Best roles for a two-person party

[Chaosvii7]

Just curious really. I was wondering about a hypothetical in which you only get two potential characters. What combo would you get? I was thinking Leader and Defender to have two pretty tanky people who can deal okay damage with some good buffs and debuffs. What are your opinions?

[GPuzzle]

Enabling and Buffing Leader+Hard-Hitting Defender.

[Nightgaun7]

Striker and Leader or Striker and Defender, depending on which specific classes I wanted to take. Or do something like Pallock and Fighter/Cleric.

[NecroRebel]

Enabling Leader alongside a Striker specced to be enabled optimally, ideally. With proper builds, this combo can routinely deal triple striker-tier damage consistently, meaning enemies die quite fast, while the leader can undo the damage that enemies do deal before they die.

With stuff like this, the ability to deal damage and take out enemies quickly is more important than the ability to take damage. With small parties, you usually will fight smaller groups of enemies, so each enemy you kill takes out a larger percentage of the enemies' firepower. Thus, quick kills will usually result in the PCs taking less damage than slower kills on tankier PCs would.

[tcrudisi]

Leader + Striker, definitely. You want the ability to heal and deal damage.

However, don't forget that you need to cover the skills and not just combat. Something like a Bard is fantastic for this. Get all the Cha skills in one package, plus he can cover the other weaker skills. For a striker, I'd go something like Rogue or Monk - both able to boost their defenses up pretty high. The Rogue does good single target damage while the Monk can take care of some area attacks.

Defenders are less useful in smaller parties because who are they going to defend? You want defender-level defenses, sure, but several strikers can obtain that.

What about controllers? Well, the control doesn't help as much if you can't do the damage. Soft control really doesn't help much as there's so few players that the monsters can easily navigate around. Hard control is best utilized to temporarily take monsters out of combat while the players focus elsewhere. However, that doesn't work if half your players (eg, the controller) are focusing to keep one out of combat while the other tries to reduce the number of monsters. That's the very definition of splitting damage output.

So Leader + Striker is the best combo.

[Nightgaun7]

However, don't forget that you need to cover the skills and not just combat.

For a striker, I'd go something like Rogue or Monk...while the Monk can take care of some area attacks.

Defenders are less useful in smaller parties because who are they going to defend? You want defender-level defenses, sure, but several strikers can obtain that.


I'd say the monk doesn't hit hard enough to be a great candidate here.

Great point about the skill coverage.

Defender really depends on the defender. Fighters often dish out enough damage to occupy both roles, especially if teamed up with a leader, while a Warden can do plenty of healing.

[Tegu8788]

The most optimum would be a pair of twin strike great bow Rangers that double dipped into shaman MCs. Kite, use spirits as tanks, and each has an encounter heal.


But that's real boring.


I'd double on the Bard as a Leader, and get a Rogue, Monk, or Barbarian as a striker. If you've got Dex, Str, Int, and Cha you've got it mostly covered. Perception will be a weak spot, but otherwise, you are ok.

[Kurald Galain]

I would take a fighter and wizard as classic archetypes that play well with (and off) each other. They complement each other in powers as well as out-of-combat abilities, and both can take some healing abilities to assist one another.

I am aware this isn't optimized though.

[Inevitability]

With only two characters? I'd go for striker+striker. You dash in, kill stuff and then use surges to heal any damage. The WOTC forums have several builds that can kill an at-level monster in a single round.

If necessary, use a controller multiclass feat to mop up minions.

[Naez]

a good combo would be a warlord and a barbarian or any other strength based class.

[masteraleph]

a good combo would be a warlord and a barbarian or any other strength based class.

I'd actually think about something that's not strength based, but that still has an MBA, for versatility of ability scores- something like an Avenger (though that's tricky without other characters), or something hybrided with or otherwise poaching Eldritch Strike.

Although thinking about it, a Warlord and a Barbarian|Warden hybrid would work nicely, and give you strong secondaries in INT or CHA (for the Warlord) and WIS (for the Barbarian|Warden).

[Sol]

Depending on cheese tolerance, two ardents with trailblazing assault and the full charge package.

aug2 until you both run out of power points and/or everything is dead, then heal up.

[Epinephrine]

Hybrids! Seriously, if you need multiple roles filled hybrids can do that pretty well.

[Tegu8788]

Hybrids certainly are potent, give you high defenses with healing or damage.

[Sol]

Hybrids certainly are potent, give you high defenses with healing or damage.

But only, of course, if you know what you're doing. It's far easier to make a terrible hybrid character than it is to make a great one, even with a class combo that works well together.

[Tegu8788]

That goes without saying. A Bard/Druid and a Monk/Paladin aren't going to do very well.

[Sol]

That goes without saying. A Bard/Druid and a Monk/Paladin aren't going to do very well.

Even a ranger|cleric can be accidentally terrible.

[Tegu8788]

Wis melee, Dex range, I can see the trouble. Not using cleric for AC.


