Corner Cases that make Commander's Strike better than it appears on paper.

[mabriss lethe]

Commander's strike trades an attack and a bonus action to grant an ally a reaction attack with bonus damage from the superiority die. It's generally not seen as a good trade. With the right party at the right place/time I think it could still be an advantageous ability: Namely, if your party also has a Way of Shadow Monk and another mid/front line damage dealer. Of course, this won't come online until level 17, so it's a high level tactic.

Initiative order:
-Monk
-Foe#1
-Ally#1
-Foe#2
-Battlemaster

Here's the setup: Monk and Ally#2 are already in position around Foe#1 from the previous round. The foe has already taken some damage. Our battle master is in front of Foe #2 when he makes his attacks. He spends two attacks to double shove Foe #2, succeeding on both, leaving Foe# 2 prone and pushed closer to the Monk & Friend. For his 3rd attack, The Battlemaster uses Commander's strike to give Ally#2 an attack on Foe #1. This will trigger the Monk's Opportunist ability, allowing him to get a reaction swing on Foe #1 as well, taking him out of the fight either immediately or somewhere in the monk's next turn.

Monk and company then descend on Foe #2, who is still prone and now within melee range of all three party members. Things get tied up pretty nicely at that point.

[Keko]

I think that making the party rogue attack if he qualifies for sneak sttack is the easiest example.
SA is 1/round but this would be the Battlemaster's round so it is (I think) the only way to SA more than once per turn.

[mabriss lethe]

Rogue was my first choice for Ally#1, but decided that it could use any melee capable class for the setup as long as the Monk was on standby. Last I heard, there's still some argument as to whether or not a Rogue can even attempt an SA when not acting within their turn, so I wanted to eliminate that from the equation.

The scenario was to show that commander's strike has some high level tactical uses for tilting an encounter in the party's favor by controlling the pace of the encounter.

[Gnomes2169]

Helps the paladin go nova, or helps a hunter ranger with collosus slayer and hunter's mark get some decent melee damage.

Oddly enough, the beastmaster ranger can hit with this rather well, since he and his pet both get a reaction, and they technically count as two allies, so they effectively double the damage the battlemaster's superiority dice gives them...

[Z3ro]

Oh, I think the obvious usage is with an assassin in the surprise round. Assassinate twice!

[hymer]

Oh, I think the obvious usage is with an assassin in the surprise round. Assassinate twice!

I agree with this. If the DM lets the rogue sneak attack with a reaction as well as during their usual turn, this goes for just about any level.
But I think the main gorgeousness here is to have a third level fighter forego their attack for the round and give it to their much more powerful ally. A DM could have some sort of giant have a halfling sidekick and keep him in his pocket, throwing pebbles at the enemy, e.g.

[Rilak]

I agree with this. If the DM lets the rogue sneak attack with a reaction as well as during their usual turn, this goes for just about any level.

It is not stated anywhere when "once per turn" resets: start of the round or start of your turn (or if these abilities only apply on your own turn, or if they apply on anyone's turn).

If it resets at the start of your turn and you go before the Rogue in initative: make the Rogue SA before his own turn. If this is a surprise round and he is an Assassin, you scored a bonus crit SA (the Rogue needs to start combat wielding a thrown or ranged weapon).

Otherwise, you can still use it to make the Rogue get an extra attack if he missed all of his attacks.

Edit: If it resets at the start of a round, you can make the Rogue SA before his own turn starts. If he has access to spellcasting, he can cast a spell instead of attack since he already used his SA for the turn.

[hymer]

It is not stated anywhere when "once per turn" resets: start of the round or start of your turn (or if these abilities only apply on your own turn, or if they apply on anyone's turn).

If it resets at the start of your turn and you go before the Rogue in initative: make the Rogue SA before his own turn. If this is a surprise round and he is an Assassin, you scored a bonus crit SA (the Rogue needs to start combat wielding a thrown or ranged weapon).

Otherwise, you can still use it to make the Rogue get an extra attack if he missed all of his attacks.

There have been tweets to the effect that rogues can sneak attack with their action and then again with their reaction, but these were flavoured as personal interpretations, not rules clarifications. So it'll vary. But yes, the last bit is right, if the rogue goes before the fighter, it's a good way to get a sneak attack in if the rogue missed a shot (and if the DM will let it happen - sneak attacks have to happen during the rogue's turn according to RAW, so depending on how that's interpreted... I miss certainty.)

