MoI: Common Incarnum Houserules?

[Phelix-Mu]

Hi All!

Later, I will be fielding some of my ideas for my own houserules for MoI, but I would like to see what you all have found useful as well, effectively crowdsourcing to experienced Playgrounders in order to make sure I don't go chasing after zee vild goose with my ideas. Basically, I am trying to make the system appealing for players in a mid-op campaign that is upcoming, one of the first in which incarnum has made a significant appearance.

An earlier campaign in the same setting (now some five years past irl) established the basis for the existence of incarnum in my setting, a kind of elder god that sprang into the existence vacuum after another elder god ate like 30% of reality. The elder god is the source of the soul-energy, since I hated (and still hate) the idea of powering stuff with souls/soul energy, since it doesn't integrate well with the established resources of souls from earlier editions (and just rubs me the wrong way besides).

So, what changes to the subsystem have you found useful? Anything is good, but I have a few points I am particularly interested in:

- New feats that should have been Incarnum feats but aren't?
- Your personal rulings on one of the dozen or so melds that are sufficiently vague in the RAW to need adjudication?
- Homebrewed melds you know of? Links welcome.
- Epic meldshaping resources?

Again, general stuff also welcome. Just brainstorming atm, as I like the ideas behind the subsystem, but it is sufficiently tame that it could be boosted in small ways to add to usability or appeal, without breaking the game. I want players to be interested in it (or rather, have it be effective if they are interested), and to have it be useful for some npcs that I have planned.

Thanks in advance.

[Venger]

specifically, what kinds of things do you want to change about the subsystem? what things do you think are too weak/ poorly balanced/ etc?

reading the incarnate and totemist handbook along with shneeky's meld list is generally a pretty good place to start understanding the way things are before you think about what you'd like to change and why.

in my experience with meldshapers, there aren't really that many issues that have no rules at all. the only exception that comes to mind is frost helm:

frost helm has no listed range at all, so you'll need to make one up.

airstep sandals imply you fall if you don't have them bound, but this is incorrect, as perfect maneuverability allow you to hover.

as far as changes go, a good start is eliminating the ridiculous volley rule stating that precision damage can only apply to the first rain of spines from the manticore belt. bird of prey totemists are even weaker than archers, so as a result are very unlikely to break a game, especially if they have levels in a precision-damage granting class.

in general: give people more essentia and make the caps higher. I'll post again when you mention specifically what issues you'd like to address, I'll post moar

[Phelix-Mu]

Really just fishing to see if there were any common areas where people found issue or need for clarification.

The only particular thing that I am probably looking to change is rebalancing the four alignments for Incarnate and their effects on the melds where alignment matters. I like the alignment fluff, just think that they balanced them really poorly, making CN seem really pigeonholed, and strange non-synergy in a couple other areas.

Totemist largely seems fine, but I will look into how I would rule manticore belt. Thanks for the tip.

I have read sinfire titan's handbook, but will add shneeky's meld list to my required reading. Any other required reading you can think of?

[Venger]

Really just fishing to see if there were any common areas where people found issue or need for clarification.

The only particular thing that I am probably looking to change is rebalancing the four alignments for Incarnate and their effects on the melds where alignment matters. I like the alignment fluff, just think that they balanced them really poorly, making CN seem really pigeonholed, and strange non-synergy in a couple other areas.

Totemist largely seems fine, but I will look into how I would rule manticore belt. Thanks for the tip.

I have read sinfire titan's handbook, but will add shneeky's meld list to my required reading. Any other required reading you can think of?

incarnate by the numbers (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1041916) is very important in understanding how the numbers game stacks up with the system as-is

all shneeky's stuff is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?215723-Incarnum-and-YOU-a-reference-guide) pay particular attention to the meld list, at the end of the post, since that's what you care about and due to MoI's horrible organization, shneeky's list is much faster to find what you're looking for.

one note: he is wrong about the lucky dice, luck bonuses do not stack with themselves. it's still a pretty solid meld tho.

totemist handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2943.0) is good for a basic primer on how to totemist. since it's a much better-designed class than incarnate, there's less to explain to a new incarnum user since it's hard to screw yourself too badly with a straight totemist, whereas it's quite easy with incarnate.

aside from that, I think that about covers the basics. if the title of the thread alone doesn't summon him, talk to piggy knowles, he knows even more about incarnum than I do.

