Is Bard a better spellcaster than Sorcerer?

[Segev]

This seems counter-intuitive from the supposed themes of the classes, but the Bard has the same spells/day as the Sorcerer, gets all the way up to 9th level spells, and has 7 more spells known by level 20 (starting with 2x the spells known at level 1), 6 of which (chosen at levels 10, 14, and 18) can be from any class list. The Sorcerer has exclusive access to metamagic, and can use spell points for metamagic or for extra spell slots (but only up to 5th level), but their spell list is actually rather lackluster compared to that of the Bard, in my opinion, and that's before the Bard can decide he wants spells from some other list for flavor.

If you want to play the spellcaster who has innate knowledge and talent, it strikes me that Bard is just plain better. Am I missing something? Did they screw up and make the Sorcerer too limited or forget to make it better again after they got through designing the Bard as a full caster?

Something just seems very wrong with this, to me. What am I not seeing?

[Eslin]

Sorcerer is a better blaster, bard has more generalist spellcasting. Seems fine to me.

[Segev]

Probably my 3e experience talking, but the sorcerer being merely a blaster feels very narrow for that class, to me. Sorcery has never been, in myth and legend, simple direct blasting. I mean, it's often included, but the sorcerer is usually mystical and magical, not just fiery or icy.

Is the Sorcerer really all that superior a blaster, too?

Is that the design intent? Sorcerer's are just blasters?

What does that make Warlocks, who have Eldritch Blast as a cantrip, now?

[MeeposFire]

Probably my 3e experience talking, but the sorcerer being merely a blaster feels very narrow for that class, to me. Sorcery has never been, in myth and legend, simple direct blasting. I mean, it's often included, but the sorcerer is usually mystical and magical, not just fiery or icy.

Is the Sorcerer really all that superior a blaster, too?

Is that the design intent? Sorcerer's are just blasters?

What does that make Warlocks, who have Eldritch Blast as a cantrip, now?

Funny you mention myth and legend considering that the sorcerer class that has ever been in D&D has nothing to do with any of those (or at least no more than any other caster in the game does). As for sorc blasting they have always been good at blasting the only reason it is not more well known is that blasting was relatively poor in 3e due to a bunch of factors. If you look at other editionsof D&D blasting sorcs were or would have been very good.

[Eslin]

Probably my 3e experience talking, but the sorcerer being merely a blaster feels very narrow for that class, to me. Sorcery has never been, in myth and legend, simple direct blasting. I mean, it's often included, but the sorcerer is usually mystical and magical, not just fiery or icy.

Is the Sorcerer really all that superior a blaster, too?

Is that the design intent? Sorcerer's are just blasters?

What does that make Warlocks, who have Eldritch Blast as a cantrip, now?

Yes, sorcerers are blasters. They were intended to be so in 3.5, but in 3.5 blasting itself sucked. In 4e they were straight blasters, and now in 5e they continue to be blasters. In 5e they get access to a huge suite of blasting spells and a bunch of metamagic to improve their blasting, blast blast blast.

Regarding what that makes warlocks - a two level dip before taking another eighteen in sorcerer, usually. Warlock 2/sorcerer x has fantastic sustained and burst damage, and is pretty much hands down the best blaster in the game. Other uses for warlock include a 3-4 level dip to give melee builds (often with bard or paladin in them) extra melee damage, great AoOs and a reliable ranged weapon, as short dip for a variety of other reasons (telepathy, hex, dark one's blessing) or as a full warlock, which while lacking the pure power or versatility of the other full casters has a bunch of really interesting class features and invocations plus reusable spell slots.

[Townopolis]

Short answer: no

Long answer:

It basically boils down to metamagic making sorcerers the best around at what spells they do have. They can use metamagic to counterspell other casters at a range where the other caster can't counterspell the sorcerer. They can twin concentration spells, making them really good buffers and controllers, if they want to. Sorcerer spellcasting centers around grabbing the most flexible/often-used spells and making them better than anyone else can. Sorcerers counterspell better than anyone, fireball better than anyone, cone of cold better than anyone, polymorph better than anyone, dominate better than anyone... you get the idea, and they have enough spells known to grab the mainstays of each major magical purview (except healing).

In contrast, wizards and bards have more spells, but would have to have the ideal spell for any given situation to out-cast the sorcerer. For wizards, this is possible, but not quite for bards (but then bards get mad skills and the option to function as mini fighters, so they're fine).

[Eslin]

In contrast, wizards and bards have more spells, but would have to have the ideal spell for any given situation to out-cast the sorcerer. For wizards, this is possible, but not quite for bards (but then bards get mad skills and the option to function as mini fighters, so they're fine).

The bard way of tailoring spells to encounters is different to that of the wizard, but they still have one. Their basic features make them good jacks of all trades, and with spells you can choose to either specialise in one of those roles (take the all the best control spells from every class or all the best blasting or all the best combat or all the best utility etc) to become nearly as good as the best class at them or take pick the best spells from every class (for instance animate dead, find steed, contagion, swift quiver, banishing smite, polymorph, simulacrum, armour of agathys) to become a very good generalist.

[Ashrym]

That's like asking if a cleric is a better caster than a sorcerer. The answer is that they are different casters. A character only needs to know so many attack spells and defense spells before the rest become utility spells anyway. If a person wants to compare them even though they are different a person could say the bard is a better healer and the sorcerer is a better blaster.

Bard -- good variety of spells, more spells known, magical secrets make up a large portion of the total spells known for a customizable list. High on versatility and meant to lean closer to cleric roles in a party.

Sorcerer -- sorcerer points and metamagic, potentially more spells cast per day, modified spells for increased effectiveness; twin spell, quicken spell, and heighten spell are all crazy good for different reasons. More powerful offensive options and meant to be an offensive arcane spell caster.

I prefer playing bards but metamagic has it's moments.

[Shining Wrath]

I sometimes think Bards might be the most powerful 5e class.

Yes, they get more spell selection than Sorcerers. Against that set metamagic which allows the Sorcerer to effectively have 2 or 3 versions of each spell, and spell slot recovery using those draconic points.

And flight and energy resistance, or the Wild Magic which is usually a positive effect.

[Segev]

The reason I didn't ask about cleric v. sorcerer is largely that divine casters have always had that edge of being able to prepare anything they want. The fact that prepped casters now can usually prepare more spells in a day than any of the spontaneous casters ever know disturbs me, admittedly. Even with the absolute cap of 20 in any stat, that's 25 spells at 20th level (compared to 22 for the bard, who is the one with the most spells known of any spontaneous caster). ...and it occurs to me that "spontaneous" is not the right word for them anymore.

The bard's ability to grab literally any spell in the game (admittedly only 6 of them) from any list makes up for that, a lot.

The last thing is that somebody commented that Sorcerers make the best polymorphers...but they don't have True Polymorph or Shapechange on their spell list. So, while they have the 4th level polymorph, I don't think they'd ever be as good at it as a wizard or bard who wanted to master it. Still, that's not blasting, so if blasting's all they're meant to do...