Though thinking about it, a proper Cleric|Ranger and Cleric|Barbarian combo could do well. You lack Int and Cha, but you can get away with that is certain campaigns.

[GPuzzle]

Who said you lack the Cha?

THANEBORN BARBARIAN!

[Sol]

Who said you lack the Cha?

THANEBORN BARBARIAN!

Yeah I've always made cleric|barbarians STR/CHA.

And yes, if built correctly that duo could do quite well.

I still say two chargedents, though.

[GPuzzle]

Chargedents are pretty good. They can charge forever! They put Barbarians to shame if done correctly.

[tcrudisi]

Chargedents are pretty good. They can charge forever! They put Barbarians to shame if done correctly.

Yes, for combats. But combat is only half the game. Skills are just as important as combat capabilities. That's why its practically a necessity to have 4 different ability points covered. I'd say you can definitely skip Con and probably Str. But you need the Cha skills, Int skills, Wis skill and Dex skills.

[Nightgaun7]

Yes, for combats. But combat is only half the game. Skills are just as important as combat capabilities. That's why its practically a necessity to have 4 different ability points covered. I'd say you can definitely skip Con and probably Str. But you need the Cha skills, Int skills, Wis skill and Dex skills.

If you don't have them, that just means you need to find some other way to handle the issue. There's nothing wrong with that.

Think of it like this: Conan didn't have Arcana trained, so when a wizard sent a summoned monster after him he used the tools he had - Athletics, Perception, combat, etc.

[GPuzzle]

Yes, for combats. But combat is only half the game. Skills are just as important as combat capabilities. That's why its practically a necessity to have 4 different ability points covered. I'd say you can definitely skip Con and probably Str. But you need the Cha skills, Int skills, Wis skill and Dex skills.

That's not too big of a deal with Chargedents. There's a lot of Int+Cha races, a lot of Dex+Cha races and they can use either Con or Wis.

Either way, they're not going to be godawful in anything with the exception of Athletics.

[Sol]

That's not too big of a deal with Chargedents. There's a lot of Int+Cha races, a lot of Dex+Cha races and they can use either Con or Wis.

Either way, they're not going to be godawful in anything with the exception of Athletics.

Between City Dweller, City Rat, and Secrets of the City, you can use streetwise for almost everything, in an urban environment. How common that is depends on the campaign.

[Laserlight]

If you don't have them, that just means you need to find some other way to handle the issue.

"Grog have lockpick right here," says Grog, hefting his battleaxe.

[tcrudisi]

If you don't have them, that just means you need to find some other way to handle the issue. There's nothing wrong with that.

Think of it like this: Conan didn't have Arcana trained, so when a wizard sent a summoned monster after him he used the tools he had - Athletics, Perception, combat, etc.

Right - can pick anything and say "you need to find some other way to handle the issue." To borrow from 3.5 classes to make a point, you could create 2 Commoners and say, "Well, they don't need to go into combat. They can find other ways of handling issues." And that's true.

The point is to try and decently handle as many things as possible. You /can/ focus on one or two things and do them very well, but that's not how the typical D&D party operates. The typical 4e adventuring party wants to have everything covered and let people do their own job very well. Ergo, you want to make sure you have the important skills covered, too. I suppose you don't need Diplomacy or Arcana - you can find a scholarly wizard, pummel him into unconsciousness, then torture him until he gives you the information you need. That's perfectly valid. But for an ideal 2-person party? Yeah, you probably want Diplomacy and Arcana covered.

Cunning Bard would be an ideal leader. It covers the important Int/Cha skills, can MC several times to pick up more, and cover the skills. The leader is also a necessity in combat. (I argue against 2 strikers because a swingy combat can easily result in a TPK.)

The other PC I'd do would be a Centered Breath Monk (aoe damage, but focus on being single target via vulnerability abuse or the like). Predator Druid also makes a lot of sense - while its a controller, you can easily push that damage up to striker-level and it gets some great skill choices. Just make sure you have Claw Gloves. I can't think of any other Dex/Wis strikers at the moment. Avenger? I don't like it for a 2-person party. Archer Ranger? Ehhhh - maybe. I don't like it unless the Bard decides to go melee. But ouch. Its a cunning bard, not a valorous bard. So I'd rather not see both characters be ranged - ergo I'd lean against archer rangers.

That's what I'd do. Bard + Monk. The Bards primary focus is to grab the Cha/Int skills and worry about hitting. Focus on powers that buff the Monk or debuff the enemy. The Monks primary focus is combat. He can try to grab as many Dex/Wis skills as possible, but mostly Perception, Stealth, Thievery, Insight. Druid is a possibility here, but I think the class skills are a bit more limited.

Will this combination dominate combats? No, but it won't lose any. It can defeat the combats that are thrown at it without worry of someone dying. And it will dominate the out-of-combat aspects. Because of that, I really like this combo better than something like 2 Ardents. Yeah, the Ardents can dominate combats ... I'm just worried about their ability to do well outside of combat.