[Chronos]

Another issue with Manticore Belt is whether it counts as a natural weapon or not. There are arguments on both sides; it's probably best if the DM just picks one and decrees it. I would favor saying yes, on the grounds that it gives totemists a little more support.

[Venger]

Another issue with Manticore Belt is whether it counts as a natural weapon or not. There are arguments on both sides; it's probably best if the DM just picks one and decrees it. I would favor saying yes, on the grounds that it gives totemists a little more support.

yeah, having it "officially" count as a natatk would be a good houserule and it's something I do too, since totemist's other stuff all is.

[nedz]

Well the Completely Dysfunctional Handbook lists these, which probably require House-rules.


Incarnum




Description
Thread
Pages
Version

Frost Helm soulmeldGives you a ray attack, of arbitrary range, when bound to the Crown Chakra1343.5
Incarnate WeaponDoes nothing if neutral character learns by shape soulmeld2443.5
Soulspeaker CircletSpend essentia to understand a language you already understand4313.5
Therapeutic MantleLinked to SL, but can be trigered by non-spells5153.5
Phase CloakUndefined interaction when Running5153.5
VariousGive fly speed equal to 5*essentia invested, if 0 invested, can hover2453.5


Not that any of these have ever come up for me, no one has ever used MoI — so far.

[AmberVael]

A rule I like is "investing in incarnum feats is exactly like investing in soulmelds, none of this once per day nonsense." Because seriously, why?

[Venger]

A rule I like is "investing in incarnum feats is exactly like investing in soulmelds, none of this once per day nonsense." Because seriously, why?

the intended goal with this is to prevent you from investing in say, cobalt power or what have you when you need it and then pulling the E for your melds.

I don't know why, mind you, but this is their reasoning. I agree that's a good fix. I'd suggest applying the same rule to class features and incarnum spells.

also, axe the rule that you need to take incarnum spellshaping to do incarnum spells. if you care enough to actually cast any of those awful spells, you ought to be able to, you're only handicapping yourself.

[Fax Celestis]

The soulborn is so terrible that I gestalt it with the soulknife for free. It's still mediocre, but much less so.

[Blackhawk748]

This is more of a fluff thing than an actual Houserule, but i recall someone on here mentioning that they always fluffed Incarnum as where Magical Beasts got their power from, and as such it was just naturally occurring magic, kinda like natural background radiation. It doesnt hurt you until you go into a place where its way to high

[The Insaniac]

If you allow the essentia feats to be adjustable on the fly, you may want to prohibit it for midnight metamagic because casters will get stupid amounts of metamagic into each spell if they can reinvest essentia into the feat.

[Bonzai]

My Incarnum house rules:

1. Soul melds can be dismissed at will, and new ones can be shaped and bound. The process takes 10 minutes per meld. (To me this allows MOI classes to shine more, as utility characters. Nothing sucks more than having the perfect meld for a job but never getting to use it as it's not something you shape every day, and you don't want to hold your party up for a day to shape it. At the same time it's not an in combat fix and keeps the Incarnate ability to swap melds useful).

2. Soulborn get a bonus fighter or Incarnum feat every other level, starting at level 2. This replaces the normal bonus feats that the class receives. (This is to bring the class closer to Psychic warrior standards).

3. Starting at level 3, a Soulborn may shift essential between Incarnum feats as if they were soul melds. The exception to this are Soul Melds that have effects that are expended by use, such as healing soul an Saphire smite. They cannot be used more than they otherwise could without this ability. (This way a soulborn can make use of his bonus feats without making his melds suffer).

New Incarnum Feats.

Heightened Meldshaping: Your Meldshaper level increases by 1 for each essentia invested in this feat. You get +1 essentia from this feat.

Tenacious Meldshaping: The number of rounds that your soulmelds are suppressed by dispel magic and other effects are reduced by 1 for each essentia invested into this feat, to a minimum of one round. You get +1 essentia from this feat.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I know there are at least two different soulborn fixes from other playgrounders here on the forums beyond Fax's gestalting with soulknife. Using one of those or at least giving them meldshaping from level 1 would help immensely.