I know they never were meant to be ultimately versatile, but it feels like they've been narrowed down too much to be anything but a very narrow combat schtick. Maybe that's the intention.

The answer, it seems, for my purposes in terms of what I think of when I think "sorcerer" (again, influenced heavily by my expectations from 3e), is that yes, bards are just better than sorcerers.

Though this raises another question: is blasting actually worthwhile in 5e, to the point where specializing in it makes you useful in ways that you weren't in 3e?

[Daishain]

Though this raises another question: is blasting actually worthwhile in 5e, to the point where specializing in it makes you useful in ways that you weren't in 3e?
The ability to deal raw damage does seem to be more important in this edition than in 3e. Furthermore, I would agree that specializing in it is not a bad option.

However, it still feels wrong to me. You're taking a spellcaster and having him fling magic around like a giant does with rocks. Effective perhaps, but rather disappointing.

[Eslin]

The ability to deal raw damage does seem to be more important in this edition than in 3e. Furthermore, I would agree that specializing in it is not a bad option.

However, it still feels wrong to me. You're taking a spellcaster and having him fling magic around like a giant does with rocks. Effective perhaps, but rather disappointing.

I wouldn't call it disappointing, we have other classes if you want subtlety. A sorcerer is someone with massive amounts of power who uses it to destroy stuff, that feels right to me, and I'm not sure what niche could be more appropriate.

[Demonic Spoon]

What makes the sorcerer more of a blaster than, say, a wizard?

[Eslin]

What makes the sorcerer more of a blaster than, say, a wizard?

Metamagic, mostly. The ability to quicken or twin spells is really good when you're trying to damage something, plus tides of chaos is a great way of making sure attack roll spells hit.

[Human Paragon 3]

Metamagic, mostly. The ability to quicken or twin spells is really good when you're trying to damage something, plus tides of chaos is a great way of making sure attack roll spells hit.

Sorcerers do make tasty blasters, but enchantments and illusions also love to be quickened and twinned. There's no reason you can't make sorcerers that are good at things other than blasting.

Quickened invisiblity then minor illusion of yourself elsewhere on the battlefield sounds good. Or twinned charm person, hitting multiple people with the same first-level slot. Upgrade to dominate later.

Careful Fear so you can spare your allies sounds good too.

[Demonic Spoon]

Metamagic, mostly. The ability to quicken or twin spells is really good when you're trying to damage something, plus tides of chaos is a great way of making sure attack roll spells hit.

There are tons of applications for that outside of blasting. Subtle spell charm person, for example, is probably the single best way to make use of that spell in a non-combat scenario.

[Segev]

Perhaps what will help me see the Sorcerer as useful again would be this: What sorts of characters - ignoring the fluff of the classes, and paying attention only to the crunch (assume you can refluff it however you need to) - are going to be best played as sorcerers, and could not be as well done with the Bard?

[Ashrym]

The reason I didn't ask about cleric v. sorcerer is largely that divine casters have always had that edge of being able to prepare anything they want. The fact that prepped casters now can usually prepare more spells in a day than any of the spontaneous casters ever know disturbs me, admittedly. Even with the absolute cap of 20 in any stat, that's 25 spells at 20th level (compared to 22 for the bard, who is the one with the most spells known of any spontaneous caster). ...and it occurs to me that "spontaneous" is not the right word for them anymore.

The bard's ability to grab literally any spell in the game (admittedly only 6 of them) from any list makes up for that, a lot.

The last thing is that somebody commented that Sorcerers make the best polymorphers...but they don't have True Polymorph or Shapechange on their spell list. So, while they have the 4th level polymorph, I don't think they'd ever be as good at it as a wizard or bard who wanted to master it. Still, that's not blasting, so if blasting's all they're meant to do...

I know they never were meant to be ultimately versatile, but it feels like they've been narrowed down too much to be anything but a very narrow combat schtick. Maybe that's the intention.

The answer, it seems, for my purposes in terms of what I think of when I think "sorcerer" (again, influenced heavily by my expectations from 3e), is that yes, bards are just better than sorcerers.

Though this raises another question: is blasting actually worthwhile in 5e, to the point where specializing in it makes you useful in ways that you weren't in 3e?

If you think wizards prepare a lot of spells you should take another look at clerics, paladins, and land circle druids. They all get additional free prepared spells from their domain, oath, or circle spells. The bard's magical secrets accounts for 27% of their total spells known in the end for valor bards, and 33% for lore bards. When 1 out of 3 spells is from any list it's more major than just a few spells. ;-)

If damage is what you are looking at then sorcerers walk all over bard because bards don't have any abilities to pump their damage spells, and have limited damage abilities to start with. They can add better damage spells but they'll never match a sorcerer. Twinning disintegrate, finger of death, or power word kill come to mind although quicken is cheaper on sorcery points and then the sorcerer can also use a cantrip for bonus damage. Sorcerer versatility is within the spells added throughout levels and in the sorcery points and metamagic. Damage is pretty much always useful.

[Ashrym]

Perhaps what will help me see the Sorcerer as useful again would be this: What sorts of characters - ignoring the fluff of the classes, and paying attention only to the crunch (assume you can refluff it however you need to) - are going to be best played as sorcerers, and could not be as well done with the Bard?

Blaster or enchanter are both better on sorcerers for sure.

[rlc]

In myth and legend, there usually isn't a differentiation between wizard/sorceror/warlock, other than in name only.

[Shining Wrath]

Perhaps what will help me see the Sorcerer as useful again would be this: What sorts of characters - ignoring the fluff of the classes, and paying attention only to the crunch (assume you can refluff it however you need to) - are going to be best played as sorcerers, and could not be as well done with the Bard?

Someone who flies above the battle and rains death upon their foes. Fly is now a concentration only spell, which makes one arrow a threat to drop you into the middle of the people wielding the sharp items. Draconic heritage sorcerers get wings at level 14 and can fly at will without concentration - which means Dispel Magic won't bring them down, either.

Since that is an iconic 3.5. spellcaster "win" button, I think it's worth mentioning - and a Bard has no way to emulate it without a DM giving them a flying carpet or the like.

Quicken alone is worth quite a bit - cast your best spell to set them up, and then a cantrip for dessert.

Also note that sorcerers alone among the classes get 6 cantrips, while bards get 4. At the end of a long day, any caster may be down to their cantrips - and at that point the sorcerer is the most flexible spellcaster on the field rather than the least.

Wild Magic looks like it could be hilarious fun, but I think as a DM I might want to go over the table of possible results, as being turned into a potted plant one spell out of 50 seems a bit much. On the average, the results are positive or neutral for the sorcerer.

EDIT: I think the sorcerer's native spell list is broader than that of the bard, which focuses a lot on utility spells - but then the bard gets to choose from anyone's spell list several times, which narrows or reverses the gap.

