So it happened, I am OP.

[Talakeal]

Ok, so the other night my DM told me that I need to tone down my character because it has gotten to the point where anything that can challenge me is going to absolutely massacre the rest of the party. A classic dilemma according to these forums.

Here is my build:

Human Fighter 4
16 Str, 16 Cha, 16 Wis, 16 Con, 12 Dex, 11 Int
Masterwork Greatsword, Hand Crossbow, Tower Shield, Banded Mail +1
Feats: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialty, Iron Will, Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack.

[Alaris]

Ok, so the other night my DM told me that I need to tone down my character because it has gotten to the point where anything that can challenge me is going to absolutely massacre the rest of the party. A classic dilemma according to these forums.

Here is my build:

Human Fighter 4
16 Str, 16 Cha, 16 Wis, 16 Con, 12 Dex, 11 Int
Masterwork Greatsword, Hand Crossbow, Tower Shield, Banded Mail +1
Feats: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialty, Iron Will, Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack.

That... is not OP. At all.

I think you are being sarcastic... but I am honestly not sure.

[eggynack]

I can't actually think of much in the way of ways to tone that down. Even combat reflexes, as usually awesome as it is, is pretty useless when used with a greatsword and crossbow, and doubly so with crappy dexterity. I guess power attack is alright though, so you could maybe swap that. Really, what are your party members doing that they can't compete with a fighter with mostly bad feats? I guess they could be monks or NPC classes. Might make sense to try to make them better, because making you worse is tricky business that involves swapping weapon focus level stuff with toughness level stuff.

[OldTrees1]

Honest questions:
What are the other players playing? Including their stats. (Are their stats lower than yours by a good deal?)
What kind of enemies does the DM use?
What is the primary grievance? High AC/Hp? High damage? Number of Attacks? Favored by the dice?

[Greenish]

You could do the same you did with the hand crossbow with your main weapon, and use something you're not proficient with. Nice stats by the way.


[Edit]: Oh, and ditch the tower shield for a heavy one, or for that matter, a buckler. Total cover can be real useful.

[Extra Anchovies]

If that's overpowered in your group, you're in a very low-power group. Also, your DM isn't sending the right sort of challenges at you. Any of the following would give you trouble:

-Incorporeal foes
-Enemies with DR
-Groups of enemies using a mix of ranged + melee attacks (you can use the shield for cover vs ranged, but then you lose the AC bonus against the melee enemies)

There's probably others, I'm a bit low on brainpower right now.

[SiuiS]

Yeah, "tone it down" seems to be based on how you play, not what you play.

[Talakeal]

Totally serious that it happened. It is actually not the first time either, for some reason I always get called OP when I play a fighter.

My stats are pretty good. They were rolled, not point buy. I actually put my (tied for) highest stat into CHA and my racial bonus into WIS to tone down my power.

[eggynack]

If that's overpowered in your group, you're in a very low-power group. Also, your DM isn't sending the right sort of challenges at you. Any of the following would give you trouble:

-Incorporeal foes
-Enemies with DR
-Groups of enemies using a mix of ranged + melee attacks (you can use the shield for cover vs ranged, but then you lose the AC bonus against the melee enemies)

Yeah, I was thinking something like that could work, but it only really makes sense if we're talking competent melee versus incompetent casters. If this is more of a fighter versus an army of monks situation, then varying the challenges isn't likely to help too much.

[Berenger]

Use the crossbow for melee attacks and the sword for ranged attacks.

Problem solved.

[eggynack]

Totally serious that it happened. It is actually not the first time either, for some reason I always get called OP when I play a fighter.

My stats are pretty good. They were rolled, not point buy. I actually put my (tied for) highest stat into CHA and my racial bonus into WIS to tone down my power.
Same questions apply then. What are the other party members doing, and what about what you're doing is being perceived as overpowered? Might plausibly be worth going the classic "Optimize in a way that looks less optimal" route. My preferred way of pulling that off is with a god wizard strategy, destroying every challenge while making it look like others are doing the work. Doesn't work in all situations, but there are definitely setups, particularly ones where power is measured in damage done, where it makes for a good plan.

[Greenish]

Totally serious that it happened. It is actually not the first time either, for some reason I always get called OP when I play a fighter.

My stats are pretty good. They were rolled, not point buy. I actually put my (tied for) highest stat into CHA and my racial bonus into WIS to tone down my power.I did notice your curious arrangement, but in hindsight, maybe putting good stats in Str and Con were too much?

Not that it really matters, but you could have mentioned this was PF.

[137beth]

Try a commoner?
I'm curious what the rest of your party is like.

[Talakeal]

Not that it really matters, but you could have mentioned this was PF.

I didn't really see a difference in this regard between the editions. What does that change?


Try a commoner?
I'm curious what the rest of your party is like.

Monk, Witch, Magus, Cleric, Druid I think. The DM wants us to keep meta game knowledge to ourselves and we can't describe our characters to each other OOC.

[emeraldstreak]

Ok, so the other night my DM told me that I need to tone down my character because it has gotten to the point where anything that can challenge me is going to absolutely massacre the rest of the party. A classic dilemma according to these forums.

Here is my build:

Human Fighter 4
16 Str, 16 Cha, 16 Wis, 16 Con, 12 Dex, 11 Int
Masterwork Greatsword, Hand Crossbow, Tower Shield, Banded Mail +1
Feats: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialty, Iron Will, Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack.


ludicrously OP
/s


Between you and me, your DM is a noob. Don't take this campaign seriously and just have some fun at his expense.

[Psyren]

If you're actually trying to solve this issue, I'll echo the excellent questions posed by OldTrees1.

If you're simply posting for incredulity's sake ("Wow Playground, can you believe this?!") then there's nothing practical we can do beyond echo your sentiments. ("Wow, no way, what's your DM smoking, omg," etc.)

[Tommy2255]

Monk, Witch, Magus, Cleric, Druid I think. The DM wants us to keep meta game knowledge to ourselves and we can't describe our characters to each other OOC.

Is your DM one of those "Fighters can't have nice things" types, who gets pissy because being able to do moderate amounts of damage as often as necessary is *totally OP* compared to breaking everything a few times a day?

[Talakeal]

If you're actually trying to solve this issue, I'll echo the excellent questions posed by OldTrees1.

If you're simply posting for incredulity's sake ("Wow Playground, can you believe this?!") then there's nothing practical we can do beyond echo your sentiments. ("Wow, no way, what's your DM smoking, omg," etc.)

Mostly the latter, however it would be cool if someone could tell me how to "tone down" my build without getting whomped by the first actual threat I come across or just flat out playing stupid.



Is your DM one of those "Fighters can't have nice things" types, who gets pissy because being able to do moderate amounts of damage as often as necessary is *totally OP* compared to breaking everything a few times a day?

Sort of. He also bans blaster wizards because they are totally OP. I think he just looks at the game in terms of pure damage output / survivability.

[JackRackham]

DM obviously sees hp damage as the be-all, end-all. So, volunteer to be a wizard and ban evocation. Bat-man it and make your party's jobs laughably easy.

[eggynack]

Sort of. He also bans blaster wizards because they are totally OP. I think he just looks at the game in terms of pure damage output / survivability.
Right, that's what I thought was happening. In that case, the answer is probably to optimize more. Boosting damage is on the suboptimal side of things, after all, and survivability tends to be even worse if it detracts significantly from your ability to do other things. So, ditch that stuff. Lock down the battlefield, buff your friends, debuff your enemies, and maybe toss in some utility. I mentioned wizard before, but bard might be even better, especially if you're in a group that sees bards as much less powerful than they are.

[Greenish]

I didn't really see a difference in this regard between the editions. What does that change?Not much in regards to your current character, but we can't do much sans proper context.


Mostly the latter, however it would be cool if someone could tell me how to "tone down" my build without getting whomped by the first actual threat I come across or just flat out playing stupid.

Sort of. He also bans blaster wizards because they are totally OP. I think he just looks at the game in terms of pure damage output / survivability.Well, not much you can do with a fighter that'd reduce your damage output or survivability without compromising your ability to not get whomped. The recommendation for a god wizard or similar force multiplier is probably the most relevant.

[Extra Anchovies]

DM obviously sees hp damage as the be-all, end-all. So, volunteer to be a wizard and ban evocation. Bat-man it and make your party's jobs laughably easy.

Seconded. Focus on battlefield control, then debuffs, then buffs.

[Talakeal]

DM obviously sees hp damage as the be-all, end-all. So, volunteer to be a wizard and ban evocation. Bat-man it and make your party's jobs laughably easy.

Three problems:

1: I don't want to switch characters mid game.
2: I don't particularly like playing a spell caster.
3: I am pretty sure the DM would just ignore or flat out ban most of batman's tricks.


Right, that's what I thought was happening. In that case, the answer is probably to optimize more. Boosting damage is on the suboptimal side of things, after all, and survivability tends to be even worse if it detracts significantly from your ability to do other things. So, ditch that stuff. Lock down the battlefield, buff your friends, debuff your enemies, and maybe toss in some utility. I mentioned wizard before, but bard might be even better, especially if you're in a group that sees bards as much less powerful than they are.

Bards are banned.

[Aegis013]

Sort of. He also bans blaster wizards because they are totally OP. I think he just looks at the game in terms of pure damage output / survivability.

In that case, reduce one of these two things. Easiest way would probably be by asking to switch to a less powerful melee weapon or something. It'll seem like you're scaling back, but the weapon dice are usually one of the lowest parts of the damage output for a melee guy. Even two handing a longsword will only give you an average loss of 2.5 damage per attack, which hurts at low levels, but it will hopefully appease your DM.

[Bronk]

Mostly the latter, however it would be cool if someone could tell me how to "tone down" my build without getting whomped by the first actual threat I come across or just flat out playing stupid.

Wow, good luck! Low levels is the time for a fighter to shine, after all! This might be more towards the playing silly end of things, but maybe switch to a dagger and don't use your power attack except for emergencies... at least until your DM wises up from the shame of it all.

[JackRackham]

Three problems:

1: I don't want to switch characters mid game.
2: I don't particularly like playing a spell caster.
3: I am pretty sure the DM would just ignore or flat out ban most of batman's tricks.



Bards are banned.

BARDS are BANNED!? Lol. Why?

[137beth]

Three problems:

1: I don't want to switch characters mid game.
2: I don't particularly like playing a spell caster.
3: I am pretty sure the DM would just ignore or flat out ban most of batman's tricks.



Bards are banned.

Well, if you need to do something other than hit-point damage, and you don't want to play a spellcaster, you are kind of stuck unless you look outside of pathfinder. There are an abundance of ways for a 3.5 fighter to do stuff other than hit-point damage, but I can't think of many in pathfinder.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I didn't really see a difference in this regard between the editions. What does that change?

Lots of things: feat choices, what said feats do change between the two editions, spells and (alternate) class features available.


Monk, Witch, Magus, Cleric, Druid I think. The DM wants us to keep meta game knowledge to ourselves and we can't describe our characters to each other OOC.

That sounds like an unnecessary restriction. People working together works only logically mention their strengths and weaknesses in life and death situations.

[Greenish]

You don't really have the Dex for it, but you could go for a reach weapon (less damage than a greatsword, too) and try your hand at control anyway. Combat maneuvers give you some non-damage ability to control the battle (theoretically), and you can still switch to Power Attack full attack if the situation warrants.

You don't have the feats to make much of the maneuvers, but then, it's not like you have many options within your limits (same character, less damage/survivablity, no increased whompability). If toning down involves partial rebuild, though, you could get somewhere.

[Talakeal]

BARDS are BANNED!? Lol. Why?

They are too versatile and make every other class obsolete.

My DM views bards much like this forum views T1 casters.

[JackRackham]

Well, if you need to do something other than hit-point damage, and you don't want to play a spellcaster, you are kind of stuck unless you look outside of pathfinder. There are an abundance of ways for a 3.5 fighter to do stuff other than hit-point damage, but I can't think of many in pathfinder.

He could maybe make a mediocre trip-build in PF? That might work. Less focus on HP damage, more party support, crowd control.

[eggynack]

Bards are banned.
Well, that's certainly not a thing I was expecting. Why would he ban bards? In any case, if you're sticking with this character, and can't change anyone else's character, then it might make sense to just give your existing fighter more of a tendency towards battlefield control. I don't know the exact best way to pull that off in pathfinder, but standard tripping can't be too far away from reasonable.

Alternatively, run away. Seriously, I read that other thread about ridiculous fiat-dependent rules, and now I'm looking at this one, with all of its ridiculousness, and if one of those things wasn't sufficient, then both probably is. It's just not a good situation where you are. I mean, there could be a morbid curiosity factor there, learning about how much stupider things can get, but it doesn't sound like you're having much fun.

[JackRackham]

They are too versatile and make every other class obsolete.

My DM views bards much like this forum views T1 casters.

Oh, wow. This guy needs a math class.

[Greenish]

They are too versatile and make every other class obsolete.

My DM views bards much like this forum views T1 casters.That sounds like he's seen someone play a bard at least halfway competently, which would make them shine against, well, whatever your group is doing.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

They are too versatile and make every other class obsolete.

My DM views bards much like this forum views T1 casters.

I... I don't even. Not only it's the bard not capable of doubt everything (no trapfinding, limited spells and proficiencies), but inspire courage and the rest of the bard songs are amazing force multipliers! They work better with people, not without!

[EisenKreutzer]

Seems like this GM has some pretty weird ideas about what is overpowered and what needs fixing.

Maybe you should introduce him to the Tier system? Not because the Tiers are the be all, end all of measuring class power, but just to give him a different perspective on the relative power of the classes. It might open his eyes. Or it might not.

[Talakeal]

Well, that's certainly not a thing I was expecting. Why would he ban bards? In any case, if you're sticking with this character, and can't change anyone else's character, then it might make sense to just give your existing fighter more of a tendency towards battlefield control. I don't know the exact best way to pull that off in pathfinder, but standard tripping can't be too far away from reasonable.