[Psyren]

One of the big ones that always causes arguments here is whether the "Open Chakra" feats actually give you an available chakra bind so that you can bind the soulmeld. And if they do and you already have chakra binds from your class, can you use those feats to get more?`

My personal take is yes to both, but it's definitely something that isn't clear in the book.

[Phelix-Mu]

Alright, so this is all great so far. Some good tips in case any of the players does pick up the book and decide to do something involved (as opposed to a dip or a couple feats).

Here, since I have a bit of an audience, are some of my proposals for houserules:

1.) Get rid of CN's incarnate weapon from the book, instead making it some kind of ranged weapon (suggestions?). This way there is actual synergy with some of the other stuff CN incarnate's get from other sources, sighting gloves, and the seemingly traditional association of CN incarnate with ranged combat (which is fine with me, if there is more support). Certainly, battleaxe or w/e it was seems weird.

2.) The mid-day meld shaping/unshaping/reshaping given 10 minutes idea above seems solid. Any thoughts?

3.) Allow enchantment of incarnate weapons in a manner that balances with existing options for totemist (necklace of natural weapons). I am looking at an unaligned Ancestral Relic feat for free with the incarnate weapon, since that is an efficient and relatively low-intervention fix. Or perhaps it's not for free, and a martially-inclined incarnate can just burn the feat for it.

4.) Soulborn's fluff is probably getting a revamp for me. I will be upgrading it's meldshaping at early levels, and probably adding in some Kensai-ish flavor or something, allowing for a special weapon/piece of gear or something. I am not in a hurry to fix this, as none of my players even know of it or would fancy playing this kind of class without first trying pally or crusader, but it's so bad that it pretty much needs fixed at some point.

5.) As I said before, totemist is easily the class here that works the best right out of the box, so I don't want to fiddle with much. But I would probably rule manticore belt to be a natural weapon (sounds like one)

6.) Introduce Practiced Meldshaper feat. Is there a feat like this already, in the vein of Practiced Spellcaster/Manifester? Seems like meldshapers get shafted by little support outside the book, but I don't even really know the ramifications or effects such a feat would have (improved essentia, more melds, chakra binds?). Any thoughts?

[Troacctid]

All of the feats in the book should count as Incarnum feats. Cobalt Expertise, Cobalt Power, and Cobalt Precision should be fighter bonus feats. Share Soulmeld should work on psicrystals.

The Open Chakra feats are really confusing. I've gone back and forth on them, but I think the intent is that they don't give you an extra chakra bind, based on the difference in wording compared to the spells and psionic powers with similar effects, the number of chakra binds used by the sample Sapphire Hierarch (who has the feat but doesn't have an extra bind because of it), and the presence of the Extra Chakra Bind as a separate, epic feat.

I would probably houserule all the epic feats (besides Open Heart/Soul Chakra) in the book as non-epic, though. I don't see a reason why you shouldn't be able to take them before 21st level, provided you meet the requirements. Extra Chakra Bind is probably overpowered as a 6th level feat, but certainly not as a 12th level one. And it makes no sense that you can take Shape Soulmeld at 1st level but you can't take Bonus Soulmeld until 21st. As for so-called Epic Essentia, 1 extra point compared to Bonus Essentia is not my idea of "epic."

Edit: I would not allow blanket unshaping and reshaping. That is supposed to be an Incarnate class feature, not something all meldshapers get for free. Just make the Rapid Meldshaping feat non-epic, and if they want it, they can take it.

[Chronos]

If Practiced Meldshaper worked the same way as Practiced Spellcaster/Manifester, then it'd just increase your meldshaper level... but that almost never makes any difference. Nobody would ever want to take that feat if that were all it did. As for making it do more, my inclination is that incarnum is already too dippable, and that making it even more so wouldn't be desirable.

[Blackhawk748]

1.) Get rid of CN's incarnate weapon from the book, instead making it some kind of ranged weapon (suggestions?). This way there is actual synergy with some of the other stuff CN incarnate's get from other sources, sighting gloves, and the seemingly traditional association of CN incarnate with ranged combat (which is fine with me, if there is more support). Certainly, battleaxe or w/e it was seems weird.

