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Roderick_BR
2007-03-13, 05:58 PM
Say, I was thinking (oh noes!): How good would be using TWF for a rogue? And adding OSWF with Weapon Finesse with rapiers. Since rogues have a max of +15 BAB, he doesn't lose much having "only" 3 extra attacks. And most rogues doesn't have high strenght, nor use power attack, and doesn't have good two-handed weapons, so it's not a big loss on THW.

Non-specific race rogue, with starting Dex of 15. (long)---------->


Level BAB Feats Dex Weapon 1 Attack Critical Weapon 2 Attack Critical
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 +0 Weapon Finesse 15 Rapier +2 18-20/x2 - - -
2 +1 15 Rapier +3 18-20/x2 - - -
3 +2 TWF 15 Rapier +2 18-20/x2 Short Sword +2 19-20/x2
4 +3 16 Rapier +4 18-20/x2 Short Sword +4 19-20/x2
5 +3 16 Rapier MW +5 18-20/x2 Short Sword +4 19-20/x2
6 +4 Oversized TWF 16(18) Rapier MW +7 18-20/x2 Rapier MW +7 18-20/x2
7 +5 16(18) Rapier MW +8 18-20/x2 Rapier MW +8 18-20/x2
8 +6/+1 17(19) Rapier MW +9/+4 18-20/x2 Rapier MW +9 18-20/x2
9 +6/+1 Improved TWF 17(19) Rapier +1 +9/+4 18-20/x2 Rapier MW +9/+4 18-20/x2
10 +7/+2 17(19) Rapier +1 +10/+5 18-20/x2 Rapier +1 +10/+5 18-20/x2
11 +8/+3 17(21) Rapier +1 +12/+7 18-20/x2 Rapier +1 +12/+7 18-20/x2
12 +9/+4 Improved Critical 18(22) Rapier +1 +14/+9 15-20/x2 Rapier +1 +14/+9 15-20/x2
13 +9/+4 18(22) Rapier +2 +15/+10 15-20/x2 Rapier +1 +15/+9 15-20/x2
14 +10/+5 18(22) Rapier +2 +16/+11 15-20/x2 Rapier +2 +16/+11 15-20/x2
15 +11/+6/+1 Greater TWF 18(22) Rapier +2 +17/+12/+7 15-20/x2 Rapier +2 +17/+12/+7 15-20/x2
16 +12/+7/+2 19(25) Rapier +2 +19/+14/+9 15-20/x2 Rapier +2 +19/+14/+9 15-20/x2
17 +12/+7/+2 19(25) Rapier +3 +20/+15/+10 15-20/x2 Rapier +2 +19/+14/+9 15-20/x2
18 +13/+8/+3 Free feat 19(25) Rapier +3 +21/+16/+11 15-20/x2 Rapier +3 +21/+16/+11 15-20/x2
19 +14/+9/+4 19(25) Rapier +3 +22/+17/+12 15-20/x2 Rapier +3 +22/+17/+12 15-20/x2
20 +15/+10/+5 20(26) Rapier +3 +24/+19/+14 15-20/x2 Rapier +3 +24/+19/+14 15-20/x2


These are the pros and cons I could came up till now:

Pros:
* Extra attacks. Maximum of 6, compared to his usual 3.
* Added chance of scoring a critical, since he rolls attacks 6 times.
* More attacks means more sneak attacks when flanking.
* Rogues usually have no shield and have no good two handed weapons, so no big loss on choosing this build over a sword and shield or two-handed + Power Attack/Shock Trooper build.

Cons:
* Heavy cost on feats
* Requires full attack, limiting a rogue's movement.
* Obviously another sneak-attack based build. Creatures immune to critical hits won't be affected much.
* -2 on attacks making each individual attack harder to hit.
* Takes a long time to get effective. You get the last needed feat only at level 15.

Add those tricks to get an high AC, and this build could be an awesome flanking character.

Rogue build, assuming no especific race, initial dex 15, 2 rapiers+3 and gloves of dexterity +6 by level 20.

Now, to go more extreme: Starting Dex at 18, rising +5 with level, magic enhancement +5, gloves +6, rapiers +5
BAB 15 + Dex 12 + Rapier 5 - TWF 2 = +30/+30/+25/+25/+20/+20, dealing 1d6 +5 +10d6 for each attack, 2d6 +10 +10d6 on a confirmed critical.
Your best attack (normally a +32) gets lowered to a +30, but your second attack (+27) is replaced by a +30, and your last, worse attack (+22), turns into two +25. Your last 2 additional attacks are +20/+20, but you already got 3 better average attacks, so it's worth it. You'll roll them just for the heck of it. If you hit, the better, if don't, no big loss.