Alternatively, run away. Seriously, I read that other thread about ridiculous fiat-dependent rules, and now I'm looking at this one, with all of its ridiculousness, and if one of those things wasn't sufficient, then both probably is. It's just not a good situation where you are. I mean, there could be a morbid curiosity factor there, learning about how much stupider things can get, but it doesn't sound like you're having much fun.

As I said in that thread, it isn't that the game is not fun. There are just all sorts of little quirks that make me scratch my head and get slightly annoyed, but overall I am still having fun.

Of course, a lot of said fun is that I deal 90% of the groups damage and get to feel like the big damn hero all the time, so...

[Psyren]

You can redo your fighter to be focused on control. Tripping, Dirty Tricks, grappling, anything.

You can also tone down your damage by focusing on sword-and-board style combat. It's weaker, sure, but you can still be effective and the party will appreciate you being a wall between them and the bad.

[Chaosvii7]

Bards are banned.

Okay, now this is my problem.

I think the only solution is to teach him how to play 3.5. Make him an account and tell him to redirect every single question here. He will get ironed out, easy.

[137beth]

He could maybe make a mediocre trip-build in PF? That might work. Less focus on HP damage, more party support, crowd control.

In pathfinder improved trip was split into two feats, so it is a bit harder to do well without planning for it from level 1. Also, all flying creatures are automatically immune to tripping, so it is much weaker than in 3.5.
Then again, doing something well isn't really the goal here, so maybe a trip build would work.

[Talakeal]

Seems like this GM has some pretty weird ideas about what is overpowered and what needs fixing.

Maybe you should introduce him to the Tier system? Not because the Tiers are the be all, end all of measuring class power, but just to give him a different perspective on the relative power of the classes. It might open his eyes. Or it might not.

I tried explaining it to him, he dismissed it and said he would just hand waive it away with FIAT.

I found his solution to the DMM cleric especially interesting. Have the cleric's superior confiscate all of their night sticks and similar items. If the cleric refuses they are now branded a CE heretic and every paladin and good cleric in the world will kill them on sight.

[Greenish]

I... I don't even. Not only it's the bard not capable of doubt everything (no trapfinding, limited spells and proficiencies),Anyone can find traps in PF, even ignoring the Archeologist archetype, and bard's limitations are a non-issue at the levels of power that group seems to play. (To stress the point, in the OP the OP talks about how his deliberately toned-down fighter is OP.)

[Tommy2255]

I tried explaining it to him, he dismissed it and said he would just hand waive it away with FIAT.

I found his solution to the DMM cleric especially interesting. Have the cleric's superior confiscate all of their night sticks and similar items. If the cleric refuses they are now branded a CE heretic and every paladin and good cleric in the world will kill them on sight.

...what? That's completely insane. Did he even give a reason why it would be considered heretical? Or why he would abuse the already flimsy alignment system just to **** you over? Why are you still playing with this person?

[Squark]

Well, as long as you're having fun, no reason to stop playing, but... That statement might be a bit of a sign of things to come.

[Blackhawk748]

Human Fighter 4
16 Str, 16 Cha, 16 Wis, 16 Con, 12 Dex, 11 Int
Masterwork Greatsword, Hand Crossbow, Tower Shield, Banded Mail +1
Feats: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialty, Iron Will, Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack.

Dude, your build is................ im not sure what to call it. You do nice consistent damage, you shored up your Will save a bit, you get extra AOs and you have Power Attack which is pretty much standard for TH Fighter.

And by the Nine Hells you are wearing BANDED MAIL, seriously am I the only one that noticed that?? Unless PF changed its stats, its pretty lousy. Though i gotta say, nice rolls there, you have a very happy fighter.

The only way to "nerf" your "op" fighter is to take away WF, WS, and Power Attack, and i have absolutely no idea what to replace those with. Honestly i think your DM is hitting you guys with to low CR encounters, honestly a Shadow would wreck you personally, anything that flies would definitely hurt, though you might kill it eventually.

[EisenKreutzer]

I tried explaining it to him, he dismissed it and said he would just hand waive it away with FIAT.

I found his solution to the DMM cleric especially interesting. Have the cleric's superior confiscate all of their night sticks and similar items. If the cleric refuses they are now branded a CE heretic and every paladin and good cleric in the world will kill them on sight.

Thats... Thats certainly one way to do it..

Listen, I don't mean to be an ass, but your DM is terrible. He's seeing problems where there are none, his methods for dealing with game issues is horrible to say the least.
My guess is he's either not taken the time to read everything properly, or he's learned gaming from someone who had a less than stellar grasp on both the system and roleplaying games in general.

[Talakeal]

...what? That's completely insane. Did he even give a reason why it would be considered heretical? Or why he would abuse the already flimsy alignment system just to **** you over? Why are you still playing with this person?

Well, disobeying a direct order from a superior is chaotic. Not helping a high level cleric, who clearly is working towards the greater good, is evil. Pissing off s powerful cleric will get you excommunicated and therefore branded a heretic.

Honestly this sort of thing is jre humurous than frustrating to me, atleast when talking about it in the abstract.

[Blackhawk748]

On a side note, i know a guy who hates Bards, but he would never ban them. He just despises them. I was never sure why though. And while bards can be insanely versatile, they then suffer from Jack of All Trades-Master of None Syndrome.

[Bulhakov]

I'll repeat the advice stated earlier - work more towards versatility instead of pure damage.
Take some feats towards unarmed fighting and improvised weapons? Maybe focus on the bow more o


Another way is to look away from stats and go for roleplayed limitations. Maybe your character finds religion, gets philosophical or chooses to challenge/test himself and decides to take some kind of vow limiting his fighting options?
Some ideas for a good guy:
- no-killing of sentient enemies
- no dealing of lethal damage
- will never strike first against a sentient enemy, always attempting parley before violence or challenge someone to single combat

Some ideas for a tough/berserker guy:
- shields and helmets are for wusses
- will not wear armor for a month
- decides to kill all enemies with his bare hands

This might lead to dipping into Paladin or Barbarian in the future.

[Feint's End]

Well, disobeying a direct order from a superior is chaotic. Not helping a high level cleric, who clearly is working towards the greater good, is evil. Pissing off s powerful cleric will get you excommunicated and therefore branded a heretic.

Honestly this sort of thing is jre humurous than frustrating to me, atleast when talking about it in the abstract.

@point 2 first ... I kind of get you there. This stuff is so bad it's getting hilarious. In all honesty if I were in your spot then I'd see how far I can get that DM but that's maybe just my idea :smallamused:.

@point 1: So what if a dominated superior Paladin orders your Paladin to massacre innocent people who can't defend themselves and you refuse? Are you automatically fallen then?

I personally wouldn't play with somebody like this unless the person would be cooperative to change or at least discuss their ways.

[Tvtyrant]

On a side note, i know a guy who hates Bards, but he would never ban them. He just despises them. I was never sure why though. And while bards can be insanely versatile, they then suffer from Jack of All Trades-Master of None Syndrome.

Isn't that why everyone gets Bardic Knack and Jack of all Trades so they can play a Master of All Trades?

To the OP (which is hilarious with the title; yes you are an OP OP) my suggestion is that you focus on ineffective tactics. Disarming foes, sundering swords, back pedaling while shooting crossbow bolts, etc. If your character can not be challenged then you have the room to play for fun rather than just trying to kill your opponents.

[emeraldstreak]

I'll repeat the advice stated earlier - work more towards...

"Working towards" is appeasement, and appeasement is not always the best policy.

[Blackhawk748]

Isn't that why everyone gets Bardic Knack and Jack of all Trades so they can play a Master of All Trades?

Shhhh. Dont let him know that. :smallbiggrin:

[Andezzar]

Monk, Witch, Magus, Cleric, Druid I think. The DM wants us to keep meta game knowledge to ourselves and we can't describe our characters to each other OOC.Did Pathfinder nerf the cleric and druid to uselessness, or are the players of those classes not familiar with the power of these classes? I'm not familiar with the tier/power of witch and magus.

@DMM Cleric: while nightsticks surely boost such a cleric's power, such a build even works without a single one. persisted Divine Power alone lets the cleric outshine the fighter.

[emeraldstreak]

The Witch is a beast. The Magus can be pretty amazing too. There's no question OP's figher is the weakest class in general.

[Andezzar]

So the problem seems to lie with the players and the DM. So teach them (the DM as well as the other players), if that does not work, offer to DM and continue to try to teach them. If they still remain willfully ignorant of the game, look for a new group.

[Troacctid]

I mean, what's the difference between you and the iconic fighter (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/iconic-characters/valeros---iconic-fighter/valeros-iconic-fighter-7)? Slightly different ability scores, power atttack and iron will instead of two-weapon fighting and two-weapon defense, and that's it?

[Nihilarian]

The Witch is a beast. The Magus can be pretty amazing too. There's no question OP's figher is the weakest class in general.There's a monk, too, so maybe not.

Anyway, I agree, go for a control build. Grab a polearm and trip everything.

Also, your DM sucks.

[Talakeal]

And by the Nine Hells you are wearing BANDED MAIL, seriously am I the only one that noticed that?? .

AFAIK we don't play with money or crafting and all of our gear comes from loot. The banded mail is the only magic armor we have yet found, and there has been no mundane full plate so far, which afaik is the only mundane armor that is better once you factor in the +1.

[Telonius]

AFAIK we don't play with money or crafting and all of our gear comes from loot. The banded mail is the only magic armor we have yet found, and there has been no mundane full plate so far, which afaik is the only mundane armor that is better once you factor in the +1.

...


AFAIK we don't play with money or crafting and all of our gear comes from loot.

...


AFAIK we don't play with money or crafting

...


we don't play with money

All right, the DM has just passed from "terrible" to "... okay, he's playing some sort of vaguely D&D-like game that is thoroughly unrecognizable to most people's D&D experiences." Whatever you're playing, it's going to get weirder from here on out.

[nedz]

OK, I'm a little late on this thread but it does strike me as a classic example of Player > Build > Class; though at at level 4 Fighters are competitive. Just tell your DM that different characters peak in power at different levels; after all the casters are one level shy of level 3 spells, which is when spells start to get powerful. I'm not sure this will help though, it does seem that your DM doesn't really know the system.

[georgie_leech]

...



...



...



All right, the DM has just passed from "terrible" to "... okay, he's playing some sort of vaguely D&D-like game that is thoroughly unrecognizable to most people's D&D experiences." Whatever you're playing, it's going to get weirder from here on out.

Agreed. Do keep us updated OP, this seems like it'll be fun to "watch." :smallbiggrin:

[Feint's End]

Agreed. Do keep us updated OP, this seems like it'll be fun to "watch." :smallbiggrin:

upvote this :smallbiggrin: ... can't afford to to lose out on some good old fashioned laughter

[TandemChelipeds]

Monk, Witch, Magus, Cleric, Druid I think. The DM wants us to keep meta game knowledge to ourselves and we can't describe our characters to each other OOC.

>2014
>DM fears hp damage
>DM bans bards
>DM doesn't know about shocking grasp shenanigans

[Talakeal]

I dont want to pick on anyone. This group is very eccentric and a very different style to what i am used to, but at the moment is. Still quite a lot of fun, and dont eant to hurt anyones feelings should they happen to stumble upon this thread.

[Blackhawk748]

I agree, this could be really interesting, also what in gods name is that magus doing? From what i understand the Magus is basically a Duskblade.

[TandemChelipeds]

I dont want to pick on anyone. This group is very eccentric and a very different style to what i am used to, but at the moment is. Still quite a lot of fun, and dont eant to hurt anyones feelings should they happen to stumble upon this thread.

Yeah, to be fair, a lot of this DM's ideas are actually really similar to some of my own perceptions and ideas for unconventional playstyles back when I was new to DnD. I shouldn't pick on them too hard, I just think it's funny that the Magus isn't banned. Magi are magnificent at dealing damage.


I agree, this could be really interesting, also what in gods name is that magus doing? From what i understand the Magus is basically a Duskblade.

In concept, basically yes. In execution, the magus can pull all kinds of amazing tricks in combat, like casting touch spells directly through their weapon as they hit an enemy with it, getting in a regular attack and a spell in the same standard action. Which is really effective for dealing damage when used in conjunction with the spell shocking grasp, hence my comment about shocking grasp shenanigans.

[Feint's End]

I dont want to pick on anyone. This group is very eccentric and a very different style to what i am used to, but at the moment is. Still quite a lot of fun, and dont eant to hurt anyones feelings should they happen to stumble upon this thread.

Please do not misinterpret our intentions (or at least mine ... can't speak for everybody). There is no wrong way playing Pathfinder or D&D so if you all have fun and enjoy the game then this is nice and dandy for everybody. The way this particular DM percieves balancing and the shenanigans that ensue are quite fun for us more experienced folks.


I agree, this could be really interesting, also what in gods name is that magus doing? From what i understand the Magus is basically a Duskblade.

Think Duskblade with better classfeatures (especially more synergy for spellcasting + fighting), a better spelllist and spellcasting + more flexibility. That's about right then. It is important to note that from level 13 onwards Duskblades are somewhat better for persistent damage due to full attack channeling but the burst capabilities of Magi are much higher and their overall capability and smoothness pull them ahead.

[emeraldstreak]

dont want to hurt anyones feelings should they happen to stumble upon this thread.

I think you have nothing to worry about...

[georgie_leech]

I think you have nothing to worry about...

I doubt it. Inexperienced players and DM's do wander in from time to time; trouble is the GitP Community has a fairly strong grasp of optimisation that is intimidating unless you either optimise yourself or spend a while lurking.

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah, to be fair, a lot of this DM's ideas are actually really similar to some of my own perceptions and ideas for unconventional playstyles back when I was new to DnD.

Yeah, same here, hell the OPs build reminds me of my first character, which was a Ranger, not a Fighter, but i look back at that build now and...............i shudder. I will stat that yours is better than mine, i was wielding a repeating crossbow and i took Toughness, i am so ashamed

[Theomniadept]

WHOA WHOA WHOA....dude...4 levels of fighter is WAY too overpowered. Well known fact, you currently are playing THE most broken class ever made, only because Samurai is an outright banned class for being able to pretty much negate the need for a party.