Just go with a Longbow? Its classic, works well with all ranged feats, you can Rapid Shot with it, etc.


If Practiced Meldshaper worked the same way as Practiced Spellcaster/Manifester, then it'd just increase your meldshaper level... but that almost never makes any difference. Nobody would ever want to take that feat if that were all it did. As for making it do more, my inclination is that incarnum is already too dippable, and that making it even more so wouldn't be desirable.

Maybe it would increase your Essentia Capacity? That would actually be pretty nice for straight Meldshapers.

[Troacctid]

Maybe it would increase your Essentia Capacity? That would actually be pretty nice for straight Meldshapers.

Essentia capacity isn't based on meldshaper level, and there's already another feat that increases it. So that wouldn't make much sense.

Practiced Meldshaper would pretty much be for Vitality Belt and Necrocarnum Circlet. Off the top of my head I think those are the only two where it really matters. Witchborn Binder, maybe, I guess, but in that case it's probably better just to houserule it so that it advances your meldshaper level on the levels where it doesn't advance your meldshaping.

[Waker]

3.) Allow enchantment of incarnate weapons in a manner that balances with existing options for totemist (necklace of natural weapons). I am looking at an unaligned Ancestral Relic feat for free with the incarnate weapon, since that is an efficient and relatively low-intervention fix. Or perhaps it's not for free, and a martially-inclined incarnate can just burn the feat for it.
You could also decide that investing Essentia into the meld makes the item count as a magic weapon. At the time you invest the essentia, decide what/if any enhancements are placed on the weapon in place of a bonus. You can change the existing enchantments anytime you invest essentia into the meld. For example, a level 10 Lawful Incarnate could invest up to 3 points of essentia into their Incarnate Weapon, making it a +3 Longsword, a +2 Keen Longsword or a +1 Flaming, Keen Longsword. Obviously you couldn't put on an Alignment enchantment that you doesn't match your own.


4.) Soulborn's fluff is probably getting a revamp for me. I will be upgrading it's meldshaping at early levels, and probably adding in some Kensai-ish flavor or something, allowing for a special weapon/piece of gear or something. I am not in a hurry to fix this, as none of my players even know of it or would fancy playing this kind of class without first trying pally or crusader, but it's so bad that it pretty much needs fixed at some point.
Many Playgrounders, myself included have made attempts to fix the Soulborn. I have a few abandoned projects in the the dusty corners of my Homebrew signature. (Yes, I know the tables are all screwed up. One day maybe I'll get around to fixing those too.) Meister (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?254058-Meister-%28WIP-Base-Class%29&p=13801548#post13801548) was the one that was closest to being a finished replacement for Soulborn, though I do have other Incarnum classes in my signature.


6.) Introduce Practiced Meldshaper feat. Is there a feat like this already, in the vein of Practiced Spellcaster/Manifester? Seems like meldshapers get shafted by little support outside the book, but I don't even really know the ramifications or effects such a feat would have (improved essentia, more melds, chakra binds?). Any thoughts?
By itself, a Practiced Meldshaper would do very little. As other posters have said, the majority of soulmelds don't care what your meldshaper level is. There are already other feats that improve essentia capacity, number of chakra binds and so on, so maybe something like increasing the DCs by +1 of a meld that allows a save.

[Troacctid]

By itself, a Practiced Meldshaper would do very little. As other posters have said, the majority of soulmelds don't care what your meldshaper level is. There are already other feats that improve essentia capacity, number of chakra binds and so on, so maybe something like increasing the DCs by +1 of a meld that allows a save.

Increasing essentia capacity pretty much does that already.

Edit: What if you made it an incarnum feat? +2 meldshaper level per essentia invested, and it gives you a point of essentia.

[Waker]

Increasing essentia capacity pretty much does that already.

Edit: What if you made it an incarnum feat? +2 meldshaper level per essentia invested, and it gives you a point of essentia.

True, my suggestion was more of a across the board buff. If any meld allows a save, the feat would increase it's DC by 1, regardless of essentia invested. Mostly just an off the top of my head suggestion, not a great one. Just a bit tricky to come up with a direct comparison to Practiced Caster, since Incarnum is such a radically different system.