So, does this idea has any merit?

Draz74
2007-03-13, 06:03 PM
So, does this idea has any merit?

Yes, your idea has merit. Unfortunately, what it lacks (at least on these boards) is novelty. TWF Rogues are pretty popular builds to discuss on these boards, and are well-known.

But by all means, try it out in your games! :smallwink:

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-13, 06:07 PM
Switch TWF and Weapon Finesse; you need BAB +1 for it.

Roderick_BR
2007-03-13, 06:09 PM
@Draz: Thanks. I'll use it with alongside a Tank for a pair of NPCs ;)
@Hunter: Oh, you are right, I'll fix it, thanks.

cupkeyk
2007-03-13, 06:10 PM
And generally taking three levels of Swashbuckler and choosing Daring Outlaw over Weapon Finesse frees up feats and ups your BAB and lets you select a kukri insead of a rapier.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-13, 06:15 PM
Why would you use two rapiers? That blows a feat on OTWF for 1 damage more and a slightly better crit range than two shortswords. That extra crit range isn't worth much, since your base damage will be almost nothing--your sneak attack isn't multiplied on a crit.

Jacob Orlove
2007-03-13, 06:37 PM
Also, generic +X Weapons are probably less useful here than Wounding weapons, since the constitution damage stacks, and you get a lot more hits with it.

cupkeyk
2007-03-13, 06:38 PM
Why would you use two rapiers? That blows a feat on OTWF for 1 damage more and a slightly better crit range than two shortswords. That extra crit range isn't worth much, since your base damage will be almost nothing--your sneak attack isn't multiplied on a crit.

But, if he opted for Telling Blow and Improved Critical, it could mean a whole lot. If he can free up two feats. Ninuninuninu.

This is an old idea anyway and I suggest OP just use the search option for that thread.


Also, generic +X Weapons are probably less useful here than Wounding weapons, since the constitution damage stacks, and you get a lot more hits with it.

And/Or Disemboweling strike.

And Crippling Strike + Savvy Rogue makes you an actual threat to undead, constructs, plats and oozes since you paralyze them in about a round or two.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-13, 06:41 PM
It wouldn't mean much, because he can get that same sneak attack damage by flanking. Telling Blow doesn't add your sneak attack damage again if you're already getting it.

Roderick_BR
2007-03-13, 06:42 PM
I know, but it's still a possible extra damage.
Hmm... the swashbuckler idea is a good one.

cupkeyk
2007-03-13, 06:47 PM
It wouldn't mean much, because he can get that same sneak attack damage by flanking. Telling Blow doesn't add your sneak attack damage again if you're already getting it.

True, but then monsters with all around vision and improved uncanny dodge are more likely as you get higher in level and having a third trigger to your SA damage prevents possible situational gimping.

As for the Swashbuckler idea: Of course, as has been mentioned, this is a largely established build.

Quietus
2007-03-13, 07:01 PM
How many high levels monsters have all-around vision and improved uncanny dodge? I can't think of particularly many off the top of my head.

That said, I think any DM that makes a point of gimping you everywhere you look really needs to consider altering his style. Sure, every now and then it's all good - go on the defensive, provide flanking, and aid the fighter. Awesome! But if he's doing it ALL the time, then that's just being vindictive.

cupkeyk
2007-03-13, 07:09 PM
How many high levels monsters have all-around vision and improved uncanny dodge? I can't think of particularly many off the top of my head.

That said, I think any DM that makes a point of gimping you everywhere you look really needs to consider altering his style. Sure, every now and then it's all good - go on the defensive, provide flanking, and aid the fighter. Awesome! But if he's doing it ALL the time, then that's just being vindictive.

All humanoids and Monstrous humanoids with Rogue or Barbarian as their favored class and their boss the beholder.

Theodoxus
2007-03-13, 08:32 PM
Personally, I'd go with the fighter option in the UA to trade fighter feats for sneak attack damage - and use this build with the much better bab, and access to better weaponry (say, dwarven fighter with paired dwarven waraxes).

But yeah, Rogues are really the only core class that utilizes TWF to it's best potential, so the build is really common.

Roderick_BR
2007-03-13, 08:44 PM
I see. I'm thinking about getting some non-human race and make him a recurring villain. Thanks for the suggestions on extra feats. I'm thinking about using weapons that deal extra effects, like trips and disarms now.

Aximili
2007-03-13, 08:48 PM
If you can find any way to invest on your crippling strike, DO IT.
That is the only ability that puts you appart from a sneak attack fighter, or from a rogue4/swash16 with Daring Outlaw. So invest heavily on it, it is a great ability.