[TandemChelipeds]

WHOA WHOA WHOA....dude...4 levels of fighter is WAY too overpowered. Well known fact, you currently are playing THE most broken class ever made, only because Samurai is an outright banned class for being able to pretty much negate the need for a party.

I see your Samurai and raise you Truenamer.

[EisenKreutzer]

I see your Samurai and raise you Truenamer.

The funny thing is this DM would probably ban the Truenamer for being OP...

No wait, thats the sad thing..

[Threadnaught]

I doubt it. Inexperienced players and DM's do wander in from time to time; trouble is the GitP Community has a fairly strong grasp of optimisation that is intimidating unless you either optimise yourself or spend a while lurking.

Yeah, but they're hardly going to start crying because someone on the internet said they had game breaking powers they weren't using.

DM is hardly gonna quit DMing forever, just because it's clear to everyone here that the DM has no idea how to handle damage dealers, it seems rather clear to the DM after all.


If anyone from the OP's game comes here, the most likely outcome would be utter confusion at what the people posting are referring to, and questions about why people enjoy games with no challenge whatsoever.

[Vhaidara]

The funny thing is this DM would probably ban the Truenamer for being OP...

No wait, thats the sad thing..

Wait, solution!

Your GM considers blasters OP.

Get a black, hooded robe and a copy of Complete Arcane. Open to the page with Warlock on it, and approach your GM, book in one hand, with the other raised holding a totem of your choice (I'm partial to a necklace with a d20 on it) saying "The power of Asmodeus compels you! The power of Asmodeus compels you!"

[EisenKreutzer]

To be fair, it's easy to get stuck in a frame of mind.

In our D&D game I got permission from the DM to use Tome of Battle, and made a Warblade. Every time I use a manouver that does kind of good damage (like 5d6 at 10th lvl), our DM makes this face like he can't believe what he's seeing or how he allowed that. Until I remind him our Wizard/Incantatrix regularly pumps out much more damaging effects than me, at which point he grudgingly admits that yes, it's not that overpowered.

He's just been conditioned into expecting a certain thing from a melee class, and when I deviate from the norm he's so used to he bucks like a mule; in reality, the Warblade isn't OP, he's just a tiny bit closer to the Tier 1 classes in terms of damage potential.

[Threadnaught]

Every time I use a manouver that does kind of good damage (like 5d6 at 10th lvl), our DM makes this face like he can't believe what he's seeing or how he allowed that.

Fireball! Hahahahaha!

[Nihilarian]

The funny thing is this DM would probably ban the Truenamer for being OP...

No wait, thats the sad thing..To be fair I would ban the Truenamer too.

[Vhaidara]

To be fair I would ban the Truenamer too.

Yes, but the difference is banning it for being OP (this GM) and banning it for being a trap (sensible people).

[Balmas]

I tried explaining it to him, he dismissed it and said he would just hand waive it away with FIAT.

I found his solution to the DMM cleric especially interesting. Have the cleric's superior confiscate all of their night sticks and similar items. If the cleric refuses they are now branded a CE heretic and every paladin and good cleric in the world will kill them on sight.

Soooo... Refusing to give up an item that allows a cleric to turn undead is an evil action? :smallannoyed:


Well, disobeying a direct order from a superior is chaotic. Not helping a high level cleric, who clearly is working towards the greater good, is evil. Pissing off s powerful cleric will get you excommunicated and therefore branded a heretic.

Honestly this sort of thing is jre humurous than frustrating to me, atleast when talking about it in the abstract.

Put it this way. The only thing that would drop you straight to Chaotic Evil, I think, would be playing a paladin that disobeyed orders so he could slaughter a caravan of orphans. Even casting spells with the [Evil] descriptor takes a few times before you shift even one space on the alignment scale.

[Shinken]

I have yet to see a thread so filled with condescension. It's both saddening and nauseating.

[EisenKreutzer]

Soooo... Refusing to give up an item that allows a cleric to turn undead is an evil action? :smallannoyed:



Put it this way. The only thing that would drop you straight to Chaotic Evil, I think, would be playing a paladin that disobeyed orders so he could slaughter a caravan of orphans. Even casting spells with the [Evil] descriptor takes a few times before you shift even one space on the alignment scale.

See, I'm not even on board with that scenario. To shift to CE, that paladin would have to suddenly want to kill a caravan full of orphans. He has to suddenly start believing that killing those orphans is the right thing to do, that he has a right to do it and that doing it is important and natural. And further, he has to suddenly start hating laws, regulations and anything that stands between him and what he wants. He has to suddenly transform from a chivalric, holy crusader into a Nietzschian overman, who see laws and rules as the weaks way of controlling the strong.

Thats one hell of a personality shift just for refusing to hand in an item to your superior...

[Nihilarian]

I have yet to see a thread so filled with condescension. It's both saddening and nauseating.I'm sorry you get nauseated at fairly typical internet discussion?

[Hiro Protagonest]

I have yet to see a thread so filled with condescension. It's both saddening and nauseating.

You must not have been around for the tales of Marty Stu DMPC and his ultimate katana.

Actually, you must not have been on the internet long in general, unless you expect GitP to be the greatest place on the internet ever and absolutely free of any kind of negative attitudes. I step into the front page of /tg/ and see worse. Or any kind of general chat in a MMO.

[eggynack]

Actually, you must not have been on the internet long in general, unless you expect GitP to be the greatest place on the internet ever and absolutely free of any kind of negative attitudes. I step into the front page of /tg/ and see worse. Or any kind of general chat in a MMO.
Yeah, this isn't even at a level of problematic where I would expect any kind of moderation, at least not yet.

[Extra Anchovies]

Yeah, this isn't even at a level of problematic where I would expect any kind of moderation, at least not yet.

The point at which we start going off on this sort of tangent tends to be when moderators start taking action. Let's get this back on topic. Namely, how to fix a fighter without nerfing them (because eventually casters will start to outshine whether they want to or not).

I would agree with those suggesting a tripping BFC fighter, but you don't have the Int for Combat Expertise (and thus can't get Improved Trip). Maybe just stop using the tower shield and hand crossbow? You aren't proficient with hand crossbow anyways, and eliminating the portable cover makes you more susceptible to ranged enemies. Or just tone down your style of play, focus more on tanking than on damage.

[eggynack]

The point at which we start going off on this sort of tangent tends to be when moderators start taking action. Let's get this back on topic. Namely, how to fix a fighter without nerfing them (because eventually casters will start to outshine whether they want to or not).

I would agree with those suggesting a tripping BFC fighter, but you don't have the Int for Combat Expertise (and thus can't get Improved Trip). Maybe just stop using the tower shield and hand crossbow? You aren't proficient with hand crossbow anyways, and eliminating the portable cover makes you more susceptible to ranged enemies. Or just tone down your style of play, focus more on tanking than on damage.
The problem with fixing this problem is that I just have no idea. Like, maybe tripping will work, sure, but maybe the DM has some weird anti-tripping thing. We know from a past thread, assuming this is the same DM, that the AoO half of an AoO tripping build will fall flat, but for all we know the tripping half will have some weirdness attached to it also. I dunno. I've just felt like these efforts are futile ever since it turned out that bards are banned. I have no accurate way to measure how this DM will react to any given game object, and I suspect the same is the case of other folk.

[Greenish]

I doubt it. Inexperienced players and DM's do wander in from time to time; trouble is the GitP Community has a fairly strong grasp of optimisation that is intimidating unless you either optimise yourself or spend a while lurking.I stumbled on these forums, I had some vague ideas how badass a fighter using bastard swords with TWF would be.

…Now, I think I could actually pull it off.

I have no accurate way to measure how this DM will react to any given game object, and I suspect the same is the case of other folk.This, pretty much. The game the DM is running isn't the one we know how to play. If it had houserules instead of fiat, there'd be something to work with (and it wouldn't make me feel like I had rash).


Still, if people are mostly enjoying it, well, you know.

[Nihilarian]

Maybe Stand Still instead of Improved Trip?

[Talakeal]

Maybe Stand Still instead of Improved Trip?

The DM doesn't use AoOs. Except when he does.

[The Insanity]

The problem with fixing this problem is that I just have no idea.
The problem is the DM. Unfortunately, you can't fix people.

[TandemChelipeds]

What I'm curious about is how the other players are playing if an unoptimized fighter can outshine them. I mean, hell, if the OP's interpretations are correct, two of them are CoDzilla. And one of the others is a Magus, which is extremely powerful by this DM's measuring stick. Nothing about this situation really makes sense.

[eggynack]

The problem is the DM. Unfortunately, you can't fix people.
Well, yeah, but you can sometimes finagle around their oddities, which often follow a reasonably consistent pattern, and get to a reasonably good state. In this case, where the DM hates incredibly standard fighters, bards, the rules for AoO's, shopping for items, and maybe theoretically good spell use, I just don't see such a pattern. Any suggestion I could make would be more or less a crap shoot. What might really make sense here is just asking the DM what exactly he wants, and then figure out a way to make things work from there. You would theoretically be able to take the iterative approach with a caster, seeing what types of spells he's cool with by testing as many as possible at relatively low cost, but that's not really a thing you can do efficiently on a melee guy.

[Eslin]

In concept, basically yes. In execution, the magus can pull all kinds of amazing tricks in combat, like casting touch spells directly through their weapon as they hit an enemy with it, getting in a regular attack and a spell in the same standard action. Which is really effective for dealing damage when used in conjunction with the spell shocking grasp, hence my comment about shocking grasp shenanigans.

I think you pretty much just described the duskblade's defining feature there.

[Talakeal]

Well, yeah, but you can sometimes finagle around their oddities, which often follow a reasonably consistent pattern, and get to a reasonably good state. In this case, where the DM hates incredibly standard fighters, bards, the rules for AoO's, shopping for items, and maybe theoretically good spell use, I just don't see such a pattern. Any suggestion I could make would be more or less a crap shoot. What might really make sense here is just asking the DM what exactly he wants, and then figure out a way to make things work from there. You would theoretically be able to take the iterative approach with a caster, seeing what types of spells he's cool with by testing as many as possible at relatively low cost, but that's not really a thing you can do efficiently on a melee guy.

I have asked. He wants us to start roleplaying and stop meta-gaming / power gaming. Not sure exactly what this means.

[Greenish]

I think you pretty much just described the duskblade's defining feature there.The difference is, magus' channeling the spell through a weapon and casting whilst attacking are two separate and independent features. The casting whilst attacking requires a full round action (but allows for a full attack), but you can cast anything, not just touch attack stuff.

Magus also has slightly wider spell list, up to 6th level spells, and prepares spells from spellbook, with the usual ramifications.


Only medium BAB, though, and channeling doesn't allow multiple hits with the same spell.

[eggynack]

I have asked. He wants us to start roleplaying and stop meta-gaming / power gaming. Not sure exactly what this means.
Might be worth telling him that this build is actually really bad (so sayeth the internet), and that it's really hard to tell how to reduce power gaming from this point. Alternatively, you could try something like the following: "Look, if you want me to do something in particular, tell me what that thing is and we can work something out. If you don't have something specific for me to change, then stop complaining about the things that are happening, because they presumably have no solution. As is though, I'm not a mind-reader, and a request as vague as the one you've made is pretty meaningless." Could feasibly work.

[Curbstomp]

Show your current DM what normal level 6 character can do who focuses a little.

Here is an example: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?373808-Integrating-Mounted-Combat-into-a-Campaign

Look at my last post there. Show him the math. And how much weaker than that your character is in terms of average damage output. You are NOT OP at all and he should know that.

Better than that, have him PM me and I'll explain it to him. I'd be happy to provide a few dozen examples.

[Greenish]

Show him the math.It doesn't matter. What matters are the other characters in his party. I have no idea* how they're managing to be so badly upstaged by him, but by both OP's and the DM's reckoning, they are.

Besides, you can't argue numbers with someone who thinks a problem doesn't exist if it can be fiated away.



*(Unless they're all True RoleplayersTM who've taken the "weaknesses are more interesting than strengths" thing to an extreme.)

[Curbstomp]

Yeah there is that. But to be honest, even my weakest and newest players are playing characters at least as powerful as the OP's. Literally people who know nothing about the game rules are at equivalent or better power. Just seems like a very inexperienced DM to me. Especially in conjunction with this other thread by our original poster: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?373995-Are-all-DM-s-control-freaks

[Greenish]

Even with that, given that Talakeal was asked to tone himself down instead of the DM going on a heavy-handed banning spree (which is what some new DMs resort to, so props for the DM), I can't imagine the rest of the group is underperforming just because of the DM. Yet they tangibly are, going by what Talakeal said about dealing 90% of the group's damage and so forth.

[Andezzar]

I have asked. He wants us to start roleplaying and stop meta-gaming / power gaming. Not sure exactly what this means.Ask him what he considers metagaming. From a roleplaying perspective I see the role of someone who has learned to hit things hard and now is hitting things kind of hard. Nothing wrong with that.

Please enlighten us how the other players are playing their roles (unstoppable force of nature/conduit of a god's power). Unless the players of the cleric and druid are only attacking instead of using their spells and other abilities, I really can't see how they are outshone by the fighter. Heck, the animal companion alone should be on par with the fighter.

[Segev]

My best advice would be to vaguely echo some of the others in this thread: ask him what it is that he feels is too powerful in your character. Tell him honestly that you don't know how to fix it, but are willing to work with him to do so.

Ask him if you can wait until next level to try; mention that the prepped casters get 3rd level spells next level, so it might be that the rest of the party will "catch up" with you automatically by then. But again, ask him what it is that he feels you're too good at. Ask for suggestions on what to do to reduce it.

If it's "your saves are too high" or "you don't take enough damage" or "your AC is too high" or "your to-hit is too high" or "your damage is too high," ask him for numbers he thinks would be more in line with what he expects, and ask if you can simply cap your existing values there as an arbitrary thing. It would be the most straight-forward way to handle it.

[Sir Chuckles]

If all else fails, I'd role play the "Faithful Guardian" style of Fighter, slap on as much metal onto myself as possible, and replace all my feats with Toughness. The only way to drop from there is to switch them all for Skill Focus (Above Water Basket Weaving).