[Troacctid]

You could make "Incarnum Focus" an incarnum feat too. +1 to soulmeld save DCs per essentia invested, gain 1 essentia.

[Vhaidara]

One of the things I like to do is remove the Incarnates alignment requirement. Aligned melds just match up to your alignment. Maybe employ Cleric restrictions (if you don't want Good guys messing around with Necrocarnum).

Make it so that you can shape Incarnate Weapon into the weapon of your choice.

Manticore Belt spines are natural weapons.

I want to make it so that binds start at level 1, but that does make dips too strong. So the deal I would make with a player is that, if they intend to keep taking meldshaper levels, they get the binds normally given at level 2 at level 1.

Incarnum variants for other races (like the Soulforged in my sig).

[Venger]

One of the big ones that always causes arguments here is whether the "Open Chakra" feats actually give you an available chakra bind so that you can bind the soulmeld. And if they do and you already have chakra binds from your class, can you use those feats to get more?`

My personal take is yes to both, but it's definitely something that isn't clear in the book.

I say the same. Again, it's not gonna break the game and lets meldshapers be more versatile and do more stuff, something they struggle with.



1.) Get rid of CN's incarnate weapon from the book, instead making it some kind of ranged weapon (suggestions?). This way there is actual synergy with some of the other stuff CN incarnate's get from other sources, sighting gloves, and the seemingly traditional association of CN incarnate with ranged combat (which is fine with me, if there is more support). Certainly, battleaxe or w/e it was seems weird.
as mentioned, longbow seems to make sense



2.) The mid-day meld shaping/unshaping/reshaping given 10 minutes idea above seems solid. Any thoughts?
this sounds fine to me. as far as it taking away incarnate's special power, I can say from experience that having rapid meldshaping 1/day only means that I just hoard it for the "perfect time" to use it and end up never actually using it.

a compromise would be to allow swapping out for 10mins for everybody, but incarnate can 1/day do that and also bind to that chakra if they want to, which is (atm) the biggest reason why rapid meldshaping kind of sucks.


3.) Allow enchantment of incarnate weapons in a manner that balances with existing options for totemist (necklace of natural weapons). I am looking at an unaligned Ancestral Relic feat for free with the incarnate weapon, since that is an efficient and relatively low-intervention fix. Or perhaps it's not for free, and a martially-inclined incarnate can just burn the feat for it.
I... don't really understand what you're talking about here. could you elaborate?



6.) Introduce Practiced Meldshaper feat. Is there a feat like this already, in the vein of Practiced Spellcaster/Manifester? Seems like meldshapers get shafted by little support outside the book, but I don't even really know the ramifications or effects such a feat would have (improved essentia, more melds, chakra binds?). Any thoughts?

as mentioned by the mob, meldshaper level doesn't actually do anything except for the totem avatar, vitality belt, apparition ribbon, beat tamer circlet, cerulean sandals, disenchanter mask, enigma helm, lifebond vestments, shedu crown, planar ward and necrocarnum circlet.

most of these effects, you don't really care about that much, though.

one thing practiced meldshaper could do is jog your melds/essentia, binds, and unlocked chakras ahead, like advancing spellcasting is supposed to do. I'd take it then, and it'd let me take levels in some other fun class, like crusader (horrifying with incarnate) vitality belt + stone power + steely resolve = :]

[Irk]

Sapphire Fist should give you extra uses of stunning Fist for each point of Essentia invested.

Psycarnum Crystal ought to do more. I dn't know what, but it's SO BAD right now. Maybe increase Essentia capacity or something that makes it a feat that can actually be taken.

Skarn Monk's Spine Strike ought to count as an Unarmed Strike for the purposes of feats as well as class features.

Necrocarnum Weapon ought to be improved. It's just not worth it was is, and every time I read the name, I get excited, read the abilities, and get disappointed again.

Can you give your own Soulspark feats, as you would a Psicrystal. Maybe you should be able to, they don't increase in HD so it wouldn't be too bad, and I feel that meld doesn't get enough play.

