit per range increment beyond that. More grit means you can afford to shoot further at Touch AC.

B) Finally, for future reference, because I can't let a gunslinger optimization thread pass me by without mentioning this, I'm going to bring up the 3rd party PF PrC, the Gunslinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-prestige-classes/paizo-fans-united/gunslinger). Fast bonus feat progression, full BAB, good Fort and Ref, don't provoke AoOs for using guns in melee, Rapid Reload for free, ricochet bullets of stuff, and the marksman ability (which reduces the effective range increment a target's at by one per rank, as well as giving a growing bonus that works like, and stacks with, Point Blank Shot). This is how you make a sniper, especially if you're going gestalt.

[Oracle_of_Void]

@Theomniadept You make a lot of good points. Like, in general. And I'll be totally honest, I forgot all about Lightning Reload :smallbiggrin:.

@AvatarVecna According to the PF SRD at least, advanced firearms always target touch AC in the first five range increments any way, so I think dead-eye is a little redundant ( at least, if I'm reading these rules right).

[AvatarVecna]

@AvatarVecna According to the PF SRD at least, advanced firearms always target touch AC in the first five range increments any way, so I think dead-eye is a little redundant ( at least, if I'm reading these rules right).

That is true (and you're right, I missed that), but Theomniadept was talking about pulling this stunt with double-barreled pistols. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Besides, there's lots of ways to extend one's Touch AC range (as I've suggested), although advanced firearms are great for that...

Still, it comes down to revolvers vs. double-barreled pistols; I suppose double-barreled pistols have the advantage at the short range, and barely lose at the long range, but it's like debating the difference between an open casket and closed casket funeral: no matter how badly the body is or isn't mutilated, they're still dead. When it comes down to it, you don't need to be able to kill Orcus in a straight-up 1v1 at ECL 20; the fact that you can is icing on the cake.

EDIT:

Also, if advanced firearms can target touch out to 5 increments, and it's pathetically easy to increase your base range increment, that just makes the Snap Shot feat line even less worthy of the expended feats than it already was.

[Oracle_of_Void]

That is true (and you're right, I missed that), but Theomniadept was talking about pulling this stunt with double-barreled pistols. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Besides, there's lots of ways to extend one's Touch AC range (as I've suggested), although advanced firearms are great for that...

Still, it comes down to revolvers vs. double-barreled pistols; I suppose double-barreled pistols have the advantage at the short range, and barely lose at the long range, but it's like debating the difference between an open casket and closed casket funeral: no matter how badly the body is or isn't mutilated, they're still dead. When it comes down to it, you don't need to be able to kill Orcus in a straight-up 1v1 at ECL 20; the fact that you can is icing on the cake.

Hey, its all good. In fact, Thanks all of you! You've all given me plenty of food for thought about gunslingers. I learned a lot about optimizing them (and ranged attackers in general). I really appreciate all the work you've done on my behalf! I'm not quite sure what my final character draft will be yet, but you guys have provided a lot of fun concepts. I might provide a sheet for the finalized character but I am a procrastinator at heart and as such cannot guarantee a timely delivery. Cheers all around, you guys are awesome! :smallsmile:

[AvatarVecna]

Glad to be of help. With your point about range increments, I'm off to discover if I can build an ECL 20 gestalt character that can break the RL world record for longest distance sniper shot. Given some quick calculations...

Advanced Rifle: 80ft
Ranged Weapon Mastery (3.5): +20
Far Shot (3.5): x1.5
Distance Weapon enhancement: x2

range increment: 300ft

Gunslinger (PrC) 10: 13 range increments

Total current range: 3900 ft (as opposed to furthest shot, 8121 yards)


...I'm sure the answer is no. But that's not going to stop me from looking for a way to do it anyway!

[grarrrg]

Buy two cheap weapon cords, which allow you to pick up the weapon attached to them as a swift action.

Except for the part where Paizo Nerfed Weapon Cords by ruling they are now a Move Action to retrieve.
I do believe I'm the one who originally wrote up the "weapon cord trick", trust me, I'm just as upset as you.

3 Arms, or a 3 feat investment are the only ways to Dual-Wield by RAW right now.

[Theomniadept]

Except for the part where Paizo Nerfed Weapon Cords by ruling they are now a Move Action to retrieve.
I do believe I'm the one who originally wrote up the "weapon cord trick", trust me, I'm just as upset as you.

3 Arms, or a 3 feat investment are the only ways to Dual-Wield by RAW right now.

Okay now this is why I jumped ship on Pathfinder. They do know already that retrieving a weapon was already a move action, right?

[grarrrg]

Okay now this is why I jumped ship on Pathfinder. They do know already that retrieving a weapon was already a move action, right?

Probably.
To be (semi)-fair, being able to effectively Dual-Wield Pistols for literally 2 _Silver_ pieces was insanely cheap.
I do not agree with the 'fix', but will agree that something should have been tweaked with the Cords.
I do believe they are VERY much actively making it hard to use 2 guns at once though.

The main (only) use for Weapon Cords now is to always make sure your weapon stays within 5ft. of you.
Disarming being the most likely case. But being swept over-board whilst on a ship and NOT losing your best weapon is also handy.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Okay now this is why I jumped ship on Pathfinder. They do know already that retrieving a weapon was already a move action, right?
The point was to keep the weapon from being knocked away from you, not to mitigate disarm into no big deal. As it works now you could be disarmed or stunned then take a step back out of threatened range then retrieve your weapon avoiding an attack of opportunity still very useful.

That being said I'd call reloading a gun especially a muzzle loader a finer action. Evident by the fact that the misfire increases if reloaded by a non-proficient character.
Not something you can do as easily with a 4lb weight dangling


Glad to be of help. With your point about range increments, I'm off to discover if I can build an ECL 20 gestalt character that can break the RL world record for longest distance sniper shot. Given some quick calculations...

Advanced Rifle: 80ft
Ranged Weapon Mastery (3.5): +20
Far Shot (3.5): x1.5
Distance Weapon enhancement: x2

range increment: 300ft

Gunslinger (PrC) 10: 13 range increments

Total current range: 3900 ft (as opposed to furthest shot, 8121 yards)


...I'm sure the answer is no. But that's not going to stop me from looking for a way to do it anyway!
Using some of the futuristic firearms from the technology guide you could get 6,630ft.