But figuring out exactly why he believes you to be OP is important to ..."fixing"... your character. The second most important thing to do is to write a campaign journal so we can watch the game.

[The Insanity]

There's also the possibility that the DM simply doesn't like Talakeal for some reason and just passive-agressively tries to discurage him from playing/enjoying himself by using his character as an excuse.
I'm not sure which would be better for the OP though - his DM being that stupid and wrong or just a huge jerk. :smallconfused:

[Greenish]

There's also the possibility that the DM simply doesn't like Talakeal for some reason and just passive-agressively tries to discurage him from playing/enjoying himself by using his character as an excuse.
I'm not sure which would be better for the OP though - his DM being that stupid and wrong or just a huge jerk. :smallconfused:Well, according to Talakeal, he's doing 90% of the group's damage, and feeling like a big damn hero most of the time, so the disparity between him and the rest of the group isn't just in the DM's head.

Add to that that the group (including, mostly, Talakeal) are having fun, and the DM asked him to tone it down instead of more heavy-handed methods, I'm inclined to grant the DM the benefit of doubt.

Also, Hanlon's Razor.

[Blackhawk748]

Im just gonna recommend ditching Power Attack, as that will drop your damage output and possibly solve the issue.............. possibly.

[The Insanity]

If the DM will allow restating, I'd second (or third) taking Improved Trip or feats like that and going for battlefield control.

[Andezzar]

If the DM will allow restating, I'd second (or third) taking Improved Trip or feats like that and going for battlefield control.Yes, shutting down multiple opponents on your turn and outside it is much less powerful than killing one or two on your turn.

[The Insanity]

Yes, shutting down multiple opponents on your turn and outside it is much less powerful than killing one or two on your turn.
If by outside you mean through AoOs, then it won't because this DM handles AoOs with DM fiat, as in "you'll get an AoO when I say you get an AoO".

[eggynack]

Yes, shutting down multiple opponents on your turn and outside it is much less powerful than killing one or two on your turn.
Except this was never a question of how powerful the thing actually is, and always a question of how powerful the DM thinks it is. The DM thinks damage is powerful, even mediocre damage, so going another angle could be a good idea. Also, the DM's weird AoO deal means that he's not going to really get to trip folks off turn.

[OldTrees1]

I would like to point out that we are making a lot of unhelpful assumptions about the situation. Instead, we should recognize we are confused. Thus we should be asking questions of the OP and the OP should be asking the DM questions.


Step 1: Find out what the DM is concerned about and why.
Step 2: Evaluate if this is a rational concern.
Step 3: Address the concern, either by character modification or by educating the DM.

[eggynack]

I would like to point out that we are making a lot of unhelpful assumptions about the situation. Instead, we should recognize we are confused. Thus we should be asking questions of the OP and the OP should be asking the DM questions.


Step 1: Find out what the DM is concerned about and why.
Step 2: Evaluate if this is a rational concern.
Step 3: Address the concern, either by character modification or by educating the DM.
The problem with asking a bunch of questions is that I don't think there are any answers. The OP asked, and the DM wants our noble fighter to stop meta-gaming/powergaming. Not much to go on, in other words, and it doesn't seem like much information is forthcoming given that the question seems to be asked and answered. I'm not even really making assumptions at this point, at least not in the bad sense. It's more like I'm just throwing things against the wall on the basis of a number of different possible assumptions, and seeing if any of it makes sense in the context of this game. To put it simply, this is a crazy situation.

[OldTrees1]

The problem with asking a bunch of questions is that I don't think there are any answers. The OP asked, and the DM wants our noble fighter to stop meta-gaming/powergaming. Not much to go on, in other words, and it doesn't seem like much information is forthcoming given that the question seems to be asked and answered. I'm not even really making assumptions at this point, at least not in the bad sense. It's more like I'm just throwing things against the wall on the basis of a number of different possible assumptions, and seeing if any of it makes sense in the context of this game. To put it simply, this is a crazy situation.

Not much to go on yet. There is insufficiently clear PC-DM communication. What suggestions/questions can we give to bridge this gap?

Consider
my DM told me that I need to tone down my character because it has gotten to the point where anything that can challenge me is going to absolutely massacre the rest of the party.
This implies either the DM is in this situation OR the DM mistakenly thinks they are in this situation. We can get information to identify if/how the rest of the party is even less powerful.

The OP suspects it is the damage focus. But this would be good to double check. Does the DM feel the enemies are dropping too fast? Does the Fighter do significantly more than its share of the damage dealt(as defined by Ftr damage/Total damage)?

[Sith_Happens]

I deal 90% of the groups damage

Unless I suddenly forgot how to do arithmetic, your primary "Attacks" box says "Masterwork Greatsword +9, 2d6+6 19-20/x2." Power Attack changes the underlined to "+7, 2d6+12."

You're in a party of six.

DO ANY OF THE OTHER FIVE CHARACTERS EVEN ATTACK?:smalleek:


I have asked. He wants us to start roleplaying and stop meta-gaming / power gaming. Not sure exactly what this means.

It means he's only pretending to have any idea what he's doing.

[Yahzi]

Trade the greatsword in for a one-handed weapon. Get a Tower shield (-2 to hit for +4 AC). Take Combat Experitise and take -5 every round (for +5 AC). Also fight defensively every round (-4 for +2 AC). That gives you a +11 AC and a -11 to hit. Your damage output will drop way, way off; on the other hand, if your DM is throwing HP dmg at you, you're gonna have a lot of fun laughing.

In your head, play your character like the same heroic fighter he's always been, but now he is a realistic fighter, as in his primary goal in every single round is to not die. If it helps, pretend he has 1d4 hit points ALL THE TIME. You know, like real people.

[Jormengand]

do any of the other five characters even attack?:smalleek:

Do you even attack bro?

[Talakeal]

Ok, so I talked to my DM. He say's the problem is that all of my feats have "passive" effects and he wants me to start taking feats that give "1 use per day" abilities instead as I am too reliable. Apparently weapon specialization was the straw that broke the camels back.


Also, I can't look at the other players character sheets to see their builds, but they don't seem very optimized.

The druid is pure heal-bot. The cleric is an archer / blaster apparently, which seems terrible in game and I can't tell what he is going for. The magus just about his spells 99% of the time. The monk forgets to declare flurry 90% of the time, and the DM does not let you take actions if you don't specifically declare them first.

We had a rogue. Almost everything we fought was immune to sneak attack, the DM doesn't play with flanking afaik, and if you don't first ask permission and then declare a sneak attack you can't use it even if you do meet the requirements.

[georgie_leech]

So... He wants you to play a Barbarian instead? :smallconfused:

[eggynack]

Well, that clarifies things a bit, I guess. In that case, I don't think you have a choice but to switch classes. Unless things changed a lot in the shift from 3.5 to pathfinder, fighters are fundamentally made up of passive abilities, or otherwise at-will abilities. You probably want a caster of some kind, although barbarians are a bit uses/day. I guess you could also swap feats to the DM's proposed uses/day setup, but I have no idea how viable or even workable that is.

[Extra Anchovies]

Ok, so I talked to my DM. He say's the problem is that all of my feats have "passive" effects and he wants me to start taking feats that give "1 use per day" abilities instead as I am too reliable. Apparently weapon specialization was the straw that broke the camels back.

What? What? There aren't really any feats that give uses/day abilities; off the top of my head I'm only coming up with Luck feats and those stupid Exalted feats that give you +1 to a roll 1/day. I guess you're best with switching to unlimited-use non-continuous stuff, like Improved Trip (if you can rearrange your ability scores, that is).

Also, I can't look at the other players character sheets to see their builds, but they don't seem very optimized.

The druid is pure heal-bot. The cleric is an archer / blaster apparently, which seems terrible in game and I can't tell what he is going for. The magus just about his spells 99% of the time. The monk forgets to declare flurry 90% of the time, and the DM does not let you take actions if you don't specifically declare them first.
Archer cleric is actually really effective, give him a few levels. Healbot druid is... dumb. There are better healers than a druid, and there are much better uses for a druid's spell slots than healing. Also, requiring someone to declare what they're doing each time they do it, even if it's something they plan to do every round, is just annoying.

We had a rogue. Almost everything we fought was immune to sneak attack, the DM doesn't play with flanking afaik, and if you don't first ask permission and then declare a sneak attack you can't use it even if you do meet the requirements.
You have a bad DM.

[Threadnaught]

Here's what we do, get a load of index cards and label them "Attack with Greatsword", "Full Attack with Greatsword", "Attack with Crossbow", "Full Attack with Crossbow", "Trip", "Grapple", "Charge", "Power Attack", "Bullrush" and "Attack of Opportunity".

You have one of each of these cards, these are your special daily Fighter powers. You may use each one, once per day.



This seems a little more like what your DM wants.

[torrasque666]

Is Tome of Battle off the table? Because respeccing as a Warblade would give you a lot more "active" abilities and if the DM REALLY has a problem with the refreshing of maneuvers, just use maneuvers only once per day, or treat them like spell slots.

[Telonius]

Mark this day in history: a DM has asked the Fighter to be toned down for being OP, and the solution is a Tome of Battle class. :smallbiggrin:

But yes, that's about what he's asking for: "a limited number of per-encounter abilities that works with martial classes" describes Tome of Battle really well.

[The Glyphstone]

Is Tome of Battle off the table? Because respeccing as a Warblade would give you a lot more "active" abilities and if the DM REALLY has a problem with the refreshing of maneuvers, just use maneuvers only once per day, or treat them like spell slots.

This is a DM that thinks WEAPON SPECIALIZATION is overpowered. What do you think the reaction to Tome of Battle would be?

[aethel27]

no no he would love it since it has x/day abilities he thinks passive abilities are op....like a dwarf's bonus against goblins and dodge vs giants ....... or a paladins immunity to fear and anti fear radius



on the other hand I probably wouldnt have teh patience to play in that game..... so oh well do what you think is best op and have fun :)

[Hyena]

This is a DM that thinks WEAPON SPECIALIZATION is overpowered. What do you think the reaction to Tome of Battle would be?
I swear, one day I will actually go and post that DM horror story. Long story short, I've had a DM who thinks that every class is equal in power if properly played. He also thought that every book outside of core is heretic third party bull****. He got a party of swordsage, psion, DMM cleric and properly played sorcerer. It was horrible. But even that DM wouldn't deem OP's build, well, OP.
I hope.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You have a bad DM.

Can't be repeated enough times.

OP, if you insist on staying in this DM's game, you should drop Fighter for a caster class. Martials are already weaker, functioning "all day" is about all they have going for them (not even, really), and that's what sets him over the edge. Your effort to make fighter palatable to him without it being utterly horrible and un-fun for you is a fruitless endeavor.

Perhaps make something humorous. Humor can sometimes shield you from control freak DMs by masking your effectiveness. Maybe make a Summoner where the eidolon is a pro wrestler doing those sorts of moves and your character is his valet/manager, who mostly just shouts advice to him and occasionally slips him illegal objects (spell buffs) to use behind the ref's back. You'll destroy everything, but it won't be "you" doing it, it'll be your pet so technically you're being nice and useless like the DM prefers. Plus, if you roleplay it well, he'll find it hilarious and be more cool with it. Hell, go full on insane in character and think you're actually performing in front of thousands of fans. The more ridiculous the fluff is, the more tolerable the crunch will be for him.

Just a thought. Your DM operates on (idiotic) emotion, and not logic, so work with that.

[Talakeal]

Can't be repeated enough times.

OP, if you insist on staying in this DM's game, you should drop Fighter for a caster class. Martials are already weaker, functioning "all day" is about all they have going for them (not even, really), and that's what sets him over the edge. Your effort to make fighter palatable to him without it being utterly horrible and un-fun for you is a fruitless endeavor.

Perhaps make something humorous. Humor can sometimes shield you from control freak DMs by masking your effectiveness. Maybe make a Summoner where the eidolon is a pro wrestler doing those sorts of moves and your character is his valet/manager, who mostly just shouts advice to him and occasionally slips him illegal objects (spell buffs) to use behind the ref's back. You'll destroy everything, but it won't be "you" doing it, it'll be your pet so technically you're being nice and useless like the DM prefers. Plus, if you roleplay it well, he'll find it hilarious and be more cool with it. Hell, go full on insane in character and think you're actually performing in front of thousands of fans. The more ridiculous the fluff is, the more tolerable the crunch will be for him.

Just a thought. Your DM operates on (idiotic) emotion, and not logic, so work with that.

I don't think that would work in game, but it did make me literally LOL.


I have yet to see a thread so filled with condescension. It's both saddening and nauseating.

Here's the thing, that was actually not my intent in posting it. I was mostly just trying to illustrate that my experience on the forums for the last decade has in no way prepared me for a real game, and that all the TO, PO, and tier lists don't always look so clear in the real world.

This is also not the first time this has happened. I remember back in high school I played an AD&D straight fighter and was so much more powerful than the rest of the group that the DM more or less gave up and told me to retire the character and play a mage so he could challenge me without wiping out the rest of the party.

[Irk]

Here's the thing, that was actually not my intent in posting it.
They meant everyone else, I think.

[137beth]

The DM doesn't use AoOs. Except when he does.
....huh?

Can't be repeated enough times.

OP, if you insist on staying in this DM's game, you should drop Fighter for a caster class. Martials are already weaker, functioning "all day" is about all they have going for them (not even, really), and that's what sets him over the edge. Your effort to make fighter palatable to him without it being utterly horrible and un-fun for you is a fruitless endeavor.

Perhaps make something humorous. Humor can sometimes shield you from control freak DMs by masking your effectiveness. Maybe make a Summoner where the eidolon is a pro wrestler doing those sorts of moves and your character is his valet/manager, who mostly just shouts advice to him and occasionally slips him illegal objects (spell buffs) to use behind the ref's back. You'll destroy everything, but it won't be "you" doing it, it'll be your pet so technically you're being nice and useless like the DM prefers. Plus, if you roleplay it well, he'll find it hilarious and be more cool with it. Hell, go full on insane in character and think you're actually performing in front of thousands of fans. The more ridiculous the fluff is, the more tolerable the crunch will be for him.