Incarnum Blade. I've looked at it so much, tried to salvage it a thousand times, and it just can't be saved. Someone needs to help it.

Is the Incarnum Dragon's Meldshaping ability Supernatural or Extraordinary? I don;t think so. If it was, imagine how many cool Dragon Wildshape Rangers we'd see. That would be neat.

Necrocarnum Zombies, like all undead, should advance by character class. I know I can just Awaken them or something, but I want my players to fight CR 13 level 20 Initiators, dammit! Gotta love that wonky HD-CR relation with Necrocarnum zombies.

Y'know, it would be cool if someone planar bound a Souleater and added it to the general "sappy-aura" build based on Focalor, Hexblade's Dark Companion, Unseelie Fey, and Aura of Sadness. For the Soulless aura, to maybe work with with Tenebrous + Death devotion.

Pentifex (the metal) should DO something.

Well, thos are my thought, some of them don;t have to with fixes, but hey, when I'm paging though a book, it won't be only about the topic at hand, so sorry about that. Hope it helps, at least a bit.

[Phelix-Mu]

I... don't really understand what you're talking about here. could you elaborate?

Well, my idea was that the incarnate weapon could, with a feat ([Ancestral Relic-ish]), be enchanted as a normal weapon could, in somewhat the same manner as a mindblade (but I'd probably stop short of that level of flexibility, as that is the main schtick of soulknife, not incarnate). So, basically, you could invest an increasingly large number of gp into the [Ancestral Relic-ish] feat, and spend those gp on weapon special abilities.

The thrust of my idea here is that incarnate really doesn't have a very good default damage schtick. It does jack of all trades, and can be pretty robust with a bunch of immunities/resistances and retributive damage from a couple sources and such. But as for dishing it out, it is currently pretty bad unless you build for specifically that kind of thing. I want it to at least have a bit of offensive coolness, something to fall back on. Don't know though, as Ancestral Relic weapons might be too robust a resource.

I'd probably make the same available to soulborn, but with a more aggressive and permissive progression for their weapon, since soulborn is supposed to be straight-up tanky/melee-ish, and currently is a bit lackluster in that department (to say the least).

As for changing what the weapon has on it, it should be slower than mindblade resetting. I am thinking a matter of days to reformat the weapon, but that might be too slow.

Anyway, just a thought. As it stands, incarnate weapon is pretty inferior a choice at higher levels, where WSAs are just too versatile and useful to pass up in favor of incarnate weapon. Which rather defeats the purpose of the meld.

[DM Nate]

It's a small thing, but my MOI campaigns have been predominantly meldshaper-only campaigns, so I didn't need to create houserules to bring them more in line with Psionic Warriors, for example.

It makes for a really interesting campaign, as meldshapers can dish out amazing amounts of damage and have access to really useful utility spells...but have basically no inherent access to restorative magic. I can ration the potions they get to adjust the CRs as I like.

[Coidzor]

Give Soulborn better meldshaping progression, give Totemists Incarnate progression, at least for essentia; & buff Incarnate progression to put em back on top

Also, damage scaling needs some buffing if you're into that sort of thing.

Edit: Ah, here's where I got that from originally.
2) Houserule fixes to consider:

Essentia capacity is equal to 1/2 your Meldshaper class level + 1/4 your hit dice from all other sources (with the total rounded up, so 1 at first level, max of 10 at 19th level). It cannot be improved further by any Feats, spells, class abilities, or magic items. Starting at level 6, Incarnate gains 2 points of essentia per level, which means a 20th level Incarnate gets 36 points of essentia (instead of 26). Totemist uses the original Incarnate essentia progression (getting 26 points over 20 levels instead of 20).

Totemist opens up his Soul chakra at 19th level like the Incarnate (which makes his one Soul chakra bind, Threefold Mask of the Chimera, useful).

Incarnate's Planar Chasuble soulmeld bound to Brow chakra increases your Incarnum Radiance class ability by an an amount equal to the essentia invested in the soulmeld, instead of just +1. This makes Incarnum Radiance (bonus to-hit or damage or AC or movement) a lot more powerful, especially late in their progression when it can be shared and used multiple times per day.