Darrin
2007-03-13, 10:13 PM
Why would you use two rapiers? That blows a feat on OTWF for 1 damage more and a slightly better crit range than two shortswords. That extra crit range isn't worth much, since your base damage will be almost nothing--your sneak attack isn't multiplied on a crit.

Dip into Dervish to get the same crit range with scimitars, no need for a feat... better spent on Craven, anyway.

Rogue BAB also shorts you on an iterative attack. I'd recommend going Rogue/Swashbuckler, and taking that feat Daring whatever that lets you count Swashbuckler levels towards your sneak damage.

And not taking "Shadow Blade", maybe with a SwordSage dip (maybe after 8th level to pick up Assassin's stance) should be some kind of crime. With three levels of Swashbuckler, that's Int and Dex on damage, plus Craven, plus Assassin's Stance for another 2d6 sneak damage. Maybe squeeze in Champion of Corellian for double Dex on damage.

Zincorium
2007-03-13, 10:25 PM
Dip into Dervish to get the same crit range with scimitars, no need for a feat... better spent on Craven, anyway.

Rogue BAB also shorts you on an iterative attack. I'd recommend going Rogue/Swashbuckler, and taking that feat Daring whatever that lets you count Swashbuckler levels towards your sneak damage.

And not taking "Shadow Blade", maybe with a SwordSage dip (maybe after 8th level to pick up Assassin's stance) should be some kind of crime. With three levels of Swashbuckler, that's Int and Dex on damage, plus Craven, plus Assassin's Stance for another 2d6 sneak damage. Maybe squeeze in Champion of Corellian for double Dex on damage.

Unfortunately, Shadow hand and champion of corellion larethian are weapon specific and contain no weapons in common. We'll figure out a way someday.

TheOOB
2007-03-13, 10:38 PM
I hate to break it to you, but oversized two-weapon fighting is a pretty bad feat, you'd be much better off wielding a rapier and a short sword, or if you have to take imp crit two short swords(or two kukris if you can spare a level or two of fighter, which you should as straight rogue is pretty horrible.)

EDIT: I've had success with a fighter/rogue/invisible blade/tempest using a pair of wounding kukri's, if it had a con score and wasn't immune to crits it was probally dead.

McBish
2007-03-13, 10:50 PM
Can I suggest using wounding weapons. And take the rouge special ablity Crippling Strike. Ablity damage is good with lots of hits.

LotharBot
2007-03-13, 11:32 PM
crits are basically worthless to this build. You get what, an extra d6+3 damage on a confirmed crit? Not worth two feats for OTWF and imp.crit. You'll do much better with something like a pair of shortswords and some feats designed to make you hit more often and get an extra d6+3+10d6 sneak+whatever else you get on a normal attack.

Consider wounding weapons and wounding strike (for stat drains etc.), combat reflexes, and the opportunist ability (for attacks of opportunity.) Heck, maybe even take a feat of weapon focus just so you'll land your hits 5% more often.

cupkeyk
2007-03-14, 12:41 AM
Can I suggest using wounding weapons. And take the rouge special ablity Crippling Strike. Ablity damage is good with lots of hits.

Yay for people who don't read the thread before replying with redundancy.

Ardantis
2007-03-14, 01:18 AM
See, I dunno, I think TWF is overrated for a rogue who doesn't want to die. I mean, if you really really trust your fighter for flanking without taking heat, sure, but the swashbuckler/rogue with Daring Outlaw, Spring Attack, and the Acrobatic Backstab skill feat can run-and-gun circles around an armored enemy in a cluttered room, getting Sneak Attacks all the while. Then you just have to keep an eye out for good terrain, because that's the key to abusing the Swashbuckler's Acrobatic Charge ability.

Plus, I might be TOTALLY nuts, but can't you only apply Sneak Attack damage once per round? I remember reading that somewheres...

Quietus
2007-03-14, 01:34 AM
Nope, sneak attack can be applied on any attack that qualifies for it (whenever your opponent is flanked, or whenever they're denied their dex to AC). They've specifically said that on the Wizards FAQ, I'm pretty sure. I know a few people who run houserules to that effect though, since as how crazy-scary rogues get at high levels.

Jalil
2007-03-14, 05:13 AM
Oh, nevermind then.

@OP: Rogue 20 is a dead level. Take Swashbuckler at level one for a free Weapon finesse, which, since you now have access to all martial weapons, can be applied to Kukri's, freeing up your OTWF feat for something far better. e.g. Telling blow(PHBII). Actually, after lvl 13, you should go back to swash, picking up the feat to let it count for SA dice, to get int to damage, as well as the full BAB to get a fourth attack. Your guy would look better as:
1 Swashbuckler1. Weapon Finesse, TWF
2 Rogue1. SA 1d6
3-16 Rogue2-13 SA 7d6, Imp. Evasion, Crippling strike
17-20 Swash2-4, BAB +16, Grace, Int to damage.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-14, 05:16 AM
"You deal your skirmish or sneak attack damage". Which... you're already doing.

When they're flatfooted, you deal your sneak attack damage.
When you're flanking, you deal your sneak attack damage.
You don't deal it twice if both occur.

Plus, CustServ has repeatedly said so.


Edit: crazy-scary? Rogues are fragile, do less damage than damage-heavy fighters, and can't sneak attack a bunch of monsters plus anyone with heavy fortification armor.
Meh.

its_all_ogre
2007-03-14, 05:21 AM
erm.........no frankly.
(ninja'd was not aimed at BWL)

Zherog
2007-03-14, 11:03 AM
See, I dunno, I think TWF is overrated for a rogue who doesn't want to die. I mean, if you really really trust your fighter for flanking without taking heat, sure, ...

I highly recommend a cloak of displacement as part of your equipment, for just this reason. Getting a high AC on a rogue isn't too difficult, and helps. But if you can couple that high AC with a miss chance for everything that attacks you, it's even better. Even the 20% miss chance of the lesser cloak means 1 out of every 5 hits against you is negated.

The only cloak a rogue typically cares about is a cloak of resistance, and you can simply get a vest of resistance at the same cost and have the benefits of both items.

cupkeyk
2007-03-14, 12:02 PM
A wand of blink(Assuming that you maxed out UMD) is better and works great with ghost touch weapons.

Mages can just cast Improved or greater resistance on party rogues and eventually mindblank.

Zherog
2007-03-14, 12:17 PM
The problem with blink is that it causes some of your attacks to miss. When you're build concept is hit as often as possible so you can deal sneak attack and critical striking and wounding damage, the 20% miss chance from blink (whether you get it directly from the wizard, or via wand or ring) just isn't worth it.

Greater blink, however, is a worthwhile investment if you can get it.

Roderick_BR
2007-03-14, 12:27 PM
Blinking rogues? lol! Man, my group will hate me after I used this rogue... XD
Or maybe I could get him an improved invisibility power. Till the players notice what's happening, he's likely to put down one or two characters.

Person_Man
2007-03-14, 12:28 PM
I agree that there's really no reason to use Oversized TWF, unless you need to Power Attack with your off hand.


If you can find any way to invest on your crippling strike, DO IT.
That is the only ability that puts you appart from a sneak attack fighter, or from a rogue4/swash16 with Daring Outlaw. So invest heavily on it, it is a great ability.

I would say Rogue 3/Swash 17 with Daring Outlaw is probably the best (non-convoluted, 5 PrC) build for Sneak Attack damage. But if your build goal is to deal massive all day melee damage, even the most optimized Sneak Attack generally does a much poorer job then at least half a dozen other methods I can think of. If your goal is to play a Skill Monkey who as a side note isn't useless in combat, then TWF Rogue is a good way to go.

LotharBot
2007-03-14, 02:22 PM
Also remember: every 2 points of CON damage is worth the creature's hitdice in HP. With wounding weapons, that gives a TWF build the ability to do triple the creature's hitdice in extra damage every round.

It's still not up there with what a melee fighter with PA, shock trooper, and leap attack will do with a greatsword... but it's not bad.

Aximili
2007-03-14, 06:34 PM
I would say Rogue 3/Swash 17 with Daring Outlaw is probably the best (non-convoluted, 5 PrC) build for Sneak Attack damage.
I agree. I was just saying that in case he wants to go full rogue (and it looks like he does).

Roderick_BR
2007-03-15, 11:21 AM
I agree. I was just saying that in case he wants to go full rogue (and it looks like he does).
With the ideas here, I'm thinking about making a multiclass to torment my group from time to time.

Rigeld2
2007-03-15, 11:26 AM
A wand of blink(Assuming that you maxed out UMD) is better and works great with ghost touch weapons.
Absolutely False.
Blink:

You “blink” back and forth between the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane.
Ghost Touch weapons:

Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#incorporeality) at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder.
Definition of incorporeal:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#incorporeality

Never mentions the Ethereal plane. Ghost Touch weapons dont help if youre Blinking/attacking a Blinking creature. Stop spreading an incorrect interpretation.