Just a thought. Your DM operates on (idiotic) emotion, and not logic, so work with that.
Summoners are overpowered because the eidelon can full attack all day.

[Extra Anchovies]

Mark this day in history: a DM has asked the Fighter to be toned down for being OP, and the solution is a Tome of Battle class. :smallbiggrin:

Thank you for this, I needed the laugh. This will go in my signature now, if you don't mind :smallbiggrin:


This is a DM that thinks WEAPON SPECIALIZATION is overpowered. What do you think the reaction to Tome of Battle would be?

Well, as long as Talakeal sticks to the non-damaging abilities (e.g. Wall of Blades, not Bonecrusher), he'd remain effective without being too overtly powerful.

As an aside:

I don't think that would work in game, but it did make me literally LOL.

Me too. Thank you, StreamOfTheSky, I now know how I'm fluffing a Summoner if I ever play one. (I'll probably make my character African and name the eidolon Little Mac)

[137beth]

Wait, I just realized:
in pathfinder, wizards are overpowered by this DM's standards, because cantrips are at will! Even worse, a couple cantrips do damage!

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Wait, I just realized:
in pathfinder, wizards are overpowered by this DM's standards, because cantrips are at will! Even worse, a couple cantrips do damage!

Well, this DM has already banned wizards from using direct damage spells because they are too strong.

[Talakeal]

Well, this DM has already banned wizards from using direct damage spells because they are too strong.

To be totally fair and honest, I don't know what his ban list is for this game. He doesn't like to state his house rules up front, instead making rulings on the fly.

He has told me that he has banned bards and blaster wizards (and several other things) in the past, but I can't be certain if those rules are in effect until I try.


Also, as to the limited use feats, he suggested a whole bunch of feats from PF splat books that I have never heard of that let you use other classes abilities either once per day or one minute per day, and also suggested instead of focusing on melee I branch out and start taking feats to improve my crossbow. (I don't even want the dang crossbow, but it was the only ranged weapon that we have found yet).

[torrasque666]

To be totally fair and honest, I don't know what his ban list is for this game. He doesn't like to state his house rules up front, instead making rulings on the fly.

He has told me that he has banned bards and blaster wizards (and several other things) in the past, but I can't be certain if those rules are in effect until I try.


Also, as to the limited use feats, he suggested a whole bunch of feats from PF splat books that I have never heard of that let you use other classes abilities either once per day or one minute per day, and also suggested instead of focusing on melee I branch out and start taking feats to improve my crossbow. (I don't even want the dang crossbow, but it was the only ranged weapon that we have found yet).

Are you sure that your DM doesn't frequent this forum? Sounds like one of our more notorious members.

And as to "use other classes abilities once per day" the only one I can think of is the Eldritch Bloodline set. And I'm beginning to be heavily convinced that he doesn't want anyone being effective, as Ranged Combat is only slightly above Sword-And-Board with how easily its negated.

[Talakeal]

Are you sure that your DM doesn't frequent this forum? Sounds like one of our more notorious members.

And as to "use other classes abilities once per day" the only one I can think of is the Eldritch Bloodline set. And I'm beginning to be heavily convinced that he doesn't want anyone being effective, as Ranged Combat is only slightly above Sword-And-Board with how easily its negated.

If he does I haven't seen any evidence of it, but it is possible.

Some of the ones he mentioned were a barroom brawler feat that can replicate any other feat once per day, a gunslinger feat that lets another class use one point of grit a day, and a swashbuckler feat that lets other classes use one point of dash a day iirc.

[Blackhawk748]

Are you sure that your DM doesn't frequent this forum? Sounds like one of our more notorious members.

Ya, im starting to be concerned for the OPs San score.........

And Op Weapon Spec.................. never thought i would hear those words.

[OldTrees1]

Ok, so I talked to my DM. He say's the problem is that all of my feats have "passive" effects and he wants me to start taking feats that give "1 use per day" abilities instead as I am too reliable. Apparently weapon specialization was the straw that broke the camels back.


Also, I can't look at the other players character sheets to see their builds, but they don't seem very optimized.


Huh. I recommend talking to your DM again, it appears like you only use the PHB and none of the Fighter feats is x/day. Deflect Arrows and Combat Reflexes are x/round. Work with the DM to find what feats he is expecting. This may require you both to move to other books to find the feats he wants. Alternatively this might reveal the DM's real concern.

[chihawk]

Ok, so I talked to my DM. He say's the problem is that all of my feats have "passive" effects and he wants me to start taking feats that give "1 use per day" abilities instead as I am too reliable. Apparently weapon specialization was the straw that broke the camels back.


Also, I can't look at the other players character sheets to see their builds, but they don't seem very optimized.

The druid is pure heal-bot. The cleric is an archer / blaster apparently, which seems terrible in game and I can't tell what he is going for. The magus just about his spells 99% of the time. The monk forgets to declare flurry 90% of the time, and the DM does not let you take actions if you don't specifically declare them first.

We had a rogue. Almost everything we fought was immune to sneak attack, the DM doesn't play with flanking afaik, and if you don't first ask permission and then declare a sneak attack you can't use it even if you do meet the requirements.

I'm just a lurker here and don't reply often, but I'm compelled to say something here. Your GM doesn't seem to understand the game nor its mechanics. If you wish to keep playing with him your choices are to help him understand these things (although it sounds like he thinks he has a good grasp of the rules and mechanics) or play as he wants the game played. I'm getting the vibe that no matter the advice you're given here your GM will counter it in such a way to eventually ruin any character concept you have.

[Andezzar]

Are you sure that your DM doesn't frequent this forum? Sounds like one of our more notorious members.You took the words out of my mouth. What's said about the DM has some uncanny resemblance to jedipotter.

I totally agree with chihawk's post.

[Stella]

I... I don't even. Not only it's the bard not capable of doubt everything (no trapfinding, limited spells and proficiencies), but inspire courage and the rest of the bard songs are amazing force multipliers! They work better with people, not without!

Ah, but that's the whole issue here! This party is six people strong. SIX! That's a full 50% power bonus over the expected four person party for all of the Bard's group effects, and it makes the Bard so OP it's ridiculous. Well, something is ridiculous, at least. :)


To be fair, it's easy to get stuck in a frame of mind.

[...] our DM makes this face like he can't believe what he's seeing or how he allowed that. [...]

He's just been conditioned into expecting a certain thing from a melee class, and when I deviate from the norm he's so used to he bucks like a mule;

Like my outrageously OP Fighter/Barbarian L4 tripper build. At low levels tripping can be effective, so when I was tripping multiple (M sized) things per round using my Spiked Chain, combat reflexes, Improved Tripping, Power Attack and getting that bonus attack plus another attack if they tried to stand up, he was just about frantic. It's funny how he didn't mind that I had a pile of feats that were essentially useless when he set us against some M sized automatons (stone), or spiders (all those legs!), and many other kinds of foes.

But the foes were primarily humanoids, so I got to do a lot of tripping, and that's so unlike Yea Olde Classical Power Attack Greatsword for strictly better damage (at least per hit, I may have done more overall with the free attacks and the advantage I gave the rest of the party) that his poor little mind just had problems accepting that I was doing something that was unlike the norm he was used to seeing.

But that doesn't seem to be the same issue with the OP OP's DM, since Yea Olde Classical Wizard is all about the evocation and he has banned this for some silly reason.

[Zaq]

Have you considered GMing? Sometimes the only way to reach people is to lead by example. You don't even have to say "I'm usurping your title" or anything that comes across like that. Say "hey, I've got an idea kicking around in my head for a short little campaign, maybe two or three sessions long, and I'd like to try my hand at GMing—what do you say if I take over and run something next month, and then we go back to your game?" Then show him that it's totally possible to run a game without running screaming away from anything that has a number associated with it. Don't necessarily rub his face in it or anything, but just lead by example. You never know, he might learn something.

[jiriku]

Your best bet probably to volunteer to DM the next campaign. If your DM has no optimization chops, then there's a ceiling on how much you'll be able to enjoy the mechanical aspects of the game as a player. You can have quite a bit of fun on the other side of the screen though, and it will give you the chance to play the game in a way that's more satisfying for you.

[EisenKreutzer]

Honestly, I think it's best if you just let him rebuild your character the way he wants it to be, and try and make due with what you have. It's either that or just straight up leave.

[Theomniadept]

Fighters are OP, Warblades are a solution to this, Wizards are banned because blastercasting is too OP; now I don't recall dropping acid this morning but that might be the acid talking.

[Extra Anchovies]

Fighters are OP, Warblades are a solution to this, Wizards are banned because blastercasting is too OP; now I don't recall dropping acid this morning but that might be the acid talking.

That is the acid talking. It's the most broken energy type by far, so few things are resistant to it. Even more OP than fire damage :smalltongue:

[Arbane]

Ok, so I talked to my DM. He say's the problem is that all of my feats have "passive" effects and he wants me to start taking feats that give "1 use per day" abilities instead as I am too reliable. Apparently weapon specialization was the straw that broke the camels back.


:smalleek:
1/day abilities? Do fighters even GET any of those?

Only thing I can suggest now is conspiracy. Meet up with the other players outside of game, give them some advice. (What the GM doesn't know WILL hurt him in this case, if you do it right.)

If you're using PF mainly, the equivalent of the Tome of Battle is the third-party Path of War. The Warlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord) is made for fighty types with high strength and charisma, like your character.

And, as has been mentioned, your GM is terrible.

[Psyren]

Honestly, I think it's best if you just let him rebuild your character the way he wants it to be, and try and make due with what you have. It's either that or just straight up leave.

Again OP, assuming you're interested in actual solutions to the problem, I suggest an approach like this one.

[Sith_Happens]

So... He wants you to play a Barbarian instead? :smallconfused:

Idea: Roll a Barbarian, spend all your feats on whatever the Pathfinder equivalent of Extra Rage is.

"I don't see what the problem is, my abilities are totally limited per day. The limit is just high."


Have you considered GMing?


Your best bet probably to volunteer to DM the next campaign.

You obviously haven't read very many of Talakeal's older threads.

[Psyren]

Idea: Roll a Barbarian, spend all your feats on whatever the Pathfinder equivalent of Extra Rage is.

"I don't see what the problem is, my abilities are totally limited per day. The limit is just high."

Rage is measured in rounds in Pathfinder, but the feat gives you 6 extra rounds (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/extra-rage---final) each time you take it, so functionally it works out to another combat. Less than the 3.5 version but also more granular if the full duration is not needed.

[KingSmitty]

Just replace weapon spec with cleave and you'd be dangerously OP:smallconfused:

Or you can just tell him his puny monsters are no match for your might

too reliable? sounds like he just wants you to die.

[Stella]

Just replace weapon spec with cleave and you'd be dangerously OP:smallconfused:

Ah, but it seems as though this DM would just go the same route he did with AOO: "You can cleave when I tell you you can cleave!"

After reading the most recent posts of the OP OP, I've come to the conclusion that running away as fast as possible is the only real solution. Both in game and out of game. But if the OP doesn't want to do it out of game, then playing the cowardly fighter who doesn't fight might be his only option.

[Greenish]

Ah, but it seems as though this DM would just go the same route he did with AOO: "You can cleave when I tell you you can cleave!"
PF Cleave works differently. As a standard action, you get to hit two adjacent targets, no need to drop anyone.


I guess he could add a 1/day limit to using it, though.

[KingSmitty]

i still fail to see how +2 damage is OP....how much damage on average does the rest of the party deal? I can't see how you'd be doing much more than a wizard if there is one. Hell by that logic a rogue played the way it should be is game-breaking when he uses sneak attack

just keep the character the way it is, and just don't add your bonus every so often until you start getting shown up and then bitch at the GM for being a douche and making you "tone it down"


as for meta reasons and not being able to describe your characters to each other thats just silly, in our group we discuss our builds a lot and give each other ideas for our build concepts, but we're mature enough to keep that OOC and roleplay our characters as they should be played, because our DM is not a child and trusts us to also not be children.

Though maybe that's because we must be playing a high power campaign, because all of our fighters are using weapon focus. :smallwink:

[darksolitaire]

i still fail to see how +2 damage is OP....how much damage on average does the rest of the party deal? I can't see how you'd be doing much more than a wizard if there is one. Hell by that logic a rogue played the way it should be is game-breaking when he uses sneak attack

+2 damage may not sound much...but it's +2 damage per attack. Let's say that average encounter lasts 6 turns, so that's +12 damage in each encounter, assuming fighter hits consistently. If he then proceeds to have 4 additional encounters per day, that can go up to 60 additional damage per day. He can do this any day, any time. 60 extra damage as 4th level character? At this point, we're closing to dangerous levels of cheese.[/sarcasm]

Also note that their Rogue can't sneak attack because they don't use flanking.

[KingSmitty]

+2 damage may not sound much...but it's +2 damage per attack. Let's say that average encounter lasts 6 turns, so that's +12 damage in each encounter, assuming fighter hits consistently. If he then proceeds to have 4 additional encounters per day, that can go up to 60 additional damage per day. He can do this any day, any time. 60 extra damage as 4th level character? At this point, we're closing to dangerous levels of cheese.[/sarcasm]

Also note that their Rogue can't sneak attack because they don't use flanking.

im so confused...its not april fools someone has to be messing with me. I would love to hear what he says to the druid when he turns into a rhino! or is wildshape banned too?

@OP when core feats are OP this is when you start looking for a new group, stick with it if you dont want to miss out, but he's probably never going to stop screwing you over

[Tarlek Flamehai]

It's obvious, your DM is playing the wrong game. D&D/PF is made for all the things he hates. Tell him to switch to GURPS Fantasy, 50pt build. That should be more his speed.

[Vhaidara]

im so confused...its not april fools someone has to be messing with me. I would love to hear what he says to the druid when he turns into a rhino! or is wildshape banned too?

The druid doesn't have wildshape yet (level 4). And is playing a healbot. As a druid.

[KingSmitty]

The druid doesn't have wildshape yet (level 4). And is playing a healbot. As a druid.

so basically it's his fault his party is so weak, that core feats are OP. What happens next level when the druid gets wildshape and the casters have access to fireball and lightning bolt? He says it happens all the time to him when he plays maybe he just doesnt like the guy?