When destroyed, an Incarnate's Soulspark Familiar can be re-spawned as a full round action. (Currently, it's gone until the next time you re-bind it). This adds some damage per round and utility of an at-will Summons.

Incarnate's Elder Spirit (Dragon Magic) soulmeld bound to Soul lets you Shapechange into a Dragon matching your alignment type for a number of rounds per day equal to your Meldshaper level (split up however you like, Standard Action to change into dragon, free action to dismiss). Currently it only grants Blindsense, which is completely pointless, since Keeneye Lenses grant True Seeing.


as mentioned by the mob, meldshaper level doesn't actually do anything except for the totem avatar, vitality belt, apparition ribbon, beat tamer circlet, cerulean sandals, disenchanter mask, enigma helm, lifebond vestments, shedu crown, planar ward and necrocarnum circlet.

most of these effects, you don't really care about that much, though.

one thing practiced meldshaper could do is jog your melds/essentia, binds, and unlocked chakras ahead, like advancing spellcasting is supposed to do. I'd take it then, and it'd let me take levels in some other fun class, like crusader (horrifying with incarnate) vitality belt + stone power + steely resolve = :]

Hells to the yes. Even just jogging your melds/essentia/binds would be golden. Even melds+essentia would be pretty good. Just one of either melds or essentia would be meh but sometimes considered, I think.

[DM Nate]

Do you have a link to a discussion/suggestions for a better progression for the Soulborn? I'm running a pure meldshaper/eidolon campaign at the moment; and while it's not been a problem yet, I wouldn't mind boosting our resident Soulborn a tad.

[Psyren]

You can just add 1 to every number on their meldshaping table. It's easy to remember, will help your player, and still has them behind both the Incarnate and Totemist.

Also, give them Meldshaper level = Soulborn Level (or at least [Soulborn Level -2], if you really want some kind of limit in there.) Half is too cruel.

[Phelix-Mu]

Everyone has been most helpful. A couple of these suggestions are definitely making my list, and the chatter has helped me refine some of my stuff as well.

Anyone have any comments about Ancestral Relic-ish for incarnate? Originally, I was just trying to make a balance point for necklace of natural attacks, which can have a pretty good effect for totemists as they get to higher levels and can afford one that works on several natural weapons at once. But I have come to see that incarnates have less than five or so native damage dealing methods, the most obvious of which is incarnate weapon.

It's low-op to deal damage, I know, but a flexible and relatively cheap way to enchant the incarnate weapon meld seems like something that is missing from the class (just like no way to enchant monk's fists/kicks/knees/etc).

Thoughts?

[Coidzor]

Do you have a link to a discussion/suggestions for a better progression for the Soulborn? I'm running a pure meldshaper/eidolon campaign at the moment; and while it's not been a problem yet, I wouldn't mind boosting our resident Soulborn a tad.

After buffing Totemist & Incarnate, I'd give Totemists old progression to Soulborn.

If not buffing the other 2 classes, just give melds from 1st level & increase generally by 50 percent & tweak to taste from there.

[Troacctid]

Well, if you think about it, Incarnate Weapons are already enchanted as Returning and Soulbound. And if you bind them, Stunning.

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, if you think about it, Incarnate Weapons are already enchanted as Returning and Soulbound. And if you bind them, Stunning.

Hmm. I hadn't thought of it that way. I guess that is something. Do they even overcome DR/magic, though? Not with my book, atm, but my recollection is that it's DR/alignment that they overcome, and only on one half of one axis. They still seem pretty lackluster, but I suppose they can't be too effective without altering the focus of the base class.

I am currently thinking of having the Ancestral Relic-ish be a feat that can be chosen, and have it be a bonus feat for the Soulborn. Still mulling this over.

[Psyren]

Hmm. I hadn't thought of it that way. I guess that is something. Do they even overcome DR/magic, though? Not with my book, atm, but my recollection is that it's DR/alignment that they overcome, and only on one half of one axis. They still seem pretty lackluster, but I suppose they can't be too effective without altering the focus of the base class.

If you put essentia in the meld it gains an enhancement bonus and thus overcomes DR/magic.

[Phelix-Mu]

If you put essentia in the meld it gains an enhancement bonus and thus overcomes DR/magic.