[Demonic Spoon]

Wild Magic looks like it could be hilarious fun, but I think as a DM I might want to go over the table of possible results, as being turned into a potted plant one spell out of 50 seems a bit much. On the average, the results are positive or neutral for the sorcerer.


You do not roll on the wild magic table every time you cast a spell. You roll a d20 and roll on the wild magic table if you get a 1. It's more like 1 time out of 1000 (non-cantrip) spell casts.

I like the fact that wild magic events are rare, but impactful when they do happen.

[Shining Wrath]

You do not roll on the wild magic table every time you cast a spell. You roll a d20 and roll on the wild magic table if you get a 1. It's more like 1 time out of 1000 (non-cantrip) spell casts.

I like the fact that wild magic events are rare, but impactful when they do happen.

I must have missed that in the PHB; I thought the rule was the DM could direct you to roll on the WM table any time you cast a spell.

[Demonic Spoon]

I must have missed that in the PHB; I thought the rule was the DM could direct you to roll on the WM table any time you cast a spell.


I believe the wording is that the DM can have you roll a d20 and then, roll a d100 if you rolled a 1.

So, the 1/1000 figure I listed above is if the DM wants you to do it every time you cast a spell, which...personally, I would, but the rules offer the flexibility to make it less common.


Also, remember that rolling on the Wild Surge table recharges Tides of Fate and I think some of the other class features.

[Shining Wrath]

I believe the wording is that the DM can have you roll a d20 and then, roll a d100 if you rolled a 1.

So, the 1/1000 figure I listed above is if the DM wants you to do it every time you cast a spell, which...personally, I would, but the rules offer the flexibility to make it less common.


Also, remember that rolling on the Wild Surge table recharges Tides of Fate and I think some of the other class features.

That increase class utility at the cost of great hilarity. :smallsigh:

[Easy_Lee]

As for sorc blasting they have always been good at blasting the only reason it is not more well known is that blasting was relatively poor in 3e due to a bunch of factors. If you look at other editionsof D&D blasting sorcs were or would have been very good.

Blasters in 3.5 were very good if built correctly. Look up the 3.5e mailman build. A properly built mailman did massive and consistent spell damage at all levels. I played with one, and she completely overshadowed the rest of the party including a master thrower rogue, a warblade, and a blade dancer, all high tier 4 or low tier 3 class choices.

[Angelic]

Been playing a Sorcerer, and it seems to me like they're quite powerful, probably the most powerful. Compared to the other casters, they're the best buffers, enchanters, and damage dealers. Twin spell is just amazing. Plus I can't wait until I'm 14 and can rain destruction everywhere from above! :smallwink:

[MeeposFire]

Blasters in 3.5 were very good if built correctly. Look up the 3.5e mailman build. A properly built mailman did massive and consistent spell damage at all levels. I played with one, and she completely overshadowed the rest of the party including a master thrower rogue, a warblade, and a blade dancer, all high tier 4 or low tier 3 class choices.

Thank you for making my point. You can make a decent blaster by putting forth a lot of effort and in addition it is still weaker than most other caster builds using the same level of optimization effort. The fact that the mailman overshadows those other classes is just another example of how a tier 2 class can use the weaker option and still be better than lower tiered classes.

You also realize that you are speaking of one build type that tries to leverage everything it can to make damage relevant because usually it is not the best way to go?

[Easy_Lee]

Thank you for making my point. You can make a decent blaster by putting forth a lot of effort and in addition it is still weaker than most other caster builds using the same level of optimization effort. The fact that the mailman overshadows those other classes is just another example of how a tier 2 class can use the weaker option and still be better than lower tiered classes.

You also realize that you are speaking of one build type that tries to leverage everything it can to make damage relevant because usually it is not the best way to go?

Totally. A ray-casting build could stack a stupid amount of negative levels on nearly every monster in the PHB in one round, then watch his friends kill it. Shadowcraft mages created real illusions of other spells, and eventually were casting wish for free. And those aren't even close to the most broken tier 1s. Saves in 3.5 were broken, and the core wizard could target any monster's lowest save with the right spell, ending encounters outright.

Saying blasters were weak in 3.5 is misleading; it would be more accurate to say that dealing damage at all in 3.5 was a weak option. But when you wanted to deal the damage that someone needed to deal, "deliver the mail" so to speak, no build I know of did it better than the mailman.

[MeeposFire]

Totally. A ray-casting build could stack a stupid amount of negative levels on nearly every monster in the PHB in one round, then watch his friends kill it. Shadowcraft mages created real illusions of other spells, and eventually were casting wish for free. And those aren't even close to the most broken tier 1s. Saves in 3.5 were broken, and the core wizard could target any monster's lowest save with the right spell, ending encounters outright.

Saying blasters were weak in 3.5 is misleading; it would be more accurate to say that dealing damage at all in 3.5 was a weak option. But when you wanted to deal the damage that someone needed to deal, "deliver the mail" so to speak, no build I know of did it better than the mailman.

This part is saying what I was saying which was that blasting is the relatively weak option for a caster. You can make one that is effective but it is still less effective than many other caster options you could be doing.

[Ashrym]

Someone who flies above the battle and rains death upon their foes. Fly is now a concentration only spell, which makes one arrow a threat to drop you into the middle of the people wielding the sharp items. Draconic heritage sorcerers get wings at level 14 and can fly at will without concentration - which means Dispel Magic won't bring them down, either.

Since that is an iconic 3.5. spellcaster "win" button, I think it's worth mentioning - and a Bard has no way to emulate it without a DM giving them a flying carpet or the like.

Quicken alone is worth quite a bit - cast your best spell to set them up, and then a cantrip for dessert.

Also note that sorcerers alone among the classes get 6 cantrips, while bards get 4. At the end of a long day, any caster may be down to their cantrips - and at that point the sorcerer is the most flexible spellcaster on the field rather than the least.

Wild Magic looks like it could be hilarious fun, but I think as a DM I might want to go over the table of possible results, as being turned into a potted plant one spell out of 50 seems a bit much. On the average, the results are positive or neutral for the sorcerer.

EDIT: I think the sorcerer's native spell list is broader than that of the bard, which focuses a lot on utility spells - but then the bard gets to choose from anyone's spell list several times, which narrows or reverses the gap.

Flying less "I win" now because ranged weapons tend to have longer range than spells do. It can also be done with a flying mount, even if it takes a true polymorph spell to do it. ;)

[T.G. Oskar]

Perhaps what will help me see the Sorcerer as useful again would be this: What sorts of characters - ignoring the fluff of the classes, and paying attention only to the crunch (assume you can refluff it however you need to) - are going to be best played as sorcerers, and could not be as well done with the Bard?

May I do a counter-statement?

Who do you think will do a better MacGyver; the Bard, or the Sorcerer?

I mention this, which may seem irrelevant, because it indicates a slight something that seems to avoid anyone who plays a Sorcerer: their power isn't on versatility, but on utility. Don't choose the spells that have limited applications; choose the ones that have multiple applications, then bend them through metamagic.