It's obvious, your DM is playing the wrong game. D&D/PF is made for all the things he hates. Tell him to switch to GURPS Fantasy, 50pt build. That should be more his speed.

or maybe have the campaign setting from something out of my little pony.

[Andezzar]

im so confused...its not april fools someone has to be messing with me. I would love to hear what he says to the druid when he turns into a rhino! or is wildshape banned too?Weapon Specialization is definitely not OP, but it is the DM's impression that it is OP, for whatever reason. Talakeal said that the other players use their much more powerful classes suboptimally.

The druid does not have wildshape and uses mostly healing spells, but what about his overpowered animal companion? Has it been taken away along with AoOs and flanking?

50pt GURPs? Is that even playable?

[KingSmitty]

Weapon Specialization is definitely not OP, but it is the DM's impression that it is OP, for whatever reason. Talakeal said that the other players use their much more powerful classes suboptimally.

The druid does not have wildshape and uses mostly healing spells, but what about his overpowered animal companion? Has it been taken away along with AoOs and flanking?

50pt GURPs? Is that even playable?

i mustve missed all of that about no AoO's....so, its like playing a video game. I attack, you attack, I attack, you attack. Sounds like really stale combat

[Tarlek Flamehai]

50pt GURPs? Is that even playable?

Sure, you either roleplay your way around combat or else you die....a whoe lot.

[Vhaidara]

i mustve missed all of that about no AoO's....so, its like playing a video game. I attack, you attack, I attack, you attack. Sounds like really stale combat

It was from another thread. And they aren't gone, they're just reliant on fiat. "AoO occur when I say they do, regardless of actual rules for them!"

[Spore]

Yet another DM that equals damage per round = power. Only that even this isn't true either since there's a Magus...

But yeah, 1-5 is the best level for fighters.

[Andezzar]

Sure, you either roleplay your way around combat or else you die....a whoe lot.Don't you lack the skills to identify threats and avoid combat at that point total?

[Shining Wrath]

How can you use Tower Shield and a Greatsword at the same time?

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Don't you lack the skills to identify threats and avoid combat at that point total?

At that point total, everything is a threat. And everyone has Fast-talk and Running skills. :smallwink:

[KingSmitty]

How can you use Tower Shield and a Greatsword at the same time?

You would have to switch between the two

[EisenKreutzer]

I'd love to see the GM come here and explain his houserules and approach. That would really be interesting.

[Talakeal]

How can you use Tower Shield and a Greatsword at the same time?

I dont. I use the tower shield against ranged attacks or for cover when I cant get into a position to fight.

[Andezzar]

I dont. I use the tower shield against ranged attacks or for cover when I cant get into a position to fight.Wow this will lose you one round worth of attacks. One move action to remove the shield and one movement to ready the greatsword

[Talakeal]

Wow this will lose you one round worth of attacks. One move action to remove the shield and one movement to ready the greatsword

True, but its better than nothing if you are being fired at by an archer who is 100 yards away or strafed by the breath weapon of a flying dragon.

[thematgreen]

I made a standard Oradin and was told to tone it down because I was outshining the rest of the group since, to threaten my character, the DM would kill the rest of the group.

It wasn't that I was overpowered, it was that the rest of the players weren't strong at all.

- Dwarf Barbarian - Refused to rage, refused to use her dwarven waraxe and instead used a ranseur that she used all the time for no reason. Didn't really listen to reason. New Player

- Gnome Bard - Would sing, didn't do anything else. Never cast spells, would fire a bow but was given a tiny sized bow for some insane reason. New Player

- Human Rogue - was doing homework, would roll, say she missed, go back to homework. Understood mechanics better, would flank, but didn't really care about combat.

Based on that, a correctly built character played by a person who was paying attention would be overpowered.

We are restarting the game with new characterrs now that the two new players are a little more familiar, and this time I am helping with the builds. Hopefully that will cure the overpowered issue.


Anyway, maybe take a look at the rest of the group and see what they have going on and if it is just basic rookie mistakes with character building. If it is then the "overpowered" thing is solved, if it is just how they are playing then take the leadership role and help them in combat. Talking is a free action.

Just some things to consider.

[Andezzar]

True, but its better than nothing if you are being fired at by an archer who is 100 yards away or strafed by the breath weapon of a flying dragon.The archer is at -6 for such shots already. Do you regularly run 100+ yards through open spaces to get to the opponents? Maybe you should change your tactics.

I'm not sure if the breath weapon is a burst or a spread. If it's the latter, the total cover would not help.

[Psyren]

If you have Quick Draw, couldn't you drop the Tower Shield as a free action and draw the greatsword as another free action? You could even do both during your charge, potentially.

[nedz]

It might be a little passive-aggressive, but you could switch tactics to just hiding behind your Tower shield and blocking. Maybe try it for one combat and see what the reaction is ? At best it will force the other players to act, at worst they will all die — more likely somewhat in between.

[Talakeal]

If you have Quick Draw, couldn't you drop the Tower Shield as a free action and draw the greatsword as another free action? You could even do both during your charge, potentially.

No, dropping a shield is a move action. I could do it if the enemy came to me, but not if I had to go to them, and it is hardly worth a feat.

The shield is more of an emergency measure I can pull out if I get into a tactically terrible spot than a standard fighting style for me.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Drop Weapon Spec

Pick up Total Defense Expert (+6 to AC for 1 round) so long as you are using the Total Defense option.

Gear your guy toward utter defense (But keep the greatsword and stats so when you hit, it works.)

Next time combat breaks out, declare you are fighting Total Defense

Total Defense

You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can't combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat. You can't make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.

Now when he has all the baddies attack the guy in banded mail just let them try (This low powered of a party cannot be facing many powerful foes) take a shot every other turn. Do this for about two or three battles.

This will likely show the other players that you are kind of being targetted unfairly and well forcing them to blow through their spells and such far to fast. After all if you are not beating down the foes they had too.. The poor Magus and Cleric will run out of spells faster then you run out of sword swings and what exactly happens if they run out of spells during your total defense shut down. Then ask the DM if this is good, because you nerfed your damage output and are totally in character playing turtle

[The Glyphstone]

This is good, but it'll only work for one fight, maybe not even a full fight. From the other thread, the DM bans players doing their own math, so he can say the OP's AC was added up wrong, the attacks actually hit, and it's against the rules to disagree.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

This is good, but it'll only work for one fight, maybe not even a full fight. From the other thread, the DM bans players doing their own math, so he can say the OP's AC was added up wrong, the attacks actually hit, and it's against the rules to disagree.

That is what a hardback copy of the rules book is for.

And its idiot proof to do AC. Disagreeing is saying no he is wrong. You can simply tell him 10+1 (Dex)+8 (+1 Banded Mail)+6 = 25, not that ungodly of a high AC.

[aleucard]

Honestly, by this point, you'd be equally as well off to just throat-punch the prick and tell him to quit being the kind of DM that gives TTG a bad name. If the other players have no knowledge of how to play, the proper solution is NOT to throw them in the deep end and start screeching at the guy who knows how to swim already. Direct the players towards the various handbooks for their characters, and request for the ability to respec overnight after they read up. The only ways you're going to get any enjoyment out of this mess is to either do the previously described actions, bend over and let him respec your character in a way he thinks isn't overpowered (though there's not that much he can do to lower it, it would at least drive THAT much home to him), or cry sod-all to the whole business and find a more sane DM.

[Talakeal]

Drop Weapon Spec

Pick up Total Defense Expert (+6 to AC for 1 round) so long as you are using the Total Defense option.

Gear your guy toward utter defense (But keep the greatsword and stats so when you hit, it works.)

Next time combat breaks out, declare you are fighting Total Defense

Total Defense

You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can't combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat. You can't make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.

Now when he has all the baddies attack the guy in banded mail just let them try (This low powered of a party cannot be facing many powerful foes) take a shot every other turn. Do this for about two or three battles.

This will likely show the other players that you are kind of being targetted unfairly and well forcing them to blow through their spells and such far to fast. After all if you are not beating down the foes they had too.. The poor Magus and Cleric will run out of spells faster then you run out of sword swings and what exactly happens if they run out of spells during your total defense shut down. Then ask the DM if this is good, because you nerfed your damage output and are totally in character playing turtle


The DM considers it metagaming to focus fire. His enemies randomly attack a different character every round. So they won't attack me more than 1/6 of the time. Not sure why they would attack someone doing full defensive in the first place though.

God, now I feel like this is just turning into a bash my DM thread...

[The Glyphstone]

That is what a hardback copy of the rules book is for.

And its idiot proof to do AC. Disagreeing is saying no he is wrong. You can simply tell him 10+1 (Dex)+8 (+1 Banded Mail)+6 = 25, not that ungodly of a high AC.

Go to the first post of this thread:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?373995-Are-all-DM-s-control-freaks

Come back and share what sort of relationship you think this DM has with things that are 'idiot proof', or concepts like 'basic logic'. Make sure to note that AoOs and flanking are also part of hardback rule books, and they're also banned.





God, now I feel like this is just turning into a bash my DM thread...

Your DM deserves it, by what you've told us.

[eggynack]

God, now I feel like this is just turning into a bash my DM thread...
Didn't it kinda sorta start out that way? If not, it definitely turned into that pretty quickly.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

The DM considers it metagaming to focus fire. His enemies randomly attack a different character every round. So they won't attack me more than 1/6 of the time. Not sure why they would attack someone doing full defensive in the first place though.

God, now I feel like this is just turning into a bash my DM thread...

No bashing meant, my idea is simply to show that you are the only one doing damage so of course you are doing damage more then them.
Going defensive is a good way to show that to him.

As for why opponents would attack a defensive foe, well you are the guy wearing heavy armor and carrying a big sword are you not?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The DM considers it metagaming to focus fire. His enemies randomly attack a different character every round. So they won't attack me more than 1/6 of the time. Not sure why they would attack someone doing full defensive in the first place though.

God, now I feel like this is just turning into a bash my DM thread...

That doesn't even make sense! If one dude is slaughtering your group you either focus fire that dude so as to stop him or one of his weaker allies so he'll stop turning your team into meaty smoothies.


I really feel like your DM needs to take logic 101.

[nedz]

No, dropping a shield is a move action. I could do it if the enemy came to me, but not if I had to go to them, and it is hardly worth a feat.

The shield is more of an emergency measure I can pull out if I get into a tactically terrible spot than a standard fighting style for me.
Not necessarily

Ready or Loose a Shield

Strapping a shield to your arm to gain its shield bonus to your AC, or unstrapping and dropping a shield so you can use your shield hand for another purpose, requires a move action. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you can ready or loose a shield as a free action combined with a regular move.

Dropping a carried (but not worn) shield is a free action.
But are you even using these rules ? :smallsigh:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Take Monkey Grip and use your greatsword one-handed. Then you can be Black Iron Tarkus (http://darksouls.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Iron_Tarkus), the NPC who could solo a boss, and you'd be really overpowered!

[animewatcha]

Is disrupting the game at every turn the only way to get through to this guy?

Why not play Deadpool 'the fighter'. Argue with the DM, only in character. Since Deadpool breaks the 4th wall on an addict-ive basis. Every time that the DM tries to address you by your name, keep redirecting him back to deadpool actually doing the arguing. Have the leadership feat so can have the 'daily disposable fan(s)'. Keep track of how long arguing occurs so that if he pulls 'well other people act while we argue' your legion of fan(s) can bow everything for 'every 6 seconds / turn' that passed. Deadpool trolling everyone.

[Greenish]

Take Monkey Grip and use your greatsword one-handed. Then you can be Black Iron Tarkus (http://darksouls.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Iron_Tarkus), the NPC who could solo a boss, and you'd be really overpowered!http://memedepot.com/uploads/1000/1039_morbo.jpg

[Andezzar]

Take Monkey Grip and use your greatsword one-handed. Then you can be Black Iron Tarkus (http://darksouls.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Iron_Tarkus), the NPC who could solo a boss, and you'd be really overpowered!Read monkey grip again. It does not work that way. You cannot wield an appropriately sized two-handed weapon in one hand with it. you can only wield an oversized one-handed weapon in one hand (with a -2 penalty).

[Extra Anchovies]

Take Monkey Grip and convince your half-brained DM that it lets you use your greatsword one-handed. Then you can be Black Iron Tarkus (http://darksouls.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Iron_Tarkus), the NPC who could solo a boss, and you'd be really overpowered!

Fixed that for you.

[evangaline]

You know, I may be one of the few here that is not going to yell at your DM.

The guy may perhaps not have enough expierence with DM-ing wich you can solve by leading with by example or via various different ways you might deem suitable. I would recommend to go with the 'fluffy' aproach to get some goodwill from your DM before you try anything.

-warning, based on 3.5 instead of pathfinder-

Have your character pledge his life to creation instead of destruction and make him the greatest of 'insert profession or craft name here'. Let's say that you make, I dunno, the best flutecrafter in the world or some misunderstood artist. You devote yourself to it, this means you change power attack for skill focus ('insert craft here') And you get skill mastery ('insert craft here'). Preferably you get some form of knowledge devotion to gain acces to knowledge (relevant knowledge to 'insert craft here'). You sell of your magical gear to get a magical woodcarving stick, you dont even ask about competence bonusses since that would be metagaming, and you optimise that crafting skill. Hell, you should even trade your weapon for the main tool you use for 'insert craft here'!

Most forum members know what this means: It means that you die. Horribly.

After this you should go to your Dm and say: Aww... such a shame, I dont really feel like making a new character though. Now you either run away, or you ask your Dm to step down to let you Dm, or you make a wizard to rock his world.

No matter what you do, you did not leave any loose ends.

[Vogonjeltz]

Honestly, I think it's best if you just let him rebuild your character the way he wants it to be, and try and make due with what you have. It's either that or just straight up leave.

Again OP, assuming you're interested in actual solutions to the problem, I suggest an approach like this one.

I'd be inclined to agree.