Ah, good. Was worried it might have been an insight bonus.

[Telonius]

It's not one of my official houserules, since I've never had a player want to play an Incarnum class. But: Undead Meldshaper allows you to use Wisdom instead of Constitution for meeting Incarnum feat prerequisites.

Also: characters may choose to suppress the visual display of soulmelds that are shaped (but not bound) by using a standard action. (Bound soulmelds still appear as normal). The particular visual display of each soulmeld can be changed to anything appropriate to the character. Each soulmeld will have a faint glow about it; blue is the default if the player doesn't pick, but any color is possible.

[Venger]

It's not one of my official houserules, since I've never had a player want to play an Incarnum class. But: Undead Meldshaper allows you to use Wisdom instead of Constitution for meeting Incarnum feat prerequisites.

No it doesn't. It just replaces con for the number of melds you can have shaped and their save DC.

Letting it function in place of con for incarnum feats would make it less of a trap, though.


Also: characters may choose to suppress the visual display of soulmelds that are shaped (but not bound) by using a standard action. (Bound soulmelds still appear as normal). The particular visual display of each soulmeld can be changed to anything appropriate to the character. Each soulmeld will have a faint glow about it; blue is the default if the player doesn't pick, but any color is possible.

That sure sucks if someone's got the displacer mantle on and is trying to hide.

[Psyren]

As I mentioned in a previous incarnum thread - the blue motif is centered primarily around the Incarnate and Soulborn melds. Totemists have some blue, but their melds tend to be all over the place colorwise. This is called out both in the flavor text of many totemist melds, as well as in the artwork itself:

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/moi_gallery/91036.jpg
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/moi_gallery/91037.jpg
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/moi_gallery/91041.jpg
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/moi_gallery/91055.jpg

[Telonius]

No it doesn't. It just replaces con for the number of melds you can have shaped and their save DC.

Letting it function in place of con for incarnum feats would make it less of a trap, though.


... using Wisdom instead of Con, being the houserule.

[Venger]

... using Wisdom instead of Con, being the houserule.

oh, I misunderstood. I thought "It's not one of my official houserules" meant you were saying that's how undead meldshaper worked as-is.

[Phelix-Mu]

Very helpful, everyone. Thanks a lot.

It looks like I am going for the ten minutes reshaping, limited to (Con Mod) melds reshaped daily (I think, still thinking on that one), an Ancestral Relic available as a feat for incarnum weapons/natural weapons like incarnate weapon, but it costs a feat slot, and maybe one or two more of the suggestions. Have to recap everything now that I'm approaching my deadline, teehee.

Anyway, was very helpful in designing a character/npc or two, and should hopefully keep incarnum up to the tier/optimization level that I expect in the coming campaign.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I also like the ability to re-shape mid-day.

One big thing I've noticed as I play my first incarnum character, and something that concerns me is... you should be able to shuffle essentia points 1/round as a FREE action, not a swift. They give you more melds to shape than they do essentia, and let you put in more than 1 essentia in each meld, so they pretty clearly meant for you to be shuffling the points around mid-combat. But, there's so many swift action magic items and abilities, that must get pretty crippling later on. Just to do your basic class feature thing.

[Thanatosia]

Well the Completely Dysfunctional Handbook lists these, which probably require House-rules.


Incarnum




Description
Thread
Pages
Version

Frost Helm soulmeldGives you a ray attack, of arbitrary range, when bound to the Crown Chakra1343.5
Incarnate WeaponDoes nothing if neutral character learns by shape soulmeld2443.5
Soulspeaker CircletSpend essentia to understand a language you already understand4313.5
Therapeutic MantleLinked to SL, but can be trigered by non-spells5153.5
Phase CloakUndefined interaction when Running5153.5
VariousGive fly speed equal to 5*essentia invested, if 0 invested, can hover2453.5



Not that any of these have ever come up for me, no one has ever used MoI — so far.
Suprised you don't have the Strongheart Vest/Hellfire Warlock interaction on that list, as i've seen it cause some rather spirited disagreements.

[Phelix-Mu]

Crunch time! I'll likely post my final list this evening. Any last minute entries?:smallamused: