Ranged - Rogue or Ranger

[Kaskos]

Hi Guys,

Having not played 5th ed before I have my first game coming up soon.
The majority of the party is sorted and working out the detailed side of their backgrounds - were all excited about the game and want to give suitable effort.

The issue I have currently is deciding between 2 classes.
I have decided Ranged attack is what our group needs so naturally veered towards Ranger but something about Rogue just seems to good to give up.
Race and all are debatable - Human for the Feat or other classes for +2 stat and... the list goes on.

Are ranged Rogues viable or should I just be sticking to Ranger or Fighter for using a bow?
Not quite sure how good or bad skills are in 5th but it would sure help to have the Rogue specifics in there.

As said, any help greatly received.

[Eslin]

Depends what you want to do.

Highest straight out ranged damage is warlock 2/sorcerer x

Best ranged utility is fighter, who can trip and disarm and do a variety of other maneuvers with bows

Rogue and bard are the best skill using bow users - rogues do great damage sneak attacking (though missing is punishing, since they only get one attack) and bards are the best with bows at mid levels mid level (4 attacks a round) plus get high level spells

Ranger is kind of inferior to the above choices

[Kaskos]

So we aren't gonna be having any multi classing going on yet.
Just sticking with single classes.

As for what I want the character to do, he hasn't even got a set role.
Our group is quite large so I think aside from Ranged I can do whatever I fancy.

Rogue for the sneak attack, ranger for the favoured enemy, bard for ? (I have read nothing on the bard)
Bard I literally have no clue on, I have not read the bard nor played one in previous additions.

Do you have any tips on how the ranged bard would go?

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Favored enemy doesnt actually mean a lot in this edition.

If Rogue is what's calling to you, go Rogue. They're perfectly fine ranged combatants.

[Yorrin]

@Ranger- the class is good for the first five levels, but then you want to get out of it (probably to rogue, actually). If multiclassing is not allowed and you plan to go higher than level 5 be wary of this one.

@Rogue- a solid class for ranged damage. Assassin has great damage potential, and of course Expertise makes you very versatile outside of combat.

@Bard- The two different archetypes play fairly differently. Valor is by far the more straightforward archer- pick up a longbow and the sharpshooter feat (or heavy crossbow and crossbow expert feat) and you're good to go. Lore doesn't get martial proficiency or extra attack, so you're best off with a light crossbow. In either case look to pick up some of the best ranger spells with your bonus spells. Bard archers take a little bit longer than some other builds to come into their full potential, but that's partly because they have a TON of potential.

[Eslin]

So we aren't gonna be having any multi classing going on yet.
Just sticking with single classes.

As for what I want the character to do, he hasn't even got a set role.
Our group is quite large so I think aside from Ranged I can do whatever I fancy.

Rogue for the sneak attack, ranger for the favoured enemy, bard for ? (I have read nothing on the bard)
Bard I literally have no clue on, I have not read the bard nor played one in previous additions.

Do you have any tips on how the ranged bard would go?

It'd go take valor bard, grab the best ranger spells like swift quiver and go to town, spend your skills and spells on other utility.

Multiclassing wise, that rules out fighter - battlemaster makes a great archer, but more than four levels of it is pointless.

[Kaskos]

I have just taken a little look through Bard and I am quite interested in taking a look at it actually.

If Bard was the choice.
Would I be better off going with Human and Feat (sharpshooter or the crossbow version)
Highest stat would be a 16Cha and a 15Dex.
Or maybe go with
Half Elf
Get extra skills.
17Cha and a 14 Dex.
Could even get some good use out of Halfling
Lightfoot could end up with 16 Cha, 16 Dex I think.
25' Movement of course.

[1of3]

You can go Elf Rogue for Rogue stuff with bow.

[Kaskos]

What are the views on race?

Is there a master race if I went Archer Bard?
Each have their bonuses - whether it be favourable stat bonuses, feats or racial abilities.

[edge2054]

Wood Elf rogue has been fun. The movement and hide bonuses let you find a good spot to snipe from.

[Eslin]

Regarding views on race - I have indeed heard tell that there are races other than feat human, but if there are I don't know why anyone would want to use them.