Although personally I'd also be inclined to tell any DM who questioned my choices when picked from the PHB to simply go pound sand, but then I dislike anyone trying to secondguess or micromanage me.


OP: Can you provide a narrative of the combats thus far (i.e.: Your party gets ambushed, you instagib 3/4 enemies where the others either rolled badly on attacks or didn't do anything ultimately useful)?

[torrasque666]

Read monkey grip again. It does not work that way. You cannot wield an appropriately sized two-handed weapon in one hand with it. you can only wield an oversized one-handed weapon in one hand (with a -2 penalty).

Large Longsword. Same damage and stats.

[EisenKreutzer]

The main problem here is that the GM has a weird idea of what is overpowered. It's probably because he's only played with new players before, who don't understand the system well enough to make a competent character.

Any class played right would be OP to him and banned instantly. He'd even ban monks if he saw a halfway decent player play one in his game.

[Talakeal]

The main problem here is that the GM has a weird idea of what is overpowered. It's probably because he's only played with new players before, who don't understand the system well enough to make a competent character.

Any class played right would be OP to him and banned instantly. He'd even ban monks if he saw a halfway decent player play one in his game.

Almost certainly. The first time I met him he went on a long rant aboutnhow VoP monks were the modt broken thing in all of D&D and is convinced that, along with bards, AD&D monks make all other characters obsolete.

[georgie_leech]

Almost certainly. The first time I met him he went on a long rant aboutnhow VoP monks were the modt broken thing in all of D&D and is convinced that, along with bards, AD&D monks make all other characters obsolete.

To be fair, AD&D Monks took the linear warrior, quadratic mage and applied it to a melee class. High level Monks in AD&D were in fact quite powerful. They paid for it by being all but useless at low levels.

[atemu1234]

Fixed that for you.

Exact quote:


Benefit
You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, but the amount of effort it takes you to use the weapon does not change. For instance, a Large longsword (a one-handed weapon for a Large creature) is considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature that does not have this feat. For a Medium creature that has this feat, it is still considered a one-handed weapon. You can wield a larger light weapon as a light weapon, or a larger two-handed weapon in two hands. You cannot wield a larger weapon in your off hand, and you cannot use this feat with a double weapon.

Emphasis Mine

[nedz]

To be fair, AD&D Monks took the linear warrior, quadratic mage and applied it to a melee class. High level Monks in AD&D were in fact quite powerful. They paid for it by being all but useless at low levels.

They were pretty invulnerable after about 8th, but they still did very little damage — I'm surprised this DM rates them highly :smallamused:

[georgie_leech]

Exact quote:



Emphasis Mine

While a Medium Greatsword has the same stats as a Large Longsword, they aren't the same thing. He would be unable to use his current Greatsword and would have to find a Large Longsword somewhere; while this would normally be of small concern, OP has suggested that they can't just find whatever they want and are dependent on loot drops.

[Extra Anchovies]

Exact quote:



Emphasis Mine

That was the joke. My point was that even though Hiro's interpretation was wrong, Talakeal might still be able to slip it past his DM :smalltongue:

[Juntao112]

You know, I may be one of the few here that is not going to yell at your DM.

Inexperience is no excuse for being a jerk.

[Greenish]

Inexperience is no excuse for being a jerk.I would, again, draw attention to the fact that the players are, in the most, enjoying the game, and that the DM asked OP to tone it down instead of resorting in more heavy-handed or petty methods. He doesn't come across as a jerk as much as completely clueless but trying.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, nothing here is pointing to the DM being anything other than a decent guy who happens to have a weak understanding of the game. Let's not jump to unkind conclusions about jerk-ness.

[Rater202]

or maybe have the campaign setting from something out of my little pony.

Okay. I'm going to show you two clips from the Actual MLP show. Please watch them before you judge.

One here (http://youtu.be/8jXndQvXNA4?t=12s) and here (http://youtu.be/wwZ4suij8oM?t=15s)

After watching them, think back: OP's GM thinks fighters or over powered.

MLP has things that can break boulders barehooved, and a magic duel that has reminded people of DBZ.

A campaign setting out of MLP would be worse than a normal campaign setting.

[Extra Anchovies]

Okay. I'm going to show you two clips from the Actual MLP show. Please watch them before you judge.

One here (http://youtu.be/8jXndQvXNA4?t=12s) and here (http://youtu.be/wwZ4suij8oM?t=15s)

After watching them, think back: OP's GM thinks fighters or over powered.

MLP has things that can break boulders barehooved, and a magic duel that has reminded people of DBZ.

A campaign setting out of MLP would be worse than a normal campaign setting.

Hm. That could make for an interestingly hardcore game, because it seems to be high-magic but low in magic items. If done right, that would be fun.

[Rater202]

Hm. That could make for an interestingly hardcore game, because it seems to be high-magic but low in magic items. If done right, that would be fun.

There are already about a dozen or so Fantasy RPG's in this setting made, and dozens more importing the setting inot other RPGs(There's already a conversion for D&D fifth ed, though it's using the playtests rules.) Here's a list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18033123&postcount=5)(Though avoid the FATE conversion, it's bad)

It basically is a high fantasy setting though-magic is literally everywhere(The Sun and Moon don't rise unless the Immortal Demigodess Princess move them, one third of the population manually change the weather with their inherent magic, a third's inherent magic gives them super strength and plants grow better around them, and the remaining third are all telekinetic and capable of casting at least one or two spells) but, um, this is hardly the thread to talk about it in.

[Arbane]

Another approach to trolling the GM back: Goof around. I know you said you're stuck with whatever magic items you get from loot drops, but can you buy normal weapons? If so, try different strategies "until I find one that isn't OP". Dual-wield daggers. Try a whip. Use nothing but bull rushes for an entire fight. It'll give you something to do, show the other players some of the ombat options, and keep you from actually being effective overpowered.

[emeraldstreak]

I dont get it. I mean, I can understand weak monk, healbot druid, even underplayed magus.. but how can one play a Witch thats eclipsed by a nonoptimized fighter of all things

[Sith_Happens]

Talakeal said that the other players use their much more powerful classes suboptimally.

"Suboptimally" is a massive understatement. Talakeal is dealing 2d6+12 damage per round and somehow accounting for the majority of a six-man party's total damage. The only way this is possible is that he's the only one attacking in any shape or form in the first place.


The DM considers it metagaming to focus fire. His enemies randomly attack a different character every round.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/2571423/death-the-kid-faceplosion-o.gif

[darksolitaire]

I dont get it. I mean, I can understand weak monk, healbot druid, even underplayed magus.. but how can one play a Witch thats eclipsed by a nonoptimized fighter of all things

Roll scores in order, get average physical stats and bad mental stats and don't cast spells. Effectively Rincewind from Discworld.

[Spore]

Consider switching your group. This can't be fun for you or the others...

[Edenbeast]

How can you have the Dodge feat with 12 Dex?

[Andezzar]

I would, again, draw attention to the fact that the players are, in the most, enjoying the game, and that the DM asked OP to tone it down instead of resorting in more heavy-handed or petty methods. He doesn't come across as a jerk as much as completely clueless but trying.


Yeah, nothing here is pointing to the DM being anything other than a decent guy who happens to have a weak understanding of the game. Let's not jump to unkind conclusions about jerk-ness.I would not say that the DM is a jerk, but he does seem resistant to advice, and that is nearly as bad.

[OldTrees1]

I would not say that the DM is a jerk, but he does seem resistant to advice, and that is nearly as bad.

Not even close.
1) Review this thread and you will see the forum has been treating the DM as if the DM were a waste of space.
2) Most people are resistant to advice when their mound of skewed data appears contrary to that advise. (Remember the other players have been playing very suboptimally, thus the standard for "balance" for this group is "suboptimal") Yet this DM is willing to have a reasoned conversation with the OP.

In conclusion, the DM is better than your summary and this thread has treated him worse than your summary.

The solution to PC - DM communication problems and to uninformed DM problems is not to write off the DM as a jerk. Rather the answer is to improve the communication targeting the specific issue. When all the information is on the table, then the informed forum can give accurate advice on how to proceed.

[Nerdtothe3rd]

*Tosses two pennies into the thread*
Unfortunately, it seems your DM is very inexperienced and would rather "Roleplay" then actually do anything remotely based on the mechanics of the game. This is not a bad thing in and of itself, but then he invents rules on the fly to punish those he sees as trying to meta-game (Actually use the mechanics of the game)

I think you should probably find a new group or DM the group from now on till they come into their own. But barring that option.

Play your fighter how you feel. Isn't he tired of always having to carry the group through places? I mean if he is the one killing everything and everyone why does he need this group of whimps following him around chanting their silly little spells that aren't doing much?

He has the excuse of maybe letting them get ruffed up a bit. Use it for your character's enjoyment. Heck maybe being the d*ck will make them want to get better just to refute the claim that they are weak. Every battle just saunter around and beat up the baddies but don't kill them and then saunter off to a tree or wall or whatever and hold up your shield, announce you are fighting in total defense and roleplay it as him just enjoying the show of the party struggling. Play him as being superior to them and knowing it.

Trust me when I say, when you play with someone who plays as if they are better you want to make your character better to show them they are not.

Sometimes you need to lead them backward to the water.

[Squark]

I think the issue is that, to put it bluntly, this DM isn't using the right system. He needs to find a much faster, rules-lite system for the game he wants to run. D&D simply isn't designed to be played with that strict a player-character separation- How on earth did you figure out what the enhancement bonus on the banded mail was, unless he broke his own rule (or the rules don't apply to him)?

[georgie_leech]

*Tosses two pennies into the thread*
Unfortunately, it seems your DM is very inexperienced and would rather "Roleplay" then actually do anything remotely based on the mechanics of the game. This is not a bad thing in and of itself, but then he invents rules on the fly to punish those he sees as trying to meta-game (Actually use the mechanics of the game)

I think you should probably find a new group or DM the group from now on till they come into their own. But barring that option.

Play your fighter how you feel. Isn't he tired of always having to carry the group through places? I mean if he is the one killing everything and everyone why does he need this group of whimps following him around chanting their silly little spells that aren't doing much?

He has the excuse of maybe letting them get ruffed up a bit. Use it for your character's enjoyment. Heck maybe being the d*ck will make them want to get better just to refute the claim that they are weak. Every battle just saunter around and beat up the baddies but don't kill them and then saunter off to a tree or wall or whatever and hold up your shield, announce you are fighting in total defense and roleplay it as him just enjoying the show of the party struggling. Play him as being superior to them and knowing it.

Trust me when I say, when you play with someone who plays as if they are better you want to make your character better to show them they are not.

Sometimes you need to lead them backward to the water.

Somehow I doubt the solution to "The DM thinks my character is unbalanced and is overshadowing the group" is to play up the fact that he overshadows the group. :smallconfused:

[Squark]

Somehow I doubt the solution to "The DM thinks my character is unbalanced and is overshadowing the group" is to play up the fact that he overshadows the group. :smallconfused:

No, but his character bringing up the fact he doesn't think the other characters are living up to their full potential might not be a bad idea if he can figure out a way to get it past this DM's byzantine house rules.

[Nerdtothe3rd]

Somehow I doubt the solution to "The DM thinks my character is unbalanced and is overshadowing the group" is to play up the fact that he overshadows the group. :smallconfused:

True but spurring on the rest of the party to want to do better, want to research and try and become a better player might not be bad.

Also how do you get called OP if you are not doing anything.

[Talakeal]

*Tosses two pennies into the thread*
Unfortunately, it seems your DM is very inexperienced and would rather "Roleplay" then actually do anything remotely based on the mechanics of the game. This is not a bad thing in and of itself, but then he invents rules on the fly to punish those he sees as trying to meta-game (Actually use the mechanics of the game)

I think you should probably find a new group or DM the group from now on till they come into their own. But barring that option.

Play your fighter how you feel. Isn't he tired of always having to carry the group through places? I mean if he is the one killing everything and everyone why does he need this group of whimps following him around chanting their silly little spells that aren't doing much?

He has the excuse of maybe letting them get ruffed up a bit. Use it for your character's enjoyment. Heck maybe being the d*ck will make them want to get better just to refute the claim that they are weak. Every battle just saunter around and beat up the baddies but don't kill them and then saunter off to a tree or wall or whatever and hold up your shield, announce you are fighting in total defense and roleplay it as him just enjoying the show of the party struggling. Play him as being superior to them and knowing it.

Trust me when I say, when you play with someone who plays as if they are better you want to make your character better to show them they are not.

Sometimes you need to lead them backward to the water.

Great idea, but it presupposes that the players are the type who rise to challenges. In my experience there are two types of players, those who believe "When the going gets tough the tough get going," and those who believe "When the going gets tough I give up," and the latter would simply quite the game or whine.

Also, the DM would almost certainly put a stop to it.


I think the issue is that, to put it bluntly, this DM isn't using the right system. He needs to find a much faster, rules-lite system for the game he wants to run. D&D simply isn't designed to be played with that strict a player-character separation- How on earth did you figure out what the enhancement bonus on the banded mail was, unless he broke his own rule (or the rules don't apply to him)?

The DM actually told me it was a "glowing suit of field plate," and between sessions changed a bunch of numbers on my sheet. I tried to reverse engineer it and +1 banded mail is the closest I can get to.


How can you have the Dodge feat with 12 Dex?

I didn't realize dodge had a dex requirement, guess I will switch it out.


*Tosses two pennies into the thread*
Unfortunately, it seems your DM is very inexperienced and would rather "Roleplay" then actually do anything remotely based on the mechanics of the game. This is not a bad thing in and of itself, but then he invents rules on the fly to punish those he sees as trying to meta-game (Actually use the mechanics of the game)

I think you should probably find a new group or DM the group from now on till they come into their own. But barring that option.

Play your fighter how you feel. Isn't he tired of always having to carry the group through places? I mean if he is the one killing everything and everyone why does he need this group of whimps following him around chanting their silly little spells that aren't doing much?