This links to the allegory in one way: it depends on how you perceive MacGyver. If you perceive his skill as versatility, then the Bard does better, because that's the Bard's thing: they're jacks of all trades, and judging by how they play, masters of a whole bunch of them. However, if you perceive MacGyver's approach to things from the statement of utility, then you can see him easily as a Sorcerer. Something that leads credence to MacGyver inclining towards utility over versatility is simple: while he always improvised with all things around him, there were ALWAYS things that were part of his toolkit. More likely than not, two of those would be a swiss-army knife (Victorinox or otherwise) and duct tape. No matter what, chances are one of the two will be part of his contraption.

The Sorcerer plays in a similar way. The choice of spells of a Sorcerer is essential: while they get an absurd number of cantrips, chances are one of them will be Prestidigitation, because it's just that darn useful. Most likely than not, the other cantrips will be attack cantrips because the Sorcerer can exploit their utility manifold. As for spells, they'll do best if they choose spells with a wide variety of uses; since their ability to replace spells is limited, chances are they'll need to keep one or two spells that can be used at almost any time. This is the problem of observing the Sorcerer as a blaster: while it offers a reason why this would be possible ("when all you have is a hammer,..."), it implies that the Sorcerer's choice of spells will be exclusively towards that, which breaks their power in terms of utility. A Sorcerer can be the ultimate blaster, but 90% of the times it'll use the same spell, because it's the most efficient spell. One of the things that indicates the focus on utility over versatility is that, as most purely spontaneous spellcasters (those who learn spells, rather than prepare them), they lack the ability to do ritual casting, which to most classes implies a degree of flexibility.

To magnify this utility, they take the few spells they know (compared to a Wizard) and alter them in one way or another. Hence, why they are the sole manifesters of Metamagic in this edition: rather than having access to all spells or allowing them to change them at a moment's notice to suit the situation, they take the most useful spell they have at their disposal at the moment, and alter it to make it specifically MORE useful.

Their Sorcerous Origin is what breaks some of the focus of the class, but in that regard, it also distinguishes them: by creating a subclass format that focuses on how the Sorcerer gained its powers, it provides a focus to their spellcasting. Draconic Sorcerers are best focused on blasting, because they can cast their blasting spells (Fireball, Lightning Bolt, etc.; also, attack cantrips) from an advantageous position no other spellcaster can boast, or at least without the same flexibility: on the sky. Wild Sorcerers are unpredictable, so it may seem odd to let them focus on spells with maximum utility...and in that regard, it's somewhat true; more than Draconic Sorcerers, they're eager to use brute force to solve the situation by throwing luck to the wind. However, when they do their homework, they can be devastating, as they can use luck to their advantage.

In any case: while more of an optimization approach, the Sorcerer and the Bard play in different terms. The Bard sacrifices some degree of spell flexibility (the ability to prepare spells) for another degree of spell flexibility (freedom of spell choices) AND versatility via mundane expertise (they get better weapon, armor and skill proficiencies, plus actual expertise). The Sorcerer has no spell flexibility whatsoever, and thus aims towards a smaller list of spells; that said, of those they have, they do best when they choose the spells with the most uses overall. Sometimes, that manifests in lots and lots of blasting, but sometimes, it manifests on clever use of spells.

Even then, because of the combination of flexibility in spells and versatility beyond spellcasting, the Bard (IMO) edges ahead; both are difficult to play, but it's harder to botch a Bard than botch a Sorcerer by narrowing their approach too far.

[Falka]

What makes the sorcerer more of a blaster than, say, a wizard?

4e pidgeonholded them into blasters. Also, in 3e it was better to build a Sorcerer as a blaster rather than focusing on utility. The Wizard could choose between spells, so he can offer a better solution for the encounter most of the time.

But in this edition you just need a few offensive spells that are also versatil (Chromatic Orb comes to mind) and you can "specialise" through metamagics.

[Demonicattorney]

One important thing to remember is that Sorcs are proficient in Con saves, meaning they can make concentration checks far easier than other Casters without spending feats to do so.

[Eigh7]

I know this thread is old as hell, but how's that with the 6 spells the bard can choose from any list?

I didn't find anything about that in my 3.5 player's handbook.

[sophontteks]

Just make a new thread.
Its a bard ability. They all get it at level 10 lore bards get it sooner.

[Citan]

This seems counter-intuitive from the supposed themes of the classes, but the Bard has the same spells/day as the Sorcerer, gets all the way up to 9th level spells, and has 7 more spells known by level 20 (starting with 2x the spells known at level 1), 6 of which (chosen at levels 10, 14, and 18) can be from any class list. The Sorcerer has exclusive access to metamagic, and can use spell points for metamagic or for extra spell slots (but only up to 5th level), but their spell list is actually rather lackluster compared to that of the Bard, in my opinion, and that's before the Bard can decide he wants spells from some other list for flavor.

If you want to play the spellcaster who has innate knowledge and talent, it strikes me that Bard is just plain better. Am I missing something? Did they screw up and make the Sorcerer too limited or forget to make it better again after they got through designing the Bard as a full caster?

Something just seems very wrong with this, to me. What am I not seeing?
Hi!
IMO the bolded phrase is enough to explain your impression.
You seem to associate "innate knowledge and talent" to the ability of being able to try and learn anything, as well as being a minimum upfront about it in public. Those are areas where indeed Bard beats everyone, it's in the DNA of the class.

As far as being a "better spellcaster"...

If you consider strictly spell-related features, Sorcerer is better. Obviously imo, and simply because most of Sorcerer features directly relate to magic, whereas Bard gets several great features that are unrelated (Bardic Inspiration and Expertise, Jack of All Trades having only an indirect effect on a few selected spells making him the best solely in countering magic).
Bard gets "only" spells from any list, but Sorcerer gets built-in Wish which, while obviously less interesting, is enough on non-fight days when you have one specific need.
He also gets the best action/resource economy of all casters barring only level 18+ Wizards on low-level spells, between metamagics that increase your slot efficiency and the ability to "rearrange" (at a cost) the level 1-5 slots when you have a specific strategy in mind for the day.

If you consider classes as a whole, then I say they play too differently to be really compared, with the only sure-thing being "Sorcerer is best played specialized" because of how one is built, while Bards tends to play as generalist simply because they have features that are usable in different situations, can cover some areas where only Divine Sorcerer can compete (healing) and can adapt to any party by shoring up lacking areas with their Magic Secrets.

TL;DR: "Is Bard a better spellcaster than Sorcerer"? In general, no. One could say with some assurance, however, that Bard is easier to play than Sorcerer. :)

[MrStabby]

I don't agree that sorcerer is best played specialised, I think the most effective sorcerers I have seen have been powerful generalists.