For an archer build, you may want to take 1-4 levels of fighter - levels one through four yield you +2 to attack rolls (1), an extra action every short rest (2), 4 instances of 1d8 plus taunt/knockback/disarm/whatever per short rest (3) and ability school bonus (4).

The problem is, that's the end to it - the rest of the fighter levels don't give you anywhere near that level of bang for your buck. So take them if you want martial ability with spellcasting on the side, and take pure bard if you want spellcasting with martial ability on the side.

[Kaskos]

As said, I cant look at multi classing currently so going anything but a straight class is currently not possible.

It seems from the advice people have given and the research I've done myself.
This seems to work:
Human
Bard (Not sure which college would be best)
Main Stats: Cha:16 Dex: 15
Feat: Sniper (or Crossbow Mastery)
Which bow is going to be decided from the college choice.
Skills are nice - even more so if going with College of Lore.

So not totally sure on College to take but adding spells to the mix sounds like it makes a pretty good archer.
That sum up better than a Ranged Ranger?

[Eslin]

Well, first off, I'd ask your DM why multiclassing isn't allowed - while multiclassing and feats are both optional, it's not like there's any good reason not to include them.

Single classed, the possibilities for ranged:

Rogues only get one attack per round, but have 3.5's sneak attack progression. An Assassin will give you amazing ambush damage, while an Arcane Trickster will net you better in and out of combat utility.

Warlocks don't use bows, but their use of eldritch blast often feels fairly similar. Assuming you took the invocations, you get an unlimited supply of 1-4 beams of 1d10+1d6+cha mod damage each (assuming you hexed, because why wouldn't you) based on your level with a 300ft ranged and 10ft knockback per beam that hits, on top of abilities from the spells/invocations/patron you took.

Rangers kind of got shafted this edition. The Beast Master's pet has to be CR 1/4 or lower and even with the ranger's proficiency added to everything quickly falls behind in terms of usefulness (plus you have to give up an attack to let it attack), while their spellcasting is a bit crap and their class features distinctly underwhelming. Hunters do have good aoe, though a warlock or bard can often outcompete by just nuking with spells and still have equally good ranged damage. Like fighter, they get +2 to attack rolls, which is nice, but unlike a fighter their class features are kind of ****ty (favoured enemy does **** all, for instance)

Fighters are powerhouses, great in terms of pure attack and defense, and while they have few sources of bonus damage apart from sharpshooter they get more of attacks than anyone except a swift quiver user. Battlemaster gives great utility (trip with bow, maneuver allies or grant them temporary hp), but gets about the same amount out of their level 3 feature that they do from every single other feature, which is why they're only really worth it if you're staying at low levels or multiclassing out. If you're staying with the class for the long haul, Eldritch Knight is the better option - the actual class features it gives you are pretty ass, but being able to boost yourself with spells like haste is well worth it.

Bards are the reason rangers are rated a lot lower - most of the ranger's best abilities are bound to their spellcasting, and bards can take those spells and use them better and more often. Swift quiver is a 5th level ranger spell, so rangers start getting it at level 17 and by 20 can cast it twice per day - whereas a bard can take it at level 10 and use it far more often. Until 10 a Valor bard feels like a more mage-y ranger, possessing better skills/spells/buffing but lacking the ranger's +2 and mediocre class features, so I wouldn't recommend it if support archer isn't your style. Past 10, they flat out outclass the ranger with both better spells and better attacks.

Champion and thief not mentioned because they really don't do anything interesting for archery.

[Rilak]

If there is no multiclassing, ranged Rogue is not very nice :( Neither is Ranger. A Ranger 5/Rogue 15 is nice (Horde Breaker, extra attack = 3 potential attacks). You do lose out on the best Rogue abilities, but you really need TWF for those to avoid losing sneak attack every so often.

For single-class ranged weapons, I would probably go Fighter.

[Demonic Spoon]

Anything you lose with a ranged rogue in not getting multiple attacks from TWF you gain back by not having to be in the face of the thing you're hitting, and being able to sneak attack at the start of combat without having to sneak up to someone's face.

[edge2054]

Regarding views on race - I have indeed heard tell that there are races other than feat human, but if there are I don't know why anyone would want to use them.

Darkvision is pretty handy on an archer. The rest of the woodelf package is nice too.

Frankly I'm leaning towards +2 Dex at level 4 on my wood elf rogue.

For a non-rogue archer sharpshooter is great but a non-human can grab it at four.

[hymer]

Anything you lose with a ranged rogue in not getting multiple attacks from TWF you gain back by not having to be in the face of the thing you're hitting, and being able to sneak attack at the start of combat without having to sneak up to someone's face.

Agreed. And it's a lot easier for the archer rogue to skulk in the shadows and Cunning Action stealth mid-combat for advantage on your next shot.


Darkvision is pretty handy on an archer. The rest of the woodelf package is nice too.

Frankly I'm leaning towards +2 Dex at level 4 on my wood elf rogue.

For a non-rogue archer sharpshooter is great but a non-human can grab it at four.

Proficiency with longbows before/without a martial dip is also pretty nice.

[Kaskos]

Would make it so much easier if there was a right answer and a wrong answer lol.

I really like the sound of the Bard.
Sounds like it can keep up with the Ranger in most ways (very early on) - other classes excel in their own ways.
They have ok DPS (using a bow)
They have spells as back up.
They also have buffs, debuffs etc.
They also have a lot of skills outside of combat too.

Just gotta think (and feel free to advise) What race?
Each has benefits as mentioned like Darkvision, plusses to dex. Halfling looks great for stat boosts.
Human gets a feat, Half Elves get more skills.

Feel free to race advise...

[Eslin]

Would make it so much easier if there was a right answer and a wrong answer lol.

I really like the sound of the Bard.
Sounds like it can keep up with the Ranger in most ways (very early on) - other classes excel in their own ways.
They have ok DPS (using a bow)
They have spells as back up.
They also have buffs, debuffs etc.
They also have a lot of skills outside of combat too.

Just gotta think (and feel free to advise) What race?
Each has benefits as mentioned like Darkvision, plusses to dex. Halfling looks great for stat boosts.
Human gets a feat, Half Elves get more skills.

Feel free to race advise...

Apart from the obvious tricks like be a werebear if you can get away with it (no downsides), half-elf or human sounds best for your concept. Keep in mind as a bard archer, the bow is mostly a substitute for your lack of good damaging cantrips for your first few levels. It's only when you get extra attack at 6 and swift quiver at 10 that it starts being good, rather than something to do when you don't have anything better.

[Theodoxus]

Rogue
Pros: sneak attack is easy to obtain if you've got a tanky person in the party. Sneak attack will out damage every other class's ranged abilities, bar none. You can go Arcane Trickster and maintain your archery, providing some decent utility to your combat prowess. You're SAD - only needing Dex (and Con obviously)
Cons: if you don't have a tanky person, or if they're into pushing, knocking prone and tripping (to grant themselves advantage) you're going to be very unhappy. Only one attack, if you miss, there goes all your damage potential that round. Without the Archery combat style, using the full potential of Sharpshooter will be a net negative until your Dex and Proficiency bonus are >5. (With point buy, and non-human, that's not until 8th level).

Ranger
Pros: consistent damage - Archery combat style, hunter's mark and colossus slayer provides very consistent damage, and with extra attack at 5th level, you're probably going to be hitting at least once a round. Like rogue, you're SAD - though you'll need a bit of Wisdom potentially, depending on what spells you pick up and use (HM doesn't require it, but others will). Arguably better spells than the Arcane Trickster for doing archery.
Cons: Not as much burst damage as the rogue. You'll be doing 2d8+1d6+Dex mod your entire career (and only the extra d8 when the monster is already wounded). Same issue with the tank as above (seriously, tell tanks to not knock folk over already!)

Fighter
Pros: Most attacks! Lowest damage! But, you can afford to use the Sharpshooter feat more often, as making more attacks mean more chances of hitting, even with -5 to the roll. Otherwise, you don't get much in the way of boosting your damage potential. Maneuvers will probably be your best bet, to add a bit of zing and special ability to your arrows. Heavy Armor means you get to look like those badass Gondoran Archers from LotR - so there's that. Also SAD, so yay!
Cons: There's that lowest damage thing, plus fewer skills, fewer out of combat shenanigans and you'll probably be expected to tank at some point (you're a fighter, that's what you DO!!!) I'd grab crossbow expert shortly after sharpshooter to make attacks without disadvantage within 5 feet...

Bard
Pros: You're a bard. You have amazing spells that don't really work with a bow, but that's ok, they're spells. You have great skills and abilities that help you overcome your combat deficiencies. Oh, and you're a bard.
Cons: You're a bard. Without being able to multiclass, there's absolutely nothing (until 10th level, when you can grab a decent ranger spell or two) that helps you be an archer. If you want to be a bard, be a bard. If you want to be an archer, be an archer. Trust me, you go bard, you'll quickly stop using your bow, as it's less effective than casting spells and supporting your party. Oh, and you're MAD - you'll need both Dex and Cha maxed out to make it work halfway decently, and you'll need Con to live... I would not choose this path...

Warlock
Pros: You're a warlock. You have better blasts than arrows. If you're wanting to be a Ranged nuker - this is probably the class for you. It's not an archer though.
Cons: Not an archer.


These are my personal feelings on the matter... I'm sure people will disagree - this is the internets, afterall.


Oh, races.

Human
Pros: Potential starting feat (if you can't use variant, don't pick it)
Cons: No darkvision, no useful additional abilities.

Halfling
Pros: +2 Dex! +1 Con (or Cha, if you're going rogue and your DM says you can hide behind larger folk in combat).
Cons: Small, so you're stuck using a short bow (or long bow at disad on every attack: hint - Do NOT do that!)

Gnome
Pros: +2 Int! (fantastic for Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight (don't do EK, it's less optimal than BM)), +1 Con or +1 Dex! (Hint, take the Dex)
Cons: Not much about the gnome is better than the halfling for archery. Both are small, but the Halfling has an extra dex point... plus that lightfoot potential hide thing (if going rogue) If Ranger (and you opt for the suboptimal BM) you can ride a pig or wolf...

Elf
Pros: +2 Dex! Can use a long bow if going rogue, so that's nice. +1 Int (AT or EK, again) or +1 Wis (eh?) or +1 Cha (evil!!!) Wood Elf is probably best, even if that Wis boon does very little for you. Moving faster is nice.
Cons: +1 Wis? Otherwise it depends on what class you picked. Elf is good for Ranger and Fighter, less good for Rogue (Dark Elf is ok for Bard, I guess, but evil!!!.

Half-Elf
Pros: +1 in two stats! Dex and Con baby! That's pretty nice, the other things will help - more skills? Yes please. Resistance to enchantments, immunity to sleep (the #1 annoying spell at low levels?) Yes please!
Cons: +2 Cha - less than helpful, but not overly detrimental. Unless you're going with Bard - in which case, why are you anything but a HElf? But you're not going bard, you're gonna be an archer!


Well, I hope that helps. :)

Other races are less optimal for archery builds....

[Eslin]

Bard
Pros: You're a bard. You have amazing spells that don't really work with a bow, but that's ok, they're spells. You have great skills and abilities that help you overcome your combat deficiencies. Oh, and you're a bard.
Cons: You're a bard. Without being able to multiclass, there's absolutely nothing (until 10th level, when you can grab a decent ranger spell or two) that helps you be an archer. If you want to be a bard, be a bard. If you want to be an archer, be an archer. Trust me, you go bard, you'll quickly stop using your bow, as it's less effective than casting spells and supporting your party. Oh, and you're MAD - you'll need both Dex and Cha maxed out to make it work halfway decently, and you'll need Con to live... I would not choose this path...
Other races are less optimal for archery builds....

You're leaving out the fact that a mid level bard is the best archer in the game - at level 10 you've got 4 attacks and if you feel like dropping some money on it you get a bonus 1d6 damage on all of them, and it's no more MAD than the ranger is. Of course, before then you're basically just using the bow as a better cantrip, but that's why I recommended it for mid to high levels.

1-9 you're a support caster with a bow for occasional damage, 10+ you're a machine gun. It's not the way I'd go about being an archer, but as the best in slot for half the game it's worth a mention.

[hymer]

Cons: +1 Wis?

I just wanted to quibble here: Don't forget that Perception is part of the arsenal of the sniper. You can't shoot people you can't find, and you prefer encounters to start with good distance between you and the enemy. Rogue snipers are likely to take expertise in Stealth and Perception. Finally, wisdom is a fairly common save.

[Kaskos]

Ergh.

Don't think I got any closer to deciding after all that.
Still the main three that interest but they all seem to bloom for their own reasons.

Then it gets to Races and that's another issue all over again.
Some fit with certain classes perfectly - still something to think about though.

[edge2054]

And it's a lot easier for the archer rogue to skulk in the shadows and Cunning Action stealth mid-combat for advantage on your next shot.


The bonus action dash on Cunning Action is really nice on an Archer too. Moving to negate cover, moving to cover, kiting, and of course, fleeing if someone tries to close with you :)

[Kaskos]

Is there any reason to not take a Wild Elf Rogue. for a Ranged character.
(Still not 100% set on Archetype but Assassin seems to be winning over the other 2 right now)

Movement is very important - they get 35' (compared to usual 30')
Dex +2 - Most important Rogue Stat
Wis +1 - Perception Boost among others.
Darkvision.
Longbow Prof
Mask of he Wild

The other which sounds favourable is Halfling:
Slight hit to movement - 25'
Dex: +2
Cha: +1 (for face character)

Am I going to be massively hit by not taking something like Sniper feat at start with Human race?

[edge2054]

Is there any reason to not take a Wild Elf Rogue. for a Ranged character.
(Still not 100% set on Archetype but Assassin seems to be winning over the other 2 right now)

Movement is very important - they get 35' (compared to usual 30')
Dex +2 - Most important Rogue Stat
Wis +1 - Perception Boost among others.
Darkvision.
Longbow Prof
Mask of he Wild

The other which sounds favourable is Halfling:
Slight hit to movement - 25'
Dex: +2
Cha: +1 (for face character)

No game reasons. If you're playing in FR Wood Elves can take a bit of finagling to make sense RP wise. (Reclusive, xenophobic race ftw!)



Am I going to be massively hit by not taking something like Sniper feat at start with Human race?

Sharpshooter doesn't appeal to me. With the 70ft movement speed (counting cunning action) I can negate cover pretty easily. The -5/+10 seems nice but on anything with decent AC I probably wouldn't use it, as a rogue I'm more concerned about consistently getting Sneak Attack every round. The sniping may see some use but the longbow already has a 150' short range which is generally enough for most encounters. If you really decide you want it you can always pick it up at level 4.

[Theodoxus]

Echoing edge here, I think the best feat for a human rogue is skulker, as it negates some of the issues of not having darkvision. Wood elf is probably the best if you're hopping around at the fringe of combat - especially if you have a melee guy (who isn't a polearm fighter) - to grant you constant sneak.

If you're doing a group character build, try to have synergy with all the different parts. It's less fun when you're building towards something specific and everyone else is picking classes and concepts that negate some of the appeal to being an archer. If you're all coming to the table with unknown variables, you might want to have a couple of different options - ie, Ranger will play nicer with other ranged characters if no one is going melee.

[Kaskos]

As a group we don't have much ranged at all.
We have someone who can range but he is wanting melee.
We have ALOT of melee.
A big heavy hitting front line.
As a wood elf rogue, I can rp being at the back on my own or up front scouting but from an game level I got the skills.
With a big front line I should have a constant supply of sneak attack damage. (I get it if enemy is adjacent to an ally right?)

I was just trying to work out a good build for a Ranged Rogue.
Sounds to me like Wild Elf fills some good slots.
I can always look at feats later.

As I see it, we have a big front line, I can sit in behind them and get sneak attack on every attack I do each round.... all 1 of those attacks.

But race and class seem to fit - that was my main question

[Grayson01]

Wood Elf Rouge is what I would go with for a high damage Archer. If you wanna specifically use the Bow for Damage.

The Darkvision is a great help
The LongBow Proff is good
The +2 Dex You don't need to worry about boosting your main Stat so you can take feats
Extra Movement
If you go Assassin you are greatly increasing your Damage chances ( I would take Alert for the +5 to Init is awesome for seeting up damage)

Bard is a good choice as well I was actually think of making an "arcane Archer" using Bard.

[ZeshinX]

What concept appeals to you more? Think of the general concept of each class (as you see them), and expand outward from there. Think of a fun character idea and design based on the role-play potential, since the roll-play will attend to itself.