He has the excuse of maybe letting them get ruffed up a bit. Use it for your character's enjoyment. Heck maybe being the d*ck will make them want to get better just to refute the claim that they are weak. Every battle just saunter around and beat up the baddies but don't kill them and then saunter off to a tree or wall or whatever and hold up your shield, announce you are fighting in total defense and roleplay it as him just enjoying the show of the party struggling. Play him as being superior to them and knowing it.

Trust me when I say, when you play with someone who plays as if they are better you want to make your character better to show them they are not.

Sometimes you need to lead them backward to the water.

He isn't inexperienced. He claims to have been DMing longer than I have been alive (and I am no spring chicken anymore) and owns just about every D&D book from every edition ever published, and is constantly referencing obscure PF splat books that I have never even heard of.

I think he is just trying to recreate the "good old days" of omnipotent DM's and rules light games.


True but spurring on the rest of the party to want to do better, want to research and try and become a better player might not be bad.

Also how do you get called OP if you are not doing anything.

Well, as I said I do seem to do more damage than the rest of the group combined most fights. It came up when I hit 4th level and the DM asked me what feat I wanted to take. I told him "weapon specialization" and he gave me a frowny face followed by a lecture about how he can't challenge me without killing the rest of the part and told me he would much prefer I start taking feats that improve my versatility rather my power, such as ranged feats or these weird limited use feats that let me use other classes abilities once a day.



Also, this is not the first time I have run into the problem of a DM who doesn't know how to challenge a straight fighter. They see HP, AC, BaB/Thac0, and damage dice that are far above the rest of the party and immediately scream OP. And in a group when people (either the DM or the other players) can't think outside the box when it comes to spells or tactics that is almost the case, although I still fail to see how a straight fighter can stand toe to toe with the monsters in the MM without some pretty decent tactics / optimization / good magic items. This attitude normally fades about the time people learn to use Save or Lose / Die / Suck spells instead of blasting or start tripping instead of attacking, but in this group the DM just seems to change the rules to correct any perceived imbalances so that may never happen.

[Squark]

The DM actually told me it was a "glowing suit of field plate," and between sessions changed a bunch of numbers on my sheet. I tried to reverse engineer it and +1 banded mail is the closest I can get to.

... I don't... Why on earth is this guy playing 3rd edition?

I think your best bet is to give him free reign over your character sheet if you really want to stay in the game, and maybe suggest the party try 2nd edition or something since it seems like he's trying to make Pathfinder into d&d basic (Phrase it differently, obviously).

[jiriku]

Yeah. There's a conflicting set of expectations here. You and he are not playing the same game.

[Threadnaught]

He isn't inexperienced. He claims to have been DMing longer than I have been alive (and I am no spring chicken anymore) and owns just about every D&D book from every edition ever published, and is constantly referencing obscure PF splat books that I have never even heard of.

My my, such arrogance, it's like looking in a mirror. Could I have a little discussion argument flame war with your DM, on a one to one basis?


I think he is just trying to recreate the "good old days" of omnipotent DM's and rules light games.

Yeah, you should definitely run.


Celestia has abandoned your gaming life. Maybe you can try gaming with someone here, you're among friends.

[Windstorm]

The DM actually told me it was a "glowing suit of field plate," and between sessions changed a bunch of numbers on my sheet. I tried to reverse engineer it and +1 banded mail is the closest I can get to.

He isn't inexperienced. He claims to have been DMing longer than I have been alive (and I am no spring chicken anymore) and owns just about every D&D book from every edition ever published, and is constantly referencing obscure PF splat books that I have never even heard of.


http://i.imgur.com/6WiapWd.gif


I had a response to this, then I read the above, all I have left is the gif

[Nerdtothe3rd]

Yeah I have to agree, just run. Run Far and Run Fast.

[RolkFlameraven]

He isn't inexperienced. He claims to have been DMing longer than I have been alive (and I am no spring chicken anymore) and owns just about every D&D book from every edition ever published, and is constantly referencing obscure PF splat books that I have never even heard of.

I think he is just trying to recreate the "good old days" of omnipotent DM's and rules light games.

Doesn't really jive with


They see HP, AC, BaB/Thac0, and damage dice that are far above the rest of the party and immediately scream OP.

I mean really, even a DM with only a few years under their belt will know that 'put the pointy end into the other man' can't come close to magic, even magic being used as just a hammer and not a full tool box.

I'm still trying to understand how he can be upset over wep spec and want you to burn feats on BS 1/day things but bans bards... that boggles my mind.

If he is pulling out odd Pathfinder books of all things he has to be using 3rd party, there just isn't enough PF books for it to be pure any other way. IF that is true... well Path of War is out and, despite giving you one hell of a power boost, would be much closer to what he seem to be after.

Your other, and best option, would be to talk to the other players. Try to help them be better at what they do. I don't care if the DM doesn't want you to do it, it need to be done. Talk to the Druid about how he can do so much more then heal bot (with what has to be the worse heal bot class that has healing magic) talk to the witch about all the other spells that they have, things like that.

Because unless the whole other team just sit around and buffs/heal you they can't be doing much or rolled utter crap. Now if they ARE doing nothing but healing/buffing you then your DM is just nuts and the game is going as it should be.

[Rater202]

I'm gonna second the "Talk big" BS. He ain't experienced, he just thinks he is.

[Sith_Happens]

...By any chance is this DM named Sean K. Reynolds?

[eggynack]

I mean really, even a DM with only a few years under their belt will know that 'put the pointy end into the other man' can't come close to magic, even magic being used as just a hammer and not a full tool box.

I disagree. Experience doesn't connect perfectly to system mastery, and someone can have years of gaming on their belt and still not know how completely high tier classes crush low tier classes into the ground. I've talked to a good number of people, people who have likely played the game significantly more than I have, who still think that monks are the end all and be all of power. A person could probably play their whole life and still not have a good understanding of that sort of thing, just because they've never really questioned their preconceived notions of how the game operates.

[The Glyphstone]

...By any chance is this DM named Sean K. Reynolds?

I've had plenty to say about SKR's faults as a game designer in the past, but even he's shown a better grasp of fundamental game concepts than this person.

[Qwertystop]

SKR's a major designer who makes a lot of... questionable design decisions.

[sonofzeal]

I would recommend a slightly different approach.

Abandon your Fighter. They're like 99% passive effects anyway, so your DM isn't going to be happy with anything you do there. Ask to reroll a replacement if he doesn't like it.

Make an... oh, let's say... TWF Ranger using Shield Bash for the off-hand attack, if that still works in PF. Get banned the first session.

Make a Sorcerer actually using your spells effectively and creatively. Get banned.

See how many of the core classes you can get banned, then start one the ones the other players are using. Save those for last though, because by then they'll see what you're doing. Don't be n arse about it, don't Pun-Pun or use infinite loops or anything actually broken, just patiently demonstrate piece by piece how, y'know, every class has ways to contribute just as well as your fighter is, and slowly recalibrate his (and the group's) expectations of what a D&D character can do.

[Qwertystop]

I would recommend a slightly different approach.

Abandon your Fighter. They're like 99% passive effects anyway, so your DM isn't going to be happy with anything you do there. Ask to reroll a replacement if he doesn't like it.

Make an... oh, let's say... TWF Ranger using Shield Bash for the off-hand attack, if that still works in PF. Get banned the first session.

Make a Sorcerer actually using your spells effectively and creatively. Get banned.

See how many of the core classes you can get banned, then start one the ones the other players are using. Save those for last though, because by then they'll see what you're doing. Don't be n arse about it, don't Pun-Pun or use infinite loops or anything actually broken, just patiently demonstrate piece by piece how, y'know, every class has ways to contribute just as well as your fighter is, and slowly recalibrate his (and the group's) expectations of what a D&D character can do.

I agree with this, but the importance of keeping it simple cannot be overstated. Don't do anything that seems to go beyond the most obvious intent of the ability, don't do anything that would be OP by a better-calibrated standard. For example, don't make a book of Explosive Runes and then dispel-bob it - just use one, write it on a bit of paper, and slip it under the door. Break a box if the lock is too good. Simple things like that, because if you do anything crazy (benchmark: does it involve chaining abilities together? That's too much) they can say you're going overboard, and that you're the problem.

[OldTrees1]

I would recommend a slightly different approach.

Abandon your Fighter. They're like 99% passive effects anyway, so your DM isn't going to be happy with anything you do there. Ask to reroll a replacement if he doesn't like it.

Make an... oh, let's say... TWF Ranger using Shield Bash for the off-hand attack, if that still works in PF. Get banned the first session.

Make a Sorcerer actually using your spells effectively and creatively. Get banned.

See how many of the core classes you can get banned, then start one the ones the other players are using. Save those for last though, because by then they'll see what you're doing. Don't be n arse about it, don't Pun-Pun or use infinite loops or anything actually broken, just patiently demonstrate piece by piece how, y'know, every class has ways to contribute just as well as your fighter is, and slowly recalibrate his (and the group's) expectations of what a D&D character can do.

Huh. With enough finesse (more than in this quote suggests) this might work without being passive aggressive. Without the finesse the group will either conclude all the classes are broken or, more likely, you are broken.

[Blackhawk748]

I agree wholeheartedly with the Firefly gif, because there is NO WAY i can phrase it better than that.

Also i second the "give every other core class a whirl" recommendation as well as helping the other PCs, because if you are doing all their DPS something has gone so horribly wrong.

On a completely side note, you should totally TWF with Bastard Swords, apparently this group is sup optimal and TH Fighting is so OP

Edit: Aaaaand i just looked at that first thread.............. please tell me Restoration works on San loss......

[Talakeal]

I agree wholeheartedly with the Firefly gif, because there is NO WAY i can phrase it better than that.

Also i second the "give every other core class a whirl" recommendation as well as helping the other PCs, because if you are doing all their DPS something has gone so horribly wrong.

On a completely side note, you should totally TWF with Bastard Swords, apparently this group is sup optimal and TH Fighting is so OP

Oh right, I forgot about that one.

Dual Wielding is also banned in this campaign. I remember the rogue asked if he could do it and he was given a long lecture about how cheesy and unrealistic it was.

Ok, now I know it sounds like I am trolling, but I swear I am not!

[Blackhawk748]

Dual Wielding is also banned in this campaign. I remember the rogue asked if he could do it and he was given a long lecture about how cheesy and unrealistic it was.

Excuse me while i go get my Boffer weapons and let him have it.

TWF is neither cheesy nor unrealistic. Seriously there is an actual fencing style that involves a Rapier and a Dagger. In my case i wield a Katana and a Shotsword IIRC that too is an actual fighting style. Im not saying that it was particularly common, but it is real. Actually i can Dual Wield actual real weight weapons, not just boffer weapons. And no im not some crazy body builder, im just a normal factory worker.

[Nerdtothe3rd]

Oh right, I forgot about that one.

Dual Wielding is also banned in this campaign. I remember the rogue asked if he could do it and he was given a long lecture about how cheesy and unrealistic it was.

Ok, now I know it sounds like I am trolling, but I swear I am not!

Leave the game that is all I can say.

[Troacctid]

So not only are you OP with only two feats' separation from the iconic Fighter, but the iconic Fighter himself is banned? Huh. Have you shown your DM the iconic Fighter? You'd think that sort of thing would be a baseline at worst; premade sample characters are like the polar opposite of cheese.

[Nihilarian]

Oh right, I forgot about that one.

Dual Wielding is also banned in this campaign. I remember the rogue asked if he could do it and he was given a long lecture about how cheesy and unrealistic it was.

Ok, now I know it sounds like I am trolling, but I swear I am not!Hahahahahahaha

[Rater202]

Excuse me while i go get my Boffer weapons and let him have it.

TWF is neither cheesy nor unrealistic. Seriously there is an actual fencing style that involves a Rapier and a Dagger. In my case i wield a Katana and a Shotsword IIRC that too is an actual fighting style. Im not saying that it was particularly common, but it is real. Actually i can Dual Wield actual real weight weapons, not just boffer weapons. And no im not some crazy body builder, im just a normal factory worker.

Don't forget Sai's and the classic two daggers-aint no rule says you can't duel wield two of the same weapon if they's only one hand or light.

Actually, that means weapon focus because a viable option, specialization if fighter, so it might be smarter to think 2 of the same.

[nedz]

Oh right, I forgot about that one.

Dual Wielding is also banned in this campaign. I remember the rogue asked if he could do it and he was given a long lecture about how cheesy and unrealistic it was.

Ok, now I know it sounds like I am trolling, but I swear I am not!

Actually TWF was reasonably good in AD&D — which may be where he is coming from ?
It wasn't game breaking or anything, just worth doing if you were dex based.

[Arbane]

Dual Wielding is also banned in this campaign. I remember the rogue asked if he could do it and he was given a long lecture about how cheesy and unrealistic it was.

/suppresses ten page rant about Caster Supremacy and the delusion of 'realism'

... He _does_ remember that this is a game with flying, fire-breating dragons and spellcasters, RIGHT?

[Extra Anchovies]

/suppresses ten page rant about Caster Supremacy and the delusion of 'realism'

... He _does_ remember that this is a game with flying, fire-breating dragons and spellcasters, RIGHT?

I don't know if he does. If they really wanted to make the flying fire lizards a prominent part of the game, they should've put them in the title...

wait

[Balmas]

Oh right, I forgot about that one.

Dual Wielding is also banned in this campaign. I remember the rogue asked if he could do it and he was given a long lecture about how cheesy and unrealistic it was.

Ok, now I know it sounds like I am trolling, but I swear I am not!

I'm sorry. I'm trying to see your DM's point of view, but it's taking its toll. TWF, especially in Pathfinder, is one of the weakest fighting styles out there. And if realism is what he wants, he certainly isn't playing the game for it.

My suggestion would be to sit down and see if you can't figure out what he wants in this game. If, as I suspect, what he wants is to tell a story, then anything you do is only going to get in the way.

[Rover]

Oh right, I forgot about that one.

Dual Wielding is also banned in this campaign. I remember the rogue asked if he could do it and he was given a long lecture about how cheesy and unrealistic it was.

Ok, now I know it sounds like I am trolling, but I swear I am not!

https://i.imgflip.com/cmju2.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/cmju2)

Edit: Sorry if I'm being a little harsh, but I just don't see why he would ban TWF.