Training

[Spacehamster]

Is it just me that thinks 250 days of training to learn to use a new tool is stupidly long? Understand the learning of a new language. Instead of making it a set number of days there should be a formula for it. Say if you have 10 int it takes 250 days as stated in the PHB and for every plus or minus modifier of int you remove or add 25 days. How do you guys think such a rule would work/make sense?

Spacehamster to infinity and beyond!

[1of3]

That could be interesting. Currently Int is rather weak, except for classes that use it.

I have not seen Training used at all by now.

[Sidmen]

Stupidly long?

You think that becoming a blacksmith, a carpenter, or alchemist takes less than 8 months? I don't care how smart you are, you aren't going to learn everything involved in picking locks and disabling traps with just a few weeks of effort.

So, no, I don't think it's stupidly long. It makes sense in both the simulationist case (these are complicated and involved skills) and in the gamist case (I don't want my wizard to be casually picking up new tool proficiencies every time we have downtime).

It works perfectly fine for long term campaigns where the PCs aren't pressured every minute of every day, and PCs probably shouldn't be picking up new tool proficiencies in short, fast-paced games.

[Spacehamster]

Stupidly long?

You think that becoming a blacksmith, a carpenter, or alchemist takes less than 8 months? I don't care how smart you are, you aren't going to learn everything involved in picking locks and disabling traps with just a few weeks of effort.

So, no, I don't think it's stupidly long. It makes sense in both the simulationist case (these are complicated and involved skills) and in the gamist case (I don't want my wizard to be casually picking up new tool proficiencies every time we have downtime).

It works perfectly fine for long term campaigns where the PCs aren't pressured every minute of every day, and PCs probably shouldn't be picking up new tool proficiencies in short, fast-paced games.

Well mister grumpy pants, you still learn things quicker if you are smart vs dumb. :)

[Sidmen]

Well mister grumpy pants, you still learn things quicker if you are smart vs dumb. :)

When it comes to physical skills (which tools are), no. No you don't. Smart people just tend to put in the effort to master the skill more quickly, while dumb people will tend to make excuses to slow the process down. That's really the only difference (I've taught dozens of people at my work - smart people who waste their energies take longer than dumb people who concentrate on the task).

If you're a DM and want to use a formula, I'd suggest using the Ability score that the tool usually pairs with. It's helpful to be smart (INT) when learning to be a navigator. But if you're learning to pick locks, it's far more useful to have the natural Dexterity.

[Aramis Rhett]

From one perspective, learning to "use" carpenters tools would seem to be easy, especially given the lack of power tools.
Example: 8 year old holds up hammer. "What's this do?" Papa replies "Drives nails and smashes fingers." Give the kid a few boards, a couple hundred nails, and a simple idea of something to build that will hold the childs attention, and he'll master the hammer in a week or so.
Same 8 year old holds up a screwdriver (probably not present in D&D, but mentioned for illustrative purposes) and says "What's this for?" Papa keeps silent, holds a screw to a board, applies steady pressure on the screw as he turns it clockwise, sinking it into the board. Kid masters screwdriver in 20 seconds.
Maybe not the best examples, but they will suit the purpose. As a tool set, carpenters tools taking 250 days to master doesn't make alot of sense to me. With that said, learning to apply to tools properly and use proven methods correctly instead of "hair-brained" dipsh*t ideas, is a different matter entirely.

[hymer]

From one perspective, learning to "use" carpenters tools would seem to be easy, especially given the lack of power tools.
Example: 8 year old holds up hammer. "What's this do?" Papa replies "Drives nails and smashes fingers." Give the kid a few boards, a couple hundred nails, and a simple idea of something to build that will hold the childs attention, and he'll master the hammer in a week or so.
Same 8 year old holds up a screwdriver (probably not present in D&D, but mentioned for illustrative purposes) and says "What's this for?" Papa keeps silent, holds a screw to a board, applies steady pressure on the screw as he turns it clockwise, sinking it into the board. Kid masters screwdriver in 20 seconds.
Maybe not the best examples, but they will suit the purpose. As a tool set, carpenters tools taking 250 days to master doesn't make alot of sense to me. With that said, learning to apply to tools properly and use proven methods correctly instead of "hair-brained" dipsh*t ideas, is a different matter entirely.

There's more to the proficiency than that. You can make a living with those tools once proficient, so you can design and evaluate carpentry too.
Oh, and screwdrivers were invented specifically for advanced armour. It should be in any campaign that features full plate. :smallsmile:

[Sidmen]

With that said, learning to apply to tools properly and use proven methods correctly instead of "hair-brained" dipsh*t ideas, is a different matter entirely.
The latter is what proficiency implies. Anyone can pick up a set of thieves tools and try to pick a lock with an Attribute check. People who have spent months developing the feel for various types of tumblers and springs are proficient enough to get a bonus on that check.

Give a kid a chisel and tell him to carve something. Even if he's good at drawing and artistic, that carving is going to be crap. Because the kid doesn't have the experience to know when a bit of wood is going to split under the pressure of a chisel and ruin the nose you were carving.

Similarly, I've made a table out of wood in my time. It's a perfectly functional table. I'm not a proficient carpenter. The table will never, not even remotely, be considered a good effort. Even after I made it so it stands level and reinforced the legs so they won't be knocked crooked, it's a pedestrian effort that any real woodworker would laugh at.

[Kerilstrasz]

well.. completely by a homebrewer's point of view..

add your highest & lowest(positive) ability modifiers..
add that number to the base 10..
the number you get lets name it Talent DC..
you roll each day of training a d20 without any mods on it in order to beat the talent DC..
if you win, you skip a day of training. if you roll a N1 you loose a day..

it is a bit complicated though..
i ll try it on my upcoming campaign..

[archaeo]

Personally, I think the training rules specifically and the downtime rules generally make it possible to really slow down the rush of a long campaign. It's still possible to have an OotS-style sprint from level 1 to 20, but giving a lot more room for your story to breathe opens up a lot of plot opportunities. As an incentive to slowing down the timescale, PCs get expanded chances for more skills, which is pretty neat.

[Abithrios]

One reason that it seems "stupidly long" is that there are no gradations between completely untrained and masters for many tools. I have forged 3 things in my entire life. My uncle does blacksmithing as a hobby. Some of his friends are amateur blacksmiths as well, with some of them much more skilled than him. He has seen professional blacksmiths who are much better than them. 5e says that I am not proficient, but the rest are equally capable smiths.