It is tempting to see something like the draconic sorcerer's bonuses to elemental damage and think that it must be used if you are going to use that sub-class. I tend to see abilities like that as very much a support ability; being able to throw out a twinned firebolt with Cha added to damage as your action is a great way to make your spell slots go a lot further. Using polymorph, hypnotic pattern, banishment etc. on other turns as needed. The sorcerer has enough great spells of many different roles on it's list that even with the sorcerer's limited selection you can cover a lot of circumstances. You blast when that is the best thing, you buff when you must and control the rest of the time.

[NaughtyTiger]

You do not roll on the wild magic table every time you cast a spell. You roll a d20 and roll on the wild magic table if you get a 1. It's more like 1 time out of 1000 (non-cantrip) spell casts.

No, per PHB, every time you cast a non-cantrip, you can roll it (DM discretion, but if your DM isn't doing it, he is cutting out your entire class feature) On a 1 (5%) roll on the table.
Additionally, you can roll it to regain your Tides of Chaos (DM discretion, best if used in the middle of combat, not on your turn)

[Unoriginal]

This thread is 4 years old.

[Aaron Underhand]

Quickened invisiblity then minor illusion of yourself elsewhere on the battlefield sounds good. .

This doesn't work. Even assuming you cast the illusion first to avoid breaking the invisibility a minor illusion cannot be of a creature. A simple illusion won't work because it's a spell, and both it and invisibility need concentration.

[Segev]

This doesn't work. Even assuming you cast the illusion first to avoid breaking the invisibility a minor illusion cannot be of a creature. A simple illusion won't work because it's a spell, and both it and invisibility need concentration.

Yeah, you'd need an illusory "pet" that's a major image cast from a level 6 spell slot. Sorcerers are stuck with their images being what they set them out as being, though they can still cause them to move around "naturally" as an action. (Illusionist wizards get silly with permanent-duration illusions at their disposal, thanks to Malleable Illusions, which is one of my favorite class features in the game.) That said, even with the "fixed" form of the illusion, a permanent illusion that a Sorcerer can create 1 or 2 of every day means quite the potential arsenal if he can keep them nearby enough to call upon.

[Waazraath]

I know this thread is old as hell, but how's that with the 6 spells the bard can choose from any list?

I didn't find anything about that in my 3.5 player's handbook.

Bolded for emphasis. Besides the thread necro: wrong boards?

[Specter]

We can't try to answer this question without defining what is 'spellcaster', or 'better'.

[Tanarii]

You do not roll on the wild magic table every time you cast a spell. You roll a d20 and roll on the wild magic table if you get a 1. It's more like 1 time out of 1000 (non-cantrip) spell casts.

I like the fact that wild magic events are rare, but impactful when they do happen.
Any wild mage worth her arcane focus wants to make a surge roll every time they cast a level 1 or higher spell. They're more beneficial than harmful, and most importantly they refresh Tirdes. It's all upside. So they'll have used Tides before every spell cast, and talked to their DM to make sure she rules that every spell cast after Tides always triggers a surge.

I used to make the mistake of think surges were bad, and didn't hand them out often. But after discussions on this forums, I switched to handing them out every time Tides has been used. Players love Wild Mages now. They're a very powerful subclass.

[Segev]

Any wild mage worth her arcane focus wants to make a surge roll every time they cast a level 1 or higher spell. They're more beneficial than harmful, and most importantly they refresh Tirdes. It's all upside. So they'll have used Tides before every spell cast, and talked to their DM to make sure she rules that every spell cast after Tides always triggers a surge.

I used to make the mistake of think surges were bad, and didn't hand them out often. But after discussions on this forums, I switched to handing them out every time Tides has been used. Players love Wild Mages now. They're a very powerful subclass.

I have oft wondered why this was left as a thing that technically only happens if the DM feels like it, rather than happening by default and only being cancelled if the DM house rules it or something. Why would Wild Surge be written this way?

[Citan]

I have oft wondered why this was left as a thing that technically only happens if the DM feels like it, rather than happening by default and only being cancelled if the DM house rules it or something. Why would Wild Surge be written this way?
Probably because having it happen systematically would be...
- Kinda cumbersome (more rolls every time you cast).
- More dangerous (especially at low levels).
- Less remarkable because predictable.

Having let it in DM hands gives to him the power to adjust depending on a significant number of factors, including how much player *and* party likes randomness, how harsh/surprising/risky they want their game to be and another kind of factor.

And anyways, since DM is DM, nobody prevents a player to ask for systematically if everyone is ok with it (of course, would be equally true in the opposite but that would be a clear houserule. In the current "way" it's just like adjusting an authorized slider). :)

[Mercurias]

In a party with a Lore Bard and a Sorceror, the Bard would handle the majority of the generalist casting (e.g., Detect Magic, Invisibility) while the Sorceror burns points to cast loads of fireballs or twinned Haste spells, etc.

Basically, Sorcerors have fewer spells per day while offering a series of niche, unique spellcasting advantages through Sorcery points. There are enough really good spells in the game you can tweak that it really doesn’t seem underpowered.

[Speely]

I feel like a Lore Bard is better at casting more spells and is more versatile, but a Sorcerer is better at actually casting spells. No one can touch the Sorcerer when it comes to maximizing a spell's effect. Also better blasters all day.

I play a Lore Bard, and my versatility is great, but I cannot pack the punch of a Sorcerer. Ever. It's a choice between more tools or more power. Both classes are great at what they do, imo.

[Tanarii]

I have oft wondered why this was left as a thing that technically only happens if the DM feels like it, rather than happening by default and only being cancelled if the DM house rules it or something. Why would Wild Surge be written this way?
They also could have put it in the hands of the player them, letting them decide when to trigger a wild surge to refresh Tides.

If I had to guess, I'd say that 'always happens' and 'players choice' don't feel Wild enough. Whereas 'DMs capricious whim' kinda does. :smallamused:

[PhantomSoul]

They also could have put it in the hands of the player them, letting them decide when to trigger a wild surge to refresh Tides.

If I had to guess, I'd say that 'always happens' and 'players choice' don't feel Wild enough. Whereas 'DMs capricious whim' kinda does. :smallamused:

You could also treat it like a Recharge (maybe only when castings spells of 1st level and higher or something like that if you want to make it non-obvious that it'll be refreshed for each combat).

[Citan]

I feel like a Lore Bard is better at casting more spells and is more versatile, but a Sorcerer is better at actually casting spells. No one can touch the Sorcerer when it comes to maximizing a spell's effect. Also better blasters all day.

I play a Lore Bard, and my versatility is great, but I cannot pack the punch of a Sorcerer. Ever. It's a choice between more tools or more power. Both classes are great at what they do, imo.
I like this way of putting it, nicely said. :)

[MaxWilson]

Flying less "I win" now because ranged weapons tend to have longer range than spells do. It can also be done with a flying mount, even if it takes a true polymorph spell to do it. ;)

Or Dimension Door + Feather Fall.

And in practice, Expeditious Retreat or a Phantom Steed is about as good as flying: melee monsters can't touch you but ranged monsters can.

Don't bring a knife to a gunfight. 5E is D&D: Gunfight Edition.

[NaughtyTiger]

They also could have put it in the hands of the player them, letting them decide when to trigger a wild surge to refresh Tides.

I am thinking of the table of pre-teens that I DM'ed for. If they had full control of Tides of Chaos, every round, in or out of combat, they would be trying for potted plant.
WotC wanted to keep the DM sane.

[Tanarii]

I am thinking of the table of pre-teens that I DM'ed for. If they had full control of Tides of Chaos, every round, in or out of combat, they would be trying for potted plant.
WotC wanted to keep the DM sane.Theyd still be limited by total number of 1st level spells. As I said, I now refresh it every single 1st level or higher spell cast. That means at mid levels (5-10) they're usually getting very close to the full 9-16 surges per adventuring day. Plus some double-surges because RAW you also still roll 1d20 for a surge.

Works for me, works for my sorcerer players, I heartily recommend it. But of course, YMMV.

[jaappleton]

Sorcerers are superior spell casters.

Bards are a better class.

Does that make sense at all, to anyone? I couldn’t find a better way to word it.

[Segev]

Sorcerers are superior spell casters.

Bards are a better class.

Does that make sense at all, to anyone? I couldn’t find a better way to word it.

You may want to expand on that, and justify the second claim. What makes Bard a better "class?"

[jaappleton]

You may want to expand on that, and justify the second claim. What makes Bard a better "class?"

Sorcs have exclusive access to Metamagic. Which is AWESOME, don't get me wrong. Its amazing. It makes the Sorcerer the best buffer / debuffer available, by Twinning things.

However... Bards get more.

More skills. Expertise. Magical Secrets. Bardic Inspiration, which (especially on a Lore Bard) can just flat-out negate enemy attacks (And its a short rest resource), and a just as good spell list. You miss out on things like Shield and Disintegrate, but you CAN get them if you want, and you have access to spells the Sorc doesn't.

Bards get more in their package.

[Theodoxus]

Except for on-demand damage. I nearly always dip another caster with bard. Sometimes cleric for sacred flame and heavy armor. Mostly Sorcerer for cantrips (sometimes free mage armor with draconic). Once with warlock for EB... but it's a bit of an investment to get good EB, and the slots don't stack, so you're not much better off than a EK or Paladin at that point.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Sorcerers are superior spell casters.

Bards are a better class.

Does that make sense at all, to anyone? I couldn’t find a better way to word it.
I completely agree with this sentiment. While a sorcerer can, in able hands, be a competent and powerful spellcaster in their own right, a bard does something that is innately more powerful in a game like D&D- she can fulfill multiple party roles at the same time.

A sorcerer can be a good blaster, and with some effort a respectable debuffer/buffer and also perform good arcane utility. But thanks to limited spells known, they can only realistically dabble in each of these areas if they want them all. They're probably going to specialize in one, as they kind of have to.

A bard can be a good healer/support, a good debuffer/buffer, a skill monkey, a face, perform arcane utility, even front line with a sword or back line with a bow reasonably well. A built-in preference for Charisma and Dexterity is about as strong a mix as you can get given the roles they perform in, too (ha, perform? Like, with an instrument? Bard? Ha...?). Especially since their less restricted spells known and fantastic class features allow them to do all of these things in the same build at the same time, competently. And, as is perhaps the most appropriate thing about the class, these things are actually strongest when in concert (LIKE WITH INSTRUMENTS! BARD! I'm sorry).

[Luccan]

Sorcerer's definitely get too few spells known. Once they run into a situation where their few spells don't apply, it doesn't matter they can cast it twice simultaneously or more often. You can select for, at most, two roles and utility probably shouldn't be one of them, since you get so few spells and they're your only way of being relevant in combat (unlike bards, clerics, and druids). Wizards, of course, can eventually get most spells they want and since they can ritual cast without preparing, don't have to worry about whether or not comprehend languages is worth it.

I think sorcerers should get a bonus spell known per spell level based on their origin. That sets them up with a total of 24 known by 20th level, which just passes bards, but is still fewer known than a wizard who never gets to scribe into their book and only picks up spells during level-up. Maybe an appropriately thematic cantrip as well.

[Zalabim]

Seeing as this thread is now more than half not four years old...


Theyd still be limited by total number of 1st level spells. As I said, I now refresh it every single 1st level or higher spell cast. That means at mid levels (5-10) they're usually getting very close to the full 9-16 surges per adventuring day. Plus some double-surges because RAW you also still roll 1d20 for a surge.

Works for me, works for my sorcerer players, I heartily recommend it. But of course, YMMV.

Errata actually adds that a wild surge can only happen once per turn, so there's no point in rolling 1d20 when you're already rolling a surge for Tides of Chaos. It does mean that Shield or Counterspell can trigger a surge on a separate turn still.

[Antarx]

A bard can cast ANY spell, and the use cutting words to force the enemy to fail his save. IMHO that's the best option for save or suck spells.
Just my two cents.

EDIT.
Sorry, I didn't noticed the thread necromancy. Failed my check, I suposse.

[Kadesh]

A bard can cast ANY spell, and the use cutting words to force the enemy to fail his save. IMHO that's the best option for save or suck spells.
Just my two cents.

EDIT.
Sorry, I didn't noticed the thread necromancy. Failed my check, I suposse.

You're also incorrect. Attack rolls and ability checks does not include saves.

[Dr. Cliché]

Take this how you want, but my personal experience of sorcerers is this: zzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZ

They have two pools of resources, both of which only recharge on a long-rest, and have to expend both at the same time in order not just be outright worse than a bard or wizard. This on top of having a dismal number of spells known and also missing a ton of spells from the wizard list.

In contrast, the Bard is as close as 5e gets to a Mary Sue class. So, he's a musician/entertainer who's basically a jack-of-all-trades. Okay, that seems reasonable. Oh, wait, he's also an expert and has expertise in as many skills as the Rogue. One would think that being an expert and being jack-of-all-trades were mutually-exclusive, but I guess the bard is just that special. Oh, and he's also a 9th level caster now. So I guess he's also an expert spellcaster as well. In fact, he's such an expert spellcaster that he can learn spells from any other class. Blimey. Warlocks sell their souls to dark entities and they don't get anything like that level of forbidden knowledge in return. If only they'd taken up the accordion instead.

TL:DR I consider the Sorcerer and the Bard to both be big messes as far as class design goes. However, the sorcerer is a mess in that it's severely anaemic in terms of features, known spells, spell lists etc. The bard is a mess in that it seems to have had a ton of extra features dumped on it - which certainly makes it the better of the two in that regard.

[sophontteks]

This thread is 4 years old, so you're responding to ghosts :smallbiggrin:

Sorcerers have subtle spell. Thats all they need to be awesome.