Edit: No, not during their turn, never mind.

[HasLogic]

It is not stated anywhere when "once per turn" resets: start of the round or start of your turn (or if these abilities only apply on your own turn, or if they apply on anyone's turn).

If it resets at the start of your turn and you go before the Rogue in initative: make the Rogue SA before his own turn. If this is a surprise round and he is an Assassin, you scored a bonus crit SA (the Rogue needs to start combat wielding a thrown or ranged weapon).

Otherwise, you can still use it to make the Rogue get an extra attack if he missed all of his attacks.

Edit: If it resets at the start of a round, you can make the Rogue SA before his own turn starts. If he has access to spellcasting, he can cast a spell instead of attack since he already used his SA for the turn.

also is it stated that a turn is the same thing as a round?

[hymer]

also is it stated that a turn is the same thing as a round?

Clear definition of a game term? You must be new to 5th. :smallwink:

[pwykersotz]

Clear definition of a game term? You must be new to 5th. :smallwink:

It's clearly defined alright.


A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world. During a round, each participant in a battle takes a turn.

There's other relevant quotes as well, but I don't want to quote half the page. A turn is your slice of a round. By RAW it works. By the tweets it works. By balance it seems to work, I've not heard of any combos that turn this abusable. And by my own personal interpretation, it works because yeah, letting your guard down and allowing an opportunity attack by a rogue should fluff-wise count as being sneak attacked.

[hymer]

@ pwykersotz: Sure. The problem I was (jokingly) referring to here is the difference between what's been tweeted and what's in the book. But you're right, we should stick to RAW on forums and DM decisions in the game, merely bringing up the tweets as suggestions on rules interpretations. The three will probably only correspond to each other now and again.

[pwykersotz]

@ pwykersotz: Sure. The problem I was (jokingly) referring to here is the difference between what's been tweeted and what's in the book. But you're right, we should stick to RAW on forums and DM decisions in the game, merely bringing up the tweets as suggestions on rules interpretations. The three will probably only correspond to each other now and again.

Apologies, didn't mean to step on your joke. :smallredface:

I was more replying to HasLogic, but yours was the latest post in the chain so I responded to it instead.

[hymer]

Apologies, didn't mean to step on your joke. :smallredface:

I was more replying to HasLogic, but yours was the latest post in the chain so I responded to it instead.

No worries. Your post was more helpful than mine anyway.

[LtDarien]

Do people think the Rogue can't sneak attack multiple times per round?

It clearly states that you can sneak attack once per turn. Everybody in combat get's their own turn. If the rogue could somehow get an attack on each combatant's turn, he could sneak attack on each of those attacks (Currently that's not possible).

I didn't know there was ever any doubt.

[LtDarien]

Double Post

[eastmabl]

Do people think the Rogue can't sneak attack multiple times per round?

It clearly states that you can sneak attack once per turn. Everybody in combat get's their own turn. If the rogue could somehow get an attack on each combatant's turn, he could sneak attack on each of those attacks (Currently that's not possible).

I didn't know there was ever any doubt.

Without a mechanic for delaying your turn, a rogue may be placed into circumstances at the start of combat where he does not qualify for sneak attack damage but still qualify later, once NGOs companions Wade into combat. By granting the additional attack, you get a bite at the Sneak Attack apple.

Alternately, it is conceivable that the rogue did not use his sneak attack successfully in that round (attacks will miss in Bounded Accuracy), and Commander's Strike permits a second bite at the apple when it comes to sneak attack.

[charcoalninja]

If they wanted it to only be usible once per round they would have said so, like they did with Reactions. However they explicitly say once per turn, not once per rogue's turn, but once per turn. As long as there are turns happening the rogue if he could attack can apply sneak attack. This is at least one term and rule that survived from 4e.

[hymer]

If they wanted it to only be usible once per round they would have said so, like they did with Reactions. However they explicitly say once per turn, not once per rogue's turn, but once per turn. As long as there are turns happening the rogue if he could attack can apply sneak attack. This is at least one term and rule that survived from 4e.