[Dr. Cliché]

This thread is 4 years old, so you're responding to ghosts :smallbiggrin:

Really? There seem to be a lot of responses from yesterday. :smallconfused:

[MrStabby]

This thread is 4 years old, so you're responding to ghosts :smallbiggrin:

Sorcerers have subtle spell. Thats all they need to be awesome.

Well people seem to be getting a lot out of it, I don't see a problem Indeed most people seem to be responding to live posters.

[Segev]

This thread is 4 years old, so you're responding to ghosts :smallbiggrin:I'm the OP, and I'm a necromancer, so if my ghosts are still getting responses, they tend to alert me. :smallwink:


Really? There seem to be a lot of responses from yesterday. :smallconfused:


Well people seem to be getting a lot out of it, I don't see a problem Indeed most people seem to be responding to live posters.I'm glad the thread is still useful to people. It certainly was useful for me to reread with a broader perspective on 5e than I had when I first posted it.


Sorcerers have subtle spell. Thats all they need to be awesome.Is it really that awesome? I mean, I can see it being useful, but awesome? What paradigms of sorcerer could you just not do better with any other class thanks to Subtle Spell?


Sorcerer strikes me as strongest when combined with other classes. Coffeelock is an obvious example. (Never really 'got' the Sorcadin build.) Though I will say that Draconic Sorcerer has mage armor permanently and for free (well, without having to pay a precious spell known, or an Invocation the way Warlocks do), as well as one of the most reliable at-will flight powers in the game. (Of course, a Broom of Flying is an Uncommon item, so at most 500 gp and months of work to make, or, with the better-conceived rules in Xanathar's, a reasonable encounter and 2 weeks + 200 gp. Or between 200 and 700 gp to buy, by Xanathar's buying items rules.)

But still, personal flight at will is pretty awesome, even at level 14. Especially since it's Concentration-free and can't be stolen from you.

[Tanarii]

Is it really that awesome? I mean, I can see it being useful, but awesome? What paradigms of sorcerer could you just not do better with any other class thanks to Subtle Spell?
It allows casting social manipulation spells without the other person knowing. Possibly until the spell ends, depending on the spell. That's amazing in the right kind of campaign.

[Dr. Cliché]

Is it really that awesome? I mean, I can see it being useful, but awesome? What paradigms of sorcerer could you just not do better with any other class thanks to Subtle Spell?

Yeah, it has its uses, but I certainly wouldn't describe it as 'awsome'. Especially since it's very limited in scope (in terms of which spells derive meaningful benefit from it).

Can be fun for general, consequence-free faffing around, I guess. Like the old trick of using Prestidigitation to make it look like a snooty noble has soiled his trousers in public.


as well as one of the most reliable at-will flight powers in the game. (Of course, a Broom of Flying is an Uncommon item, so at most 500 gp and months of work to make, or, with the better-conceived rules in Xanathar's, a reasonable encounter and 2 weeks + 200 gp. Or between 200 and 700 gp to buy, by Xanathar's buying items rules.)

But still, personal flight at will is pretty awesome, even at level 14. Especially since it's Concentration-free and can't be stolen from you.

I do like the at-will flight on Dragon Sorcerers and Divine Souls, but it just comes too late. By the time you get it, you'll have had access to the Fly spell for 9 levels. Many campaigns don't even reach lv14.

[Segev]

It allows casting social manipulation spells without the other person knowing. Possibly until the spell ends, depending on the spell. That's amazing in the right kind of campaign.There is that. Charm person can be amazingly hard to use when the target has any allies at all, since they can see you cast a spell. But for a social caster, is that enough to make Sorcerer a good class choice, or does it just make it a 3-level dip from another, better class for socializing (e.g. Bard)?


Yeah, it has its uses, but I certainly wouldn't describe it as 'awsome'. Especially since it's very limited in scope (in terms of which spells derive meaningful benefit from it).

Can be fun for general, consequence-free faffing around, I guess. Like the old trick of using Prestidigitation to make it look like a snooty noble has soiled his trousers in public. Ah, I tend to forget that one, but yes, that's certainly a possibility.

In 3e, you could pre-cast prestidigitation and use any of its effects for an hour. But I believe 5e does require a separate casting for each effect, so you're not getting away with that that easily.


I do like the at-will flight on Dragon Sorcerers and Divine Souls, but it just comes too late. By the time you get it, you'll have had access to the Fly spell for 9 levels. Many campaigns don't even reach lv14.Yeah, that is a frustrating bit. A lot of cool stuff unlocks at levels 13-15, and the fact that you may never get to play with them can be very much a downer.

[Citan]

Is it really that awesome? I mean, I can see it being useful, but awesome? What paradigms of sorcerer could you just not do better with any other class thanks to Subtle Spell?

- Casting spells from underwater (one of my players turned trivialized a sneak challenge like that).
- Being ensured that the spell you cast won't be counterspelled (which is a HUGE deal whenever you fight casters, which should be happening more and more frequently as you level).
- Being able to cast spells while being hidden (which also means that, whenever the spell effect does not originate from you, you won't get detected whether the spell has the intended effect or not, so you can set up ambushes/traps with much easier runaway plan if things don't go where you wanted).

Plus all the social manipulation shenanigans people evoked above that you can manage just from the fact people don't know, at best, that magic was casted, at worse, who casted it.

Simple example: one player in a game of mind was suspecting that the (custom) NPC they met was a heavy magic user, while he pretended not to be, because in a kingdom where magic was frowned upon. They couldn't openly cast Detect Magic or Dispel Magic without first being sure because that NPC was an important part of the story (close councelor of local king) and getting "against" him without a case would have proven dangerous.
He used Subtle Detect Magic, learned about a Transmutation aura around the guy, bet on Alter Self. Left things in current state to discuss with party on what to do this this information.
On a subsequent discussion in open crowd, openly told the king his counselor was someone that had been using magic to trick and manipulate him, used Subtle Dispel Magic, revealing NPC's true appearance. Obviously NPC accused party to be mages trying to frame him, and was close to winning king's trust again. A successful Subtle Suggestion on the king later ("this guy has been tricking you all along, he just made a stupid mistake and stopped magic early") paired with a highly successful Persuasion check from one player and a successful Subtle Counterspell when the NPC tried a Suggestion of his own gave an edge at decisive time.
Things went hectic after that. ^^
(Also, to be honest, there are a few things I did not manage well. For example, did not think at the time of a natural question for the king to ask: "how did you know he was a magic user"? Could have been hard for them to answer that one ^^).

Anyways... Subtle is not just for social little tricks. It's litterally a god-like ability (because, even those who believe in God and his influence have never seen/identified 'it').


There is that. Charm person can be amazingly hard to use when the target has any allies at all, since they can see you cast a spell. But for a social caster, is that enough to make Sorcerer a good class choice, or does it just make it a 3-level dip from another, better class for socializing (e.g. Bard)?

Honestly Sorcerer is mostly fine, with innate CHA, ability enhancing spells (especially Divine Soul with Bless but otherwise Enhance Ability is solid) and possibly Prodigy feat if you're inclined to.