Look at how carefully worded Legendary Actions are, and compare it to the Sneak Attack language. There is a strong case to be made that the Sneak Attack wording is ambiguous. It is adressed to the player, and could well be meant to mean 'once per your turn', just without spelling out what it assumes is obvious.
In any case, it is sufficiently ambiguous that people are debating it. You can't count on it working one way or another. You have to check with the DM in each case.

[LtDarien]

Look at how carefully worded Legendary Actions are, and compare it to the Sneak Attack language. There is a strong case to be made that the Sneak Attack wording is ambiguous. It is adressed to the player, and could well be meant to mean 'once per your turn', just without spelling out what it assumes is obvious.
In any case, it is sufficiently ambiguous that people are debating it. You can't count on it working one way or another. You have to check with the DM in each case.


Legendary Actions
A legendary creature can take a certain number of special actions—called legendary actions—outside its turn. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature’s turn. A legendary creature regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn. It isn’t required to use its legendary actions, and it can’t use legendary actions while incapacitated.

Sneak Attack
Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll.

I don't see any reason from the wording of Legendary Actions to think Sneak Attack is ambiguous, much less a 'strong case' as you put it. If anything it supports the notion that Sneak Attack can be used on other creatures' turns. The wording is exactly the same as is was in 4e, and there's no reason to suspect it works differently in 5e. The only ambiguity comes from people inserting words they think should be a part of the description, but aren't.

[hymer]

Then why is it needed to take such pains at describing the lair actions are on other peoples' turns if the 'once per enemy turn' would have been enough? Because the notion of 'once per turn' meaning 'once per everyone's turn' doesn't exactly leap to mind.

[LtDarien]

Because the Legendary actions only happen at the end of another creature's turn, not during. Normal reactions can happen during another creature's turn, Legendary Actions cannot.

[hymer]

I think we've made our points for anyone who blunder into this conversation.

[Snails]

Then why is it needed to take such pains at describing the lair actions are on other peoples' turns if the 'once per enemy turn' would have been enough? Because the notion of 'once per turn' meaning 'once per everyone's turn' doesn't exactly leap to mind.

That hints the opposite. That there is no hard theoretical limit to Sneak Attacks, 'cuz "once per turn" = "once per each and every person's turn". And I would disagree with that interpretation. I think that is not in the spirit of 5e.

There are some rare corner cases where the Rogue will get an extra Sneak Attack, but, practically speaking, we are talking about one extra bite at the apple, which might happen before or after the Rogue's usual own turn during the turn. Right?

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

As a GM, I think that letting two players work together to let the rogue sneak attack multiple times is awesome.

The most useful thing about Commander's Strike is that it lets you grant an attack to an ally with higher single-attack damage but less attacks per round. Barbarians, rogues, and blade pact warlocks come to mind. You can also help an ally who has a buff like elemental weapon. But that's not the best thing. With some collaboration you can work together with the other players to build characters who are absolutely monstrous when they work together. Just thinking about it, you could have the rogue trip someone for advantage, have the wizard cast elemental weapon on the cleric's maul, have the cleric cast divine favor, and now when you use Commander's Strike the cleric is doing more damage than you are. If nobody in your party can do more damage than you can in a single attack, then you might want to skip this particular maneuver.

Looking over the options, I think that your best Commander's Strike buddy is anybody with the Great Weapon Master feat. Have the two of you stand next to the same target, use your first attack to Trip Attack the opponent, and then let the other guy wallop them with advantage off-turn before they can do anything about it. You don't need the Great Weapon Master feat because you're going to be dumping all of your ability score increases into Strength, for general usefulness in combat and a high Trip Attack DC.

But it also lets you project attacks at range, channeling them through an ally standing next to a high-priority target that you're not currently standing next to because you're wading through mooks. Did the hobgoblin warleader get knocked prone by grease? No need to walk over there, you're already up to your ears in goblin stabbers and need to keep them off of the party's wizard. Just give a bonus attack to whoever's standing next to the warleader while you keep cleaving through your own problems.

[illyrus]

I saw it as useful when you currently have a debuff on you but can still take an attack and bonus action. You're currently restrained and out of range of the enemy, have a buddy attack in your stead. Your weapon will not affect the enemy but your buddy has one that will, commander's strike etc.