For a social caster, Warlock even trumps Bard in that regard, as far as spellcasting goes.

But if what you aim for is a mix of mind-influence with reliable skill checks, then you won't find any better than Arcane Trickster 11 paired with three or more Sorcerer levels. Reliable Talent even trumps Lore Bard's Peerless Skill overall, although the latter still can give you better "peak" roll.

[sophontteks]

Subtle spell is far and away the best metamagic ability. Think of all the things you can do when you can cast a spell without anyone knowing.

Phantasmal force, for example.
-The target would only get a investigation save if they have some indication that its a spell most likely. They have none.
-His friends have no clue any hostile interaction has happened. All they know is that their friend is really freaking out. This will end encounters.
-Use the spell combined with something the npcs already fear and you've got them completely under your thumb.
-This is already an S tier spell. Subtle makes it SSS+++++

Thats my favorite spell. Illusions, charms, and enchantments all work just as welll too. Sorcerers have very few spells, but the ones they have are far, far more powerful, and its of all things subtle spell that really makes it for just 1(!) metamagic.

People like the flashy stuff like twin and quicken. Its too expensive. Subtle and empowered are the best metamagics.

[Segev]

Subtle spell is far and away the best metamagic ability. Think of all the things you can do when you can cast a spell without anyone knowing.

Phantasmal force, for example.
-The target would only get a investigation save if they have some indication that its a spell most likely. They have none.
-His friends have no clue any hostile interaction has happened. All they know is that their friend is really freaking out. This will end encounters.
-Use the spell combined with something the npcs already fear and you've got them completely under your thumb.
-This is already an S tier spell. Subtle makes it SSS+++++

Thats my favorite spell. Illusions, charms, and enchantments all work just as welll too. Sorcerers have very few spells, but the ones they have are far, far more powerful, and its of all things subtle spell that really makes it for just 1(!) metamagic.

People like the flashy stuff like twin and quicken. Its too expensive. Subtle and empowered are the best metamagics.

I'd love to hear some examples of how you've used phantasmal force. It seems one of the more limited illusions, to me. It doesn't interact well with the Illusionist class features, and little prevents victims from just moving out of the area if you don't use very limited subsets of illusions (e.g. a burning cage surrounding them).

[BlackRose]

I'd love to hear some examples of how you've used phantasmal force. It seems one of the more limited illusions, to me. It doesn't interact well with the Illusionist class features, and little prevents victims from just moving out of the area if you don't use very limited subsets of illusions (e.g. a burning cage surrounding them).

It's great because it only offers them one save, and it's an int save. They can investigate it if they wish, but more than likely that skill will be low and many illusions won't seem odd enough to warrant investigating unless they're familiar with spells. This is great because many creatures have low int saves and attribute save diversity is amazing.

- Treantmonk notes that a jar over the enemies head with teeth around the neck will effectively blind the person.
-I also like a cloud of acid vapor/darkness that follows the target. They will probably try to run away from the cloud which will prove impossible and allow some opportunity attacks(with advantage since the spell is blinding them).
-You can also just create a fighter similar to one already in your party to keep them occupied while you deal with their friends.
-Make the phantasmal phenomenon one of his sword coming alive and attacking him. He'll likely drop it and someone can kick it away.

Some more situational abilities can be applied too. If you're being tracked then use phantasmal image on the person hunting you of signs that you travelled in a different direction. Often times only one person in a party has any tracking skills so the tracker seeing things that others don't won't even seem all too weird. It'll only last a minute but it might be just the amount of time you need to escape.

The great thing about the spell is that it deals damage and it interacts with the target, making them think it's real. This gives it a lot more versatility and believability than a normal illusion at level 2 that won't hold up to casual scrutiny

[sophontteks]

I'd love to hear some examples of how you've used phantasmal force. It seems one of the more limited illusions, to me. It doesn't interact well with the Illusionist class features, and little prevents victims from just moving out of the area if you don't use very limited subsets of illusions (e.g. a burning cage surrounding them).
Its a full illusion that effects all senses and can be interacted with. You can literally make anything real to someone. Think outside the box of "How can I make this kill someone."

Its interaction with a wizard archtype is a non-factor.

Phantasmal force your papers.
Phantasmal force a ton of money.
Phantasmal force that ghost that everyone has feared.
Phantasmal force the item the person was searching for.
Phantasmal force that guy you accidently killed.
Phantasmal force someones lost child.
Phantasmal force Strahd von Zarovich.
Phantasmal force a higher authority figure.
Phantasmal force a second evil head on someone.
Phantasmal force a prostitute. That'll keep them busy.

Use it to prove a gods approval/disapproval through its effects. The person's visions prove it to everyone around them.

Use it to take someone out of the fight in a greusome illusionary effect. His companions watch him react and decide its not worth it.

Prove that you can bring spirits back from the dead. Everyone wants to see you so they too can be visited by their lost loved ones.

It sure helps that the spell can cause sensory effects like blindness and damage too.

The obvious idea is to make the phantasm something brutal, but it can be even better to make it subtle. BEES! You start an encounter with a guy being attacked by bees. They take damage every round and combat hasn't even started! Its just bees. They are doing 1d6 every 6 seconds and they have no reason to believe its you. Oh and they sting his eyes because why not?

But these are isolated examples. To make the modt of this spell you want to know your target and use it against them. This spell will allow you to pretty much own every social encounter with subtle spell backing it.

Its like suggestion on my bard. I use suggestion as an accessory to my diplomacy. I seduced a guard by suggesting he run away with me, and then playing off of his urge to run away with me in order to seduce him. The actual suggestion wasn't even my goal, it was just a means to achieve my goal.

[Strangways]

This seems counter-intuitive from the supposed themes of the classes, but the Bard has the same spells/day as the Sorcerer, gets all the way up to 9th level spells, and has 7 more spells known by level 20 (starting with 2x the spells known at level 1), 6 of which (chosen at levels 10, 14, and 18) can be from any class list. The Sorcerer has exclusive access to metamagic, and can use spell points for metamagic or for extra spell slots (but only up to 5th level), but their spell list is actually rather lackluster compared to that of the Bard, in my opinion, and that's before the Bard can decide he wants spells from some other list for flavor.

If you want to play the spellcaster who has innate knowledge and talent, it strikes me that Bard is just plain better. Am I missing something? Did they screw up and make the Sorcerer too limited or forget to make it better again after they got through designing the Bard as a full caster?

Something just seems very wrong with this, to me. What am I not seeing?

You may be underestimating how powerful metamagic is. A Bard is a more versatile spell caster, but a Sorcerer spells hit much harder. A Sorcerer with empowered metamagic can reroll damage dice. A Sorcerer with heightened metamagic can impose disadvantage on a saving throw. Slot for slot, a Sorcerer's spells will have a greater impact than a Bard's spells.

And a Draconic sorcerer eventually gets a built-in, no concentration fly speed. That's worth a lot.